New Downtown Arena [Archive] - Page 2

Laramie

01-12-2023, 10:15 AM

BoulderSooner

01-12-2023, 10:26 AM

Mega Grant Funds Application and other funding sources:

What is a mega grant : The Mega Program (known statutorily as the National Infrastructure Project Assistance program) will support large, complex projects that are difficult to fund by other means and likely to generate national or regional economic, mobility, or safety benefits. U.S.Transportation: https://www.transportation.gov/grants/mega-grant-program

Oklahoma City should look carefully at a mega grant for development of a new arena and MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium. The new NBA arena would have the Oklahoma City Thunder as the anchor tenant and the Multipurpose Stadium could be used for USL and eventual MLS with a minimum seating capacity of 20,000 (expandable). Current stadium proposed to seat 8,000 minimum for the lower bowl.

Also study how to make the Oklahoma City downtown streetcar more efficient to tie into these projects.

New NBA arena has a potential $70 million on hold as a part of MAPS 4 funds for Paycom Center (Arena)/Thunder Alley development and $42 million for the MAPS 4 Multipurpose Stadium. Paycom Center would be replaced with a new NBA specific arena.

Oklahoma City MSA 1,425,695 (2021 estimate) that's a 15,952 increase over 2020 MSA 1,441,647. Keeping with that trend, 2025 could top 1,489,503.

We have the population to support NBA and MLS with both venues (NBA 18,500 and Multipurpose Stadium 20,000 in our core.

um no

Eligible Uses: Projects eligible under the Megaprojects program include —
a highway or bridge project carried out on—
the National Multimodal Freight Network of title 49, United States Code;
the National Highway Freight Network, United States Code; or
the National Highway System, United States Code;
a freight intermodal (including public ports) or freight rail project that provides a public benefit;
a railway-highway grade separation or elimination project;
an intercity passenger rail project; and
certain public transportation projects that are eligible for Federal Transit Administration funding of title 49, United States Code, and is a part of one of other eligible project types above.

Laramie

01-12-2023, 12:11 PM

um no

Eligible Uses: Projects eligible under the Megaprojects program include —
a highway or bridge project carried out on—
the National Multimodal Freight Network of title 49, United States Code;
the National Highway Freight Network, United States Code; or
the National Highway System, United States Code;
a freight intermodal (including public ports) or freight rail project that provides a public benefit;
a railway-highway grade separation or elimination project;
an intercity passenger rail project; and
certain public transportation projects that are eligible for Federal Transit Administration funding of title 49, United States Code, and is a part of one of other eligible project types above.

Thanks BoulderSooner for the clarification. That's probably why the MLB Oakland A's were denied a Mega Grant for their new stadium.

IMO Oklahoma City could plan for the future with a new NBA specific arena and a Multipurpose Stadium thru an extension of MAPS 4 or bonds (If we haven't exceeded our bonding capacity).

April in the Plaza

01-12-2023, 04:01 PM

Thanks BoulderSooner for the clarification. That's probably why the MLB Oakland A's were denied a Mega Grant for their new stadium.

IMO Oklahoma City could plan for the future with a new NBA specific arena and a Multipurpose Stadium thru an extension of MAPS 4 or bonds (If we haven't exceeded our bonding capacity).

The ownership group / state needs to be chipping in a decent share on this. Not cool to stick OKC with all of the cost when it’s fairly obvious that the Thunder have been responsible for a decent share of the recent growth trajectory.

PoliSciGuy

01-12-2023, 08:46 PM

The ownership group / state needs to be chipping in a decent share on this. Not cool to stick OKC with all of the cost when it’s fairly obvious that the Thunder have been responsible for a decent share of the recent growth trajectory.

Do you have some studies that show this impact? I'd love to read them

shai2022

01-13-2023, 04:36 PM

Do you have some studies that show this impact? I'd love to read them

Both "Major League Winners" and "Reversing Urban Decline" by Mark Rosentraub - professor at Michigan School of Kinesiology and consultant on LA Live, Mercedes Benz in ATL, Little Caesars Arena in Detroit, and Texas Live.

April in the Plaza

01-13-2023, 07:19 PM

Do you have some studies that show this impact? I'd love to read them

The BLS numbers (okc vs. tulsa) tend to bear it out since Tulsa is a reasonably good control city.

There are several studies, but they tend to cut both ways, confirming the biases of the researchers.

