If the Arena vote passes, let's get back to Capital Improvements, first a recommitment to aging city infrastructures and planning for the FUTURE.

More tourists' attractions like a world class DT Aquarium (partnered with OKC Zoo), finish the MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium with 20,000 seats, and a high-profile 625 ft Space Tower in DT Oklahoma City.

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

You may be hanging with the wrong crowd !!! lol

You may be hanging with the wrong crowd !!! lol
They were just guys that happened to be there. I try to hang with better. lol

^^^^^^^^
Just goes to show that anyone supporting the arena vote needs to vote without fail. Polling is promising, but a yes vote is FAR from guaranteed. This is one of the most important municipal elections in recent memory. Your vote is important.

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

https://oklahomawatch.org/2023/04/03/as-voting-turnout-dips-young-oklahomans-risk-losing-political-influence/

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

You hanging with bunch of NERDS?!?

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

Even among registered voters there is low participation of voting in off year elections, let alone a single issue election.
Oklahoma ranks last in voter participation among all states.
https://ktul.com/news/local/oklahoma-ranks-last-in-us-for-voter-participation

Got a feeling this vote will not be a sure thing. OKC has built everything passed by voters since MAPS 1- 4. MAPS 1 had to be scaled down--recall the DT arena had to be put on the back burner until more funding was approved.

City has learned from previous MAPS initiatives to include more funds needed to account for cost overruns and inflation.

Encourage your family and friends to get out the vote.

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

We also have to remember that a lot of those younger voters have no real memory of OKC before MAPS, the arena, or even OKC without the NBA. Some of those who were born the first year the Hornets played here can now vote. An 18 year old was 3 years old when the Thunder moved here. Most of them have probably never been inside of the Myriad arena, let alone seen a concert there. And if they're talking about this vote in a bar in the core of the city, they are probably doing so in a district that didn't even exist (or was just an empty shell of neglected buildings) when the arena opened.

It's natural for younger generations to take for granted what was built before them. It's really a sign of progress, when you think about it. I doubt they have much of a concept of a city's who major entertainment venue is an aging facility that hosts mainly minor league hockey with a smattering of concerts in a good year. That's really the long term vision of a 'NO' vote at this point. If anything, that's the real opportunity cost being presented to voters. I think it's hard to say what taking 40+ events away will do to downtown commerce at this point, but it will eventually be more than that in a lot of years.

The anecdote may represent more of a disconnect created by the campaign itself. Continuing to be associated with an international brand like the NBA is a major motivation for the construction of a new arena, but it is not the only benefit of doing so, especially long term, and that hasn't been emphasized enough, imo.

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess. Definitely a little gray in the hair.

You hanging with bunch of NERDS?!?
Again, just who was in there. I try to hang with better.

This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess.

Sorry, I read "20ish guys" as a reference to their age instead of the quantity of them.

So, in that context, my rant was basically out of context. lol

This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess. Definitely a little gray in the hair.

Casually ask who votes, or is registered to vote sometime when you are having a conversation like that. I have, and the answer is not many.

Again, just who was in there. I try to hang with better.

Must do better LOL.

you hanging with bunch of nerds?!?

a bunch of goddam nerds!!!

If the Arena vote passes, let's get back to Capital Improvements, first a recommitment to aging city infrastructures and planning for the FUTURE.

More tourists' attractions like a world class DT Aquarium (partnered with OKC Zoo), finish the MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium with 20,000 seats, and a high-profile 625 ft Space Tower in DT Oklahoma City. and expand the streetcar (including building in the downtown dual track spine(s)).

I think the tower should be 1000 feet and fixed to scissortail park somewhere.

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

a bunch of goddam nerds!!!
Yeah. But if, just if, these nerds represent any measurable percentage of the citizenry those of us that think it must pass need to get our butts and our friends butts out to vote.

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

Yes Teo…maybe you should order a pizza and just stay home next Tuesday. :tongue:

Yes Teo…maybe you should order a pizza and just stay home next Tuesday. :tongue:

SOMEbody has to vote for all the non-OKC citizens who have an opinion on this matter :wink:

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

Amen, my friend. We'll find out so soon!

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter (https://x.com/jc_bradbury/status/1732154014219837875?s=20) against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter (https://x.com/jc_bradbury/status/1732154014219837875?s=20) against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

I find the use of "Windows 95" in paragraph 3 to be odd. I say odd because it immediately makes us think that Paycom is about that age and must be as useless as the reference here.

