I prefer the crazy look (I don't know the architectural term lol) of the BOK arena in Tulsa. I hope they do something similar for the new arena.

^^^^^^^^
BOK was designed by César Pelli, who among other things was architect for Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Not sure if this arena will be designed by a “starchitect,” but the budget by itself will certainly give it a great shot at a notable design firm. And I’m sure everyone involved will want aesthetics to be of primary importance, in the way the were NOT of primary importance for Paycom, which was build on an extraordinarily modest budget.

^^^^^^^^
BOK was designed by César Pelli, who among other things was architect for Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Not sure if this arena will be designed by a “starchitect,” but the budget by itself will certainly give it a great shot at a notable design firm. And I’m sure everyone involved will want aesthetics to be of primary importance, in the way the were NOT of primary importance for Paycom, which was build on an extraordinarily modest budget.

As there is so much passion around this, I would love to see the drawings stay in-state by an Oklahoma firm. Maybe somewhere the little guy gets picked instead of a “starchtect” that is padding his ego.

^^^^^^^^
BOK was designed by César Pelli, who among other things was architect for Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Not sure if this arena will be designed by a “starchitect,” but the budget by itself will certainly give it a great shot at a notable design firm. And I’m sure everyone involved will want aesthetics to be of primary importance, in the way the were NOT of primary importance for Paycom, which was build on an extraordinarily modest budget.

lets get real there is about a 90% chance this will be designed by either Populous or HOK

As there is so much passion around this, I would love to see the drawings stay in-state by an Oklahoma firm. Maybe somewhere the little guy gets picked instead of a “starchtect” that is padding his ego.

I hope not, OK firms haven't got to that level yet. I guess it will be HOK, or Populus.

I hope not, OK firms haven't got to that level yet.

That’s a pretty unfair assessment of the architects that work here. Just because one “stays” local instead of jumping to a bigger firm/city mean nothing. There is talent here. Maybe this is their time to shine.
We are going to have a billion dollar first class facility but then “can’t” use a local firm because “they haven’t got to that level yet”, then IMO we don’t deserve the arena with that small mindset.

From a pure design perspective I'm sure there are some local folks that would be capable, but there's a lot more that goes into a stadium than just the exterior design that I believe makes using the right, experienced, firm for the job regardless of location. And while I hope we get something architecturally interesting, I won't be surprised at all if whatever it is is fairly boxy and straightforward with a lot of mixed use components, rather than a traditional circular "arena" look, and I wouldn't complain about that at all. Assuming it's the Cox site, I am curious if they'll end up taking advantage of the lower level parking garage/basement/etc. and have the court be below ground level.

That’s a pretty unfair assessment of the architects that work here. Just because one “stays” local instead of jumping to a bigger firm/city mean nothing. There is talent here. Maybe this is their time to shine.
We are going to have a billion dollar first class facility but then “can’t” use a local firm because “they haven’t got to that level yet”, then IMO we don’t deserve the arena with that small mindset.

I apologize, but have you ever explored the portfolios of renowned firms such as HOK, Populous, HKS, or Gensler? Crafting a quality sports venue involves numerous elements, including aesthetics, engineering, attendee experience, and sound effects. I'm curious, what's the most intricate project undertaken by an OKC firm thus far? I'm steadfast in my opinion.

It’s simple, but I love the look of Kansas City’s arena. Chase Center is also incredible.

...Assuming it's the Cox site, I am curious if they'll end up taking advantage of the lower level parking garage/basement/etc. and have the court be below ground level.
If it ends up being on the Cox site (increasingly likely), the arena floor will definitely be below grade. It’s the preferred configuration, so that the main concourse - almost always about halfway up the bowl - will remain at street level. Big savings in regard to structural steel, stairways, elevators, escalators, plus generally more convenient than other configurations.

Another consideration in site preparation is fill. It would save money to build below grade, as the cubic feet of fill required to fill that site will itself be substantial.

Since we still have time to dream, dream big:
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/2645_MB58-01_9273.jpg
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/226_CO_080418_850_IB_PRI.jpg
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/Allianz_Arena_1366x768.jpg

Btw, what's the plan for the current Paycom Center? Please don't tell me it will be demolished.

To be clear, this ~$1 billion budget has carrying costs associated. The actual building itself will probably cost ~$600-700 million, which will certainly build a beautiful, spacious, highly-functional multipurpose arena but probably won’t unlock an art piece. Those seem to be in the $2B range these days.

I'm still hoping for a rose rock arena.

