Interesting article about Canon and their private jet usage....

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/canoo-spent-double-its-annual-revenue-on-the-ceos-private-jet-in-2023/

Ya they are dead in the water in a year.

I don't think it will last *that* long.

I don't think it will last *that* long.

Ya I think you are right. Fidelity has a pretty poor outlook. I am assuming the reverse split was to stay on the exchange but not much left if they get taken of the NASDAQ

The narrow window they had is very quickly closing, and if they are playing around in the background with private jets then I guess it was all a ruse anyway. They need to put up or shut up in the biggest way. Nothing left to do at this point except actually produce some damn cars.

It may not matter much anyway even if they did lurch into heavy production - the market is shifting and cheaper EVs are quickly approaching the market from established players. Canoo is about to be a day late and a dollar short.

Don't forget the CEO is the one who bought the property and is leasing it back to the company after getting a sweetheart deal from the state.

As is often the case, a few people at the top will make out like bandits while investors lose everything.

Don't forget the CEO is the one who bought the property and is leasing it back to the company after getting a sweetheart deal from the state.

As is often the case, a few people at the top will make out like bandits while investors lose everything.

And he also owns the private jet company they use.

I hope the State of Oklahoma didn't buy the extended warranty on those few vehicles they purchased. May not be a company left to work on those vans. I guess the same thing goes with NASA.

I am in an industry that supports manufacturing. We have been inside the Canoo plant several times, since opening. There is literally NOTHING going on. Almost all assembly line production has halted. There are many high salary positions (engineering/maintenance/safety) employees that are literally being handed mops and brooms, just to stay productive while still getting a paycheck.

Any idea why the line has stopped?

Any idea why the line has stopped?

Likely because it appears Canoo has given up on any notions of being a going concern and now exist only to bill the investors and the state out of money. Building cars and tooling up would cost money —and executives could just pocket that money instead.

There has been conjecture that the few complete vehicles they have produced were not even assembled in OKC.

With fledgling public companies, you often never know the full truth because they lean very heavily on the fake-it-until-you-make-it strategy. The need to give the appearance they can start cranking out cars so they can get contracts and without the contracts they can't get the capital to produce cars... It's all very circular.

There has been conjecture that the few complete vehicles they have produced were not even assembled in OKC.

With fledgling public companies, you often never know the full truth because they lean very heavily on the fake-it-until-you-make-it strategy. The need to give the appearance they can start cranking out cars so they can get contracts and without the contracts they can't get the capital to produce cars... It's all very circular.

Elon musk has said that efficient mass production is the hardest thing. Its easier to throw out a 100 or 200 prototype vehicles.

Elon musk has said that efficient mass production is the hardest thing. Its easier to throw out a 100 or 200 prototype vehicles.

And even Tesla continues to have issues with quality control.

BTW, Hyundai just this week launched a brand new modular line of EV work vehicles, where a standard chassis and cab can accommodate all types of rear components, and the Koreans are absolutely killing it in the EV world.

There are some huge, sophisticated companies already cranking out hundreds of thousands of vehicles; I've said it before but I just don't see the market for Canoo. What purchasing agent is going to take a flyer on an EV startup when a bunch have already failed or are in the process (like Fisker) instead of going with Mercedes, Ford or Hyundai/Kia??

And even Tesla continues to have issues with quality control.

BTW, Hyundai just this week launched a brand new modular line of EV work vehicles, where a standard chassis and cab can accommodate all types of rear components, and the Koreans are absolutely killing it in the EV world.

There are some huge, sophisticated companies already cranking out hundreds of thousands of vehicles; I've said it before but I just don't see the market for Canoo. What purchasing agent is going to take a flyer on an EV startup when a bunch have already failed or are in the process (like Fisker) instead of going with Mercedes, Ford or Hyundai/Kia??

Yeah, and those Canoo vans don't seem very 'sexy' compared to what everyone else is producing. I guess they were trying to go after a work van type of niche.

