Ok- there are just too many posts to go back and scour, but I have two questions;

If the Cox site was chosen, where would Prairie Surf go?

And does the money that was earmarked for the Paycom shift into this or will they still use that to upgrade until the new arena opens?

Ok- there are just too many posts to go back and scour, but I have two questions;

If the Cox site was chosen, where would Prairie Surf go?

And does the money that was earmarked for the Paycom shift into this or will they still use that to upgrade until the new arena opens?

Yes, MAPS 4 money is reallocated to this project

Who owns the lot east of the Bricktown Ballpark? Is it the city? Or the owners of the Okc Dodgers? That seems like an interesting option.

The Cox site has been obsolete for a long time and was 100% superfluous when the new convention center opened.

Unless you actually walk around the perimeter of the building -- which I've done many times -- you don't realize what a completely dead, ugly, and barrier to movement it presents.

Even the few windows on the north and south elevations are black and you can't see in at all. We might as well have the county jail there, right in the center of billions of public and private investment.

I've also herd that structurally, the building is NOT great - basically hanging on by a thread

It really needs to be the Cox site. If a tunnel can be built that pours right into the canal, that would do so much for revitalizing the canal and Bricktown in general. Right now, Paycom feels disconnected from Bricktown, because theres a major street, a rail, and two parking lots on the east side of said road/rail that lead you to the lazy lower Bricktown area. Imagine people leaving the game and walking right into the upper canal, what that would do for development of upper Bricktown (and by extension, lower Bricktown).

Do we know what will happen with Prairie Surf? Any rumblings of a new building of their own? I'm not that familiar with how well they're doing financially, and if they have the investors to develop their own modern soundstage complex. It would be nice to keep Prairie Surf Studios sometime downtown, even though that Cox site really needs to go to the new arena.

Who owns the lot east of the Bricktown Ballpark? Is it the city? Or the owners of the Okc Dodgers? That seems like an interesting option.

The City owns that lot.

Who owns the lot east of the Bricktown Ballpark? Is it the city? Or the owners of the Okc Dodgers? That seems like an interesting option.

I don't want to force the relocation of the comedy club. It was hard enough for OKC to actually get a comedy club (and a very good one, with top-notch acts all the time). Now we want to make them move?

Nah. If they move, they may not re-open. They aren't super high-margin venues. Plus, that close to the Criterion? I don't know if that lot is even big enough, in the end.

Regarding Prairie Surf, they do not seem to be that busy, especially after Tulsa King left.

There are a handful of local companies that generate as much production, they are just in smaller facilities. As a reminder, the city's deal with PS is a money-loser, several hundred thousand a year.

The city has the right to turn out PS after the base term of 5 years, so they may need to buy them out (ironic because the city is already losing money) and get them to move on. Since the lease started in 2021, they have the right to be there through 2026 and obviously they would have to be long gone before demolition and construction could start.

Who owns the lot east of the Bricktown Ballpark? Is it the city? Or the owners of the Okc Dodgers? That seems like an interesting option.

there are a few issues with that lot ... 1 it is not big enough unless you ED all of the land to the north all the way to sheridan

2 the arena would then required to be brick ... and parking would also be a bigger issue .. then the cox site or west of the current arena ..

I don't want to force the relocation of the comedy club. It was hard enough for OKC to actually get a comedy club (and a very good one, with top-notch acts all the time). Now we want to make them move?

Nah. If they move, they may not re-open. They aren't super high-margin venues. Plus, that close to the Criterion? I don't know if that lot is even big enough, in the end.

The site is 3.5 additional acres than the paycom complex now.

Something that I just noticed when looking at the sample ballot is that they proposal by Councilman Cooper wasn't added to the info on the vote. Is there any indication on how that will be enforced?

Something that I just noticed when looking at the sample ballot is that they proposal by Councilman Cooper wasn't added to the info on the vote. Is there any indication on how that will be enforced?

I think since it's in city council minutes, it didn't need to be voted on. Just the sales tax initiative.

