Time to turn the calendar over to 2023.

My biggest hope for this year - United stops sending CR2s and E145s to OKC and adds back the SFO nonstop.

Boston and Portland, please. And Detroit. No reason OKC should not have all of the hubs in America covered.

I feel like the AS success to SEA might mean a shot at PDX--would be nice to have that important west coast metro area. And SFO, of course, needs to come back. That is an even bigger hole out west than PDX! And out east, it would be nice to have BWI on WN back and BOS would be so great. I would think since the BOS catchment area is so large, a DL or AA nonstop would be very successful even year-round. And getting the DTW flight back would be helpful for small east coast destination connections. Of course, getting back flights lost during the last several years is an obvious priority.

What is left to resume SFO, DTW and BWI? When does Southwest start OKC-BNA?

My biggest wish for TUL in 2023 is to get Alaska service to SEA. And to resume the flights lost in 2020 (MSP, DTW, BWI, IAD, EWR) and of course also add a Bay Area nonstop.

I know this may not mean anything to anyone, but I have a brother and cousins that live in NYC proper. My brother lives in Brooklyn, my cousins live in Long Island. The AA direct flight from OKC to LaGuardia and vice versa has been a game changer for them. A lot of times, they would look for flights in DFW and then get a car and drive. Now, they book them at just the right time to where there is no savings to fly to DFW, they can fly straight in to OKC. My family flew into LGA the day before Thanksgiving and flew out the Monday after. Both flights were fully booked. My brother flew to OKC from LGA on 12/25 and flew back on 12/31, both flights fully booked. My cousin flew in from LGA on 12/27 and it was fully booked. She will be flying back on Wednesday morning and I will check to see if it is fully booked. I would love it if they increased to a few non-stops a day, but for now, I am ok with just the one.

I know this may not mean anything to anyone, but I have a brother and cousins that live in NYC proper. My brother lives in Brooklyn, my cousins live in Long Island. The AA direct flight from OKC to LaGuardia and vice versa has been a game changer for them. A lot of times, they would look for flights in DFW and then get a car and drive. Now, they book them at just the right time to where there is no savings to fly to DFW, they can fly straight in to OKC. My family flew into LGA the day before Thanksgiving and flew out the Monday after. Both flights were fully booked. My brother flew to OKC from LGA on 12/25 and flew back on 12/31, both flights fully booked. My cousin flew in from LGA on 12/27 and it was fully booked. She will be flying back on Wednesday morning and I will check to see if it is fully booked. I would love it if they increased to a few non-stops a day, but for now, I am ok with just the one.

No, it is exactly these stories that mean something to us all, that makes non-stops so valuable to a whole community. The more non-stops you have, the more your travel quality of life increases! Glad to hear these flights are fully booked. Hope they are outside of the busiest travel season of the year.

Out of curiosity, why do we have yearly aviation threads instead of just one continuous one? None of the other threads start over each year (that I've seen).

Out of curiosity, why do we have yearly aviation threads instead of just one continuous one? None of the other threads start over each year (that I've seen).

The weather one does, I only assume it is to keep the size and load in the site at a reasonable level, as this thread and the weather thread probably have the largest number of posts over time.

AA is the most valuable airline we have at OKC.

No one has consistently added better routes and frequency than them.

AA is the most valuable airline we have at OKC.

No one has consistently added better routes and frequency than them.

It's true. Just wish their quality was a bit better. Delta has been so nice to fly lately in my experience.

Boston and Portland, please. And Detroit. No reason OKC should not have all of the hubs in America covered. Again.

left off that KEY word. OKC did have ALL hubs in America covered in 2019.

Regarding SEA on AS, it used to do twice daily in 2019; that'd be great to get back or as was said - have one to Sea and one to PDX. I do agree we need OKC-SFO back on UA immediately. Time will tell.

I remember only 1 flight a day to Seattle. Regional planes first like E 190 then Alaska switched to A320 - B737.

Personal wishes OKC, flight to JFK for worldwide connection (although AA with DFW is great), Breeze coming back and a direct rotation to Cancun.