It's too bad because I was actually pretty pumped to buy one of their personal vehicles whether it was the pickup truck, which I thought was extremely utilitarian or the 7-seater, which made me nostalgic for my aunt's old 1980 something station wagon where the thing sat 6 kids in the back facing one another. Good times in that car. I also thought the modular design and especially the battery would be about the best way you could bet on an affordable battery replacement in the future.

I think the design and concept were great. The execution has been lackluster.

And here Oklahoma sits again, hat in hand, willing to sell its soul to an employer to just pleas locate here when we can't just do the obvious stupid thing, i.e., invest in an educated workforce.

I think the window has closed. If they were actually producing at this point, I think they could still have a narrow shot, but if the plant isn't actually running at all like people are saying then it's over. I'm sure they'll continue to waste money and put out some flashy press releases, and maybe even break ground on a new facility in Pryor, but it's hopeless if they aren't up and running at this point. Like Pete said, the legacy manufacturers will eat them alive when they actually start producing for the American market. Just need some economical choices besides the super expensive giant trucks (eg Ford Lightning). Give me a basic, cheap, EV commuter car please. One that isn't full of spyware, won't explode in a collision, and can be controlled without a touch screen please.

It's too bad because I was actually pretty pumped to buy one of their personal vehicles whether it was the pickup truck, which I thought was extremely utilitarian or the 7-seater, which made me nostalgic for my aunt's old 1980 something station wagon where the thing sat 6 kids in the back facing one another. Good times in that car. I also thought the modular design and especially the battery would be about the best way you could bet on an affordable battery replacement in the future.

I think the design and concept were great. The execution has been lackluster.

And here Oklahoma sits again, hat in hand, willing to sell its soul to an employer to just pleas locate here when we can't just do the obvious stupid thing, i.e., invest in an educated workforce.

The obvious and super frustrating part is yes, 1000% turns out high quality education pays off and our nextdoor neighbor that we are so jealous of has understood that for a VERY long time and for some reason it has never rubbed off. Also, we absolutely lost a couple of larger deals (and this is not speculation it is fact) because of a political climate and legislation that is just flat out bad for business. I don't want to get in a right vs left kind of thing and I know it's not allowed here, but fact is, the larger the business, the more they will 100% require a legal climate that gives them the widest range of relocation options, available workers and talent they can get and the last 5-10 years have produced some laws on the books that large international companies just absolutely prohibit for relocation, and I know for a fact a couple of very large companies have just literally said that in clear terms.

I hire a lot of very high level CS engineers and EE's and it amazes me how flippant our government is to these segments and how little they understand that the cost of building a factory pales in comparison to the hassle and cost of securing the best of the best engineers. Oklahoma has got to get passed this "but we have cheap land" argument because in these spaces, if that's all you got, you got nothing.

The obvious and super frustrating part is yes, 1000% turns out high quality education pays off and our nextdoor neighbor that we are so jealous of has understood that for a VERY long time and for some reason it has never rubbed off. Also, we absolutely lost a couple of larger deals (and this is not speculation it is fact) because of a political climate and legislation that is just flat out bad for business. I don't want to get in a right vs left kind of thing and I know it's not allowed here, but fact is, the larger the business, the more they will 100% require a legal climate that gives them the widest range of relocation options, available workers and talent they can get and the last 5-10 years have produced some laws on the books that large international companies just absolutely prohibit for relocation, and I know for a fact a couple of very large companies have just literally said that in clear terms.

I think that's valid. 100%.

I think our long term prospects at keeping Paycom might be looking a little iffy at this point. Its CEO has picked a fight with the very influential GOP lobbying group, OCPAC, and suddenly, Chad Richison is now no longer welcome at his alma mater, even after making a pretty substantial donation to improve the athletic facilities. Our state is eating its own. Our neighbor to the South has mastered the art of cosplaying as yeehaw buffoons to get reelected, but they also know that higher education is necessary to support industry and growth. Here in Oklahoma, we have poltiicians talking about cutting 100% of the higher ed budget. I can tell you Texas would never do something so dumb--or even talk about it out in the open. Even talk like that is going to scare away investment.