Regarding the use of Oklahoma A&E firms, there really are none in this space, and only a few in the country, as BoulderSooner points out. This is a very specialized building, and not at all a place for a firm to cut its teeth. What is most likely is that one of the mainline shops gets the work and subcontracts certain pieces to local firms. That doesn’t mean that an outsider might not still be involved in the conceptual design.

Since we still have time to dream, dream big:
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/2645_MB58-01_9273.jpg
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/226_CO_080418_850_IB_PRI.jpg
http://image.digitalinsightresearch.in/uploads/imagelibrary/Archive/designcurial/Allianz_Arena_1366x768.jpg

Btw, what's the plan for the current Paycom Center? Please don't tell me it will be demolished.

first none of what you posted are indoor basketball arenas ..

second Paycom is almost certainly going to be demoed shortly after the new arena opens

To be clear, this ~$1 billion budget has carrying costs associated. The actual building itself will probably cost ~$600-700 million, which will certainly build a beautiful, spacious, highly-functional multipurpose arena but probably won’t unlock an art piece. Those seem to be in the $2B range these days.

the final budget could very well be 1.3 billion ... in which case the actually building might cost 1 billion

I can agree with some of those comments, I just don’t want to undercut our own talent here. I’ll lay my jersey on the coaches desk to give Rudy a chance to play.

The arenas they’ve mentioned publicly have been Chase Center and Fiserv Forum - designed by Gensler and Populous. I’d be very surprised if it’s not one of the big ones

first none of what you posted are indoor basketball arenas.

1) I understand; one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to know where and what each of those stadium is located and used for. What truly matters are the inspirations highlighted in this context. Believe it or not, I knew that someone would tell me those aren't not basketball venues later, but I was too lazy to elaborate.
2) Thanks. Demolishing Paycom Center is just a silly and wasteful thing to do if that eventually happens.

the final budget could very well be 1.3 billion ... in which case the actually building might cost 1 billion
That’s why I used the tilde…most likely will go over $1B total cost. Still unlikely to be an over-the-top art piece.

Hopefully/presumably the Paycom land will be valuable enough such that a mostly unused secondary arena is at the bottom of the list of best uses for the site and it can quickly be redeveloped into something great/be part of the overall mixed use development that will ideally be incorporated into the new arena.

To be clear, this ~$1 billion budget has carrying costs associated. The actual building itself will probably cost ~$600-700 million, which will certainly build a beautiful, spacious, highly-functional multipurpose arena but probably won’t unlock an art piece. Those seem to be in the $2B range these days.

Urbanized - do you know the average monthly dollar figure for MAPS portion of the sales tax? The agreement is to spend a minimum of $900M and the collection period is 72-months. Just curious what that number is projected to be at the end of the 72-month period.

Urbanized - do you know the average monthly dollar figure for MAPS portion of the sales tax? The agreement is to spend a minimum of $900M and the collection period is 72-months. Just curious what that number is projected to be at the end of the 72-month period.

I think the Maps tax is currently generating like $15 million per month.

With inflation and population growth, you could expect the tax to generate at least $20M/month, on average, during the six year arena collection period. Assuming there’s not a big recessionary period in there.

I think the Maps tax is currently generating like $15 million per month.

With inflation and population growth, you could expect the tax to generate at least $20M/month, on average, during the six year arena collection period. Assuming there’s not a big recessionary period in there.

The MAPS penny sales tax collection are about $15 million per month; using that conservative figure for 72 months, OKC collections could exceed 1.080 billion. We're looking at a possible surplus. Recall that based on MAPS 4 collections the city is projecting a $100 million surplus over its collection period. Source: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/local/oklahoma-city/2022/08/16/okc-maps-4-receive-100-million-inflation-sales-tax-growth/65404146007/

.

I can agree with some of those comments, I just don’t want to undercut our own talent here. I’ll lay my jersey on the coaches desk to give Rudy a chance to play.

We have no large scale architectural firms in the state. It's not like asking Rudy to step into the game. Rudy has actually played football before. It's more comparable to asking Rudy to step into the front seat of a 747 and fly a plane full of taxpayers across the country.

No.

Populous is the gold standard and I hope that's who we select.

https://populous.com/our-projects/arenas

I hope not, OK firms haven't got to that level yet. I guess it will be HOK, or Populus.