PoliSciGuy

01-14-2023, 09:56 AM

Both "Major League Winners" and "Reversing Urban Decline" by Mark Rosentraub - professor at Michigan School of Kinesiology and consultant on LA Live, Mercedes Benz in ATL, Little Caesars Arena in Detroit, and Texas Live.

A kinesiology (?) doc who consults with organizations that want to build publicly-backed stadiums isn't exactly a non-biased source

The BLS numbers (okc vs. tulsa) tend to bear it out since Tulsa is a reasonably good control city.

There are several studies, but they tend to cut both ways, confirming the biases of the researchers.

So then it's not "fairly obvious" that the Thunder have been responsible for statewide growth trajectory, but rather debatable.

shai2022

01-14-2023, 01:34 PM

A kinesiology (?) doc who consults with organizations that want to build publicly-backed stadiums isn't exactly a non-biased source

So then it's not "fairly obvious" that the Thunder have been responsible for statewide growth trajectory, but rather debatable.

He is the leading professor in his field at the number one Sport Management program in the county. As someone who majored in Sport Management and business Rosentraub is known as the gold standard.

April in the Plaza

01-19-2023, 09:44 AM

Laramie

02-25-2023, 08:27 AM

BEYOND PAYCOM CENTER, FUTURE OF NBA IN OKC

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/103009406_138861731139718_3029916553799576793_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=dPTuFiDI7IMAX_ajigO&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCfCtVzKEshRUTJFNmxfgq8mf5rG-hyX6nMA3UUDBpeww&oe=6421A294

Here's an interesting interview aired on the Oklahoma Breakdown hosted by Ikard and Lehman with Mayor Holt where many of the concerns listed in the discussions above are touched on:

https://www.google.com/search?q=oklahoma+city+council+reacts+to+holt+nba+ thunder+arena+&sxsrf=AJOqlzURbjbB3YeFPxeZh_mG7Q1ceZQP6w%3A1677331 526690&source=hp&ei=Rgz6Y9zBJ-OyqtsPr6a72A0&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAY_oaVoF45ydhWM2u6Yky8ITdHHwcg_W d&ved=0ahUKEwjc_MPu4rD9AhVjmWoFHS_TDtsQ4dUDCBE&oq=oklahoma+city+council+reacts+to+holt+nba+thunde r+arena+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAE yBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCOgsILhCABBDHA RDRAzoFCC4QgAQ6BQgAEIAEOgsILhCxAxCDARDUAjoICAAQgAQ QsQM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgQIIxAnOgsILhCDARCxAxCABDoRC C4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQrwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDOg4 ILhCDARDUAhCxAxCABDoICC4QsQMQgAQ6DgguEIAEELEDEIMBE NQCOggILhCABBCxAzoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEEMcBEK8 BOg0IABANEIAEELEDEIMBOhAILhANEIAEELEDEIMBENQCOhAIL hANEIMBENQCELEDEIAEOhMILhANEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEK8BOg0 ILhANEIAEELEDEIMBOg0ILhANEIAEEMcBEK8BOgcIABANEIAEO hMILhANEIAEELEDEMcBEK8BENQCOgoILhDHARCvARAnOgcILhC ABBAKOg0ILhCABBDHARCvARAKOgcIABCABBAKOgoILhCABBDUA hAKOggILhCABBDUAjoKCC4QDRCABBDUAjoJCAAQFhAeEPEEOgY IABAWEB46CwghEBYQHhDxBBAdOggIIRAWEB4QHToFCAAQogQ6C ggAEPEEEB4QogRQAFjnzANgzPIEaAFwAHgAgAGqBYgB31uSAQw wLjQ0LjMuNS4zLjOYAQCgAQE&sclient=gws-wiz#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3051625e,vid:gByvphm5K18

Laramie

03-03-2023, 08:50 AM

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Oklahoma City consulting firm, CMA Strategies is asking Oklahoma City residents whether they might support a one-cent sales tax over six year period to pay for a $750 million new arena to replace Paycom Center.

The poll also suggests the Oklahoma City Thunder ownership will contribute $75 million for a new arena in which the owners would be responsible for 10% of the $750 million price tag.

Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt indicated he was aware of the poll and doesn’t believe it represents potential terms with the Thunder, though he confirmed “a team contribution has always been a part of the conversation.”

