Got an anti-arena text from the OKC chapter of BLM. Interesting.

The difference between liberals and progressives is that one side understands and accepts that there are trade offs in life and chooses to operate within that reality.

Do we know why OKC BLM is anti arena?

Do we know why OKC BLM is anti arena?

The poster indicated the flyer came from Black Votes Matter. The question is, is this an actual group or is it disinformation?

The poster indicated the flyer came from Black Votes Matter. The question is, is this an actual group or is it disinformation?

You are correct. I just noticed it was BVM. Not sure why they are anti, or if they truly are, just another group trying to spur no votes.

The poster indicated the flyer came from Black Votes Matter. The question is, is this an actual group or is it disinformation?

gotcha

Arrived at the County Election Board for the 8 a.m., opening, there were about 15 people inside filling out the green sheet you complete before they hand you a ballot.

Going to check back with friends and relatives who haven't voted; just in case someone needs a ride to the CEB.

The difference between liberals and progressives is that one side understands and accepts that there are trade offs in life and chooses to operate within that reality.

This is condescending. There are plenty of good reasons to vote for or against this proposal. You don't have to create some rationale that you're an enlightened "progressive" and they're naive "liberals" just because you disagree with someone else. It's also a weird way to use those terms that most people wouldn't recognize.

The most annoying aspect of this this thread is so many people's general unwillingness to listen to informed arguments without feeling the need to manufacture some unnecessary rationalization for their wrongness. There's a lot of fair points that people revolt against just because it doesn't agree with their conclusion. If you're going to join in a democratic discussion then at least make an attempt to recognize your motivated reasoning/confirmation bias.

#6 flyer in today's mail

One of the arguments I'm now seeing put forth is that this is taking money out of MAPS4 and therefore MAPS4 money will no longer go toward O&M of the existing projects being built, which will now fall on nonprofits. That isn't true, is it? I thought MAPS4 had a separate trust built into it to support long-term maintenance after lessons learned from prior MAPS? So much misinformation abounds....

One of the arguments I'm now seeing put forth is that this is taking money out of MAPS4 and therefore MAPS4 money will no longer go toward O&M of the existing projects being built, which will now fall on nonprofits. That isn't true, is it? I thought MAPS4 had a separate trust built into it to support long-term maintenance after lessons learned from prior MAPS? So much misinformation abounds....

Not one bit. Only $70 million meant to upgrade the Paycom is going to be deferred to the new arena. Nothing else will be impacted.

Some things you read are fair to chalk up to misinformation, while others fall more into the realm of DISinformation. Items such as the one paraphrased above would likely fall into the latter category.

I think everybody can agree that financial reports have never shown stadiums to be good public investments. It’s also ok to acknowledge that ownership is putting a pretty raw deal out there (5%). Even so it’s ok to know all of that and not care because you’d like your tax dollars to go to a new shiny arena because you love the Thunder, the concerts, the added entertainment and development downtown. I’lll happily pay my tax dollars towards a cooler city

The GM of the Paycom center was on the Animal this afternoon. Talking about the current state of booking concerts. The promoters look at regions and book x number of venues in that region based on what venues stand to do best for their client. Paycom doesn't rate well by that standard. Hadn't heard it put that way before. He also pointed out the loading dock problem. Drake for instance will have double digit trailers. I think he said 14. The rock area can only accommodate 4. So 10 have to unload and go park somewhere else.
They asked what plan B was if this doesn't pass. There was a long pause before he said "There is no plan B".
Vote yes!!!

I think everybody can agree that financial reports have never shown stadiums to be good public investments. It’s also ok to acknowledge that ownership is putting a pretty raw deal out there (5%). Even so it’s ok to know all of that and not care because you’d like your tax dollars to go to a new shiny arena because you love the Thunder, the concerts, the added entertainment and development downtown. I’lll happily pay my tax dollars towards a cooler city

That's what's interesting about economic professors speaking for all taxpayers by stating that the investment provides "far too little benefit in return" without going into much detail why. Taxpayers are voting for what they want to improve the quality of living which is why that's a major benefit.

Some things you read are fair to chalk up to misinformation, while others fall more into the realm of DISinformation. Items such as the one paraphrased above would likely fall into the latter category.