I think since it's in city council minutes, it didn't need to be voted on. Just the sales tax initiative.

It was only a non-binding resolution.

Of course, they have several years before anyone starts working at the new arena.

Regarding the finance discussion a page or two back...finance is a bit of a blind spot for me, but I would think this project would be a candidate for short term municipal bonds rather than a standard bank loan. And there are institutions who specialize in those.

Regarding the finance discussion a page or two back...finance is a bit of a blind spot for me, but I would think this project would be a candidate for short term municipal bonds rather than a standard bank loan. And there are institutions who specialize in those.

The City has used revenue bonds a lot in the past, but remember they require another public vote.

As I look at Pete's map of Myriad/Paycom/REHCO, I wonder if the arena being on the Myriad site would accelerate build out of the entire area? And how much would that development cost? As in, our billion dollar arena has jump started an additional two billion in construction by 2032?

Regarding location, while it was inadvisable for the City to pay for mood board type renderings - which drove so many here into apoplectic fits - the City was not quite as limited when it comes to the site selection. Meaning their hands were not tied as far behind their backs. While they couldn't hire an A&E firm just yet, they have entire departments dedicated to some of the tasks required when doing due diligence on property. They have already been doing a lot behind the scenes to vet the potential sites, and are probably pretty far along in determining various cost centers associated with each property. I'd expect the site selection to be made in the first few months of 2024.

The City has used revenue bonds a lot in the past, but remember they require another public vote.
That's a good point.

As I look at Pete's map of Myriad/Paycom/REHCO, I wonder if the arena being on the Myriad site would accelerate build out of the entire area? And how much would that development cost? As in, our billion dollar arena has jump started an additional two billion in construction by 2032?
Strong possibility that this will drive significant ancillary development, for sure.

That's a good point.

And that second votes runs the risk of confusing voters even more than this one did, and people being tired of voting on things to benefit the Thunder owners. A loan with a financial institution would be better, IMO.

^^^^^^
Clearly there would not be a circumstance whereby they would bring a bond vote to the public on this particular project. That said, I do suspect that there are municipal funding vehicles applicable here that are outside of the realm of traditional bank loans.

The City has used revenue bonds a lot in the past, but remember they require another public vote.

For having voted "No" on the arena, I would definitely vote "Yes" to Bond this project, that is our cleanest way to resolve this and likely the best rate we'll have access to.

Strong possibility that this will drive significant ancillary development, for sure.

That is what was said about sissortail and all we got was strawberry Fields for never.

That is what was said about sissortail and all we got was strawberry Fields for never.

I mean, I get it. I 100% get your point. But you can't let one fail like SF prevent you from ever moving forward. Scared money don't make money.

yes Robert Howard thunder part owner owns that site ... but he is not going to just "give it away"

In all honesty it would be the perfect ending if the city bought the site for say $100 million. I actually had no idea this was the case until now. Now I need to look into to see how true it is.

^^^^^^
Clearly there would not be a circumstance whereby they would bring a bond vote to the public on this particular project. That said, I do suspect that there are municipal funding vehicles applicable here that are outside of the realm of traditional bank loans.

You may be right because the proposition that was passed allows for expenses related to financing.

I'll ask Brent Bryant about this.

I would be willing to bet it will be MidFirst Bank. They may be the only Oklahoma City bank large enough to fund a loan like this. Or BOK. Can't just have any bank front $10's of millions. Only certain banks are even legally allowed to.

And I doubt they would use a Chase or Bank of America for them.

*deleted. Just saw my point on municipal bond issuance was already made*

You may be right because the proposition that was passed allows for expenses related to financing.

I'll ask Brent Bryant about this.

Yeah, sounds like the city is already covered based on how ballot was worded.