Mayor Holt said, “Whenever I say this should be in line with recent models in similar sized markets, a team contribution has become a part of every recent arena deal, even in the smaller markets,”

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2022/07/15/NOKL/6ebd2483-62f2-42db-8093-dc958e31865b-arena_locations2-01.jpg?width=660&height=497&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

The site currently home to Prairie Surf Studios immediately north of the 20-year-old Paycom Center is widely viewed as the most likely location for a new arena because it has streetcar access on all four sides.

https://deadline.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/prairetail-Night-exterior.jpeg?w=681&h=383&crop=1

City officials and those running the studio agreed that when a five year lease was signed in 2020 the arrangement was not going to be long term.

“This is really the issue of 2023, at least from a mayor’s perspective,” Holt said during a live chat hosted by The Oklahoman in which he revealed the new arena will be a topic of community discussion this year.

“Our $190 million arena is the smallest in the NBA, now above the average age, and it is the second-cheapest. And as one of the three smallest markets in the league, we have to do more, not less, to hold our place. This will require my personal negotiation and advocacy as we work towards a proposal for the community to consider that will preserve a long-term relationship with major league professional sports."

Mayor Holt cautioned not to presume the poll represents potential terms of any new arena proposal.

The Oklahoma City mayor declined to confirm or deny the numbers cited in the poll. He noted the poll by McFerron is prefaced with a request to answer questions based on whether “statements” would make the respondent more likely to vote yes or no.

The OKC mayor went on to say “People ask lots of questions in polls, I can’t comment on conversations we are having … dollar amounts are not decided. Someone throwing a number out is speculation and not reflective of actual conversations.”

What are your thoughts on a new arena development in which the NBA Oklahoma City Thunder would be anchor tenant,
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bombermwc

03-06-2023, 08:04 AM

I've been saying that the Myriad site is where the new arena would be going all along. Just develop the extra land for hotel space. Dont need some sort of crazy grid restoration either....it just restricts the available land to work with when you start thinking grand/big ideas of what could be.

I'm actually going to be a little sad to see the Paycom go when it goes. The place is really REALLY nice. It's laughable when you think back to what we had with the Myriad back in the day, as our main option. What a pile it was. Anyone remember red duct tape on the seats? Barely functioning popcorn concessions. The Paycom is still nice and has a lot of options all the way around the place now. All of the renovations have really made a huge difference in what it is compared to when the MAPs arena opened. It's just shame that it's going to now be put to the side. Not demolished, there's too much value in NOT doing that. But think of what the possibilities are as the next jump up. If we can make the same leap from the Paycom to New Arena 3.0 as we did from the Myriad to Ford....wow!

HOT ROD

03-09-2023, 01:03 PM

bomber, I (and probably most on here) agree that the myriad site is the obvious choice in that the ONLY issue with it will be the removal/deconstruction of the existing building (as an added cost).

I only disagree with you on how we should treat the myriad area in that I think we should restore the grid and build an LA Live type development with hotels and entertainment venues and allow CBD expansion on the northern portion of the site at least fronting Sheridan. This may be a longer term solution but we could also look at ways to retain the 'recent' myriad addition on the north, it'd make an awesome transit hub. And certainly we need to retain if not expand the underground parking.

Anyway - just chiming in.

Laramie

03-09-2023, 02:54 PM

Would love to see a 20,500 seat arena. Although you could set aside a section 2,000 seats at the very top level for NBA basketball where you're only using 18,500 seats.

If demand grows like an NCAA Regional, open the full arena. I want Oklahoma City to be able to host an SEC basketball tournament or a Big 12 basketball tournament when the conference expands.

April in the Plaza

03-09-2023, 04:42 PM

Dob Hooligan

03-09-2023, 06:43 PM

Hopefully OSU is able to land in a better conference at some point. The Big 12 has seen its best days and won’t be ELITE going forward.

I think the Power 5 is going to become the Power 4 within the next year. And it is entirely possible, IMO, that the Pac 12 is going to be shredded up so completely by Memorial Day that they will become a Group of 5 conference. I think the Big 12 offer to the "4 corner" schools is real and acceptance is at hand. As soon as that happens, then Washington, Oregon, Cal and Stanford are off to the B1G. After that is done, then the Pac 12 will grab what they can find in the Mountain West and All American Conference; put together a streaming/TV package that features heavy payments from Amazon Prime and revenue participation from Stadium and ION TV in such a manner that they can claim they are the "Media Model of the Future".

Swake

03-09-2023, 06:49 PM

Hopefully OSU is able to land in a better conference at some point. The Big 12 has seen its best days and won’t be ELITE going forward.

In basketball? Seriously?