I am seeing a lot of social media comments on the topic continuing to cite that voting YES will cost OKC residents $1600 each. Which of course, is entirely inaccurate.

This is across all platforms from reddit to Facebook and IG.

I am seeing a lot of social media comments on the topic continuing to cite that voting YES will cost OKC residents $1600 each. Which of course, is entirely inaccurate.

This is across all platforms from reddit to Facebook and IG.

It seems social media comment threads on any city development post are laughably full of complaints over false information lol. I swear it's someone's job to spread rumors like that.

In and out early vote in 3 minutes
They said they have had a steady stream all day.

In and out early vote in 3 minutes
They said they have had a steady stream all day.I'm off tomorrow so I'm going in the morning.

I am seeing a lot of social media comments on the topic continuing to cite that voting YES will cost OKC residents $1600 each. Which of course, is entirely inaccurate.

This is across all platforms from reddit to Facebook and IG.

the general populace is both very ignorant and/or very stupid. You can usually bet on it lol. Social media giving all the stupid people a louder voice has made that painfully obvious ;)

I heard an economist say that the Thunder salaries was included which skews the income generation of a new arena.

He must not realize that ALL NBA players pay Oklahoma state income tax every time they come to town. This includes coaches and team owners too.

LeBron Makes $ 590,000.00 a GAME. He pays into the Oklahoma state coffers at 4.75%. That's $28,000 a pop.

So we have about 435 players (not counting Thunder) that pay Oklahoma state tax. Labron is the highest paid player in the league but all players make great income.

It may come as a shock but JoBeth Hamon announced on Twitter that she’s voting no.

It may come as a shock but JoBeth Hamon announced on Twitter that she’s voting no.

Shocker. Methinks she would fit better on the Berkeley city council.

I heard an economist say that the Thunder salaries was included which skews the income generation of a new arena.

He must not realize that ALL NBA players pay Oklahoma state income tax every time they come to town. This includes coaches and team owners too.

LeBron Makes $ 590,000.00 a GAME. He pays into the Oklahoma state coffers at 4.75%. That's $28,000 a pop.

So we have about 435 players (not counting Thunder) that pay Oklahoma state tax. Labron is the highest paid player in the league but all players make great income.
I think I saw the same interview. If so, that guy was an absolute potato. For a trained (?) economist, I expected better.

Shocker. Methinks she would fit better on the Berkeley city council.

if only it gauranteed a bus stop would be included.

It may come as a shock but JoBeth Hamon announced on Twitter that she’s voting no.

wait you mean the anti business anti police council women is voting no??? shocking i tell you ..

she just recently voted against police resources this week ..

I heard an economist say that the Thunder salaries was included which skews the income generation of a new arena.

He must not realize that ALL NBA players pay Oklahoma state income tax every time they come to town. This includes coaches and team owners too.

LeBron Makes $ 590,000.00 a GAME. He pays into the Oklahoma state coffers at 4.75%. That's $28,000 a pop.

So we have about 435 players (not counting Thunder) that pay Oklahoma state tax. Labron is the highest paid player in the league but all players make great income.

steph is the highest paid NBA player .. lebron is third

Arena Vote: 2nd day of early voting before Tuesday December 12th

Friday, December 8th - 8:00 a.m. - 6:00 p.m.
Oklahoma County Election Board
4201 N Lincoln Blvd, Oklahoma City, OK 73105
.

https://www.velocityokc.com/clientuploads/directory/super_blog/Blog_Images/Arena_Campaign_Kickoff_Sign_Blog_.png

Voted today at the county election board…only one other person voting when I was there. Turnout’s gonna be light. If you’re for this issue, PLEASE make the effort to vote.

Another 'Vote Yes' mailer today.

Another 'Vote Yes' mailer today.

Yesterday VOTE YES by mail from us.

steph is the highest paid NBA player .. lebron is third

LOS ANGELES (AP) — LeBron James has agreed to a two-year, $97.1 million contract extension through the 2024-25 season with the Los Angeles Lakers, his agent announced Wednesday. Klutch Sports CEO Rich Paul said the league-maximum deal makes James the highest-paid player in NBA history.

