Why does a mega block make the most sense to the urban fabric in such an important area of the city? I don't buy that at all. It would make the most sense in Strawberry Fields or Coop where the industrial portion of the arena is tucked against the highway and the "public"/entertainment area leads out into an organically developed entertainment district. I know it would be nice to think that Bricktown should just be that district, so just use that, but the loading docks and mechanical sections of the facade are damaging to the urban fabric. If I need to cross the Cox at any point in time, I'm 100% jumping in the car and while we could.potentially remedy some of that through design, we're guaranteed to chew up a portion of the fabric for arena-only functions.

Which leads to the idea of putting it East of Joe Carter and West of Lincoln. It would require significantly less demo (IHOP, OK Ranch, Brewer Entertainment and OK Compassion Clinic and Emerald Film Systems) and address a lot of the issues you mention while adding to the fabric of Bricktown and make it even easier to add hotels, restaurants, shopping and more surrounding.

Totally believe it will go on Cox site but this area would be a good area as well.

So regarding site cleanup, How bad is the lumbermill site vs the co-op? City could just buy and cleanup some of the northern parts of the co-op site.

They were super close to Eminent Domain on the property when the city learned what they were asking for was really not that far off

The City started eminent domain but then dropped it when it became clear the court-appointed commissioners would come in with a valuation very close to what the owners demanded, which was like triple what the City was willing to pay.

That was for the convention center with a limited budget, so the City pulled out.

But now we are talking about a billion+ budget with minimal site work required, as opposed to the old Cox Center, which presents all types of headaches (demolition, underground parking, HVAC infrastructure).

It's possible the City could only take part of the REHCO/MidtownR site, let them develop the balance and then give them the Paycom site for future development; and/or give them the rights to develop the old Cox site.

Having said all that, I would be hugely disappointed if the Prairie Surf/Cox structure didn't come down as part of all the reshuffling. People complain about the big surface lot but that old Myriad is exponentially worse IMO. A huge Soviet-style concrete monolith right in the middle of the CBD; it's basically a 50' walled-in superblock. So incredibly bad for downtown.

Build it on the old Ford site between Myriad Gardens and Scissortail Park. That lot is such an eyesore

If I were king of OKC, I would...

-put the new arena on the old Ford site
-ensure the architechts work the connection of the two parks into the design
-demolish Paycom Center and build a year-round entertainment plaza/Thunder alley
-private development of Cox Center lot

Hey Pete,
Is the REHCO site still owned by Bob Howard and Fred Jones? And if so, is that Bob Howard the same Robert Howard II that is one of the owners of Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Thunder owners)? It seems if that was the case, then that would likely make the REHCO site perhaps less complicated to negotiate this time. Or maybe not, just an interesting wrinkle if so.

Having said all that, I would be hugely disappointed if the Prairie Surf/Cox structure didn't come down as part of all the reshuffling. People complain about the big surface lot but that old Myriad is exponentially worse IMO. A huge Soviet-style concrete monolith right in the middle of the CBD; it's basically a 50' walled-in superblock. So incredibly bad for downtown.

Agreed, I don't want to see a scenario where we end up with a net gain of 1 superblock.

I know the votes aren't even fully certified, but I am curious what the next steps will be. Like, when will the deciding the site be (I presume that will be the first step, then basing designs off that)? Or will they reverse that order? I am excited the citizens saw through the BS and realized that, while not a great deal, the info presented by "Buy your own arena" people was lies at worst, half-truths at best ($1,300 per person, not accounting for non-citizens paying some of the tax, as well).

They probably realize that suburban cities of OKC will pay a lot of the tax along with those from out of town. But sure didn't include those numbers in their literature.

This is the updated arena budget.

The OKC Director of Finance said in September that they expect to collect a minimum of $976 million in sales tax over that six-year period.

It was also recently disclosed that the MAPS 4 funds for the arena have increased to $75 million.

So, at a minimum (in millions):

$976 sales tax collection
$75 MAPS 4
$50 Owners
$1,101 Total Budget


But based on my calcs from extrapolating sales tax numbers from historical trends, there will be another $128 million bringing the total to $1,229,000,000. And that number could go higher, especially if City-owned land is used or swapped, as that value would also have to be included.

They probably realize that suburban cities of OKC will pay a lot of the tax along with those from out of town. But sure didn't include those numbers in their literature.

