Where can I see the data that says this is one of the highest revenue generating assets the city has?

Fine, burn it to the ground. Arenas are overrated. You got me.

Yeah, I'm not sure if personal net worth of individual owners is even relevant to how much capital the group could finance to participate in the construction of a new arena.

At this point, the team is valued at around 5 times what they paid for it. And I'm pretty sure we don't know what the splits are anyway, so each individual's personal net worth doesn't in any way equate to what the Thunder can contribute to financing a new arena as a group.

I guess it's possible, but I highly doubt any financing the group uses to participate in the construction of a new arena would be secured with anything other than Thunder basketball operations. Whether they're billionaires or millionaires, they didn't get to where they are now by doing that,

I think the team is worth 10 times what they paid. The sale of most of Michael Jordan’s stake in the Charlotte Hornets place the overall team value at $3 billion. The Hornets have not done well financially, or on court, even with Charlotte as a larger market. Sure looks to me like the Thunder have an equal, if not larger, value.

OKC Citizens funded 100% of Ford Center/Paycom Center when it was built and the city owns 100% of the facility. Correct?

In the case of a percentage share on a new arena between ownership and citizens of the City, who owns the arena?

The City of Arlington, Texas helped finance about a third of the Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, but they are listed as the primary owner.

It's a good question and I bet the arrangements are different across the country. One way the ownership could structure such a deal is to finance 10% of the cost, say $100 million, and then sign a 25 year lease at an annual rate that reflects a discount based on that upfront investment. Or they could backload the lease so that they upfront investment is just reflective of the lease revenues the city would have received in the first 10 years of the lease. Lots of different ways to structure it to where they city is the majority or even 100% owner of the facility. I don't really expect the city to be anything but a 100% owner of the arena.

I think the team is worth 10 times what they paid. The sale of most of Michael Jordan’s stake in the Charlotte Hornets place the overall team value at $3 billion. The Hornets have not done well financially, or on court, even with Charlotte as a larger market. Sure looks to me like the Thunder have an equal, if not larger, value.

Honest question: Have you never been to a non Thunder event at Paycom? We are talking about an Arena here not just a basketball gym, and how fortunate is OKC to have a full time tenant for the future arena.

Fine, burn it to the ground. Arenas are overrated. You got me.

It was an honest question, just asking where you got your information from. No need to go all extreme in your response just because you can’t back up your claim.

Here are the 10 richest in Oklahoma (Posted on March 25, 2023, MONEY INC https://moneyinc.com/richest-people-oklahoma/

Clayton I. Bennett who is among the Thunder ownership group isn't listed--although reports say his net worth is $400 million. Tom Ward - $273 million was listed as #10.

Wouldn't expect this ownership group to contribute much if any toward a new NBA spec arena. OKC will be pressing for a long-term commitment if a $500 million or more arena (comparable to Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum arena $524 million) is built on the PSM site.


Clayton I. Bennett, Chairman, Oklahoma City Thunder Chairman, Dorchester Capital - $400 million net worth.
George B. Kaiser, President, GBK CorporationChairman, BOK Financial - $13.2 Billion net worth
G. Jeffrey Records, Jr., Chairman and CEO,MidFirst Bank $7.2 million house in Los Angeles. Net worth N/A
William M. Cameron, Chairman and CEO,American Fidelity Assurance Company. Net worth $9 million
Robert E. Howard II, Chairman, Howard Investments. Net worth $6 million
Jay Scaramucci, President, Balon Corporation. Net worth N/A
Everett R. Dobson, Managing Partner,Dobson Partnerships. Net worth $5 million

Taken from various sources--you know as well as anyone why this information isn't reported with any amount of frequency.

Bill Cameron is worth at least a few hundred million, maybe a billion+. The $9 million dollar estimate is way off.

I’m probably personally acquainted with a couple dozen people worth between $5 million and $9 million, and none of them are named Records, Cameron, Howard or Dobson. You too, the reader, are probably also personally acquainted with far more people with this type of net worth than you know. That’s really not a lot of money these days, honestly.

