I get the argument about cost of land with the Myriad/Prairie Surf because it seems to be right from my layman's perspective, but the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see the arena go on the old cotton mill site to jump start development there and create a connection with Bricktown, especially if the Dream development gets off the ground. That would also allow the current Paycom and Prairie Surf sites to be redeveloped out of superblocks, potentially with housing that fronts an amazing park and spur development of the Bob Howard parking lot.

The cotton mill is a massive site, so obviously more than the arena would go there, but it's a site that's effective enclosed by the rail line and the interstate, which limits the type of development that could go there. It seems something is needed to jump start that area and if they city is going to pay hundreds of millions to build a new arena, then it seems worthwhile to get that area going with part of that spend.

The obvious counterpoint is that the land cost of the cotton mill could be prohibitively expensive, especially if there is required environmental remediation (did that already occur in an attempt to make sellable?). Perhaps the Thunder ownership could enter into a partnership to help cover costs and create a massive development there that brings in other forms of revenue for the team.

Another issue is the current and several other sites can utilize existing downtown parking infrastructure, both large parking garages and street parking, which peak use is work hours and a good percentage is available well before tip off. Outside of Devon and BOK towers, development downtown in the last few decades has generally neither been dense enough to demand similar amount of parking density nor as likely to have the favorable day/night cycle, as many of the newer buildings that have structured parking are forms of housing which generally need the parking at night/gametime. The cotton mill site is so isolated it may need it's own parking structure built, which would be a massive expense, and if did not would be much less convenient than a range of other options.

https://swacdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/18232229/Dickies-Arena-0192_hero.jpg

https://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/cd/scoreboard.jpg
Dickies Arena

Broke ground: 2015
Opened November 8, 2019
Construction cost: $540 million

Basketball 13,550

Many of you do not care for the brick facade but with something with mare glass and NBA capacity in excess of 18,000.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ0SMSvDBxw

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Like the huge exposed structural steel barrel-vaulted roof crowned with a cupola.

If Oklahoma City invests more than $750 million to $1 billion on an arena on the PSM site. We will have one of the best multipurpose
arenas in the country.

dickies???

that is not an NBA quality arena in any way and wasn't designed to be

dickies???

that is not an NBA quality arena in any way and wasn't designed to be

It's actually more what the State Fair arena should be going for. The Dickies arena has economically impacted OKC in a negative way more than most people realize. It's a major threat to one of our biggest sources of international visitor revenue, on par with when the NFR left for Vegas. Events lost to Dickies are not coming back, just like the NFR is never coming back, because, well, Vegas.

I will say, though, that I would personally rather attend a basketball game in an arena like that than a lot of the 18k-20k size NBA arenas, in terms of in-game experience. Even in the best of markets, even during the best of seasons, actual average attendance for a weeknight game in the NBA is not going be 18,000. It may be sold out, but there's going to be a lot of empty seats. I know the economics don't work out and you want to be able to host 18k+ fans in the playoffs, but on most nights, 15k max size arena would make for a great basketball environment for almost every NBA franchise. I probably also rather see a concert there as opposed to most NBA spec arenas.

But, ultimately, yes. It is not an NBA quality arena and isn't really a reference point for this discussion.

dickies???

that is not an NBA quality arena in any way and wasn't designed to be

i think something like dickies might be fine as a lloyd noble replacement. but it just doesn't seem to have much of a blc nba vibe, imo.

It's actually more what the State Fair arena should be going for.
This.

A few years ago I saw the Black Keys at Dickies, and it’s a stunner of a building. Great for a live show. Reminded me very much of American Airlines Center from a finish standpoint. That said:


It’s in the middle of nowhere. Not a downtown arena. Downtown drives costs.
It is significantly smaller than an NBA arena
There is no adjacent development (yet)
While it has suites, there are nowhere near as many of them as would be required in our arena
And again, Dickies will be ten years old when the new OKC arena is completed. The world is much different today, as far as labor, materials, etc.

The Dickies example only underscores how unlikely it is that our arena will be significantly less than a billion dollars to build.

I don't know how many more times I have to say this, construction costs are up 50-60% from the pandemic alone.

This is still 5 years away at least.

There is no chance it stays under a billion, because it will be built for the next 30 years of Thunder basketball.