And so now, we're left with companies like Canoo and it appears the State has just been a party to some overall pump and dump type scheme. Fortunately, we structured the deal around some solid metrics and the state isn't going to be left that much in the lurch. Maybe just a little embarrassed.

But no one is going to want to locate a major plant here until Oklahoma's public education sector can get it together--and I don't mean by privatizing.


I hire a lot of very high level CS engineers and EE's and it amazes me how flippant our government is to these segments and how little they understand that the cost of building a factory pales in comparison to the hassle and cost of securing the best of the best engineers. Oklahoma has got to get passed this "but we have cheap land" argument because in these spaces, if that's all you got, you got nothing.[/QUOTE]

I think that's valid. 100%.

I think our long term prospects at keeping Paycom might be looking a little iffy at this point. Its CEO has picked a fight with the very influential GOP lobbying group, OCPAC, and suddenly, Chad Richison is now no longer welcome at his alma mater, even after making a pretty substantial donation to improve the athletic facilities. Our state is eating its own. Our neighbor to the South has mastered the art of cosplaying as yeehaw buffoons to get reelected, but they also know that higher education is necessary to support industry and growth. Here in Oklahoma, we have poltiicians talking about cutting 100% of the higher ed budget. I can tell you Texas would never do something so dumb--or even talk about it out in the open. Even talk like that is going to scare away investment.

And so now, we're left with companies like Canoo and it appears the State has just been a party to some overall pump and dump type scheme. Fortunately, we structured the deal around some solid metrics and the state isn't going to be left that much in the lurch. Maybe just a little embarrassed.

But no one is going to want to locate a major plant here until Oklahoma's public education sector can get it together--and I don't mean by privatizing.


I hire a lot of very high level CS engineers and EE's and it amazes me how flippant our government is to these segments and how little they understand that the cost of building a factory pales in comparison to the hassle and cost of securing the best of the best engineers. Oklahoma has got to get passed this "but we have cheap land" argument because in these spaces, if that's all you got, you got nothing.

i think there isn't much of a concern of paycom leaving. it's more i think an issue of if Chad continues to run the company he started. I heard it on pretty good authority that the naming of a Co-CEO of Chris Thomas back in Feburary, was not exactly Chad's idea... I think some of his outside the work comments and efforts is what is causing him to come back to the company more aggressively, and rightfully the board isn't happy about any of it.

With the OSDE refusing to share data with school ranking services, the race to be the call center/warehose leader among the 50 states will be realized.

Nvm

With the OSDE refusing to share data with school ranking services, the race to be the call center/warehose leader among the 50 states will be realized.

I've lived in other states that value public education and higher ed and the results are tangible. Higher wages, better health outcomes, etc. Oklahoma seems content to land a Data Center or Call Center every year or so and really hype it up as a huge success. I think OKC/Tulsa are starting to have enough critical mass to help change this.. but state leadership doesn't seem invested at all.

I've lived in other states that value public education and higher ed and the results are tangible. Higher wages, better health outcomes, etc. Oklahoma seems content to land a Data Center or Call Center every year or so and really hype it up as a huge success. I think OKC/Tulsa are starting to have enough critical mass to help change this.. but state leadership doesn't seem invested at all.

as someone who grew up in rural Oklahoma, and didn't move to OKC until after college, i can tell you that you basically have to drag the rest of the state up, before they drag you down, because rural Oklahoma won't ever want change. And then they wonder why they keep losing population every year.

EV startup Canoo posts larger-than-expected loss in first quarter
By Reuters
May 14, 2024

May 14 (Reuters) - Electric vehicle startup Canoo posted a larger-than-expected loss for the first quarter on Tuesday, but kept its outlook for the year unchanged.

Slowing demand in the United States and stiff competition from Chinese EV makers in the world's largest auto market has hit demand for companies including Canoo.

That has forced several startups to shut shop as investors have also grown cautious, making it difficult to raise more funds.