BoulderSooner

03-09-2023, 07:26 PM

I think the Power 5 is going to become the Power 4 within the next year. And it is entirely possible, IMO, that the Pac 12 is going to be shredded up so completely by Memorial Day that they will become a Group of 5 conference. I think the Big 12 offer to the "4 corner" schools is real and acceptance is at hand. As soon as that happens, then Washington, Oregon, Cal and Stanford are off to the B1G. After that is done, then the Pac 12 will grab what they can find in the Mountain West and All American Conference; put together a streaming/TV package that features heavy payments from Amazon Prime and revenue participation from Stadium and ION TV in such a manner that they can claim they are the "Media Model of the Future".

it will be the power 2 and in most ways it already is the Big 10 and SEC will both have double the tv money a year compared to the ACC and big 12 and the pac 12 will be even lower ..

caaokc

03-10-2023, 07:46 AM

I doubt the new arena will hold 20,000+ - probably closer to the current capacity in the 18k range

Bellaboo

03-10-2023, 10:38 AM

Hopefully OSU is able to land in a better conference at some point. The Big 12 has seen its best days and won’t be ELITE going forward.

The Big 12 has ruled college basketball for several years now. And when Houston joins it will be stronger, as they are the top team in the country as we speak.

Laramie

03-12-2023, 07:47 PM

More on current NBA arenas:

Spectrum Center (arena), Charlotte, NC

Owner - City of Charlotte
Operator - Hornets Sports & Entertainment
Capacity - NBA Basketball: 19,077
Broke ground - July 29, 2003
Opened October 21, 2005
Construction cost: $260 million
Renovation: $215 million for Spectrum Center & $60 million for new practice facility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q9ZryCMFaQ

Laramie

03-16-2023, 07:52 PM

More on current NBA arenas:

Scotiabank Arena, Toronto, Ontario

Owner: Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment
Capacity - NBA Basketball: 19,800 (20,511 with standing room)
Broke ground: March 12, 1997 (reconstruction, 1938 - original building)
Opened: February 19, 1999
Construction cost: $265 million ($404 million in 2021)

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/default/files/images/articles/2019/10/39109/39109-130028.jpeg

https://dd20lazkioz9n.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/air_canada_centre_interior.jpg

Laramie

03-20-2023, 11:43 AM

Future NBA Arenas Being Built (2023-2031)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwuxUVTCb8g
Oklahoma City Thunder beginning discussions on new arena.

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Laramie

03-20-2023, 12:38 PM

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OKC mayor: 2023 'very likely the year' for new arena talks. https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2023/02/28/Facilities/oklahoma-city-thunder-new-arena-to-replace-paycom-center.aspx

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Laramie

03-23-2023, 11:37 AM

More on current NBA arenas:

Crypto.com arena formerly Staples Center, Los Angeles

https://www.cryptoarena.com/assets/img/CA_Default_Thumbnail-4e702259d7.jpg

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/1cfd319/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4000x2252+0+248/resize/840x473!/quality/80/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fe0%2Fc7%2F2543320742 458315ed6500c5ff01%2Fleds-and-ribbon-boards-2.jpg

Owner: Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG)

Construction cost: $375 million - $610 million in 2021 dollars

Broke ground: March 31, 1997
Opened: October 17, 1999

950,000 square feet
NBA Basketball: 19,079
NHL ice hockey: 18,230

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj5-EN8mpTs

borchard

03-24-2023, 01:59 PM

I doubt the new arena will hold 20,000+ - probably closer to the current capacity in the 18k range

I think you're right. The Clippers new arena in LA will only have 18,500 apparently

Laramie

03-25-2023, 01:06 PM

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/znuVV2B5IEWFkzcAz-5wlybHKwo=/0x0:6229x3784/920x613/filters:focal(2697x1912:3693x2908):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/71269163/usa_today_18497678.0.jpg

NBA small market cities under 2 million MSA population:

40. 1,566,487 Milwaukee - Fiserv Forum - 17,385, $554 million,
43. 1,336,103 Memphis - FedEx Forum - 18,116, $359 million in 2021 dollars.
47. 1,261,726 New Orleans - 16,838, $185 million in 2021 dollars, $54 million renovation 2019, Investment: $239 million
42. 1,425,695 Oklahoma City (TBD)
46. 1,263,061 Salt Lake City - Vivint Arena - 18,306, - $193 million in 2021 dollars & $125 million in renovations 2017. Investment:
More than $318 million.