The paragraph 4 use of "3 arenas built since 2020 with no public money" does not apply IMO. Those were all built in top 10 population metropolitan areas by incredibly wealthy owners, where the economic return is not in doubt. If OKC were comparable we wouldn't be having this vote. Keep it apples to apples.

I find the use of "Windows 95" in paragraph 3 to be odd. I say odd because it immediately makes us think that Paycom is about that age and must be as useless as the reference here.

The paragraph 4 use of "3 arenas built since 2020 with no public money" does not apply IMO. Those were all built in top 10 population metropolitan areas by incredibly wealthy owners, where the economic return is not in doubt. If OKC were comparable we wouldn't be having this vote. Keep it apples to apples.

Yeah, just trying hard to make an analogy. I won't fault them on that. I could say "does this paper hold no value because it was type on windows 95 and printed on an old dot matrix printer? "

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

Let me ask you this...why are they inserting themselves into what is primarily a political argument?

Are they striking a blow for psych hospitals, homeless shelters, jails, and real metropolitan train/streetcars?

I don't recall reading this type letter when BOK Center was being voted on. Or that worthless, $100 million plus toy of a streetcar we have now.

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

The difference between the quantitative, economic, numbers approach and the qualitative, narrative, inductive reasoning has been the most frustrating aspect trying to follow this thread. I dipped out weeks ago from the nonstop, passive aggressive talking past one another that would borderline turn into personal attacks. Not sure why I opened the thread today but you said it perfectly.

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

Let me ask you this...why are they inserting themselves into what is primarily a political argument?

Are they striking a blow for psych hospitals, homeless shelters, jails, and real metropolitan train/streetcars?

I don't recall reading this type letter when BOK Center was being voted on. Or that worthless, $100 million plus toy of a streetcar we have now.

These conversations happen regularly when it comes to economic spending. I despised Ed Shadid as a 14-year-old because of his opposition to the streetcar. Same with OnTrac, NATI, David on Doug Dawgz Blog, etc when it came to the I-40 relocation that required the destruction of Union Station’s rail yard, though that wasn’t so much about economics.

These conversations happen regularly when it comes to economic spending. I despised Ed Shadid as a 14-year-old because of his opposition to the streetcar. Same with OnTrac, NATI, David on Doug Dawgz Blog, etc when it came to the I-40 relocation that required the destruction of Union Station’s rail yard, though that wasn’t so much about economics.

I don't think I am explaining very well. My understanding is that tenure in universities is more difficult to achieve than it ever has been. And adjunct (and I think associate, but don't know for sure) professors have not achieved tenure yet. This places them in a position where they are fighting for relevance and funding to survive. So I look at the signatories and wonder if they are driven by conviction, or a desire to curry favor with higher ups in their department, or to gain notoriety through bold statements?

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.
What? Where did I call anyone any names or make insults?

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

Saying someone is not a fan….That is calling names? Lol. I thought you are into politics. You should recognize real name calling… it’s the language of much political rhetoric.

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

Oh do l remember the days how this is pot calling the kettle......... smh

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter (https://x.com/jc_bradbury/status/1732154014219837875?s=20) against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

Signed letters of this ilk haven't exactly proven themselves to be very reliable lately, have they?

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter (https://x.com/jc_bradbury/status/1732154014219837875?s=20) against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

While 21 economics and finance professors at Oklahoma universities signed this letter, there are many more economics and finance professors at Oklahoma universities that did not sign this letter. Academics have political opinions too and some of them use their credentials to promote their political views.

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

LOL. What about his post was “name calling” ya NERD?!? He was just disagreeing with your group of SUPER NERDS!

That’s name calling since I guess you don’t know what that phrase means.

It’s also funny I’m at the hospital right now in Edmond and I was talking to a nurse and one of the doctors about the new arena and they both said they support it and agreed it’s basically OKC’s biggest ambassador. Many people wouldn’t even know about OKC if it wasn’t for the Thunder. The nurse specifically chose UCO to go to school at in 2013 when he had other options but chose OKC because he was from Côte d'Ivoire. Thunder was his favorite team. It’s not the first time I’ve heard a story like that.

Talk to people. Go outside of Oklahoma. See what people know about OKC. Look at Instagram or really any social media hashtags and you’ll see Thunder makes up for a huge amount of word of OKC spreading around. I’m just not buying the arguments discounting the massive investment this team brings.

https://youtu.be/_0KEf3rS62I?si=v-HN-nZSJC7sMhGk

I wonder why these Economist are saying “you could do a lot of other things.”

^ ^ ^
For every center piece MAPS project, like the $89.2 DT arena in the original MAPS $350 million in 1993, you could say "you could do a lot of other things."