Anyone who has any concept of how true wealth works would dismiss the numbers cited above in this thread out of hand. As in, it’s literally impossible that those numbers are accurate. The truly wealthy pay lots of money to highly-qualified professionals to make their net worth inscrutable to outsiders. This is especially easy to do when their equity is private.

With all of that said, and back to the topic at hand, the Thunder is pushing for a new building and for the City’s ownership and funding of said building not out of rapacious greed but out of a need to keep up with the costs of running a franchise, now and in the future. They are pushing for this in order to secure OKC as a home for the team for decades to come, not just for the next five years. Sure, they want to make money, too. People like this aren’t in the business of losing money, even if it would buy them some community warm fuzzies. That’s not how they got where they are in life.

But make no mistake that facilities are an arms race, and the smaller the market the more likely it is that a team will need the community to be a partner in order to maintain the status quo. Major league pro sports are insanely expensive, and not likely to get cheaper in the future.

You said there are multiple billionaires [“closer to 4 then (sic) 1”]. Please name them and cite your source. I’m genuinely interested in this, and everything I see when I search is much closer to Laramie’s estimation than yours. Can you name the specific billionaires and tell us where you got the information to back it up? Or are you just making it up based on your gut?

the Records family are the sole owners of the MIdfirst empire ..

the Cameron family are the sole owners of the American Fidelity/First Fidelity empire

Bob Howards real estate in midtown okc alone is worth millions and millions of dollars .. he is almost for sure a Billionaire ..

I’ll also point out another thing about the investors behind the Thunder: from a strictly self-interest business perspective, the thing that makes the most money sense by far would be for them to sell the team. They’d make out like bandits if they did. If they were ONLY in this to make money - purely a greed motivation - they’d sell the team for ten times what they originally paid, and walk away with no regrets.

The fact that instead they’re working to secure the team a long-term home, one that leverages all currently-known revenue streams available in a state-of-the-art NBA building, is defensibly a community service. Selling the team would almost certainly lead to a move from this market, now or later. And OKC would likely never see another major league franchise with a failure such as this on our resume. It’s legitimately important for the future of the city.

We are talking about an Arena here not just a basketball gym, and how fortunate is OKC to have a full time tenant for the future arena.

Agree. Framing it as just for the Thunder is short sighted, imo. If managed correctly, it will be used as much or more for non-Thunder events than for Thunder games. But the reason OKC could have a world class arena for all kinds of world class events is because the Thunder is there as an anchor tenant.

Honest question: Have you never been to a non Thunder event at Paycom? We are talking about an Arena here not just a basketball gym, and how fortunate is OKC to have a full time tenant for the future arena.

Exactly. OKC citizens don't know the benefits of a truly top-notch arena, interesting of getting top tier events, because, well, we've never had one. Even new, the Ford Center was limited. Can only put so much lipstick on a pig before you start to realize that it is what it is: just a pig.

Bill Cameron is worth at least a few hundred million, maybe a billion+. The $9 million dollar estimate is way off.

When I looked up the sources, they IMO were incorrect. You're correct Bill Cameron is worth more and also G. Jeffrey Records is a three figure millionaire--come to find out that he owned more of the team than any one Thunder owner among the four original owners. He sold shares to Jay Scaramucci, Everett R. Dodson and more shares to Clay Bennett and still owns a good part of the Thunder. IIRC, G. J. Records bank MidFirst services the Thunder accounts.

Tom Ward sold his 19-23% shares to Tulsa Billionaire George B. Kaiser.

Please disregard those figures beyond Bennett and Kaiser all of these owners in the group are three-figure multimillionaires.

My sincere apologies if I caused any confusion on my part. THUNDER UP!

Is anyone going to the State of the City address today? Would love for someone to report back on the info given out by Holt.