An arena comparable to our current Paycom Center capacity 18,203 will put OKC on the high end capacity
for NBA small market cities under 2 million MSA population.

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chssooner

03-25-2023, 01:15 PM

OKC can do a lot, and build a top-notch arena for $500 to $650 million. OKC is not LA or anywhere in California, with insane cost adjustments.

Laramie

03-25-2023, 01:35 PM

OKC can do a lot, and build a top-notch arena for $500 to $650 million. OKC is not LA or anywhere in California, with insane cost adjustments.

Interesting point. IDK what our bonding capacity is or if we've reached our max, hopes the City & Ownership explore all funding options:

Bonds, MAPS 4 Extension, Ownership Group's contribution and help from the State of Oklahoma. We have $70 million on pause from MAPS 4, some of those funds could be used to study what our city will need and hire a firm to design a new arena.

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April in the Plaza

03-25-2023, 08:48 PM

OKC can do a lot, and build a top-notch arena for $500 to $650 million. OKC is not LA or anywhere in California, with insane cost adjustments.

500 to 650 M's was probably a reasonable number if construction had started in 2018 or so. By the time the new one breaks ground, we'll definitely be pushing a full B (or more) to get anything half way nice. That's just the way the cookie crumbles these days, imo.

Laramie

03-25-2023, 08:55 PM

Urbanized

03-26-2023, 08:17 AM

People all need to understand this building will be close to a billion dollars. Citing 30 year old buildings, originally designed for the NBA economy of the nineties - recent renovation or not - even with inflation-adjusted dollars, is at odds with reality. It’s a disservice to readers. Doing so repeatedly and publicly will only lead to confusion and frustration from the public when the number is 2-3 times more than those buildings.

Many of those arenas are already obsolete. Our new building will be state-of-the-art and state-of-the-NBA when it is completed nearly a decade from now. Most of those cities will be undergoing this very same exercise within the next decade, themselves.

BoulderSooner

03-26-2023, 09:14 AM

fiserv Forum is the only one that has any real comparison

Urbanized

03-26-2023, 09:21 AM

fiserv Forum is the only one that has any real comparison
Yep. And still, built in 2018. OKC’s next building would likely open close to 2030, at best. Even that timeline would require some mountains be moved.

There’s a new NBA CBA due in 2024, and a new television deal in 2025. Either or both could significantly change the economy for owners, for better or worse. They are going to build in any revenue stream they can possibly think of. It’s sure to include Thunder-controlled mixed use, outside of the arena proper. That’s the new frontier in the NBA (and sports in general).

And who knows how much inflation, materials and labor cost changes - and on, and on - will affect costs on a building to be completed nearly a decade from now. Demolition of the old Myriad won’t be free, either.

This building is going to be close to a billion dollars. You can take that to the bank.

Urbanized

03-26-2023, 10:30 AM

And it’s worth again pointing out that by the time this building opens, Paycom will be roughly 30 years old. Yes, there have been renovations. But again, a new building would surely include attached mixed use, potentially allowing the team to - again, and importantly - expand revenue streams.

There are also numerous non-NBA reasons that a new building is desirable, including greatly-expanded loading docks and other back-of-house improvements, many of which will allow OKC to host many more non-NBA events such as concerts. We’re already doing much better in this regard due to the current ASM management and City-ASM agreement, but they are seriously cramped with an inability to host simultaneous load-ins/load-outs. There’s significant community benefit potential here beyond keeping the Thunder happy, profitable and settled-in.

Laramie

03-26-2023, 11:28 AM

^ ^ ^

Excellent points. Thanks for your take on this Urbanized.

Citing inflation which is 14% on building materials, I doubt if OKC will build a $1 billion arena. Likely a $600 - $700 million on what is the old 4 square block PSM-Myriad site at maximum funding which will save the city $100 million on land-site acquisition. Counting the $700 million figure and $100 million land acquisition if built on the old Myriad site, an $800 million OKC investment will secure the NBA in OKC for the next two decades.

IIRC Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum (arena portion) cost $554 million as part of a $1 billion downtown development - 'OKC explores lessons from Milwaukee': Velocity https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/inside-okc/okc-explores-lessons-from-milwaukee/?back=super_blog

BTW Urbanized, were you apart of the delegation visit to Milwaukee. . . Keep posting my man.

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Urbanized

03-26-2023, 11:41 AM

^^^^^^^^
I wasn’t. I’m fortunate enough to know and associate with a lot of people worth knowing, but I don’t have that level of influence.

king183

03-26-2023, 11:50 AM

Yep. And still, built in 2018. OKC’s next building would likely open close to 2030, at best. Even that timeline would require some mountains be moved.