Happy new year !

It's true. Just wish their quality was a bit better. Delta has been so nice to fly lately in my experience.

I will second this opinion. We have really enjoyed the last two trips we took, which both were on Delta. We took United for our honeymoon, which wasn't terrible, except I don't like Houston. I always seem to get stuck in Houston overnight due to weather, so not United's fault, except of it being a hub for United...

Boston and Portland, please. And Detroit. No reason OKC should not have all of the hubs in America covered.

Delta did say that a big focus this year was to bring back service to their hubs this year... so we should see that again soon.

"The new year will also mark some big milestones for Delta. The airline plans to restore its core Atlanta, Detroit, and Minneapolis-St. Paul hubs to pre-pandemic capacity levels. According to executives, these hubs generate higher yields than its coastal hubs — Boston, Los Angeles, New York, and Seattle — where Delta focused its capacity recovery in 2022, thus next year’s capacity deployment is expected to generate outsized revenue growth. The airline’s core Salt Lake City hub has already recovered to pre-pandemic levels owing to the strength of leisure travel to outdoor-oriented destinations during the crisis."

https://airlineweekly.com/2022/12/delta-projects-profits-will-double-in-2023-on-healthy-return-of-business-travelers/?__hstc=207916688.95020db43a3a06df46f89596bb548133 .1672845824649.1672845824649.1672845824649.1&__hssc=207916688.5.1672845824650&__hsfp=620022347

It's been a long, LONG time since anything positive has happened, in terms of routes, for OKC. I wonder if the new Airport director is not as proactive in looking for new routes. Other airports are adding routes left and right, yet OKC has been stagnant, maybe even net negative in terms of perception and routes. Even with new gates. It is kind of sad.

For all the momentum this city has, the airport is an albatross around its neck.

The network planning department at any major airline does not know nor care who the airport director is. They receive hundreds of emails and phone calls a week from airports all over the country with their ground breaking proposals of nonstop service from Hays KS to Honolulu. The response is always the same: “thank you for that feedback, we will include it in our datasets and consider further expansion when the financial environment allows” the email then ends up in the Deleted folder like the other 300 emails that analyst received that week.

The airlines have vast amounts of data going back 50 years on passenger trends, demand, and profitability within their own network. They also subscribe to aggregate data firms that compile data from other airlines, cruise lines, hotels, rental cars, conventions, credit card loyalty signups (anonymous), credit card zip code (anonymous) at point of sale, and many other sources into overall demand trends. Trust me, the airlines know where people are flying from and to and how much they will pay for it. This is their business and they have gotten incredibly accurate in their financial predictions for a route. If it will make money they will operate it. The fruit tray from Norfolk airport and the cheese spread from Will Rogers at Christmas move the needle not one bit, but does provide some good interoffice snacking between emails about these exciting new routes from Amarillo.

The network planning department at any major airline does not know nor care who the airport director is. They receive hundreds of emails and phone calls a week from airports all over the country with their ground breaking proposals of nonstop service from Hays KS to Honolulu. The response is always the same: “thank you for that feedback, we will include it in our datasets and consider further expansion when the financial environment allows” the email then ends up in the Deleted folder like the other 300 emails that analyst received that week.

The airlines have vast amounts of data going back 50 years on passenger trends, demand, and profitability within their own network. They also subscribe to aggregate data firms that compile data from other airlines, cruise lines, hotels, rental cars, conventions, credit card loyalty signups (anonymous), credit card zip code (anonymous) at point of sale, and many other sources into overall demand trends. Trust me, the airlines know where people are flying from and to and how much they will pay for it. This is their business and they have gotten incredibly accurate in their financial predictions for a route. If it will make money they will operate it. The fruit tray from Norfolk airport and the cheese spread from Will Rogers at Christmas move the needle not one bit, but does provide some good interoffice snacking between emails about these exciting new routes from Amarillo.

I do think if an airport or city dangled millions of dollars in guarantees for a new route they would strongly consider it. I know there are instances of corporations subsidizing routes too.