This was as of September 2022. Maybe Steph got a new deal ?

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

LOS ANGELES (AP) — LeBron James has agreed to a two-year, $97.1 million contract extension through the 2024-25 season with the Los Angeles Lakers, his agent announced Wednesday. Klutch Sports CEO Rich Paul said the league-maximum deal makes James the highest-paid player in NBA history.

This was as of September 2022. Maybe Steph got a new deal ?

And KD and the joker.

And KD and the joker.

joker lebron and embiid all tied at $47,607,350

Poor things, having to economize and all that........

It may come as a shock but JoBeth Hamon announced on Twitter that she’s voting no.

This isn't an appeal to a debate or argument: I agree with her.

Poor things, having to economize and all that........
Really!

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

What does this have to do with OKC Arena vote? Just more deflection. Why not highlight the workers who are provided jobs as a result of events held in the city's public facilities? I guess it isn't as emotionally off-putting as highlighting people who are best in the world at what they are doing and making premium money doing it.

You're right, it has nothing to do with the arena vote. What it does have to do with is building an opulent palace of a facility for people making extravagant amounts of money to play in. Don't get me wrong, l've made it clear if OKC is going to commit to being a major league city then atop class facility is necessary.

It's interesting to consider what will happen if the vote fails on Tuesday because that is at least a possibility.

I know many will say, "That's it; OKC has lost the Thunder forever." However, I don't believe things would be that simple and straightforward because the City and the state wouldn't just sit idly by without trying to keep the team.

I'm sure the Thunder owners would start making noise about selling/moving, and maybe right away.

Then, I think the state legislature would get involved, which should have happened at the outset. Then some sort of package would start to take shape from both the state and the City.

I know David Holt would move heaven and earth because if he didn't help put together something palatable to both citizens and the Thunder, his entire political career -- which he has been cultivating most of his life -- would be finished.

It's interesting to consider what will happen if the vote fails on Tuesday because that is at least a possibility.

I know many will say, "That's it; OKC has lost the Thunder forever." However, I don't believe things would be that simple and straightforward because the City and the state wouldn't just sit idly by without trying to keep the team.

I'm sure the Thunder owners would start making noise about selling/moving, and maybe right away.

Then, I think the state legislature would get involved, which should have happened at the outset. Then some sort of package would start to take shape from both the state and the City.

I know David Holt would move heaven and earth because if he didn't help put together something palatable to both citizens and the Thunder, his entire political career -- which he has been cultivating most of his life -- would be finished.

Or, Stitt would try to lure them to Tulsa. Jkjk

I don't know if it will matter, unfortunately. Talks have already taken place between ownership and potential buyers. It would take a monumental effort to be able to keep them, should this fail. I don't know how much the state would truly help.

But I hope you are right. In all honesty, I hope it passes and we don't have to worry.

Talks have already taken place between ownership and potential buyers.

Has this been confirmed anywhere or is it yet more speculation?

The Athletic had a piece on the potential of league expansion earlier this week, mentioning there are multiple groups vying for the rights to an expansion franchise. While that's a different situation than buying and potentially relocating the Thunder, it shows the appettite for NBA ownership right now.

https://theathletic.com/5078791/2023/12/06/nba-expansion-teams-probability-ideas/

"As the NBA has slowly inched forward, a class of interested parties have moved ahead too. A steady, if informal, buildup is already starting among prospective buyers for the next round of available expansion franchises to hit the market, based on conversations with nearly a dozen sports-investment banking and industry sources, who along with other sources in this story were granted anonymity so they could speak freely. One sports investment banker said he already has spoken to people who are assembling to buy an expansion franchise. Another longtime banker said he knows of three groups angling to get into the bidding process."

It is interesting to see competing op-eds, both in the Oklahoman today, from two council members on one side and six council members and the mayor on the other. And the fact that the "for" side is apparently accessible without a subscription and the "against" side is not. That said, I'm seeing a lot of anti-arena rhetoric from all sorts of people I know across the spectrum, which has me fairly concerned about how this may end up (coupled with the absolute blitz of mailers).