Is anyone going to the State of the City address today? Would love for someone to report back on the info given out by Holt.

it is going to be streamed live on OKC's facebook page

Link to stream:

https://www.facebook.com/cityofokc/videos/1298892300991123/

I wonder how many of the 110 people currently viewing the stream are from OKCTalk? :)

I was following someone live tweeting it on Twitter and from that source it seemed like very little new information was revealed today. It sounded like Holt simply made the case that we need a new arena and that was it. Is that what others saw/heard?

I am watching it live now and he hasn't talked about specifics yet, just info on the NBA and our past as an NBA city.

I was following someone live tweeting it on Twitter and from that source it seemed like very little new information was revealed today. It sounded like Holt simply made the case that we need a new arena and that was it. Is that what others saw/heard?

it is still going currently ...

He’s talking about it now

Some folks online accidentally watched the 2022 State of the City and thought that was it. :)

Some folks online accidentally watched the 2022 State of the City and thought that was it. :)

plan before the end of the summer vote before the end of this year .. taxes will not be raised ownership will significantly contribute


world class arena ..

Some folks online accidentally watched the 2022 State of the City and thought that was it. :)

Well they weren't wrong. In the final stages of coming up with a plan to put up for vote by end of the year.

It looks like some of the Maps 4 funding could go to this.

Mayor Holt just announced that the funding for the new Arena will come from the remaining money from the Maps 4 and the rest of it will come from the Ownership group.

It looks like some of the Maps 4 funding could go to this.

we already new that

Mayor Holt just announced that the funding for the new Arena will come from the remaining money from the Maps 4 and the rest of it will come from the Ownership group.

not what he said .. there will be a vote for new funding also

New arena proposal.
No tax increase.
Ownership contribution.
City will secure a longer lease than originally (15 years).

No other details that I could hear. Didn't mention dollar amount, location or contribution from ownership.

we already new that
That will be good. I did not know that

not what he said .. there will be a vote for new funding also

plan is to open the arena this decade

Proposal coming by the end of the summer. Vote by the end of the year.

Nothing new other than they "are close" and there will be a public vote before the end of the year.

Also a "significant financial contribution" by Thunder ownership.

End of summer they will have a finalized plan.

Will extend sales tax and use some MAPS 4 funds but not levy additional taxes.

That will be good. I did not know that

70 mil of the paycom arena renovation money was put on "hold"

I wonder how many of the 110 people currently viewing the stream are from OKCTalk? :)

At least two or three I imagine

David Holt is good at rhetoric. I support the new Stadium.

You can be sure most of this is already decided.

They just have to finalize the agreement with the Thunder ownership, whip up some flashy renderings, create the budget with the sources of funds, then present it to the public probably in September for a December vote.

I still expect it will be on the Cox site and cost about $1 billion. This has been the consensus of everyone that knows anything about this project and it hasn't changed in the last year.

Since there is no tax increase, do we think this will be an extension of the MAPS 4 tax?

Since there is no tax increase, do we think this will be an extension of the MAPS 4 tax?

Yes as MAPS 4 collection ends in 2028.

Plus the allocated MAPS 4 funds, plus Thunder ownership dollars.

I'm sure they'll use the MAPS 4 money to hire the architect and get the plans shovel-ready.

since there is no tax increase, do we think this will be an extension of the maps 4 tax?

maps 4.5

Since there is no tax increase, do we think this will be an extension of the MAPS 4 tax?

Yes, and since the tax collections have increased it will probably allow MAPS a few less years to make it debt free.

Won't know anything until we get the final price tag budgeted for the new arena development which includes demolition
of the four square block PSM site and the significant contribution from the ownership group.

You can be sure most of this is already decided.

They just have to finalize the agreement with the Thunder ownership, whip up some flashy renderings, create the budget with the sources of funds, then present it to the public probably in September for a December vote.

I still expect it will be on the Cox site and cost about $1 billion. This has been the consensus of everyone that knows anything about this project and it hasn't changed in the last year.