In 1993, OKC had the Myriad which accommodated 11,200 seats (Rodeo), 13,399 seats (ih), 14,005 seats (bb), The Myriad was -built to keep the NFR in OKC which we eventually lost out to Las Vegas' Thomas & Mack Center's 17,000 for Rodeo. The Myriad was first
proposed to have a minimum of 15,000 seats.

Had we built the Myriad with 19,500 seats, we would probably still have the NFR and possibly an ABA or NHL franchise in OKC as early as the 90s.

US Metropolitan Area Population: 1990-2000: http://www.demographia.com/db-usmet2000.htm Note: Oklahoma City in 1990 had a larger MSA than Las Vegas. Also, our city's central city population was showing growth when other cities were losing population. In the 1980s Central cities population https://www.biggestuscities.com/1980

The Myriad was too small when it was finally built. We (OKC) fell short on the DT arena which was suppose to seat 19,599 originally in an effort to bring NHL to OKC and possibly make another bid for the NFR; however, in l985 the NFR moved to Las Vegas to take the event to another level and provide a different variety of December entertainment in LV . Recall, Las Vegas in 1985 did not have any major league sports franchises because of the gambling.

.

What we didn't have was several casinos making large block ticket purchases to finance the rodeo. I remember the early years in LV the rodeo was not close to full. The underlying reason they went after the NFR was it was held during the 'slow time' in LV.

Another 'Vote Yes' mailer from the Chamber today.

The frequency and related expense tells me they are worried about the vote. Usually for MAPS, you get one or two. I've already received four with a week to go.

Also, Mayor Holt left the City Council meeting early yesterday to go campaign for the arena.

The original MAPS would likely have failed if there was social media. Think about that. Constant doom-speech about taxes or supporting the wealthy (so from both sides). No chance it passes with that much social media.

The original MAPS would likely have failed if there was social media. Think about that. Constant doom-speech about taxes or supporting the wealthy (so from both sides). No chance it passes with that much social media.

Nah that's a false comparison. There was no wealthy group profiting from the outlay of public funds - the Ford Center didn't have a professional anchor tenet that was going to reap millions from the outlay of public money, and the Myriad Center was clearly on its last legs, and it's not like the OKC Dodgers are worth a ton of money, especially not back in 1993. The original MAPS also included money for a ton of other civic and revitalization projects, while this vote seems to be entirely for a new stadium and nothing else. MAPS 3 and MAPS 4 all occurred in the era of social media and passed easily.

Blaming this all on social media, and not the proposal itself, kinda misses the point.

The original MAPS would likely have failed if there was social media. Think about that. Constant doom-speech about taxes or supporting the wealthy (so from both sides). No chance it passes with that much social media.

OKC didn't have an NHL or NBA franchise when MAPS passed in 1993, we were aspiring to get an NHL franchise for the upcoming NHL expansion.

OKC lost out on a United Airlines Maintenance Center in 1991 to Indianapolis because although OKC out bided Indy to get the maintenance center, OKC then Mayor Ron Norick was told that Indianapolis was selected because of its 'quality of life.'

Since that time, 'quality of life' will continue to be the standard by which Oklahoma City's MAPS projects will be measured. A $900 million arena will include 'quality' because IMO can't see our city spending that much on an arena if it doesn't address the deficiencies of Paycom Center Arena; also put OKC's arena among the top ten among the 30 team NBA.

BTW I've received four mailers so far about the arena vote.

Another 'Vote Yes' mailer from the Chamber today.

The frequency and related expense tells me they are worried about the vote. Usually for MAPS, you get one or two. I've already received four with a week to go.

Also, Mayor Holt left the City Council meeting early yesterday to go campaign for the arena.

Worried about the vote or wanting to do everything in their power to secure it passes? I would think they'd still do this approach if internal polls had them at 80%.

They know they can't afford to lose this.

Worried about the vote or wanting to do everything in their power to secure it passes? I would think they'd still do this approach if internal polls had them at 80%.

They know they can't afford to lose this.

I can't remember getting more than a couple of mailers for any MAPS vote.

I can't remember getting more than a couple of mailers for any MAPS vote.

My wife had no idea the city was about to vote on a new arena until she saw a mailer last week and asked me about it. Some people don't live their lives on OKC Talk, OKC social media or consuming local news. MAPS has name recognition for many of those voters who aren't as in the know - the arena concept doesn't.

A more comparable vote would be the school bond last year. The campaign was mostly a hard push in the final two weeks before the election.