For: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/opinion/2023/12/08/opinion-okc-thunder-nba-arena-continues-momentum-opinion-mayor-david-holt/71850946007/?fbclid=IwAR30WaP5DLfJbA95W7fYEetzmDm_MlD3RE73UK7V b8vPNG1X1uFfD1THXKs

Against: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/opinion/2023/12/07/councilwomen-vote-no-on-the-arena-deal-okc-residents-deserve-more/71837657007/

^

Reminder that the Oklahoman is the biggest beneficiary of Thunder advertising dollars, with very frequent full-page ads.

That paper makes a weak attempt to give the appearance of being objective although it is anything but.

Also harder to get a pulse of the no votes since they don’t have the finances that the yes campaign has.

Surprisingly, the City Sentinel has run several editorials in strong opposition to the proposed arena deal.

They are definitely on the hard right and quite tuned into the local power brokers:

Approving the new arena on December 12 will raise taxes set to expire in 2028. So: Vote No (https://www.citynewsokc.com/community/approving-the-new-arena-on-december-12-will-raise-taxes-set-to-expire-in-2028/article_6774dad4-9567-11ee-bf4d-bb21570c96ae.html)

7 Reasons to VOTE NO on December 12 Against New Thunder Arena (https://www.citynewsokc.com/sports/7-reasons-to-vote-no-on-december-12-against-new-thunder-arena/article_9322b746-93d7-11ee-bf7d-4b01724f3226.html)

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sentinel120823a.jpg

Not even going to comment about the economics of it but optics of the proposal are so bad you almost wonder if they set this up to fail so they could either leave or sell the team to out of state buyers. The 5% number is such a slap in the face you might as well have done 100% financed by the city and figured out a way to promote it being a city asset that can generate revenue over time. They've made it far too easy for anyone that wants to oppose it to focus on the 5% contribution for the owners which undermines any potential benefits. I'm willing to bet that 90% of people that support the proposal still have a bad taste in their mouth from the owners contribution.

Nevermind...

Not even going to comment about the economics of it but optics of the proposal are so bad you almost wonder if they set this up to fail so they could either leave or sell the team to out of state buyers. The 5% number is such a slap in the face you might as well have done 100% financed by the city and figured out a way to promote it being a city asset that can generate revenue over time. They've made it far too easy for anyone that wants to oppose it to focus on the 5% contribution for the owners which undermines any potential benefits. I'm willing to bet that 90% of people that support the proposal still have a bad taste in their mouth from the owners contribution.

Well ownership would 100% make more money selling and/or moving the franchise. In fact, it would be the prudent financial decision whether this arena deal was on the table or not. Almost like they threw the city a lifeline.
Not really sure why so many are in denial that the team is packing up and gone if this doesn't go through. The minimization of the consequences of us losing an NBA franchise have quite frankly surprised and caught me off guard as well.
Is the deal amazing - no. Won't even argue that. But do the pros of this going through outweigh the cons? No doubt in my book. Lets continue to move the city forward, not backward.

Holt called the 5% on behalf of the owners a 'donation' and that we were lucky to get it because the team doesn't own the arena.

However, he purposely left out that it is to the team's great benefit to not own it and let the City absorb a big loss every year, currently around $2 million per year, a figure that would almost certainly go up with the new arena.


I've said from the beginning that the back-room dealings, a lack of any meaningful research into what is reasonable, no information about the full cost to taxpayers, and the blackmail tactic of "give them a billion or they will leave" have brought us to a place that many will vote no who would otherwise be inclined to support a new arena.

It's interesting to consider what will happen if the vote fails on Tuesday because that is at least a possibility.

I know many will say, "That's it; OKC has lost the Thunder forever." However, I don't believe things would be that simple and straightforward because the City and the state wouldn't just sit idly by without trying to keep the team.

I'm sure the Thunder owners would start making noise about selling/moving, and maybe right away.

Then, I think the state legislature would get involved, which should have happened at the outset. Then some sort of package would start to take shape from both the state and the City.

I know David Holt would move heaven and earth because if he didn't help put together something palatable to both citizens and the Thunder, his entire political career -- which he has been cultivating most of his life -- would be finished.

Teams don't move in a vacuum. There is no higher level of politics in the NBA than a team moving. It is the third rail these days. The NBA despises teams moving and they especially don't want the possibility to exist during potential expansion time. Screws the market.