I hate to "both sides" this but there was a heck of a lot of obfuscation from both sides. Such as...anyone here willing to bet me $200 that the final cost of this project is not well well north of $900 million?

I hate to "both sides" this but there was a heck of a lot of obfuscation from both sides. Such as...anyone here willing to bet me $200 that the final cost of this project is not well well north of $900 million?

See the amended budget above. The City already knew the increased budget before the campaign.

See the amended budget above. The City already knew the increased budget before the campaign.

Which was also not a secret, ploy or any other backhanded attempt to conceal from voters. That has been the budget since the beginning.

The LOI and all of the comms quite clearly said a MINIMUM of $900 million. No obfuscation in that instance whatsoever.

Great job OKC - excited to see what the new arena looks like.

Which was also not a secret, ploy or any other backhanded attempt to conceal from voters. That has been the budget since the beginning.

And they are limited to a term of 6 years for sales tax collections. If they see an issue with the budget early, they will have to get creative with land swap deals which is technically an increase in cost, but I don't think many residents care too much about that. So hopefully 1.1 billion dollars gets us the arena we want.

There is so much that we still don't know:

Design/scope
Location
Cost of property acquisition
Additional development/amenities
Cost of borrowing funds up front

We won't know much for a year, minimum. So let the speculation run rampant. Lol

They are going to have to get moving. The stated goal is to be open by the end of the decade, so really only 5 years to pull all this together and get the doors open.

I'm 100% sure they have already had discussions about the site and probably have had Populus give them some basic design ideas.

My guess is they are looking at both the Cox site and the lot between the two parks. After getting burned on the convention center and having to start all over at square one, I'm sure there is a preferred site plus a contingency plan.

They are also going to have to start working on financing this whole project with money upfront because it will be open at least 5 years before all the sales tax is collected (2034).

Was watching the news last night and they were interviewing one of the opponents and he was saying "Yeah the citizens of OKC really got a bad deal on this, the Thunder were never going to leave anyway". Like okay bud, you keep believing that...

Hey Pete,
Is the REHCO site still owned by Bob Howard and Fred Jones? And if so, is that Bob Howard the same Robert Howard II that is one of the owners of Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Thunder owners)? It seems if that was the case, then that would likely make the REHCO site perhaps less complicated to negotiate this time. Or maybe not, just an interesting wrinkle if so.

I'm not Pete, but I think you are correct that they are the same person.

I think that land is going to be part of the overall development.

Was watching the news last night and they were interviewing one of the opponents and he was saying "Yeah the citizens of OKC really got a bad deal on this, the Thunder were never going to leave anyway". Like okay bud, you keep believing that...

Let's please move past the election; the entire lead-up was ugly and contentious. It's over now, and fortunately it was a very decisive outcome so no need to keep rehashing the campaign and related politics.

Also, there won't be another MAPS for at least 10 years so let's concentrate on the arena itself.

Any posts about the election will be deleted.

They are going to have to get moving. The stated goal is to be open by the end of the decade, so really only 5 years to pull all this together and get the doors open.

I'm 100% sure they have already had discussions about the site and probably have had Populus give them some basic design ideas.

My guess is they are looking at both the Cox site and the lot between the two parks. After getting burned on the convention center and having to start all over at square one, I'm sure there is a preferred site plus a contingency plan.

They are also going to have to start working on financing this whole project with money upfront because it will be open at least 5 years before all the sales tax is collected (2034).

I'm very curious to see the potential designs they come up with, but I really hope we don't end up with a massive super block between the two parks. It is unpleasant to walk between the two now, and I am very eager to see the land developed, but unless there would be a creative design aspect I feel like an arena would disrupt the continuity of the two even more than it is now. Seems better suited for a large (high-rise?) mixed use development instead...

Potential sites would include:

1. Cox Site (choice 1A demo and lease issues)
2. Strawberry Fields (messy land acquisition and far from existing restaurants and bars and CBD)
3. Rehco (site 1B easy demo .. not far from everything (would likely require a land swap) )
4. Producers Coop (cost and clean up issues)
5. Lower Parkside (not enough space)
6. Somewhere Riverside (to far from CBD)



for my money it is with
cox or REHCO that is it

I'm very curious to see the potential designs they come up with, but I really hope we don't end up with a massive super block between the two parks. It is unpleasant to walk between the two now, and I am very eager to see the land developed, but unless there would be a creative design aspect I feel like an arena would disrupt the continuity of the two even more than it is now. Seems better suited for a large (high-rise?) mixed use development instead...