It really needs to be the Cox site. If a tunnel can be built that pours right into the canal, that would do so much for revitalizing the canal and Bricktown in general. Right now, Paycom feels disconnected from Bricktown, because theres a major street, a rail, and two parking lots on the east side of said road/rail that lead you to the lazy lower Bricktown area. Imagine people leaving the game and walking right into the upper canal, what that would do for development of upper Bricktown (and by extension, lower Bricktown).

Do we know what will happen with Prairie Surf? Any rumblings of a new building of their own? I'm not that familiar with how well they're doing financially, and if they have the investors to develop their own modern soundstage complex. It would be nice to keep Prairie Surf Studios sometime downtown, even though that Cox site really needs to go to the new arena.

Yes plus you have street car stop on both sides. You could have entrance on all 4 corners. Open up under the rail tracks like I think at one time was going to happen you would have 3 entry/exits going towards bricktown. it would be great.

Not that news 9 is the most credible source but they said the city manager has pointed to the former cox convention center as a possible site. If so it seems like it’s pretty much set.

https://www.news9.com/story/657a045045b5ed12f25211d0/city-alludes-to-possible-location-for-new-downtown-arena

I suppose the Ford site could work but I’d prefer a development that allowed for a pedestrian Paseo between the two parks. Not sure that’d be possible with an arena on it.

Not that news 9 is the most credible source but they said the city manager has pointed to the former cox convention center as a possible site. If so it seems like it’s pretty much set.

https://www.news9.com/story/657a045045b5ed12f25211d0/city-alludes-to-possible-location-for-new-downtown-arena

I suppose the Ford site could work but I’d prefer a development that allowed for a pedestrian Paseo between the two parks. Not sure that’d be possible with an arena on it.

He also said you don't run two arenas side by side, just in case anyone was still holding out hope that Paycom would not be demolished.

We ran two arenas side by side for decades. Arlington, Texas has 2 baseball stadiums next to each other.

He also said you don't run two arenas side by side, just in case anyone was still holding out hope that Paycom would not be demolished.
Who thinks Paycom won’t be demolished? I figured that was a given. Of course it’ll go. Too valuable land.

Paycom will 100% be demolished.

Paycom should be demolished. We already have a sparsely used hulk in Cox/Prairie Surf. We don't need another one. If we're breaking the bank I want to see the 3 blocks of Paycom/Cox/Ford lots completely redone and revitalized with stadiums and mixed/use development.

And the new arena will be on the cox location.

^^^^^^^
Like I keep saying, that’s not a given, no matter how many times folks here keep saying it. And again, for the record, that’s where I personally hope it goes.

^^^^^^^
Like I keep saying, that’s not a given, no matter how many times folks here keep saying it. And again, for the record, that’s where I personally hope it goes.
Do you have information that other sites are being considered? Are at liberty to disclose what possible sites they’re eyeing? I would think they’d only consider the Cox site because they own the land. I don’t see the people who own the Ford site giving it them cheap. That’d eat into a lot arena money. The city already owns the Cox site. It seems like a no brainer idk

Who thinks Paycom won’t be demolished? I figured that was a given. Of course it’ll go. Too valuable land.

That comment wasn't aimed at you. There has been a handful of people on here who thinks it shouldn't.

That comment wasn't aimed at you. There has been a handful of people on here who thinks it shouldn't.
When I initially heard the plan I was surprised they were taking paycom down. It’s certainly the right call

Do you have information that other sites are being considered? Are at liberty to disclose what possible sites they’re eyeing? I would think they’d only consider the Cox site because they own the land. I don’t see the people who own the Ford site giving it them cheap. That’d eat into a lot arena money. The city already owns the Cox site. It seems like a no brainer idk

The city manager himself said they will look at multiple sites. Reality its a short list of two. Its already been mention how they could make the Ford site work, either give them the money they want or a land swap.

Cox is challenge due to time, but I don't think its an impossible challenge. Not sure how much consulting with engineers has already been done. Its a big site after all, they could demolish one half and make their way around as they relocate utilities. The question is where exactly those important utilities run through the cox site.

We haven't really seen the difficulty quantified, we just know its more difficult than an open field.