Populous = HOK https://populous.com/our-global-studio/our-history

As far as the GC goes though that could stay local. (to Oklahoma)

FlintCo is very capable for a project of this magnitude. https://flintco.com/our-work/markets/sports/

Would expect Manhattan Construction as well. https://manhattanconstructiongroup.com/

I think the Maps tax is currently generating like $15 million per month.

With inflation and population growth, you could expect the tax to generate at least $20M/month, on average, during the six year arena collection period. Assuming there’s not a big recessionary period in there.

$18M/Month avg. by the end of the 72-month period. Is that a fair estimate barring any recession or financial headwinds.

$1.3B collected
$70M from Maps 4
$50M Ownership contribution
$1.4B total

Lower than standard land cost based on the city holding the real estate on the targeted build site.

Not sure on a loan this size but 4-5% interest?

As has been, mentioned the city can move around budgets to fund various projects, to cover expenditures related to developing flagship developments. (Convention Center)

Additional vacant lots in the immediate vicinity that are privately held. The city has shown a willingness to provide aid and financial support in the downtown districts.

I feel like this set's up for an "art piece" level development.

Hopefully/presumably the Paycom land will be valuable enough such that a mostly unused secondary arena is at the bottom of the list of best uses for the site and it can quickly be redeveloped into something great/be part of the overall mixed use development that will ideally be incorporated into the new arena.

If anything, I think the development of Boulevard Place may be relocated to the Paycom site, and as a result, Omni may purchase the empty lot adjacent to it and save that for an expansion project.

I just think its funny how Boulevard Place developers have been sitting on their cards and getting more TIF funds allocated before the big vote to keep the Thunder in town. At this point you might as well assume they were in the know for some months before the initial announcement.

2) Thanks. Demolishing Paycom Center is just a silly and wasteful thing to do if that eventually happens.

Sure its a "first world problem", but there are just not a whole lot of financially practical applications for it after the new one gets built. We will also have a new state fair arena also. Paycom Center became a sunk cost as soon as the new arena was approved.

That’s why I used the tilde…most likely will go over $1B total cost. Still unlikely to be an over-the-top art piece.

"Iconic" was the promise, so as long as we get something that most of the public views as "iconic" then we got what we paid for. The discourse surrounding that design will hinge on that single word.

If anything, I think the development of Boulevard Place may be relocated to the Paycom site, and as a result, Omni may purchase the empty lot adjacent to it and save that for an expansion project.

I just think its funny how Boulevard Place developers have been sitting on their cards and getting more TIF funds allocated before the big vote to keep the Thunder in town. At this point you might as well assume they were in the know for some months before the initial announcement.

This makes no sense as a possibility, Boulevard Place is an OCURA selected project and there's zero chance the Omni would be allowed the buy the site instead to keep it as an empty lot as a just in case for the future.

"Iconic" was the promise, so as long as we get something that most of the public views as "iconic" then we got what we paid for. The discourse surrounding that design will hinge on that single word.

What you think is iconic is your own opinion and not a design standard. "Iconic" is nebulous and a matter of opinion.

Lots of people think that some things that are IMHO very average are "iconic". The term "iconic" is as definable as "world class". Does "iconic" mean designed like a traditional icon? Or futuristic as in an imaginary icon? Or just popular, which could be anything. Is iconic lots of curves and mirrors, or because of size, or odd shape, or... or... or.

Anybody with an opinion (and not necessarily taste or design sense) will have a take on whether what we get is "iconic". If we resort to the most popular and consensus, and too many people are involved in the design decisions, what we will get is the least common denominator and no one will be satisfied. We need to hire the best and most talented design firms, confirm our budgets to them and let them create the best possible building that reflects the aspirations of Oklahoma City.

"Iconic" was the promise, so as long as we get something that most of the public views as "iconic" then we got what we paid for. The discourse surrounding that design will hinge on that single word.
I certainly expect it to be striking, identifiable, and iconic would be a reasonable expectation. Just saying we need to temper expectations.

What you think is iconic is your own opinion and not a design standard. "Iconic" is nebulous and a matter of opinion.

Lots of people think that some things that are IMHO very average are "iconic". The term "iconic" is as definable as "world class". Does "iconic" mean designed like a traditional icon? Or futuristic as in an imaginary icon? Or just popular, which could be anything. Is iconic lots of curves and mirrors, or because of size, or odd shape, or... or... or.

Anybody with an opinion (and not necessarily taste or design sense) will have a take on whether what we get is "iconic". If we resort to the most popular and consensus, and too many people are involved in the design decisions, what we will get is the least common denominator and no one will be satisfied. We need to hire the best and most talented design firms, confirm our budgets to them and let them create the best possible building that reflects the aspirations of Oklahoma City.