EV startup Fisker had raised going concern doubts in February, followed by the delisting of its stock from the New York Stock exchange and the collapse of talks with a large automaker for a potential deal in March.

Canoo first cautioned investors in 2022 that it had "substantial doubt" about continuing as a going concern and has since been raising capital to support production.

Canoo's net loss widened to $110.7 million for the quarter ended March 31 from $90.7 million in the year-ago quarter. Analysts, on average, had expected a loss of $55.2 million, according to LSEG data.

The Texas-based company's research and development expenses fell about 44%, helping lower operating expenses to $62.6 million from $81.5 million a year earlier.

The company's cash and cash equivalents stood at $18.2 million as of March 31, up from $6.4 million at the end of December last year.
Canoo, which went public in 2020 through a reverse merger with a special purpose acquisition company, is a supplier of electric delivery vans to Walmart and crew transportation vehicles to NASA.

Canoo continues to bleed money at an alarming rate.

However, a much bigger drain will come when they actually start producing cars. Even big established players like Rivian and Fisker are losing something like $25K per vehicle they manufacture and sell.

I'm sure this is the reason Canoo isn't actually building cars. I suppose they are looking for a massive cash infusion somehow or a buyout. Until then, they seem to be a zombie company.

Got excited as I saw the stock is at $2.56 then remembered they did a reverse split recently. Thought I was cashing in as I bought about at 10% of that

Looks like suits beginning to be filed. https://x.com/paytonmaytv/status/1821574936248602796

https://x.com/paytonmaytv/status/1821585083620610439

The end is near.

The end is near.

Was there ever a start?

Was there ever a start?

The start was the end.

Wait an electric car company going under. Wow shocking. Sarcasm by the way. I lived in Northern Indiana. Obama came twice to the small town of Wakarusa Indiana. They were going to make all these parts for electric cars. It was going to be the electric car capital of the world. 15 years later it's still a small town with a dollar general, McDonalds in a gas station not much else. https://wsbt.com/news/business/elkharts-electric-car-flop It's been going on for years.

Oh that suit is nothing - just an unpaid bill. A tiny crack within the chasms that have already blatantly been showing in this company's façade. I had actually forgotten about Canoo. Their window has passed on by. The last ounce of hope ran out earlier this year.

Here is an article that explains a little better, they actually have an estimated $500k in unpaid bills and counting, but of course they are denying... https://okcfox.com/news/local/canoo-faces-another-lawsuit-for-unfulfilled-payments-denies-owing-over-500k-air-capital-equipment-inc-air-system-company-open-account-agreement-materials-credit-invoices-payments-interest-arbitration-neutral-third-party-motion-hearing-scheduled

They have an earnings report on Aug 14. Will be interesting to hear if they have managed to do anything with the OKC plant yet. Is there any activity there anymore?

^

Based on every other EV manufacturer on the planet, they will *really* start to lose money once they actually start to build cars.

They are in such a deep hole they can't afford to build the vehicles, take even bigger losses, then ride that out that for many years until they can hope to break even on anything they produce.

This is why they keep stalling on car building and it's hard to imagine how that is ever going to change. Their only real hope is someone with deep pockets buys them out, but all that money is already committed to the big auto manufacturers and a handful of viable startups like Rivian. Why would you bet huge sums on Canoo?

And BTW, every day they sit on their hands all the big boys are manufacturing, learning, growing, and improving. They were already far behind and now the gap is just widening every passing day. The Koreans in particular are kicking tail and parallel to all the EV improvements hybrid cars (esp. world-force Toyota) are making huge leaps that will bridge the long period between ICE dominance and EVs finally becoming the preferred platform, especially in North America.

And oh yeah, the Chinese are already killing everyone in terms of EV value proposition.

Honestly disappointing, the design of the LV/LDV was starting to grow on me, and it would have been really cool to have some auto manufacturing back in the state - especially a homegrown option!

that last sentence by Pete is another story

Is there any source for how much money and other assets state and local governments have sunk into this rat hole?

that last sentence by Pete is another story

Chinese EV makers have already captured 11% of the EV market in Europe.