SOMEbody has to vote for all the non-OKC citizens who have an opinion on this matter :wink:

As someone from Stillwater, I'm for OKC people to vote YES! And predicted before it passed that it would be passed. After all, it was advertised as no increase in taxes necessary and the last MAPS vote passed by 70% for a similar reason.

Pottawatomie County voting is cracking me up

No wonder why. Most rural Oklahoma people refuse to see big and awesome for their future! Or for your future! People like that do the most in trying to hold Oklahoma back from going bigger and better!

I would hate for the Ford site to be where the new arena goes. Cox is the best option because of the size and layout of the area as well as the city already owning it. Like Plutonic said, I hate how the Ford site is nothing but parking lots, but whatever is developed there needs to offer a smooth transition or passageway between the parks.

Yup, Cox site for sure. As for utilities, I would be surprised if that's actually a complex question. With there being an underground parking structure there (even if its only one level) it would not have made sense for any utilities to run directly under the parking. They are less accessible that way if there's an issue and it would have required more digging/etc. My bet is that the majority of them run on the peripheral like they would with any project. Sure we'll have some things like sewer that may have some lines under parking for drainage purposes, but that's got to be minimal.

What we have with the Cox site, is the opportunity to create not only an area, but a whole mixture of construction....think Brooklyn's arena area. We dont need the whole footprint since we're not also creating a convention center. But we can create residential or office or (insert idea here) on the land too. Selling some of the land for those ventures could help off-set the cost of the construction as well. It is prime downtown real estate after-all.

It seems to me there's a reasonable possibility that the Rehco site has not been developed in anticipation for this arena becuse they probably perceived the potential need for this to go on that site.

That being said, the layout of the arena there is a daunting task if there is any intention of keeping the Harvey Spine. It would definitely have to be a curved spine...

There are so many possibilities with the new arena being on the Prairie Surf Media site:


1. It's owned by the City (4 square blocks)
2. Room for the City to sell off surplus parcels on the site.
3. We're rewarded our city and our ownership with a new state of the art arena.
4. $900 million will ensure that the new arena will address Paycom Center deficiencies

This will be a game-changer for Oklahoma City. The decade from 2024-2034 Just think
about the projects planned and under construction for our City - Dream Hotel (220 rooms),
Unscripted Hotel (174 rooms), Convergence Full Service Hotel 107 keys and more.

The confidence boosts it will give to many projects planned for OKC's future mix.
.

It seems to me there's a reasonable possibility that the Rehco site has not been developed in anticipation for this arena becuse they probably perceived the potential need for this to go on that site...
I’ve alluded to this repeatedly in the thread about that property but nobody’s been picking up what I was laying down. The eventual need for the new arena has been known about in those circles for more than a decade.

One thing I genuinely hope they include in this design is that the portion of the site closest to the convention center be engineered for a 15+ story tower to be added on later. I think hotel would make the most sense, but it could be full mixed use as well. For reference OMNi is 17 stories @ 605 rooms.

Anyway you slice it, we do need more rooms closer to the Convention center, so to not get at least 200 rooms.out of this site (even if not by the time the arena opens) would be a wasted opportunity.

Based upon what I’m reading in this thread I don’t think folks fully understand the extent of the utilities underneath cox/prairie surf. It’s also important to understand that the HVAC going to Paycom runs through that building, and will have to be relocated before demolition.

To be clear, these things will have to happen anyway. Even if there is a land swap, demo of Prairie Surf will be the ultimate outcome, since PS would almost certainly be a part of the swap, and demo would be a par of the deal.

But relocation of utilities plus demo will put the project a full year or more behind an already-scraped site. With such a tight timeline this is absolutely a consideration. Not saying it precludes the PS site; in fact I still believe it’s the front runner and that it absolutely SHOULD be the front runner, for a number of DIFFERENT reasons. But there’s still an incredibly strong possibility that it goes elsewhere, due (among other things) to the time factor.