Agreed...I'm just saying that we voted for "Iconic", and if the general public agrees that it is, we'll be in great shape. If the general public believes that it's a blase arena design, that will foster distrust with public officials.

If I had a seat at the table, I'd be advocating for an exterior design that departs from a lot of what we see in other arena designs. The public will care less about the internal design because that area does not really belong to the public (even if it does), and I would concern myself with this initial budget more in the external aesthetics than the internal ones. Obviously function is the presiding factor in all of the design choices, but having a statement piece/area inside the arena is less important up front than having something that calls our attention as a public art piece on the outside.

"Iconic" was the promise,

where was this "iconic" promise?

not on the ballot .. and not on the chamber website??

where was this "iconic" promise?

not on the ballot .. and not on the chamber website??

I believe the quote was from Clay Bennett. Why wouldn’t we expect “iconic”? Which iconic can be defined and a consensus established to validate that term. It’s not completely subjective as some might want you to believe.

Why can’t we set our expectations high? It could be close to $1.4B budget and the ownership contributions covering the interest cost to do this as a loan and not pre-funded.

I have a hard time understanding why others feel the need to temper expectations…

I believe the quote was from Clay Bennett. Why wouldn’t we expect “iconic”? Which iconic can be defined and a consensus established to validate that term. It’s not completely subjective as some might want you to believe.

Why can’t we set our expectations high? It could be close to $1.4B budget and the ownership contributions covering the interest cost to do this as a loan and not pre-funded.

I have a hard time understanding why others feel the need to temper expectations…

do you view this as iconic??

https://www.chasecenter.com/home

i don't but it is one of the nicest arenas in the country ..

do you view this as iconic??

https://www.chasecenter.com/home

i don't but it is one of the nicest arenas in the country ..

To be fair, it’s probably not iconic by San Francisco standards. However, there are elements that they preserved and improved upon from the old Oakland arena I find very impressive.


Now with that said. Take that same building reduce the number of suites (OKC based needs) and put that into the various design elements. Couple that with cheaper land and a much better opportunity to make it interactive with the surrounding area. I would say 100% it has the potential to be an iconic building for Oklahoma City.

I was recently in the Suns arena when the Thunder played in Phoenix. I would say the interior of that arena was extremely impressive after a $200M renovation.

I think a 160 story residential tower on top of the arena would be iconic. Make the exterior surface the worlds largest video board that flashes lightning bolts after every Thunder home win.

I think a 160 story residential tower on top of the arena would be iconic. Make the exterior surface the worlds largest video board that flashes lightning bolts after every Thunder home win.

When you consider there is $700M planned for the Dream Hotel/Boardwalk area you quickly exceed $2B. If the city is able to engineer interactive elements to that development and the arena you’ve got “art piece” level money. The renderings obviously show a commitment to video boards. lol

The Bean located in Millennium Park (Chicago) is considered an iconic art installation at a cost of $23M.

I’ll never understand the bean. I mean it’s a goddamn bean. Who the hell travels to see a bean. That one really gets to me. It almost makes me as mad as an unlocked footlocker. But you know that.

I’ll never understand the bean. I mean it’s a goddamn bean. Who the hell travels to see a bean. That one really gets to me. It almost makes me as mad as an unlocked footlocker. But you know that.

Plu - you’re not helping my point about subjectivity… ;)

Overall, I’m just saying the opportunity is there and we should keep our ambition’s high.

I’ll never understand the bean. I mean it’s a goddamn bean. Who the hell travels to see a bean. That one really gets to me. It almost makes me as mad as an unlocked footlocker. But you know that.

You don't travel to see it, you travel to flick it.

where was this "iconic" promise?

not on the ballot .. and not on the chamber website??

Obviously not on the ballot. This is from State of the City:


"The architectural ambitions of this new arena will exceed anything our residents have ever experienced. Remember the pride you felt seeing this convention center or Scissortail Park for the first time? This arena will meet that standard, and finally people will stand outside of our arena and marvel. This building will make a statement that we are truly prepared to be a top 20 city. And we are committed to using this arena to tell our city’s story and the story of its people. This won’t be a cookie cutter arena. This will be uniquely ours. The same thoughtfulness and care that the Thunder models in its community work will be reflected in this building.

The bar will also be raised inside the building. Obviously, the..."

Hey, I’m all for it. And I trust the mayor.