That's nothing short of astounding, considering that continent is home to a bunch of legendary carmakers that have been around for 100 years. We can argue about tariffs all day long but the Chinese (and especially BYD) are already cranking out some really nice cars.

If you watched any of Euro 2024 you saw the BYD advertising everywhere at the various German stadiums.

I really wanted a homegrown manufacturer to work out and this seen further and further away from becoming a reality. Maybe one of the larger companies will buy the design and equipment they purchased for pennies and make the LV/LDV. I'll hang onto my shares and go down with the ship.

Is there any source for how much money and other assets state and local governments have sunk into this rat hole?

Almost all the incentives are tied to job creation and they've already missed two deadlines and thus lost out on millions. As you can see by the terms outlined below, it's hard to believe they will ever quality for much:


The new Quick Action Closing Fund agreement with Canoo, which overrides the previous ones, offers up to $7.5 million in exchange for creating 1,362 new jobs with an average wage of $60,512 and a capital investment of $321.6 million by Canoo over a period of 10 years. The agreement would provide Canoo with $1 million if it creates 100 jobs this year.

Canoo can also receive up to $40 million from the state’s Quality Jobs Program over a period of 10 years. The deal is subject to the company generating $2.5 million in new gross taxable payroll within three years on jobs that pay at least $40,472 a year and at least 340 full-time jobs with average salary of $60,512.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/canoo-could-collect-up-to-110-million-in-state-incentives-over-the-next-decade-but-three-previous-oklahoma-deals-fell-through/

Chinese EV makers have already captured 11% of the EV market in Europe.

That's nothing short of astounding, considering that continent is home to a bunch of legendary carmakers that have been around for 100 years. We can argue about tariffs all day long but the Chinese (and especially BYD) are already cranking out some really nice cars.

If you watched any of Euro 2024 you saw the BYD advertising everywhere at the various German stadiums.

The 2025 MINI EV is built in China (up until then, it was Germany and England).

I really wanted a homegrown manufacturer to work out and this seen further and further away from becoming a reality. Maybe one of the larger companies will buy the design and equipment they purchased for pennies and make the LV/LDV. I'll hang onto my shares and go down with the ship.

I looked at my shares today and decided the same thing.

From The Verge:

"EV startup Canoo has lost co-founder and chief technology officer Sohel Merchant and is moving its operations out of Los Angeles, according to two reports from TechCrunch this week, citing unnamed sources."

Full article: https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/24/24227609/canoo-ev-startup-cto-sohel-merchant-founder

OKC failed to get their hq (not that it will matter much, long-term).

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2024/08/28/electrical-vehicle-company-canoo-to-move-its-hq-from-california-to-north-texas/

OKC failed to get their hq (not that it will matter much, long-term).

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2024/08/28/electrical-vehicle-company-canoo-to-move-its-hq-from-california-to-north-texas/

How they are still afloat at 1.42 a share is beyond me.

The reason they were in Torrance is because it's the auto design capital of North America.

Their current offices in Justin, TX (north of Ft. Worth) are in a converted strip mall.

Says a lot about their current reality.

OKC failed to get their hq (not that it will matter much, long-term).

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2024/08/28/electrical-vehicle-company-canoo-to-move-its-hq-from-california-to-north-texas/

Well, they may end up in a tent in OKC before its all said and done.

Press release:

**********

Canoo to Expand Presence in Central U.S. with Engineering Talent and Headquarters Relocation
September 5, 2024

Canoo, a high-tech advanced mobility company, recently announced plans to migrate its engineering workforce to its two Oklahoma locations – Oklahoma City and Pryor – as well as plans to relocate its corporate headquarters to northern Texas. Canoo estimates these efforts will bring $15 million in new taxes for the engineering relocations and headquarters, with an expected $150 million in new tax base over the next 10 years.

The engineer migration will result in approximately 137 engineering positions being relocated to Texas and Oklahoma with approximately 75% in Oklahoma. Existing Canoo engineers have been offered relocations packages. At this time, the company does not have official numbers of workforce relocations and anticipates relocations to begin in the fourth quarter of 2024.

