If Ikea is wanting to move to Norman they should build it in Edmond or Moore. They are more friendly to business

Oh how I wish. Edmond needs something unique but it will just continue to be cookie cutter losing out of the tax revenue to support the growth.

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority revealed it will not build frontage roads or other amenities within Norman, following the city council’s rejection of ACCESS Oklahoma.

https://www.oudaily.com/news/access-oklahoma-rejection-spurs-debate-over-development-frontage-roads-turnpike-pike-off-ota-norman/article_25d692aa-6bbf-11ef-8ddd-db41355462bb.html

https://www.oudaily.com/news/access-oklahoma-rejection-spurs-debate-over-development-frontage-roads-turnpike-pike-off-ota-norman/article_25d692aa-6bbf-11ef-8ddd-db41355462bb.html

once again these are not serious people


In a press release from Aug. 28, Randy Carter, Pike Off OTA director of strategic communications, wrote that Norman legally cannot be excluded from the ACCESS Oklahoma planning process.

Pike Off OTA is a non-profit organization designed to prevent OTA expansion.

“OTA cannot legally withdraw its cooperation or refuse to provide access roads or other infrastructure necessary to integrate new toll roads into the transportation architecture of the city,” Carter wrote. “By rejecting OTA’s proposed ‘cooperation resolution,’ the City of Norman affirms its right to self-determination and refuses to subordinate its own interests in the building process."

Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Brilliant!

Yep. they basically just put the dime for when those need to be built in the future back on the citizens of norman solely... So now it's a matter of they get built, with less access and then when the access is wanted, it will cost the people of norman even more

Yep. they basically just put the dime for when those need to be built in the future back on the citizens of norman solely... So now it's a matter of they get built, with less access and then when the access is wanted, it will cost the people of norman even more

exactly

Yep. they basically just put the dime for when those need to be built in the future back on the citizens of norman solely... So now it's a matter of they get built, with less access and then when the access is wanted, it will cost the people of norman even more

For sure - there is an element in Norman that doesn't want anything to ever change or any development at all. It is ridiculous and short sighted NIMBYISM at its worst. I strongly believe we should enforce high standards for smart development. The watershed concerns are legitimate and there should be an intensive environmental review of the proposed route and enforce mitigation of negative impacts.

I understand the position of people in the right of way whose homes will be impacted, but no one ever guaranteed an unobstructed or unchanging view for any property. The tambourine clanging and drum circle chats will only hurt Norman in the long run and these groups are being joined by people who wouldn't care if the turnpike wasn't going through or near their land.

The watershed concerns are legitimate

.

except they are not ..

they were just the next thing .. after court losses ..

except they are not ..

they were just the next thing .. after court losses ..

Sure.

“OTA cannot legally withdraw its cooperation or refuse to provide access roads or other infrastructure necessary to integrate new toll roads into the transportation architecture of the city,” Carter wrote. “By rejecting OTA’s proposed ‘cooperation resolution,’ the City of Norman affirms its right to self-determination and refuses to subordinate its own interests in the building process."

I get the feeling Pike Off's statements about law/statues/codes should be looked at with skepticism.

It seems questionable how their claim about access roads or other infrastructure could plausible be correct, most of the Kilpatrick turnpike in OKC does not have service roads and none of Creek turnpike in Tulsa's metro has them. With anything outside of those metros even less likely to have service roads. If cities had so much control in the process, there likely would not have been as many mile grid streets without entry/exit ramps around OKC/Tulsa, and more than eight miles with service roads.

The Pike Off people did exactly what the OTA wanted them to do - have Norman get NOTHING back in return for building the turnpike.

Had Norman negotiated with OTA in access roads, etc. - it would have extended the time for planning to build the turnpike. Instead because Norman is choosing to not be involved AT ALL, OTA can now move at a much faster pace to get the turnpike built. When you don't have any partners to work with, things go much much faster.

OTA has said they plan on building out the East-West Turnpike's connection with I-35 over time (not immediately), just like the Hefner Freeway's connection with the Kilpatrick Turnpike. To do so, the OTA needs access roads along the East-West turnpike if the OTA wants to have any connections with I-35 in the interim. Also, what happens with the Indian Hills Road interchange if there are no access roads? Is the interchange deleted from I-35? If so, there would be a four mile gap between 19th St. and Tecumseh, which would be a traffic nightmare for Norman and Moore. I think the Pike Off people are having a temper tantrum which is causing paralysis in the Norman City Government, but I also think OTA is NOT being truthful with the city because they cannot build out their plan for the East-West Turnpike without access roads at the I-35 junction.