Plu - you’re not helping my point about subjectivity… ;)

Overall, I’m just saying the opportunity is there and we should keep our ambition’s high.


You don't travel to see it, you travel to flick it.
Idk if you’ve seen Ed Bassmaster on YouTube but I’ll inmate him and when I finally visit the bean I’ll walk around like a macho man and tell people I Chicago “psh, I’m not impressed at all. We got way better stuff than this in OKC my man.”

https://youtu.be/SPLoGKYYkso?si=vakQpGbyatm0l7ZW

Agreed...I'm just saying that we voted for "Iconic", and if the general public agrees that it is, we'll be in great shape. If the general public believes that it's a blase arena design, that will foster distrust with public officials.

If I had a seat at the table, I'd be advocating for an exterior design that departs from a lot of what we see in other arena designs. The public will care less about the internal design because that area does not really belong to the public (even if it does), and I would concern myself with this initial budget more in the external aesthetics than the internal ones. Obviously function is the presiding factor in all of the design choices, but having a statement piece/area inside the arena is less important up front than having something that calls our attention as a public art piece on the outside.
The iconic Eiffel Tower was considered an eyesore by the public of Paris when it was built and there was clamor for it to be torn down. The public’s opinion of what is iconic can be very flawed.

You don't travel to see it, you travel to flick it.

That's what she said.

Iconic is a strong word. It usually takes several years for something to be considered iconic. I'm sure whatever gets built will look great by Oklahoma standards. I wouldn't expect anything by Santiago Calatrava standards nor would we want to pay 2 billion for something elaborate

Idk if you’ve seen Ed Bassmaster on YouTube but I’ll inmate him and when I finally visit the bean I’ll walk around like a macho man and tell people I Chicago “psh, I’m not impressed at all. We got way better stuff than this in OKC my man.”

Would you just look at it.

Would you just look at it.
They probably would let you off it looked at it

Obviously not on the ballot. This is from State of the City:

do you view the okc Convention center as Iconic because all i see is a promise it will be to that standard ..

Originally Posted by Mayor David Holt
"The architectural ambitions of this new arena will exceed anything our residents have ever experienced. Remember the pride you felt seeing this convention center or Scissortail Park for the first time? This arena will meet that standard, and finally people will stand outside of our arena and marvel. This building will make a statement that we are truly prepared to be a top 20 city. And we are committed to using this arena to tell our city’s story and the story of its people. This won’t be a cookie cutter arena. This will be uniquely ours. The same thoughtfulness and care that the Thunder models in its community work will be reflected in this building.

The bar will also be raised inside the building. Obviously, the..."

In my view, Devon Tower and Myriad Gardens stand out as the sole world-class in terms of architecture. While Scissortail Park and the convention center are acceptable, I find the Omni and the new coliseum at OKC Fairgrounds rather uninspiring. While budget constraints are a factor, skilled architects can elevate design, and the public's taste plays a crucial role in determining the architectural standards that distinguish cities.

Idk if you’ve seen Ed Bassmaster on YouTube but I’ll inmate him and when I finally visit the bean I’ll walk around like a macho man and tell people I Chicago “psh, I’m not impressed at all. We got way better stuff than this in OKC my man.”

I once took a friend with me on a business trip to Lyon, France. I thought he would appreciate a weekend touring the incredible wine region, so I took him. After about two hours in incredible scenery and stopping at famous wineries, he stated that Arkansas wine region was better. I turned the car around and took him back to the hotel.

Years later he admitted that it wasn’t a very astute observation. Sometimes we favor the familiar things over the truly great things. But you have to know, and maybe experienced the difference to make a wise observation.


Everyone has an opinion, but not everyone has a design sense or appreciation of context.

I talked to Mayor Holt at the Grizzly game a couple nights ago. Briefly only about the arena vote, should have brought up the new arena though.

In my view, Devon Tower and Myriad Gardens stand out as the sole world-class in terms of architecture. While Scissortail Park and the convention center are acceptable, I find the Omni and the new coliseum at OKC Fairgrounds rather uninspiring. While budget constraints are a factor, skilled architects can elevate design, and the public's taste plays a crucial role in determining the architectural standards that distinguish cities.
The public taste level rarely is the design basis. Budgets, state of technology, other regional or local design influences, site selection, nearby assets (buildings, landscape, etc), use parameters, environment, etc. drive it much more. Trying to be iconic among the buildings in Singapore is way different than being locally or regionally iconic in OKC.