If it does go on that parcel, you may remember that the preliminary designs for the convention center went to great lengths to preserve the "Harvey Spine". I'm not sure how important that is considering Devon is right in the middle and a good deal of the time you can't pass through the rotunda (on Harvey) anyway.

But I would hope they would find a way to link the two parks that did not involve an enclosed structure, as more often than not they are locked up.

Again, I'm more worried about leaving the Cox Center which would be a great travesty IMO. That place should have been torn down a long time ago and if not now, when?

Hey Pete,
Is the REHCO site still owned by Bob Howard and Fred Jones? And if so, is that Bob Howard the same Robert Howard II that is one of the owners of Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Thunder owners)? It seems if that was the case, then that would likely make the REHCO site perhaps less complicated to negotiate this time. Or maybe not, just an interesting wrinkle if so.

yes Robert Howard thunder part owner owns that site ... but he is not going to just "give it away"

If it does go on that parcel, you may remember that the preliminary designs for the convention center went to great lengths to preserve the "Harvey Spine". I'm not sure how important that is considering Devon is right in the middle and a good deal of the time you can't pass through the rotunda (on Harvey) anyway.

But I would hope they would find a way to link the two parks that did not involve an enclosed structure, as more often than not they are locked up.

Again, I'm more worried about leaving the Cox Center which would be a great travesty IMO. That place should have been torn down a long time ago and if not now, when?

yes a land swap is fine with me as long as it includes the demo of COX ASAP >>>>

Let's please move past the election; the entire lead-up was ugly and contentious. It's over now, and fortunately it was a very decisive outcome so no need to keep rehashing the campaign and related politics.

Also, there won't be another MAPS for at least 10 years so let's concentrate on the arena itself.

Any posts about the election will be deleted.

We can’t talk about an election that happened yesterday?

Just remembered the Crystal Bridge is part of the Harvey Spine and you can't pass through there, either.

I could see the arena at the west end of the REHCO property, a pedestrian plaza to the east and then commercial development on the far east end of the property to bridge into the likely redevelopment of the Paycom site.

All of that said, the Prairie Surf site makes the most sense for the City and for the urban fabric, and the giant site offers much more co-development and integrated mixed use opportunity.

This is what I am hoping for, and is what I talked with Mayor Holt when I briefly chatted with him at Boomtown a few weeks ago.

There is so much that we still don't know:

Design/scope
Location
Cost of property acquisition
Additional development/amenities
Cost of borrowing funds up front

Do we have any idea what vehicles they are planning to pursue for this? If a bank is involved, I think the city should refrain from engaging any banks that have major personal ties to the Thunder. If this project experiences any degree of difficulty financially then I think the public will lose trust in general, but it will be multiplied exponentially if Thunder Owners are making money 2nd hand from loan interest.

Really hope it’s cox/prairie surf as it kills multiple birds with one stone and the other options really don’t. I think it’s 20+ years away from being privately redeveloped (or at least development of the entire superblock is) based on all the changes that resulted from Covid and this along with any peripheral developments reactivate that block and solve the problem almost immediately. That said, at this point I’m just happy it’s happening.

Do we have any idea what vehicles they are planning to pursue for this? If a bank is involved, I think the city should refrain from engaging any banks that have major personal ties to the Thunder. If this project experiences any degree of difficulty financially then I think the public will lose trust in general, but it will be multiplied exponentially if Thunder Owners are making money 2nd hand from loan interest.

I would be willing to bet it will be MidFirst Bank. They may be the only Oklahoma City bank large enough to fund a loan like this. Or BOK. Can't just have any bank front $10's of millions. Only certain banks are even legally allowed to.

And I doubt they would use a Chase or Bank of America for them.

These are the sites we have been discussing:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco121323b.jpg

These are the sites we have been discussing:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco121323b.jpg


Between these sites, it should go on the Cox site. For the reasons mentioned above and because it also brings more evening utility to a N/S Commuter Rail line.