I wonder if the 1 billion includes inflation costs for 10 years out.

I wonder if the 1 billion includes inflation costs for 10 years out.

i think the plan is to have the building open before 2030 ..

my guess is that construction on the arena starts in 2025

MAPS 4 Expires April 2028, extension of the MAPS 4 tax vote will come in September or December of 2027.

Earliest construction could begin would be May 2028 with an architectural firm's design already in place and
the awarding of the construction bid.

Meanwhile the $70 million + interest on hold, some of the funds could be used for demolition of the 4-square block PSM site.

i think the plan is to have the building open before 2030 ..

my guess is that construction on the arena starts in 2025

Yes, Holt alluded to it being open "before the end of the decade".

MAPS 4 Expires April 2028, extension of the MAPS 4 tax vote will come in September or December of 2027.

Earliest construction could begin would be May 2028 with an architectural firm's design already in place and
the awarding of the construction bid.

Meanwhile the $70 million on hold, some of the funds could be used for demolition of the 4-square block PSM site.

Won't be done through MAPS, most likely. No way in Hades they are waiting til then.

Won't be done through MAPS, most likely. No way in Hades they are waiting til then.

If not thru MAPS, then bonds are the only alternative I can think would be used. Have or city and/or county reached its bonded indebtedness.

Won't be done through MAPS, most likely. No way in Hades they are waiting til then.

they can if they first get a loan from the team owners and they are paid back with the "maps" extension money ..

Too many missing variables on funding like the amount the arena development will cost, the ownership's contribution and the site plan funding--will it be bonds or a MAPS extension.

If not thru MAPS, then bonds are the only alternative I can think would be used. Have or city and/or county reached its bonded indebtedness.

Building it without debt is a core selling point. Using Bonds will sour the momentum.

The main question I would have is if this is an extension of MAPS 4, where does it fall in terms of construction? Will other projects get pushed to the back since collections will go toward the new arena or will all of it be taken care of on the back end?

Building it without debt is a core selling point. Using Bonds will sour the momentum.

Then you're not getting construction started before 2026. You won't see a major ownership contribution because they are going to hold on to that amount of funds to continue to grow interest.

Won't be done through MAPS, most likely. No way in Hades they are waiting til then.

What will happen is they'll use MAPS 4 money for the planning and prep work.

Then MAPS 4 collections expire in 2028 and the vote will be to extend that for a number of years to fund the public part of this.


Holt specifically said they could do it "by keeping the current sales tax rates". Whether you call it MAPS or something else, it's going to work exactly the same way.

Also, expect a big chunk of TIF money.

I would assume MAPS 4 is going to blow the original collection estimates put of the water. Between growth and inflation, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw $200M in excess of original estimates. While some of that will need to go to projects that will now cost more, I think excess plus original allocation to Paycom Center represents an easy $200M, then add at least $350M from owners.

That's halfway there and then every year after 2028 adds probably $160M, we'd be at $1B by 2031 and if this is a $1B+ project, there will be at least $200M+ of work that can be completed after the stadium is open to the public.

And Pete also mentioned it, bit the city is sitting on a huge amount of TIF funds.

I would assume MAPS 4 is going to blow the original collection estimates put of the water. Between growth and inflation, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw $200M in excess of original estimates. While some of that will need to go to projects that will now cost more, I think excess plus original allocation to Paycom Center represents an easy $200M, then add at least $350M from owners.

That's halfway there and then every year after 2028 adds probably $160M, we'd be at $1B by 2031 and if this is a $1B+ project, there will be at least $200M+ of work that can be completed after the stadium is open to the public.

And Pete also mentioned it, bit the city is sitting on a huge amount of TIF funds.

Bingo.

Holt rolled it out last year, has been working behind the scenes with all parties, the support is there and this will fly through.

The main question I would have is if this is an extension of MAPS 4, where does it fall in terms of construction? Will other projects get pushed to the back since collections will go toward the new arena or will all of it be taken care of on the back end?