OTA has said they plan on building out the East-West Turnpike's connection with I-35 over time (not immediately), just like the Hefner Freeway's connection with the Kilpatrick Turnpike. To do so, the OTA needs access roads along the East-West turnpike if the OTA wants to have any connections with I-35 in the interim. Also, what happens with the Indian Hills Road interchange if there are no access roads? Is the interchange deleted from I-35? If so, there would be a four mile gap between 19th St. and Tecumseh, which would be a traffic nightmare for Norman and Moore. I think the Pike Off people are having a temper tantrum which is causing paralysis in the Norman City Government, but I also think OTA is NOT being truthful with the city because they cannot build out their plan for the East-West Turnpike without access roads at the I-35 junction.

the interchange with I35 is currently in design and is NOT a future project ..

The Pike Off people did exactly what the OTA wanted them to do - have Norman get NOTHING back in return for building the turnpike.

Had Norman negotiated with OTA in access roads, etc. - it would have extended the time for planning to build the turnpike. Instead because Norman is choosing to not be involved AT ALL, OTA can now move at a much faster pace to get the turnpike built. When you don't have any partners to work with, things go much much faster.

this also saves the OTA a bunch of money ..

Sure.

reread this thread ... look at online articles ... watershed concerns are just now part of any east west connector talk ..

they came up on the south extension after some early court losses .. (and even those are not really valid) ..

it is just another delay tactic that will fail ..

They can still build the service roads. It depends on how much they feel like doing it. It could add more revenue to their system since more people might use it if it spurs commercial development but since Norman has said they won't take ownership of the service roads it would be up to the OTA to maintain it. That's the way I understand it. The more I learn about Norman the more I dislike that town and it isn't just about the anti tollway sh!t.

the interchange with I35 is currently in design and is NOT a future project ..

An OTA spokesperson said “The I-35 and East-West Connector interchange is anticipated to resemble the John Kilpatrick Turnpike and SH-74 interchange. Once design is further along we will know exactly what the footprint will be. As traffic demand grows, the interchange ultimately could be built out to a five-level interchange like what you see in the Dallas metro area.”

See https://okcfox.com/news/local/broken-promises-residents-demonstrate-against-ota-demand-resolution-against-turnpikes

Thus, if the I-35 interchange ramps with the East-West Turnpike are built in phases, then OTA needs access roads to have interim access between the I-35 and the East-West Turnpike just like they have with the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the Hefner Freeway.

That's probably the most completely stupid interchange to ever mirror for any construction job ever. Let's exit the interstate to the city street and sit through 2 lights, just to get back on the interstate.

I still dont know why OTA hasn't ever put in a proper Hefner parkway north, to Kilpatrick West ramp.

I still dont know why OTA hasn't ever put in a proper Hefner parkway north, to Kilpatrick West ramp.

that ramp is part of the current OTA slate of projects

It could sure use a EB to NB ramp, too.

I hate the way OTA just half-bakes stuff. Sell the dang bonds and do it right. Here's looking at you SB BWX to EB JKT. I also think there should be an EB exit ramp at Santa Fe Ave to alleviate some of the daily Western Ave backup. They've got plenty of room there now that they don't have a toll plaza, just put a ramp there.

That's probably the most completely stupid interchange to ever mirror for any construction job ever. Let's exit the interstate to the city street and sit through 2 lights, just to get back on the interstate.

I still dont know why OTA hasn't ever put in a proper Hefner parkway north, to Kilpatrick West ramp.
Texas has tons of these.

It could sure use a EB to NB ramp, too.

I hate the way OTA just half-bakes stuff. Sell the dang bonds and do it right. Here's looking at you SB BWX to EB JKT. I also think there should be an EB exit ramp at Santa Fe Ave to alleviate some of the daily Western Ave backup. They've got plenty of room there now that they don't have a toll plaza, just put a ramp there.

Building a 5 or 4 stack is so ridiculously expensive. Their own revenue predictions (read traffic predictions) know that they would not be able to sustainably build such a large interchange from the get go.