When St. Louis finally got its first European nonstop in a decade last year, it was Lufthansa to Frankfurt and one reason was subsidies for the route on the part of several local companies with operations in Germany. I think they gave millions of dollars.

True. We have financial incentives to offer is a different type of email than “Hey American, we would really like a direct flight to BigCity USA”

Financial incentives at OKC historically have only been marketing assistance (a direct check to Ackerman McQueen to pay for radio spots and local TV ads) and some waived fees. Not enough to really lure a new carrier as that is pocket change in the profitability of a flight.

When St. Louis finally got its first European nonstop in a decade last year, it was Lufthansa to Frankfurt and one reason was subsidies for the route on the part of several local companies with operations in Germany. I think they gave millions of dollars.

How has this route done, by the way?

How has this route done, by the way?

I don't know, to be honest. I have had a small number of friends take the flight and they describe it as really great - to get to the heart of Europe without having to make a stop in New York or Chicago first, which is what we generally have to do in STL. But as for exact numbers, I'm not sure.

I don't know, to be honest. I have had a small number of friends take the flight and they describe it as really great - to get to the heart of Europe without having to make a stop in New York or Chicago first, which is what we generally have to do in STL. But as for exact numbers, I'm not sure.

Great option for connections across Europe and other parts of the world. I flew to South Africa last year through Frankfurt.

Not a great option from OKC/TUL though as you would have to recheck your bags if flying on Southwest. And STL is a further option for driving than DFW. It was nice when you could fly OKC-STL-LHR but those days are long past.

17807

Speaking of international flights, does anyone old enough have more insight in to how long the TWA flight from OKC to Paris lasted, or was it just a one time flight at the ribbon cutting of the terminal in 1965?

17807

Speaking of international flights, does anyone old enough have more insight in to how long the TWA flight from OKC to Paris lasted, or was it just a one time flight at the ribbon cutting of the terminal in 1965?

Please note that the flight was "one plane" service, not "non stop" service. That just meant you could stay on the same plane all the way to Paris instead of having to change planes when it stopped before continuing on.

The weather one does, I only assume it is to keep the size and load in the site at a reasonable level, as this thread and the weather thread probably have the largest number of posts over time.

I have doubts it would make that much difference, generally forum are built on top of a database. The number of posts for all years of aviation is pretty small for what any of the modern ones are designed to work with, and it is not that hard a query to only return the number of posts needed very efficiently. Also it is likely every post for the entire site is in the same data table anyway.

It makes sense to use this format as each year can be “archived”. The topics discussed are very dynamic: specific routes, aircraft types, schedules etc. and vary month to month and year to year. A topic on a building being constructed can only have one main construction phase where the bulk of all posts end up, and being a continuous process a single thread is easier to track for that.

How has this route done, by the way?

Just one nonstop a week on Fridays.

It's been a long, LONG time since anything positive has happened, in terms of routes, for OKC. I wonder if the new Airport director is not as proactive in looking for new routes. Other airports are adding routes left and right, yet OKC has been stagnant, maybe even net negative in terms of perception and routes. Even with new gates. It is kind of sad.

For all the momentum this city has, the airport is an albatross around its neck.

Both DL and AA added nonstops to NYC late last fall, so not a LONG time.

Well, against every fiber of my being, I've decided to make the move back to AA. I much prefer United, but the constant small RJ's to DEN/ORD/IAH and lack of
competitive flight options has forced me to switch with as much biz travel as I'm doing now. Sad day.

Both DL and AA added nonstops to NYC late last fall, so not a LONG time.

https://flyokc.com/american-airlines-announces-nonstop-service-new-york%E2%80%99s-laguardia-airport

Yeah late last fall...Delta piggy-backed off American announcing it pre-Covid lockdowns...

Just one nonstop a week on Fridays.