There’s a new NBA CBA due in 2024, and a new television deal in 2025. Either or both could significantly change the economy for owners, for better or worse. They are going to build in any revenue stream they can possibly think of. It’s sure to include Thunder-controlled mixed use, outside of the arena proper. That’s the new frontier in the NBA (and sports in general).

And who knows how much inflation, materials and labor cost changes - and on, and on - will affect costs on a building to be completed nearly a decade from now. Demolition of the old Myriad won’t be free, either.

This building is going to be close to a billion dollars. You can take that to the bank.

Another thing to keep an eye on that will have downstream effects on the arena: whether sports betting is legalized by the legislature this year. The Thunder have a major financial interest in seeing betting legalized, thereby allowing betting in arena during games.

BoulderSooner

03-26-2023, 12:08 PM

Another thing to keep an eye on that will have downstream effects on the arena: whether sports betting is legalized by the legislature this year. The Thunder have a major financial interest in seeing betting legalized, thereby allowing betting in arena during games.

the way the state is proposing sports betting It would be 100% tribal .. only the same way our full casinos are currently

there would not be one in the stadium unless state law was massively changed it won't happen in the future

also other then added interest in the sport teams /leagues don't really make money from sports betting (despite what they would like)

king183

03-26-2023, 12:23 PM

the way the state is proposing sports betting It would be 100% tribal .. only the same way our full casinos are currently

there would not be one in the stadium unless state law was massively changed it won't happen in the future

also other then added interest in the sport teams /leagues don't really make money from sports betting (despite what they would like)

Half right/half wrong. It would be 100% tribal *licenses* for online sports betting. The tribes would then "lease" the licenses to various entities, the Thunder being one of them.

Dob Hooligan

03-26-2023, 12:34 PM

Non NBA Cities checking Oklahoma City's pulse:

Exploring cities that could have an NBA interest in expansion or relocation.

Enterprise Center, Downtown St. Louis, MO:
(Former names: Kiel Center, Savvis Center, Scottrade Center
https://explorestlouis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Enterprise-Center-Event-Calendar.jpg

Owner: City of St. Louis
Operator: SLB Acquisition Holdings LLC
Broke ground: December 14, 1992[3]
Opened: October 8, 1994
Construction cost: $261 million in 2021 dollars; $150 million renovation. Investment: $411 million
Anchor Tenant: St. Louis Blues, NHL

21. St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,809,299

Fortune 500 companies (8)

NBA capacity: 22,000 EST
Supports: Major League Baseball (MLB) Cardinals, Major League Soccer - St. Louis City SC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Lnj7Hnxfg

NBA in St. Louis: https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/business-journal/nba-expansion-st-louis/63-d916243f-c414-42da-8101-b9827880ffae

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I keep reading this to mean "Arenas the NBA is considering moving the Thunder to".

I'm guessing you mean "Arenas in non-NBA cities"?

On top of that is my belief that St. Louis has almost zero chance of getting another NBA team. and the arena lease gots to be heavily weighted to the Blues benefit, as primary tenant.

Since 1968 the NBA and NFL have both left the St. Louis market twice each.

St. Louis has two solid teams in the Cardinals of MLB, and the Blues of the NHL. The city is well served by keeping and strengthening each of them.

The economic demands of going from a two league city to three, or four, are becoming exponentially more challenging by the day. And I think St. Louis is rightly placed for the foreseeable future.

The four leagues I am referring to are NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL, in descending order of economic cost and impact. MLS is more speculation than real revenue.

BoulderSooner

03-26-2023, 12:38 PM

Half right/half wrong. It would be 100% tribal *licenses* for online sports betting. The tribes would then "lease" the licenses to various entities, the Thunder being one of them.

you have a link to that legislation?? because i don't think that is in the bill that passed the OK state house

king183

03-26-2023, 01:51 PM

you have a link to that legislation?? because i don't think that is in the bill that passed the OK state house

It’s HB1027. You can find it by doing the basic bill search in the House website. The latest version is the engrossed version. Relevant section is section 3, I believe. The scheme I’m describing has been the central part of this legislation for several weeks. Clay Bennet has been deeply involved, as have the tribes (obviously). One of the sticking points is how many licenses will be issued and which tribes will get them.