I would be willing to bet it will be MidFirst Bank. They may be the only Oklahoma City bank large enough to fund a loan like this. Or BOK. Can't just have any bank front $10's of millions. Only certain banks are even legally allowed to.

And I doubt they would use a Chase or Bank of America for them.

Haven’t studied the state’s Energy Discrimination Elimination Act that hard, but it would likely prevent the city from using a number of the larger national banks. I’m almost certain Chase is on the list.

Between these sites, it should go on the Cox site. For the reasons mentioned above and because it also brings more evening utility to a N/S Commuter Rail line.

I would love to see the Cox Site selected. I feel like it makes the most sense based on the central location and the opportunity to develop around it's location.

It would be amazing if they're able to building some sort of pedestrian structure above E.K. Gaylord and the Amtrak tracks. Have that touch down and interact with the canal bringing a real connection to bricktown and the CBD.

^

The Cox site would also provide a great bridge into Bricktown, and that's another reason I strongly prefer it.

Haven’t studied the state’s Energy Discrimination Elimination Act that hard, but it would likely prevent the city from using a number of the larger national banks. I’m almost certain Chase is on the list.

Yep the big 3 are all on that list: Wells, JPM, BOA

^

The Cox site would also provide a great bridge into Bricktown, and that's another reason I strongly prefer it.

Agreed. I feel like it would also make the botanical gardens feel more connected as well. It would be great for a ton of reasons honestly.

Why does the EDEA come into play here? Why would it affect the financial affairs of the city?

The cox site is also across the street from the train station that will (eventually, hopefully) serve commuter rail.

Haven’t studied the state’s Energy Discrimination Elimination Act that hard, but it would likely prevent the city from using a number of the larger national banks. I’m almost certain Chase is on the list.

i don' think that has any effect on the CITY of OKC

I can see it now. Cut back from a commercial break: "Welcome back to the Oklahoma State Fair and OKC Thunder Basketball." I am sure the other Oklahoma state fair will love this idea.
I wonder if that is what is said for San Antonio Spurs broadcasts?

I've deleted several posts on this thread.

NO MORE ELECTION OR POLITICAL TALK!


I'm going to start handing out temporary bans for those who won't move on.

I would love to see the Cox Site selected. I feel like it makes the most sense based on the central location and the opportunity to develop around it's location.

It would be amazing if they're able to building some sort of pedestrian structure above E.K. Gaylord and the Amtrak tracks. Have that touch down and interact with the canal bringing a real connection to bricktown and the CBD.

A tunnel underneath the train tracks was proposed awhile back. It just didn't get funded. The recent west end canal renovation was done with that tunnel in mind. Right now the staircase leads to a wall.

If there was an actual destination, this tunnel would get built.

i don' think that has any effect on the CITY of OKC

It does. The law had flow-down impacts as cities are creations of the state.

Prairie Surf is my favorite option because not only cause I'd like for it to get torn down but it also leaves the opportunity for high rise development on the REHCO property to fill in the skyline gap between Devon and BOK. Not complaining about any option they choose cause I'm just so happy it's happening!!

I just worry about moving the arena farther from Bricktown.

We don't need to try and create yet another entertainment district; we need to better bridge the things we do have and stop spreading ourselves so thin all the time. Makes it very hard to create critical mass in a city with no true center and I've been saying this for decades.

Bricktown should be awesome and not only that, it gives visitors a place to go and walk around. That already happens to a fair degree but we need to finally get that canal to the place it should be.

I just worry about moving the arena farther from Bricktown.

We don't need to try and create yet another entertainment district; we need to better bridge the things we do have and stop spreading ourselves so thin all the time. Makes it very hard to create critical mass in a city with no true center and I've been saying this for decades.


Bricktown should be awesome and not only that, it gives visitors a place to go and walk around. That already happens to a fair degree but we need to finally get that canal to the place it should be.

Thanks for putting that to words so well... that helps me form my opinion more clearly. Bricktown is so impressive and holds so much of the city's charm.

I still like the Cox site. Why create a second super block on the RECOH site?

I just worry about moving the arena farther from Bricktown.

We don't need to try and create yet another entertainment district; we need to better bridge the things we do have and stop spreading ourselves so thin all the time. Makes it very hard to create critical mass in a city with no true center and I've been saying this for decades.