Actually, I looked this up and it appears to be running 3xweekly, Sun, Wed, and Fri on an A333. Hope it lasts. This is one of LH's smallest US nonstop markets, if not the smallest. The closest small-er nonstop city is AUS, but the rest of their US markets are big, big cities or smaller ones with hubs like CLT (which also has a big banking sector that matches up industry-wise with Frankfurt, a major European banking center). What a good get for STL.

Well, against every fiber of my being, I've decided to make the move back to AA. I much prefer United, but the constant small RJ's to DEN/ORD/IAH and lack of
competitive flight options has forced me to switch with as much biz travel as I'm doing now. Sad day.

I made the move a year ago to AA from Southwest. Haven't looked back. It's been great as the schedules are so much better as well as frequencies and destinations. Got to EXP within 8 months and about 80% of my flights out of OKC and to OKC have been upgraded.

I know this may not mean anything to anyone, but I have a brother and cousins that live in NYC proper. My brother lives in Brooklyn, my cousins live in Long Island. The AA direct flight from OKC to LaGuardia and vice versa has been a game changer for them. A lot of times, they would look for flights in DFW and then get a car and drive. Now, they book them at just the right time to where there is no savings to fly to DFW, they can fly straight in to OKC. My family flew into LGA the day before Thanksgiving and flew out the Monday after. Both flights were fully booked. My brother flew to OKC from LGA on 12/25 and flew back on 12/31, both flights fully booked. My cousin flew in from LGA on 12/27 and it was fully booked. She will be flying back on Wednesday morning and I will check to see if it is fully booked. I would love it if they increased to a few non-stops a day, but for now, I am ok with just the one.

Took the same OKC-LGA direct route to see family for Christmas on 12/21 and 12/29. Getting to/from LGA aside, it was very, very convenient. With no more direct United flights into EWR and Southwest ditching OKC-EWR entirely this is likely my new go-to for visiting home.

Good morning,

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/December%202022%20Enplanement.pdf

A bit short of 4 million but not too bad considering Covid was still an issue early in 2022.

2023 will see the return to normal level so over 4 million in OKC.

Good morning,

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/December%202022%20Enplanement.pdf

A bit short of 4 million but not too bad considering Covid was still an issue early in 2022.

2023 will see the return to normal level so over 4 million in OKC.

Southwest's meltdown probably hurt December a lot too I imagine. They had 73,000 passengers in October. Only 54,000 in December.

Good morning,

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/December%202022%20Enplanement.pdf

A bit short of 4 million but not too bad considering Covid was still an issue early in 2022.

2023 will see the return to normal level so over 4 million in OKC.

Given the loss of numerous routes (to major hubs, nonetheless), OKC might struggle again to get to 4 million (and in perpetuity until they are replaced).

Good morning,

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/December%202022%20Enplanement.pdf

A bit short of 4 million but not too bad considering Covid was still an issue early in 2022.

2023 will see the return to normal level so over 4 million in OKC.

Is the jump on Frontier anything to note about? 50% seems quite large.

Given the loss of numerous routes (to major hubs, nonetheless), OKC might struggle again to get to 4 million (and in perpetuity until they are replaced).

Lol. This is blatantly false. You just gonna ignore the 2nd half of this year that puts on pace for a record year in 2023?

Is the jump on Frontier anything to note about? 50% seems quite large.

Maybe people hopped on last-minute open Frontier seats when their Southwest flights were cancelled at the end of the year?

Not surprised about Allegiant dropping a bit since they cut their LAX route at some point last year/during covid. Good to see AS up double digits.

Lol. This is blatantly false. You just gonna ignore the 2nd half of this year that puts on pace for a record year in 2023?

Yeah, law of diminishing returns will kick in. Can only grow so much if you don't add routes. Maybe not drop this year, but there are quite a few people who used routes solely because they were new. And with a recession very likely coming, OKC might not increase their passenger rates. I hope I'm wrong, and will admit it if I am. But I see stagnant growth, if any, until something is done to add new routes or frequencies.

Is the jump on Frontier anything to note about? 50% seems quite large.

Good point and good for them. Maybe they added some rotations. I do not know how to check that though.