The company cited one of the benefits of the move as co-locating engineering and manufacturing within the company’s vehicle manufacturing facility in Oklahoma City. Canoo currently occupies nearly 500,000 square feet with the ability to rapidly expand. The company is proud to offer their customers products made in America and to continue investing in a state that supports diverse businesses and promotes workforce diversity.

Canoo’s vehicles are currently on the road with USPS, Walmart, NASA, and other large commercial, government and fleet customers. The company states their design-forward innovative electric cargo vehicles are reinventing the commercial vehicle landscape. The vehicles modular electric platform is purpose-built to maximize the vehicle interior space and is customizable to support a wide range of business and government applications.

i can say that i drive by the Canoo facility every day for work, and for some reason starting this morning, the parking lot for employees is much more full than i have ever seen it before

Whenever companies make decisions based on tax credits than you know things arent good. Like the crypto companies that make more money from energy credits (basically not running their miners at peak electricity usage) as opposed to the actual mining itself

I guess we will start seeing these out in the wild in OKC now?

"Canoo continues its partnership with Oklahoma State University and University of Oklahoma, driving innovation and fostering the next generation of engineers!

Through this ongoing collaboration, students will be working on real-world technical projects directly tied to vehicle production-ranging from mechanical design to Al-enabled multidisciplinary projects and geothermal heat pump applications. These initiatives are scoped to serve as Bachelor of Engineering capstones or Masters/ PhD thesis projects, equipping students with hands-on industry experience and preparing them for successful careers.

At Canoo, we're not just bringing jobs to Oklahoma; we're also creating pathways for growth and opportunity. Together, we're shaping the future of mobility and empowering the engineers of tomorrow!"

19146

^

They still are only building a very small number of vehicles.

They can't afford mass production because they'll really start losing money at that point.

^

They still are only building a very small number of vehicles.

They can't afford mass production because they'll really start losing money at that point.

I see a Cyber Truck or Rivian every other day. I have yet to see a Canoo and that says a lot. I even saw a Polstar before seeing a Canoo out in the wild. Ha!

I see a Cyber Truck or Rivian every other day. I have yet to see a Canoo and that says a lot. I even saw a Polstar before seeing a Canoo out in the wild. Ha!

Used to see one every day up at the State offices Nextdoor to The Presley. That’s the only one though.

Used to see one every day up at the State offices Nextdoor to The Presley. That’s the only one though.

I see them up and down Lincoln every so often. Saw on yesterday heading to the Health Authority.

have to start somewhere. Good news for OKC and the state nonetheless.

I bought a 2023 Rivian to give it a try for a few months and sold it. I wasn't too impressed with it. I'm considering buying a new 2025 R1S model that have full driving capabilities. The self driving on the highway wasn't that great. I got it through Carvana. They have a lot of Rivians on there so I don't know if that's good or bad.

I like that the Canoos are different but I just don't know how they would do driving around my property.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection approved Canoo's electric vehicle manufacturing facilities in Oklahoma for final activation, designating it as a Foreign Trade Zone immune to import tariffs as the company expands globally, the company announced in a news release;
Check out this article from The Oklahoman:

Career expos, electric vehicles and other business news in Oklahoma

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/business/briefs/2024/09/24/oklahoma-jobs-canoo-ev-manufacturing-mental-health-care/75338078007/

Canno stock now below $1; real risk of being delisted from NASDAQ.

Also, they are being sued by a Chinese vendor for nonpayment.

Was just noticing this company that looks like they are bringing back the Scout International, but in an EV Truck and SUV. Scout Motors (https://www.scoutmotors.com/)

I have a feeling these will do better that Canoo!

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Was just noticing this company that looks like they are bringing back the Scout International, but in an EV Truck and SUV. Scout Motors (https://www.scoutmotors.com/)

I have a feeling these will do better that Canoo!

19240

Ya they are on my list. I gotta see one in person and get a drive. Loved the Scout growing up.