I don't check my mail every day, but I have also received probably 5 YES mailers in the last week. I am in 73104.

Anyone attending the last two home games before the vote? GSW this Friday and Jazz the night before the vote. I am wondering if there will be a heavy vote reminder inside/outside the arena.

My wife had no idea the city was about to vote on a new arena until she saw a mailer last week and asked me about it. Some people don't live their lives on OKC Talk, OKC social media or consuming local news. MAPS has name recognition for many of those voters who aren't as in the know - the arena concept doesn't.

A more comparable vote would be the school bond last year. The campaign was mostly a hard push in the final two weeks before the election.

Again, don't think there were 5+ mailers for the school bond vote.

Are you somehow involved in this campaign?

My wife had no idea the city was about to vote on a new arena until she saw a mailer last week and asked me about it. Some people don't live their lives on OKC Talk, OKC social media or consuming local news. MAPS has name recognition for many of those voters who aren't as in the know - the arena concept doesn't.

A more comparable vote would be the school bond last year. The campaign was mostly a hard push in the final two weeks before the election.

Most people have absolutely no idea what is going on at the local level for politics. It only gets slightly better for state level issues, and slightly better again for national politics. It is not about living your life on OKC talk or OKC social media. It is about being informed, which unfortunately most people are not. We have so many potential distractions now that it is easier than ever to be disengaged from your community. Around election season I always break out the voter applications and encourage my staff to vote. I do not encourage them to vote one way or the other, but I do push them to participate. Even when I expedite all the "hard parts" I still only see 2-3 out of every 10 new voters actually go out and get their sticker regularly.

I am not a huge fan of how this arena proposal has been handled, but if it does not pass I will seriously look at relocating. This vote failing is OKC taking a step back from progress. I see recruiters for different companies every single day. The Thunder, the arena and the events it offers are a huge asset for recruiting talent into the city. Without it we will most certainly lose a major part of this city's X factor. I hope all of you get out to vote, and I also hope your vote is yes. Future MAPS style projects will be more successful if we make the right decision and vote yes on this arena.

Its going to be a close vote, plus any of the past maps projects would struggle if being voted on individually. A lot of people don't care one way or another about the outcome, they would if something was there to interest them. So yeah, it makes sense that they would need to be more aggressive with the campaigning.

I don't know if the campaign is more worried than before. Maybe, maybe not. It does seem to me that they were extremely quiet before Thanksgiving and seemingly spent very little, and have ramped it up after Thanksgiving. I have to think the last-minute blitz was the plan all along rather than a steady stream over the past several months.

Again, don't think there were 5+ mailers for the school bond vote.

Are you somehow involved in this campaign?

No, I just assume that 1) it will pass; and 2) its in the city/chamber's best interest to do everything it can to help it pass.

The consequences for MAPS/school bonds failing is that we miss out on big improvements to our city. The consequences for the arena vote failing is we lose the only major sports team our state will ever have. I can see why they would print more mailers than for MAPS!! This is the only such campaign where the city LOSES something (besides momentum) if it fails.

.

The Guardian


But there is concern now that if the team’s on-court growth cannot be matched by the local government’s willingness to provide it with a suitable home, Oklahoma City could lose its only major-league sports franchise.

Oklahoma City Thunder are the team of the future. But where will they play? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/aug/02/oklahoma-city-thunder-are-the-team-of-the-future-but-where-will-they-play#:~:text=But%20there%20is%20concern%20now,only %20major%2Dleague%20sports%20franchise.

No, I just assume that 1) it will pass; and 2) its in the city/chamber's best interest to do everything it can to help it pass.

The consequences for MAPS/school bonds failing is that we miss out on big improvements to our city. The consequences for the arena vote failing is we lose the only major sports team our state will ever have. I can see why they would print more mailers than for MAPS!! This is the only such campaign where the city LOSES something (besides momentum) if it fails.

A no vote doesn't mean the Thunder immediately leaves. It means the ownership will be more aggressive in signaling their intent to move if they don't get a new arena. The city would try the vote again later down the road.

A no vote doesn't mean the Thunder immediately leaves. It means the ownership will be more aggressive in signaling their intent to move if they don't get a new arena. The city would try the vote again later down the road.

Holt has said multiple times that another vote or deal won't happen if this fails - it's one shot

A no vote doesn't mean the Thunder immediately leaves. It means the ownership will be more aggressive in signaling their intent to move if they don't get a new arena. The city would try the vote again later down the road.

A no vote means the owners call that prospective buyer back and tell him they are selling now. Why do you think this all started so randomly? It wasn't random at all.

There will be no second vote.