Develop Prarie Surf site! Best location IMO. The lot between MG and Scissortail would be best fit for housing and retail. Producers Coop area would be nice, but a lot more expensive private development would be needed to fill that whole area.

Screenshot 2023-04-14 10.58.16 AM.png
Screenshot 2023-04-14 10.52.51 AM.png

i think something like dickies might be fine as a lloyd noble replacement. but it just doesn't seem to have much of a blc nba vibe, imo.

Yes for LNC replacement but with 9,000 seats

From what I've heard there will be a pretty big update in July regarding the new stadium and adjacent development. While there won't be renderings yet, it sounds like the size/scope/location will all be laid out for us. Assuming that this will be at the State of the City event on 7/20, you can bet that Holt will be announcing what the ask will be of the city too.

From what I've heard there will be a pretty big update in July regarding the new stadium and adjacent development. While there won't be renderings yet, it sounds like the size/scope/location will all be laid out for us. Assuming that this will be at the State of the City event on 7/20, you can bet that Holt will be announcing what the ask will be of the city too.

Good to hear!

From what I've heard there will be a pretty big update in July regarding the new stadium and adjacent development. While there won't be renderings yet, it sounds like the size/scope/location will all be laid out for us. Assuming that this will be at the State of the City event on 7/20, you can bet that Holt will be announcing what the ask will be of the city too.

makes sense, he said in Steve's chat 2023 would be a big year. You figure 2 years of planning/funding/arm twisting. Dirt moves mid 2025, hosting Thunder games fall of 2027. Modern arenas seem to take 2 years to build out now.

I remember when MAPS3 was proposed, there was talk of an intermodal hub being in place on the east side of the prairie surf property, across from the santa fe station. Is there any thought that even a small part could be worked into the development of the super block? I am not sure what that would look like and maybe the old arena site would be a better place for something like that, but wanted to bring it up.

Urbanized, do you recall what I am talking about?

Even if it's shared with other uses, I desperately hope that at least part of the eastern side of the property has a transit use. If memory serves, the full intermodal transit hub plans that were the basis for the Santa Fe station renovations called for a parking garage with a robust bus station on the ground floor. This would allow both EMBARK and Greyhound to directly interface with the existing Amtrak route (and potential expansions), plus the future commuter rail and/or passenger line to Tulsa - in addition to addressing the parking need for travelers taking Amtrak. In the original transit hub study, this was projected to be located where the Dream Hotels development is now going to be... so if the Cox/Prairie Surf block is going to be rebuilt, now would be a perfect time to integrate something like that into the overall site plan, even if it's shared with the arena or underneath a hotel or housing or something.

https://xflnewshub.com/columns/xfl-expansion-2025-exploring-potential-new-horizons-with-san-diego-san-jose-nashville-and-more/

Maybe the stadium has a permanent tenant?

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Oklahoma City is a thriving sports market, with the NBA’s Oklahoma City Thunder being the city’s primary professional sports team. Introducing an XFL team to Oklahoma City would provide football fans with a new team to support and fill a gap in the city’s sports landscape. The city has a proven track record of supporting professional sports, and an existing venue like the Taft Stadium could be upgraded to accommodate an XFL team.

Don't agree with the Taft Stadium venue, the MAPS 4 Multipurpose Stadium could be ready by 2026 if construction started in 2024. City would need to bring the seating capacity up from 8,000 to 20,000 minimum.

Budgeted $41 million in MAPS 4 Multipurpose Stadium (Oklahoma City doesn't have a stadium for American Football or Soccer) that holds 20,000. The City would need at least $100 million more ($141 million) to increase the size of the stadium to 20,000 on city owned land or do a land swap for the Producers Coop site.

Chad Richison Stadium (capacity 12,000 - UCO Campus) Edmond could be used as a temporary venue if an expansion or relocated team became available.

MAPS 4 Stadium considering 3 sites: https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=724-MAPS4-Stadium-considering-3-sites
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https://jasta99.de/include/images/usergallery/img_4028.png

Featured NBA Arena


Footprint Center, Phoenix
Owner: Phoenix City Council
Broke ground: August 1, 1990
Opened June 6, 1992 - $172 million in 2021 dollars
Renovated 2003 ($67 million), 2020 ($240-million)
Total investment: $479 million
17,071 (basketball)

https://www.hok.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Footprint-Center_3.jpg
The 550,000 square foot facility has 7 stories with plumbing, mechanical, electrical, roof and structural issues all in need of renovation
https://www.enr.com/ext/resources/Issues/Southwest_Issues/2022/October/BP/SW-BP-PhoenixSuns-Oct2022-2.jpg?1666380600

Note: Has less total square footage than Paycom Center (581,000-square-foot).