Bricktown should be awesome and not only that, it gives visitors a place to go and walk around. That already happens to a fair degree but we need to finally get that canal to the place it should be.

I know it is not going to be on this site but that is why I mentioned up thread that putting the arena in East Bricktown would be a huge win as well.

I just worry about moving the arena farther from Bricktown.

We don't need to try and create yet another entertainment district; we need to better bridge the things we do have and stop spreading ourselves so thin all the time. Makes it very hard to create critical mass in a city with no true center and I've been saying this for decades.

Bricktown should be awesome and not only that, it gives visitors a place to go and walk around. That already happens to a fair degree but we need to finally get that canal to the place it should be.

This. And very well put. The COX site best unifies the entertainment areas already existing. Solidifying one area as the downtown entertainment destination. I hope, and believe, the city decision makers think this also.

I would be willing to bet it will be MidFirst Bank. They may be the only Oklahoma City bank large enough to fund a loan like this. Or BOK. Can't just have any bank front $10's of millions. Only certain banks are even legally allowed to.

And I doubt they would use a Chase or Bank of America for them.

I know someone who makes big loans for MidFirst. With a project this size they normally partner with several other banks to spread out the risk. Of course he does commercial lending so it might be different in the case of a municipal loan.

There are also a ton of hotels in Bricktown (11 + several more just to the east) and those in the CBD would still be very close to Cox: Skirvin, Colcord, National, Sheraton, Wyndham, Courtyard; even the Omni and Fairfield are just a block away. And of course, the Boardwalk at Bricktown would be close to the Cox as well.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena121323a.jpg

Do we have any idea when the location of the new arena will be selected?

Do we have any idea when the location of the new arena will be selected?

It almost has to happen sometime next year.

It takes a long time to finalize the design, draw up all the construction docs, and then build something this large and elaborate elaborate.

I know someone who makes big loans for MidFirst. With a project this size they normally partner with several other banks to spread out the risk. Of course he does commercial lending so it might be different in the case of a municipal loan.

Me too, it is called syndicated lending. Five banks partner together and each has a chunk of the loan with one lead bank. This is not to be confused with participation lending.

If it does go on that parcel, you may remember that the preliminary designs for the convention center went to great lengths to preserve the "Harvey Spine". I'm not sure how important that is considering Devon is right in the middle and a good deal of the time you can't pass through the rotunda (on Harvey) anyway.

But I would hope they would find a way to link the two parks that did not involve an enclosed structure, as more often than not they are locked up.

Again, I'm more worried about leaving the Cox Center which would be a great travesty IMO. That place should have been torn down a long time ago and if not now, when?

Pete,

Can you make the case on why the Cox Center should be torn down? It is just old or is that the curb appeal is it out of fashion?

It almost has to happen sometime next year.

It takes a long time to finalize the design, draw up all the construction docs, and then build something this large and elaborate elaborate.

Here is the schedule for the Fairgrounds Coliseum.

Keep in mind, they already had and controlled the site, they had a ton of lead-up and design time before this version was published (they had proposed various designs as much as two years before this), the site was very easy and straightforward, AND even though this schedule was shared right before the start date, they *still* missed groundbreaking by over 6 months. On top of all that, they already had MAPS 3 money to spend and were moved up to first in line for MAPS 4, so the big financing issue for the arena was never a factor here.

They want the new arena to be open no later than 2029 and prefer 2028. They have to get moving *now* and I'm sure they've done a lot of prep work but they really can't spend any money on designs until the site is finalized and they get their financing in order.

So, before they can even start any of the steps shown below, they have to decide on a site which almost certainly is going to be complicated, just with negotiations and then figuring out what would be required at that site.

Realistically, to be open before 2030, they have five years to get this done to provide for the inevitable slippage.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122o.jpg

Pete,

Can you make the case on why the Cox Center should be torn down? It is just old or is that the curb appeal is it out of fashion?

Not Pete, but yes to both. Plus, it operates at a lost. City justifies that by saying we need to grow film industry.

The Cox site has been obsolete for a long time and was 100% superfluous when the new convention center opened.

Unless you actually walk around the perimeter of the building -- which I've done many times -- you don't realize what a completely dead, ugly, and barrier to movement it presents.

Even the few windows on the north and south elevations are black and you can't see in at all. We might as well have the county jail there, right in the center of billions of public and private investment.