Frontier flies to Denver and Las Vegas from OKC at this time.

Good point and good for them. Maybe they added some rotations. I do not know how to check that though.

Frontier flies to Denver and Las Vegas from OKC at this time.

When did they drop MCO? Did WN's year-round service kill that?

Delta added nonstops from MEM-BOS and Louisville-BOS a few weeks ago. Wish we could have been included being such a similar market to both. Maybe one day. Source: https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new-dca-lga-bos-routes/

Delta added nonstops from MEM-BOS and Louisville-BOS a few weeks ago. Wish we could have been included being such a similar market to both. Maybe one day. Source: https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new-dca-lga-bos-routes/

Exactly...OKC will have stagnant growth, due to no new routes or frequencies.

Not true at all. With average load factors in the US around 85%, there is always room to grow in a market up to 10% before new routes are really necessary.

The airlines can sense this potential growth before they need to add a route. Growth can come in other forms via increased frequency to existing hubs or large gauge aircraft.

The sky is not falling. OKC has held on to some good adds over the past several years and has supported larger airplanes to several hubs. There’s your growth. The “sexy” route additions come every so often but the bulk of an airport’s growth in traffic is from trunk routes to existing hubs.

A year round, daily BOS-OKC route on a 76 seat jet would account for the capacity addition of 0.6% of the current capacity at OKC. Less than a percent — let’s cut back on the emotion.

Exactly...OKC will have stagnant growth, due to no new routes or frequencies.

Alaska hasn't added any new routes or frequencies since their inaugural OKC->SEA route, yet has seen tremendous growth to the point that they've upgraded from an E175 to a 737-900. Just upgrading aircraft can have a significant impact on numbers

Alaska hasn't added any new routes or frequencies since their inaugural OKC->SEA route, yet has seen tremendous growth to the point that they've upgraded from an E175 to a 737-900. Just upgrading aircraft can have a significant impact on numbers

I wonder how much Boeing contributes to those numbers. I would think a daily nonstop to SFO would do well starting on a E175. United would be preferred because of international connections but Alaska has a lot of domestic/Hawaii flights from SFO.

Surprised with all the aerospace industries at TUL that Alaska hasn’t tried a daily nonstop to SEA starting on a E175. Wichita, which also has a large aerospace sector with Spirit and Cessna among others, has a daily Alaska nonstop to SEA on a E175.

^ likely subsidized, as are many flights into Wichita.

I wonder how much Boeing contributes to those numbers. I would think a daily nonstop to SFO would do well starting on a E175. United would be preferred because of international connections but Alaska has a lot of domestic/Hawaii flights from SFO.

Surprised with all the aerospace industries at TUL that Alaska hasn’t tried a daily nonstop to SEA starting on a E175. Wichita, which also has a large aerospace sector with Spirit and Cessna among others, has a daily Alaska nonstop to SEA on a E175.

Boeing/aerospace contributes little to OKC-SEA. Post-pandemic travel to Alaska and the Pacific NW has expolded and leisure travelers make up the majority of bookings. As for SFO, UA had a N/S pre-Covid, it was full the few times I flew on it. But when China and much of the Orient closed or had significant retrictions, they eliminated that flight.

Boston and Portland, please. And Detroit. No reason OKC should not have all of the hubs in America covered.

Plenty of reasons. Airlines fly their planes where they return optimal income. If they determined there was enough demand and ROI to fly OKC-BOs vs. having that plane on another route, then they'd do it. It's not complicated.

Boeing/aerospace contributes little to OKC-SEA. Post-pandemic travel to Alaska and the Pacific NW has expolded and leisure travelers make up the majority of bookings. As for SFO, UA had a N/S pre-Covid, it was full the few times I flew on it. But when China and much of the Orient closed or had significant retrictions, they eliminated that flight.When I flew the SFO flights pre-Covid several times it was full or oversold. United currently has pitiful service from OKC. Sure, they may be deploying aircraft where they think they can make more money, but they have just given up on competing with AA in OKC for now and that's sad. They have more gates than AA for crying out loud! At least on the service they do have they should be running mainline, but even that is only RJs. As we were walking to our gate waaaaay at the end of terminal B in Denver on a CRJ-700 I was shocked at some of the cities that had mainline service from Denver. Cedar Rapids, IA, with barely 1M passengers a year, has mainline service to Denver. I guess I'm glad I'm throwing most of my business AA's way.