Note: Has less total square footage than Paycom Center (581,000-square-foot).

it is almost 1 million sqft .. https://www.tutorperini.com/projects/sports/footprint-center/ but that does include practice facility ..

https://www.enr.com/articles/55129-best-project-sports-entertainment-phoenix-suns-footprint-center-renovations

it also just went under a 240 mil renovation 80 mil paid by the team ..

this is the project that the thunder owners for sure would rather no one talk about ..

double post

Thank you, thank you, thank you BoulderSooner for the correction with a source link, because I knew our mayor had done his research when he mentioned the comparison of Smoothie King Center and Paycom Center.

More encouraging that we will get the new arena built and it will be a state-of-the art billion dollar + facility second-to-none among NBA small market arenas and possibly he best in the NBA..

The new arena discussions with ownership like most good projects are in the initial strategic planning stages. Reminds me of when our city and Ron Norick initially gathered ideas for MAPS.

Featured NBA Arena

State Farm Arena, Atlanta

https://img.ctykit.com/cdn/ga-atlanta/images/tr:w-900/philips_arena_1.jpg
^ ^ ^ Envision something similar with OKC ^ ^ ^
https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/10/statefarmarena01_mwells.jpg




Opened September 18, 1999
Renovated 2017–2018 - $192.5-million
680.000 square footage
Basketball: 16,888
Construction cost: $347 million in 2021 dollars
Total investment: $539.5 million




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Hate those red seats and the outside is just not very interesting when compared to newer comps like FiServ or 76 Place.

Hate those red seats and the outside is just not very interesting when compared to newer comps like FiServ or 76 Place.

The photo shows the seats covered in red T shirts, the seats are black and gray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH_5W4sfF7g

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/36/2019/07/gettyimages-1157648076.jpg?resize=347,208


When asked for updates in his end-of-season press conference, Thunder general manager Sam Presti essentially said the ball is in OKC’s court.

Sam Presti talks about potential new arena in end-of-season press conference: https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2023/04/21/sam-presti-talks-about-potential-new-arena-in-end-of-season-press-conference/


https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/36/2022/04/USATSI_15324008.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

I like that they are on thr same page. You know Holt and Presti/Bennett have been talking already. Holt wouldn't have mentioned it from the get-go if they hadn't had productive talks.

I like that they are on thr same page. You know Holt and Presti/Bennett have been talking already. Holt wouldn't have mentioned it from the get-go if they hadn't had productive talks.

Also think that's what triggered Mayor Holt to begin the discussion publicly if there wasn't some sentiment toward a NBA first class arena in OKC. One that meets current NBA specs and more EXTERiOR appeal AND OPEN SPACE than our current arena.

I like that they are on thr same page. You know Holt and Presti/Bennett have been talking already. Holt wouldn't have mentioned it from the get-go if they hadn't had productive talks.

Holt is sharp.

He'll take the "build a new arena" arrows instead of the Thunder. This way the Thunder never have to threaten or make any noise. An Oakland situation simply isn't going to happen. It's a testament to how well this city functions overall. Not perfect, but pretty good compared to lots of other.

https://youtu.be/PjXNdLdK3yk

Holt is sharp.

He'll take the "build a new arena" arrows instead of the Thunder. This way the Thunder never have to threaten or make any noise. An Oakland situation simply isn't going to happen. It's a testament to how well this city functions overall. Not perfect, but pretty good compared to lots of other.

Its helps when there is elected official already favorable to the idea. I think all teams that have threaten in the past probably started off speaking privately to elective officals before launching a hail Mary to convince the public to support the idea.

We have a mayor who will be active in this process.

Mayor Holt has done his research on arenas for all competitive NBA markets as well as small markets. Feeling confident our city
will put together (as many on this forum have stated) an arena that will not repeat the mistakes of the past. Something bold and
beautiful that will address seating capacity, open spaces (square footage) and current trends for NBA arenas.