Laramie

03-26-2023, 02:17 PM

BoulderSooner

03-26-2023, 02:23 PM

It’s HB1027. You can find it by doing the basic bill search in the House website. The latest version is the engrossed version. Relevant section is section 3, I believe. The scheme I’m describing has been the central part of this legislation for several weeks. Clay Bennet has been deeply involved, as have the tribes (obviously). One of the sticking points is how many licenses will be issued and which tribes will get them.

i have read it and it doesn't authorize them to out source sports betting to any 3rd party or allow them to operate out side of a casino (except online)

Swake

03-26-2023, 04:17 PM

So Sports betting will be linked to the arena. There are so many variables with those "Non NBA cities checking Oklahoma City's pulse." If you take into account those cities like:

Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4.66 million (No major professional sports franchise)[/B]
San Diego MSA 3.29 million (MLB)
Tampa FL MSA 3.22 million (NFL, MLB, NHL)
Baltimore MSA 2.84 million (NFL, MLB)
Pittsburgh MSA 2.35 million (NFL, MLB)
St. Louis MSA 2.81 million (MLB, NHL)
Austin MSA 2.35 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Las Vegas 2.29 million (NHL, NFL)
Cincinnati 2.26 million (MLB, NFL)
Kansas City 2.20 million (MLB, NFL)
Nashville 2.01 million (NHL, NFL)
San Jose 1.95 million (NHL)
Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.80 Million (No major professional sports franchise)
Jacksonville, FL 1.64 (NFL)
Raleigh, NC 1.45 (NHL)
See five potential threats in bold

^
Oklahoma City 1.43 million (NBA)

V
See one potential threat in bold

Richmond, VA 1.32 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Louisville, KY 1.28 million (No major professional sports franchise)

The markets not listed in bold could over saturate the market based on one Major League Sports per 1 million formula.

.

This isn't really accurate, it would be a problem getting an NBA for most of these:

Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4.66 million (No major professional sports franchise) -Part of LA Market, 2 NFL, 2 NBA, 2 NHL, 2 MLB
San Diego MSA 3.29 million (MLB) - Has already lost 2 NBA teams
Tampa FL MSA 3.22 million (NFL, MLB, NHL) - Market is saturated for sports
Baltimore MSA 2.84 million (NFL, MLB) - Part of DC/Baltimore market 2 NFL, NHL, NBA, 2 MLB
Pittsburgh MSA 2.35 million (NFL, MLB) - Market is saturated for sports
St. Louis MSA 2.81 million (MLB, NHL) - Has already lost 2 NBA teams
Austin MSA 2.35 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Las Vegas 2.29 million (NHL, NFL)
Cincinnati 2.26 million (MLB, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
Kansas City 2.20 million (MLB, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
Nashville 2.01 million (NHL, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
San Jose 1.95 million (NHL, **MSA also has NFL**) - Part of SF Bay market NFL, NBA, NHL, 2 MLB

And somehow you missed the most likely market, Seattle.

Laramie

03-26-2023, 05:21 PM

king183

03-26-2023, 08:35 PM

i have read it and it doesn't authorize them to out source sports betting to any 3rd party or allow them to operate out side of a casino (except online)

No one said it “outsourced” sports betting. What I said—and what the legislation authorizes by creating a new gaming method under a new compact, is tribes issuing licenses to 3rd parties to use the applicable betting platform. I’m not going to force understanding onto you; if you can read and comprehend the legislation, you know what I am saying is correct.

Regardless, if the bill passes, you will like see the Thunder receive a license for mobile/in-arena betting. It is not only a major revenue opportunity for them, but in the view of the Thunder ownership, it is a necessary revenue stream.

Dob Hooligan

03-26-2023, 09:40 PM

No one said it “outsourced” sports betting. What I said—and what the legislation authorizes by creating a new gaming method under a new compact, is tribes issuing licenses to 3rd parties to use the applicable betting platform. I’m not going to force understanding onto you; if you can read and comprehend the legislation, you know what I am saying is correct.

Regardless, if the bill passes, you will like see the Thunder receive a license for mobile/in-arena betting. It is not only a major revenue opportunity for them, but in the view of the Thunder ownership, it is a necessary revenue stream.
Two big issues with this-
1. Because this is Indian gaming, the bet must be placed in an Indian facility on “tribal grounds”. The plan is to claim the location of the bet processing computer server is on “tribal land”, so that is where the bet is placed. Not on your phone in Paycom Arena. This has not been fully litigated yet. Could be years of court battles before it is resolved.
2. Profit margins on sports betting are very small. Like 2-3%-ish. Sports leagues dream of making big money off sports betting, but no one has a realistic plan yet that I have heard of.