For reference the famous high five interchange in Dallas cost over $400 million dollars over to plan, design, and build.

The price is worth it. Cloverleafs are horrible let alone volleyball interchanges.

Building a 5 or 4 stack is so ridiculously expensive. Their own revenue predictions (read traffic predictions) know that they would not be able to sustainably build such a large interchange from the get go.

For reference the famous high five interchange in Dallas cost over $400 million dollars over to plan, design, and build.

It would be worth it alone with the growing traffic and revenue it will garner. This is why cross-pledging was introduced.

The price is worth it. Cloverleafs are horrible let alone volleyball interchanges.

I know we went through the whole argument already so ill just say that I wish a fraction of that money could be invested in better public transit. OKC spent $30 million for the NW Rapid and its their best performing line. Most of it was paid by a federal BUILD grant too so I think Embark spent $6 million. The other two planned BRT routes are $70 million. I know the OTA doesn't do transit but an RTA with OTA-level powers would be great. (This will be my last comment making this point. This project has a high likelihood of happening and its even beginning to alter some work projects.)


But I do agree that clover leafs are bad by todays design standards.

Press release:

********

OTA announces revised footprint for East-West Connector project
9/13/24

A revised footprint for the East-West Connector turnpike corridor in Norman, Moore, Oklahoma City and Cleveland County is available for viewing on the www.accessoklahoma.com website today. Residents and property owners will see that the extents of the rights-of-way now needed for the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority project are anticipated to be significantly reduced after the removal of proposed frontage roads and three interchanges.

"The OTA met with municipal leaders of all communities impacted by this new turnpike route in early 2022 to see how the project could align with local infrastructure needs. Ultimately, frontage roads are a local decision and we respect the City of Norman's choice to not add to their transportation infrastructure," OTA Executive Director Joe Echelle said. "With this decision made, OTA has worked as quickly as possible to provide updated information to property owners in the area in order to provide certainty for all those impacted.

"While these changes create some up-front redesign costs for OTA, the removal of the frontage roads and three interchanges also will save millions of dollars in design, right-of-way acquisition and utility relocation and construction costs," Echelle said.

Initially, the 28-mile new alignment will connect the I-44/Tri-City area of Newcastle, Blanchard and Tuttle at SH-37/N.W. 32nd St. and cross the South Canadian River east to I-35. Ultimately, the corridor will continue northeast to I-40 to connect to the Kickapoo Turnpike. The East-West Connector is a segment of the Oklahoma City Outer Loop, first envisioned by state and municipal leaders more than 30 years ago. It will serve as another east-west high-speed expressway facility to move traffic across the metro area and provides an additional river crossing.

"Engineering design work is ongoing for the first segment of the East-West Connector between I-44 and I-35 and we expect to know the full extent of property acquisition needs for this project by the end of this year. While we had expected to reach 60 percent design completion in October, it will take some additional time to rework the design plans to remove the frontage roads and additional interchanges at 36th St., Broadway and 48th Ave.," OTA Deputy Director and Chief Engineer T.J. Dill said. "This new, high-speed corridor will connect with the state highway and interstate system at I-44, I-35 and SH-77H/Sooner Rd./12th Ave. N.E."

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/turnpike091324a.jpg

Looks like I-35 interchange will still be a "full stack" since Indian Hills Road is going through there. They just deleted one frontage road.

The exit closest to where I live is gone, which kinda reduces the convenience.

Weird looking at that old map as Andy Alligators has been torn down for a long time. I was confused on what the build was for a bit.

I guess my questions is, is this road going over the intersection of 48th, 36th and 24th?

Indian Hills in front of my 'hood will stay as is. Fantastic.

Dave Moore, a member of Pike Off OTA, a nonprofit designed to stop OTA turnpike expansion, said the majority of council sides with turnpike protesters. He added Pike Off OTA will continue to protest until the ACCESS Oklahoma plans in Norman are gone.

“We're playing a big game of chicken. And you know who wins a game of chicken? The person who quits first,” Moore said. “Well, we're not going to quit. https://www.oudaily.com/news/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-access-oklahoma-turnpike-plans-norman-city-council-town-hall/article_f4bab2a4-9257-11ef-a1d9-6369c06bf3b7.html

So, if I'm reading this right, Norman is not going to have any onramps, offramps, or frontage roads to the turnpike? That's the worst possible outcome. OTA is still going to claim a bunch of properties but now none of the residents will get to use the turnpike.