I’m pretty excited to see the renderings, whenever that may be

Featured Arena:


https://customercarecontacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/vivint-arena.jpg

https://www.vivintarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Thunder_Jazz_MM_285.jpg


2020: Vivint Arena - 'SmartHome' dropped
2015: Vivint SmartHome Arena
2006: Energy Solutions Arena
1991: Delta Center


Broke ground: May 22, 1990
Opened: October 4, 1991
Construction cost: US$93 million; ($193 million in 2021 dollars)
Capacity: 18,306
Square Footage: 743,000

Major renovations:


2017: $125 million
1991: $ 93 million (Initial cost)
2023: $218 million - Investment: $512 million in U.S. dollars - 2023 ESt

Any insider information on arena talks between the City and NBA Thunder ownership . . .

Don’t think this will happen, but a worst case scenario example. https://ktar.com/story/5496647/coyotes-arena-denied-by-voters-future-in-arizona-looks-bleak/amp/

Don’t think this will happen, but a worst case scenario example. https://ktar.com/story/5496647/coyotes-arena-denied-by-voters-future-in-arizona-looks-bleak/amp/

dang, who is in the driver's seat to land them?

dang, who is in the driver's seat to land them?

I think Atlanta is wanting to build an NHL-specific arena.

Houston, Kansas City, Salt Lake City and Atlanta are the ones I’ve seen. Super early so who knows. The Coyotes play at a 5,000 seat Arizona State hockey arena - weird

Recruiting an NHL team would make the gross misuse of public funds to replace Paycom Center a bit more palatable

Maybe Tulsa could give it a try?

I’d bet on Kansas City.

Maybe Tulsa could give it a try?

The Dallas Stars announced April 25 that they will host a neutral site 2022-23 preseason game at BOK Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma on Tuesday, September 27 against the Arizona Coyotes at 7 p.m. CT. - https://www.nhl.com/stars/news/dallas-stars-to-host-neutral-site-2022-23-preseason-game-at-bok-center-in-tulsa/c-333415146

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i mean this is all going to be about new ownership. the current owner, Alex Meruelo only bought the team just back in 2019 in an attempt to keep the team in AZ. and every attempt he has made to do so has been met with failure. I don't see a relocation happening as long as he is owner. So he will either see if there is some of avenue now he can try to keep the team there, or he will sell. If he sells, then new ownership will determine the location. Any city can "try" but it really is just up to ownership. like if (and this is a full hypothetical) Chad Richison decides he wants to buy them, and ends up closing the deal... it doesn't matter if Houston, KC or Atlanta, or anyone else wants it, he would bring them to OKC. because i just don't see a scenario where the current owner relocates after all the work he has done after buying the team with the purpose of keeping them in Arizona.

I'd bet on Portland, Quebec, or SLC on any relocation.

So, is the announcement in July still happening??

So, is the announcement in July still happening??

My understanding is Holt will at least provide the broad points at his Chamber-sponsored State of the City address, and customarily that happens in July.

And there seems to be movement towards a public vote in December, so all this should be moving soon.

A vote in December doesn't seem ideal. That's when people are most aggravated about spending money.

I think the vote will pass easily no matter what. But December does allow 2+ months of the season to get underway. OKC could easily be a top 3 team in the west at that point. Casual fans that don't know the team is on the brink of contending again, will see the light.

Has the city hired a firm to do design and cost estimates?

My understanding is there will be an announcement at the State of the City address on 7/20:


***********

Holt: New OKC arena plan coming this summer
By: Kathryn McNutt//The Journal Record//June 21, 2023

OKLAHOMA CITY – Look for news about a new downtown arena sometime this summer, Mayor David Holt said Tuesday.

“This summer we hope and expect to present a proposal to the people of Oklahoma City,” Holt said. “It is definitely the issue of 2023.”

Officials with the city and the Oklahoma City Thunder have been in conversations for a year about what the future looks like, he said. The city’s long-term lease with the NBA franchise ended this month and the parties approved a short-term extension that runs through the 2025-26 season.

“We aren’t in a long-term lease anymore and there is a sense of urgency,” Holt said.

In his 2022 State of the City address last July, Holt said a new arena is critical to keeping the franchise here along with the economic impact it makes.