^

The demo and related work could run concurrently with the design and building plans, as those are going to take at least a year anyway.

To be clear, these things will have to happen anyway. Even if there is a land swap, demo of Prairie Surf will be the ultimate outcome, since PS would almost certainly be a part of the swap, and demo would be a par of the deal.


Hate being 'that guy', but one could the argue we should have started this prep work immediately after the new convention center was built, but I know that takes money.

The sooner we start digging trenches on Robison for new utilities, the better.

One thing I genuinely hope they include in this design is that the portion of the site closest to the convention center be engineered for a 15+ story tower to be added on later. I think hotel would make the most sense, but it could be full mixed use as well. For reference OMNi is 17 stories @ 605 rooms.

Anyway you slice it, we do need more rooms closer to the Convention center, so to not get at least 200 rooms.out of this site (even if not by the time the arena opens) would be a wasted opportunity.

Maybe this is what could be done with the Paycom site. If it was another Omni, it could be integrated with the current hotel creating a natural flow from the convention center to the hotels to the arena and then into bricktown, especially if there was some street facing restaurants / retail in the new development(s).

Pete and others who know the answer, my apologies because I’ve asked this before in another context and one of you answered but I can’t remember the answer: Am I remembering correctly that there was discussion many years ago about building something on the Rehco site but there was concern about the water table and the effect on construction? I distinctly remember *something* proposed downtown allegedly being affected by the water table.

^

The demo and related work could run concurrently with the design and building plans, as those are going to take at least a year anyway.
Definitely can be (and is) a part of any calculation.

Listen, I’m not championing any site other than PS. I’m just repeating what’s been shared to me by folks very close to this effort. I’m cautioning folks here they should be prepared for it to possibly go in a different direction. It’s not as cut-and-dried as folks here seem to think.

Do I think it will go on the Cox/PS site? Yeah, probably. It’s the best site for the city, and for the City. It’s the best site for Bricktown. Honestly, I think it’s the best site for the Thunder. Like I said, it’s the one I’m rooting for. But I’m also prepared for it to land elsewhere, because I fully understand that there is a real chance of this happening. I’d recommend everyone else keep that possibility open in their minds, too.

As a reminder, nearly a year ago - long before the LOI was announced, when folks on this board were arguing about whether the building would be 300 or 400 million dollars - I stated here unequivocally that it would be around a billion. People thought I was talking out of my ass. What I’m saying is that I have a fair bit of insight into this particular ongoing process.

Let the process play out.

I know the City has been looking at the Cox site a long time and I'm sure they have sketched out a plan.

At the same time, you could see where the REHCO site would be the backup.


Craig Freeman: “It doesn’t make sense to run two arenas next to each other especially in a market our size,” he said.

So, we're going to demolish Paycom but not Cox? Of course not -- It has to be demolished anyway.

Definitely, Cox will be demolished no matter what. And so will Paycom. Two things that I’ve also been saying in this thread for a very long time. Only a few things about this project are a certainty at this point, but those two things ARE certain.

So at least one large building will have to be demolish not directly tied to the arena either through construction or a land swap deal. I guess the city will have to find another funding source for that?

I love the discussion here, but am I the only one that thinks both the PS and REHCO sites have positives? PS has the connectivity to Bricktown/CBD and REHCO can help bridge connectivity between CBD and Scissortail/Convention Center. Also, in the end they are both very close to one another and don't really think either would be a bad choice.

Based upon what I’m reading in this thread I don’t think folks fully understand the extent of the utilities underneath cox/prairie surf. It’s also important to understand that the HVAC going to Paycom runs through that building, and will have to be relocated before demolition.

To be clear, these things will have to happen anyway. Even if there is a land swap, demo of Prairie Surf will be the ultimate outcome, since PS would almost certainly be a part of the swap, and demo would be a par of the deal.

Just thinking out loud, but if its built on REHCO and Paycom is the land swap, and is demolished after the new arena is built, the HVAC won't ever need to be relocated, correct?