When I flew the SFO flights pre-Covid several times it was full or oversold. United currently has pitiful service from OKC. Sure, they may be deploying aircraft where they think they can make more money, but they have just given up on competing with AA in OKC for now and that's sad. They have more gates than AA for crying out loud! At least on the service they do have they should be running mainline, but even that is only RJs. As we were walking to our gate waaaaay at the end of terminal B in Denver on a CRJ-700 I was shocked at some of the cities that had mainline service from Denver. Cedar Rapids, IA, with barely 1M passengers a year, has mainline service to Denver. I guess I'm glad I'm throwing most of my business AA's way.

Trekking to/from the "stinger" gates at DEN where the RJ's park is such a pain.

Trekking to/from the "stinger" gates at DEN where the RJ's park is such a pain.

My hope is with the substantial infusion of new mainline aircraft United is expecting, we will see fewer UA CRJs and ER4s in OKC. My fingers are crossed as I would much prefer to stick with them over moving back to AA - far superior customer service.

Looking at flights to IAH in April and it appears United has reverted back to a no mainline, regional aircraft only approach. Just no love for OKC - AA and WN must be killing them here.

Looking at flights to IAH in April and it appears United has reverted back to a no mainline, regional aircraft only approach. Just no love for OKC - AA and WN must be killing them here.

I wonder how their prices compare to WN/Frontier to Denver, and AA/WN to ORD/MDW, and WN to HOU? When I search they are usually the most expensive. On a random long weekend in July to Chicago, for direct flights: AA was $468. WN was $396. United was $672.

So when you have cheaper options to the only 3 cities they go to it's probably not a surprise there are no mainlines.

That's why bringing back SFO makes so much sense for them. In their eyes why bring back EWR since AA/DL have directs to LGA now? Why bring back IAD when AA/WN have directs to DCA?

United's bread and butter is business travel that books within 3 weeks of departure date. They are usually the last to load firm schedules regarding aircraft type. As such they don't sell cheap fare buckets until they know what their actual capacity on a route will be. If you want a ticket now they'll sell you one, but it will likely be more expensive than if you book it 45 days out.

I wonder how their prices compare to WN/Frontier to Denver, and AA/WN to ORD/MDW, and WN to HOU? When I search they are usually the most expensive. On a random long weekend in July to Chicago, for direct flights: AA was $468. WN was $396. United was $672.

So when you have cheaper options to the only 3 cities they go to it's probably not a surprise there are no mainlines.

That's why bringing back SFO makes so much sense for them. In their eyes why bring back EWR since AA/DL have directs to LGA now? Why bring back IAD when AA/WN have directs to DCA?

Because EWR and IAD are UA's pirmary gateways to Europe & the Mideast, and EWR is more convenient to Penn Station, East Side/Lower Manhattan and Wall Street than LGA. And as Catch22 said, if you think booking a few months in advance will result in lower fares, airline pricing algorithms have changed, cheaper can often be 6 weeks or less, depending on the market. I fly 3 weeks a month and have seen this over the past couple of years.

Alaska hasn't added any new routes or frequencies since their inaugural OKC->SEA route, yet has seen tremendous growth to the point that they've upgraded from an E175 to a 737-900. Just upgrading aircraft can have a significant impact on numbers

This is great to hear. We are taking the OKC to SEA and then to YVR to take an Alaskan cruise in July. Then, we fly from Anchorage to SEA and then back to OKC. That OKC-SEA nonstop could do really well as a connection to NW Canada and Alaska.

sounds great. hope you planned a few days in YVR (Vancouver, Canada); it's worth the trip just to go there let a lone sail from there.