The Thunder ownership group is made up of civic leaders who are well known, mature and have their lives work and reputation tied to Oklahoma City. They are not gonna call Adam Silver Wednesday morning and scream "Sell!"

Surprisingly, the City Sentinel has run several editorials in strong opposition to the proposed arena deal.

They are definitely on the hard right and quite tuned into the local power brokers:

Approving the new arena on December 12 will raise taxes set to expire in 2028. So: Vote No (https://www.citynewsokc.com/community/approving-the-new-arena-on-december-12-will-raise-taxes-set-to-expire-in-2028/article_6774dad4-9567-11ee-bf4d-bb21570c96ae.html)

7 Reasons to VOTE NO on December 12 Against New Thunder Arena (https://www.citynewsokc.com/sports/7-reasons-to-vote-no-on-december-12-against-new-thunder-arena/article_9322b746-93d7-11ee-bf7d-4b01724f3226.html)

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sentinel120823a.jpg

I have zero idea what this graphic hopes to illustrate?

What does this have to do with OKC Arena vote? Just more deflection. Why not highlight the workers who are provided jobs as a result of events held in the city's public facilities? I guess it isn't as emotionally off-putting as highlighting people who are best in the world at what they are doing and making premium money doing it.

To be clear, the poster above this comment was saying Steph was the highest paid player. The link to what players get paid.

Teams don't move in a vacuum. There is no higher level of politics in the NBA than a team moving. It is the third rail these days. The NBA despises teams moving and they especially don't want the possibility to exist during potential expansion time. Screws the market.

The Thunder ownership group is made up of civic leaders who are well known, mature and have their lives work and reputation tied to Oklahoma City. They are not gonna call Adam Silver Wednesday morning and scream "Sell!"

What would be the team's argument for making the move? "We demanded an arena deal that is completely off the charts from anything that has ever happened in American sports, and they said no to that arrangement but are in the process of coming up with something more in line with what everyone else has done, and now we want to punish them."

And of course, if they could make billions by selling, what is going to stop from doing exactly that even after a new arena is built? What's the worst case in such a transaction? The team has to negotiate a buyout or merely pay the remainder on the lease (exactly like they did in Seattle)? If the argument is they would make a huge profit by selling, a new arena doesn't change that in any substantial way.

Teams don't move in a vacuum. There is no higher level of politics in the NBA than a team moving. It is the third rail these days. The NBA despises teams moving and they especially don't want the possibility to exist during potential expansion time. Screws the market.

The Thunder ownership group is made up of civic leaders who are well known, mature and have their lives work and reputation tied to Oklahoma City. They are not gonna call Adam Silver Wednesday morning and scream "Sell!"

I guess we'll see. When this fails. It would ultimately come down to the will of the NBA as a whole and what they want. The NBA would have to feel they have enough vested interest in OKC to use their resources to broker a different deal. I don't know how much support from owners there would be for that.

The NO vote has shown that an arena in OKC is a money losing proposition for the owner. It would be an interesting move to make an effort to gain a higher stake in one if that is the case. Team valuation, media rights, and revenue share would probably project higher in a lot of other markets, too.

I have zero idea what this graphic hopes to illustrate?

Also, "with owner world want to more their franchise..."? Was there even an attempt at proofreading this before they put it out?

I have zero idea what this graphic hopes to illustrate?

...that the OKC proposal is anomalously low? Surely you can see that it's a clear outlier here.

If this fails and the Thunder leaves--let's go after the NHL Phoenix Coyotes.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/10/20/1382279862001/NHL-Phoenix-Coyotes-at-An-001.jpg?width=465&dpr=1&s=none

Plan a new arena vote for the NHL in OKC and let the Coyotes use the 15.152 seat Payom Center as a temporary home until a new NHL arena is built, let's see what the Coyotes' owner would contribute toward a new arena.

Would have some great rivals in Dallas Stars, Minnesota Wild, Nashville Predators, St. Louis Blues, Chicago Blackhawks and Colorado Avalanche.

Thunder's internal polling has it at 60% yes. Guess we'll see how good their polling is.