I understand many of these property owners are feeling helpless, but continuing to "play chicken" is not going to change anything. The turnpikes are all but done. Might as well get to use them.

https://www.oudaily.com/news/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-access-oklahoma-turnpike-plans-norman-city-council-town-hall/article_f4bab2a4-9257-11ef-a1d9-6369c06bf3b7.html

So, if I'm reading this right, Norman is not going to have any onramps, offramps, or frontage roads to the turnpike? That's the worst possible outcome. OTA is still going to claim a bunch of properties but now none of the residents will get to use the turnpike.

I understand many of these property owners are feeling helpless, but continuing to "play chicken" is not going to change anything. The turnpikes are all but done. Might as well get to use them.

i think the OTA said there would still be three off ramps, on ramps, but yes, no frontage roads for the East-West corridor. i think the three ramps are NW 48th, I-35, and Sooner rd

i have no idea if anything has been talked about yet on the North-South Corridor, but it does sound like the OTA is just going to do what they feel is best

https://www.oudaily.com/news/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-access-oklahoma-turnpike-plans-norman-city-council-town-hall/article_f4bab2a4-9257-11ef-a1d9-6369c06bf3b7.html

So, if I'm reading this right, Norman is not going to have any onramps, offramps, or frontage roads to the turnpike? That's the worst possible outcome. OTA is still going to claim a bunch of properties but now none of the residents will get to use the turnpike.

I understand many of these property owners are feeling helpless, but continuing to "play chicken" is not going to change anything. The turnpikes are all but done. Might as well get to use them.

There is no game of "Chicken" being played. OTA has moved on with the less ramp and no frontage design. Pike-off is just screaming into the void now. OTA would probably hate having to go back yet again and design with frontage roads.

There is no game of "Chicken" being played. OTA has moved on with the less ramp and no frontage design. Pike-off is just screaming into the void now. OTA would probably hate having to go back yet again and design with frontage roads.

yep all pike off did was cost norman millions of dollars in frontage roads that if norman ever wants in the future (they will) they will have to self fund ..

yep all pike off did was cost norman millions of dollars in frontage roads that if norman ever wants in the future (they will) they will have to self fund ..

This is a prime case of FAFO. I also blame the city council for placating these people even though the council members knew there was nothing they could do to stop the turnpike from getting built in Norman. They should have just explained that the best they could do was make the best of a bad situation for these people who were losing their homes.

The mayor was attempting to be pragmatic about it and doing what you mentioned, but a few council members ran on an anti-turnpike platform and replaced others. It's a situation with a loud and vocal opposition and, in my view, the majority are pretty apathetic about it all.

The mayor was attempting to be pragmatic about it and doing what you mentioned, but a few council members ran on an anti-turnpike platform and replaced others. It's a situation with a loud and vocal opposition and, in my view, the majority are pretty apathetic about it all.

My personal opinion is that the city got what it deserves. The same will be true with regard to the arena. All this opposition will end up hurting the city in the long run.

Major retailers will overlook Norman based on actions like these. IKEA will be a prime example. I guarantee without a service road, there is zero chance IKEA will look at the SW corner of the interchange now.

yep all pike off did was cost norman millions of dollars in frontage roads that if norman ever wants in the future (they will) they will have to self fund ..

True story. I wanted to be sure the eastern part of this expansion didn't impact the Thunderbird water shed, but opposing the east-west connector never made sense.

What happened is the Norman NIMBY's who knee jerk oppose everything came together with people who normally would be all in for more highways if it were other peoples homes being taken, but their property was impacted. In many ways it is a weird alliance.

In the short term, the east-west connector frontage roads would have more useful to Moore who has lots of developments all the way down to its southern boundaries. I noticed OKC has one small frontage road where the future turnpike goes through its boundaries.

There is a vote on Tuesday in Moore for bond money to make Telephone (36th) be 4 lanes from SW 34th to Indian Hills. They did a terrible job of explaining why they wanted to do this, but it makes a lot more sense after seeing this. Skuttle is that that lot may be a potential Ikea spot (someone on OKCTalk said that, not me).