This will be separate from MAPS 4 -- the arena collections won't start until MAPS 4 expires in 2028. The sales tax will expire then but project construction typically stretches out beyond that date.

There is MAPS 4 money already allocated for the new arena. Most of it came from plans to improve Paycom which are generally now on hold.

I would assume MAPS 4 is going to blow the original collection estimates put of the water. Between growth and inflation, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw $200M in excess of original estimates. While some of that will need to go to projects that will now cost more, I think excess plus original allocation to Paycom Center represents an easy $200M, then add at least $350M from owners.

That's halfway there and then every year after 2028 adds probably $160M, we'd be at $1B by 2031 and if this is a $1B+ project, there will be at least $200M+ of work that can be completed after the stadium is open to the public.

And Pete also mentioned it, bit the city is sitting on a huge amount of TIF funds.

Sounds logical. So, what's your prediction when the PSM site be demolished and arena construction begins.

Also Holt dropped the biggest hint when he talked about the timelines: Municipal Auditorium, Fairgrounds Arena, Myriad Convention Center, Paycom Center to the new NBA arena development.

This will be separate from MAPS 4 -- the arena collections won't start until MAPS 4 expires in 2028. The sales tax will expire then but project construction typically stretches out beyond that date.

There is MAPS 4 money already allocated for the new arena. Most of it came from plans to improve Paycom which are generally now on hold.

Thanks for that. I assume this will be similar to the original MAPS where it was just an extension from the original one and be sold as such. To Teo9969's point, $350 owner contribution (I think it would be less, closer to $200), $200 in funds allotted for the paycom expansion, $200 in TIF would put us at $750. I think it will be closer to $600. Then another $400 in MAPS funds over three years doesn't seem too unreasonable.

The main thing the city needs to very deliberately explain is why the Paycom arena isn't good enough. I have explained to my wife and some friends why and they don't completely get it. They think we can spend $50 million and get a lot more and a new arena isn't necessary. I hope the city has a plan to do that.

Thanks for that. I assume this will be similar to the original MAPS where it was just an extension from the original one and be sold as such. To Teo9969's point, $350 owner contribution (I think it would be less, closer to $200), $200 in funds allotted for the paycom expansion, $200 in TIF would put us at $750. I think it will be closer to $600. Then another $400 in MAPS funds over three years doesn't seem too unreasonable.

The main thing the city needs to very deliberately explain is why the Paycom arena isn't good enough. I have explained to my wife and some friends why and they don't completely get it. They think we can spend $50 million and get a lot more and a new arena isn't necessary. I hope the city has a plan to do that.

Anyone who has been paying attention already know that it's the total square footage of the Paycom Center and to bring in the fan friendly amenities like a balcony terrace and more room for concession and restaurant space.

You can't expand the current Paycom Center to do the above, it's cost prohibitive since the Paycom Center doesn't have the space to allow for expansion. Hence, build a new arena.

Also how much is a significant contribution when you don't know how much a new arena will cost.

Then you're not getting construction started before 2026. You won't see a major ownership contribution because they are going to hold on to that amount of funds to continue to grow interest.

Delayed gratification is seen as a virtue in this town; and looking at the ownership group I think they would agree.

Anyone who has been paying attention already know that it's the total square footage of the Paycom Center and to bring in the fan friendly amenities like a balcony terrace and more room for concession and restaurant space.

You can't expand the current Paycom Center to do the above, it's cost prohibitive since the Paycom Center doesn't have the space to allow for expansion. Hence, build a new arena.

Also how much is a significant contribution when you don't know how much a new arena will cost.

I get it and I understand it, what I am saying is I cannot go out and try to convince the voting population to vote yes on this, the city has to do a good job of that. Also, most people aren't really well informed by being on okctalk, they will vote however their political beliefs a-line.

We have been told the cost will be around a billion dollars. Your definition of significant will be different than mine and to random taxpayer. A lot of people think the ownership should pay for all of it.