The Thunder staying in Oklahoma City is not something to be taken for granted, he said, noting there are 18 cities in the U.S. larger than Oklahoma City that do not have an NBA team and several of them have opened or have announced the development of NBA-level arenas.

That’s how Oklahoma City snagged its team. The SuperSonics – the franchise that moved here before the 2008-09 season – left Seattle after failing to get public funding to construct a new arena there.

The downtown arena – now known as the Paycom Center – is 21 years old. It was included in the MAPS program passed in 1993 and opened in 2002 at an original cost of $89 million. At 586,000 square feet, it is the smallest NBA arena.

Ten of the 30 NBA arenas cost more than $475 million to build and 22 exceed 750,000 total square feet. Square footage allows the amenities users expect, Holt said.

“How long would it take to build a new facility if we decide to do so? Last time it took nine years,” he said Tuesday. “It still needs to operate at a high level for a least a few more years.”

The City Council on Tuesday approved final plans and authorized bidding for one phase of improvements expected to cost $5.6 million.

The voter-approved $1 billion MAPS 4 plan includes $111 million for upgrades to the arena, but city officials are holding back $70 million that could be used toward a new facility. It wouldn’t pay for an arena but would be a start, Holt said.

Three teams play in arenas that cost at least $1 billion when they were built – Golden State Warriors, $1.4 billion; Milwaukee Bucks, $1.2 billion; and Brooklyn Nets, $1 billion.

Two others plan to open new arenas funded by their ownership. The LA Clippers are on track to open their $2 billion arena in 2024, and the Philadelphia 76ers’ ownership say it will build a $1.3 billion arena.

Holt wouldn’t discuss how a new Oklahoma City arena might be funded because negotiations are ongoing.

“People should be prepared for news,” he said. “Be ready. It’s coming.”

Looking forward to the plans--cost of new arena development, timeline and some clue of funding source (bonds, MAPS) with a possible
date for voters to decide.

looking forward too.,

but I can't help but wonder what are the 18 cities larger than OKC that don't have an NBA team? I thought OKC was the 20th largest city, so there can't be 18 cities larger without teams. ...

I’m sure the mayor meant “metro areas” or “media markets.” That’s the metric that matters for this discussion. I think OKC is around #40 on that score.

Still, I’m surprised there are 18 metros bigger than us without teams. Perhaps he’s counting several Canadian cities.

Here are the eighteen (18) metros without NBA larger than Oklahoma City MSA.


12. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA
15. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA MSA
17. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA
18. San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad, CA MSA
(5) 20. Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD MSA

21 St. Louis, MO-IL MSA
26 Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown, TX MSA
28 Pittsburgh, PA MSA
29 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise, NV MSA
(10) 30 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MSA

31 Kansas City, MO-KS MSA
32 Columbus, OH MSA
35 Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA
36 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA MSA
(15) 37 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC MSA

38 Jacksonville, FL MSA
39 Providence-Warwick, RI-MA MSA
(18) 41 Raleigh-Cary, NC MSA

42 Oklahoma City, OK MSA

Source: Metropolitan statistical areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area

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I stand corrected. Thank you, Laramie.

It's funny about some metro areas. For example, San Jose/Sunnyvale/Santa Clara. In my mind that's all part of the Bay Area. Same with Riverside etc. and L.A. And I have flown in to Providence and taken the train to Boston and those are barely separated.

Still, the point stands.

Yeah the point is we're in high rent district, and it's time to pay rent.

also Baltimore could be part of the DC metro and Austin more or less with San Antonio. With this there'd actually be 14 ahead of OKC metro.

It is this reason I think MARKET SIZE is a much better representation. But the mayor's point is still made, and valid.

also Baltimore could be part of the DC metro and Austin more or less with San Antonio. With this there'd actually be 14 ahead of OKC metro.

It is this reason I think MARKET SIZE is a much better representation. But the mayor's point is still made, and valid.

Those are not the same markets.

Really curious as to what kind of design they’re gonna go with. Seems like they really like Fiserv in Milwaukee, which is an awesome building.

Really curious as to what kind of design they’re gonna go with. Seems like they really like Fiserv in Milwaukee, which is an awesome building.

You'll be waiting a long, long time to find that out. Funding has to be approved by the voters before they will spend money on designs. You're looking at at least 8 months or so, maybe longer. But I also want I see if they go modern or stick with a brick theme.