Dob Hooligan

03-26-2023, 09:55 PM

^
Thanks Swake for the pointing this out. Originally listed Seattle, but in my editing left them out unintentionally.

Seattle and Las Vegas are the front runners for NBA expansion/relocation because they are arena-ready with the Climate Pledge Arena ($1.15 billion 2021 dollars) and T-Mobile Arena ($375 million) not to mention the deep pockets that would make offers to buy the Thunder franchise within an hour of an announced sale. Seattle buying the Thunder and relocating them back to the Emerald City would leave me nauseated for the rest of my life. The Oklahoma City Thunder franchise is worth $1.75 billion in 2023 valuations.

Seattle & Las Vegas are waiting on NBA expansion. NBA is holding out for more expansion money reported to cost $2.5 billion, 7x what The Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Chairman, Clay Bennett) paid for the Supersonics in 2006 before moving the team to OKC.

An expansion fee of $2.5 billion x2 expansion teams split among 30 teams would generate $5 billion, an immediate payment of $166.7 million for each of the 30 NBA franchises.

There is zero talk about relocating any team, and nobody thinks it will happen. The only talk is about expansion, and the expansion fee is also 10x higher than it was thought to be when the Thunder came to be.

Seattle will get an expansion team because they have the money and public sentiment on their side. Also, arena ownership is set up to accommodate an NBA team.

Las Vegas has the NHL Vegas Golden Knights as the anchor tenant at T-Mobile arena. They control about 50 dates a year, plus signage and other facility revenue streams. Add in all the other events at T-Mobile, and try to find the dates and revenue a $3 billion investment NBA team will need? I still think Louisville is more likely.

That $166 million per team expansion money is gonna equal about 2 years of media rights revenue after the new deals are done. After that it reduces each teams revenue due to slicing up the pie into more pieces. That reduces the chances of any league expansion.

BG918

03-26-2023, 10:54 PM

Snowman

03-27-2023, 03:48 AM

...

That $166 million per team expansion money is gonna equal about 2 years of media rights revenue after the new deals are done. After that it reduces each teams revenue due to slicing up the pie into more pieces. That reduces the chances of any league expansion.

While those numbers may have changed due to newer contracts, this is probably the largest reason the owners have not approved an expansion for around twenty years, and why the Thunder had to be purchased and relocated to get a team in the first place. If the league did not have the quirky size of 29 teams at the time, it would not be surprising if even that expansion would not get passed and it be more like thirty years.

Snowman

03-27-2023, 03:58 AM

Seattle and Louisville make the most sense for any kind of expansion in the next decade. Not sure how you fit them in though with all divisions currently having 5 teams. Wish Seattle, if they had a team, would take the Thunder’s place in the Northwest and OKC would move to the Southwest with the other regional teams..

It looks like either eight divisions of four teams (seems more likely as closer to current system) or four divisions of eight teams are the cleanest way to segment thirty two teams. Granted with eight divisions it would make it much harder to get into the playoffs as a non division winner, unless there were some system that poor performing divisions would not be guaranteed a slot in the finals, or playoffs were expanded.

BoulderSooner

03-27-2023, 08:33 AM

2. Profit margins on sports betting are very small. Like 2-3%-ish. Sports leagues dream of making big money off sports betting, but no one has a realistic plan yet that I have heard of.

yep lots of leagues tried a money grab in lots of states .... and it didn't work at all because in vegas leagues make almost nothing on sports betting .. . why would they making money elsewhere .... of course they want to make money on it but it doesn't mean it is going to happen ..

leagues make a small amount from certain books for the use of the teams logo's and for some analytical data .. that is about it

Laramie

03-27-2023, 10:28 AM

Louisville would be a good addition to the small market cities (Milwaukee, OKC, Memphis, New Orleans & SLC) under 2 million MSA population.

Forgive me for sounding a bit apprehensive about our Thunder. Don't mean to sound the alarm bells or confuse anyone; however, just anxious to hear progress on a new arena before the lease with Paycom Center expires.

Want to commend Mayor Holt and leadership for current on-going discussion with the ownership to get this done. Urbanized, thanks for your faith in a state-of-the-art arena. Ideally, many of us want to begin seeing designs and specs.

Hope a combination of sources could get something built on the PSM site early than 2030.

BoulderSooner

03-27-2023, 10:30 AM