I wish it was a little more detailed on the east side of the interchange. I see 3 lines, so is that one frontage and not the other? But with the way the ramps go, it looks like it might just be a blurry design? It's just not super clear. When i look at the website map, it looks to me like Indian Hills is intact and the the connector is mostly parallel to IH for most of the path. As said, it will take less land since they are not having to buy land for frontage roads. To me, that makes it look like this will be a big stack for 35/connector/IH all being taken into consideration.

yep all pike off did was cost norman millions of dollars in frontage roads that if norman ever wants in the future (they will) they will have to self fund ..

Indian Hills Rd, as is, is not going anywhere.

If I'm reading it right, they will use Indian Hills Road as the northern frontage road for much of the path. Less takings that way.

If I'm reading it right, they will use Indian Hills Road as the northern frontage road for much of the path. Less takings that way.

From Newcastle to just east of I35 the turnpike will run north of Indian Hills.

From Newcastle to just east of I35 the turnpike will run north of Indian Hills.

Yeah and what's sad is there was going to be a bunch of businesses up on the North side of where that turnpike was going to go. There's a chance they fund the road at least from that portion from 48th to 36th. However I think it's more likely they pull out all together.

I think what happened is there wasn't enough opposition to Pike Offs crazy agenda. And here we are

Not to mention those same people are trying to get the $1 billion entertainment district up to a vote so they can shoot that down too. Why would you want it up for a vote if you don't have an issue with it

Not to mention those same people are trying to get the $1 billion entertainment district up to a vote so they can shoot that down too. Why would you want it up for a vote if you don't have an issue with it

I think the issue is that they don't feel like a decision that important should be left up to less than12 people.

The Pike Off folks can try to claim a win here but really it's not a win. They just screwed over Norman in the process. Norman lost support to pay for frontage roads and all the infra that went with it. In that area, that would have translated to economic development that would have more than paid for the expense. But here we are. We'll only have an exit at Sooner Rd and then nothing else. It does make it a true express connector that way, much like the east side connector. But without frontage and exits, you have no development, just like the east connector. If that's what you were after, then I guess you won?? The road was always going to be built so you didn't stop that from happening. You just cut out the benefits Norman may have received from it. Way to go???

Like I mention a few posts up, This cuts Moore's access off from the East-West Connector. I bet they really start really pushing for 34st on and off ramps now. You can go south from 19th street, but any further north and you might as well use 240.

The Pike Off folks can try to claim a win here but really it's not a win. They just screwed over Norman in the process. Norman lost support to pay for frontage roads and all the infra that went with it. In that area, that would have translated to economic development that would have more than paid for the expense. But here we are. We'll only have an exit at Sooner Rd and then nothing else. It does make it a true express connector that way, much like the east side connector. But without frontage and exits, you have no development, just like the east connector. If that's what you were after, then I guess you won?? The road was always going to be built so you didn't stop that from happening. You just cut out the benefits Norman may have received from it. Way to go???

Exactly. Not to mention it'll be these same people who will be entirely up in arms when the exit ramps and the rest of the Sooner road interchange is completely congested during rush hour because it's the only exit in the area.

I hate to say this because Norman as a town really does have his charm, but the people there and I apologize to anyone here that lives in Norman reading my message, but man, the people there are f@ckin dumb. And this isn’t even just about the turnpike. This has to do with so many other developments and so many other things Norman opposes. Edmond does the same sh!t. But to be frank, I don’t think Edmond is as bad. I just think Norman is an anti-development town that can’t stop all the development that comes through it because of how big Oklahoma City is getting. Whether or not those people like it they’re gonna have to face the reality that they are going to be surrounded by sprawl.

As for the proposed IKEA it sounded like a sure thing when this was all being proposed, but now given the fact that the service roads have been removed I have no idea if that’s still gonna happen or not. I don’t have any insider knowledge on this. This is just stuff that I was told by certain people. But I would be surprised now if it happens and it really sounded like it was. So I’m sure they will just go someplace else now. But who knows it seems like they’re still going to be a big development planned at that interchange on I 35.

It just sucks that Norman has to be the way that it is.

sorry, double post

I think 70% of people don't care one way or another. It can be argued though that they shouldn't let the loudest of the other 30% dictate what happens in their city.

Same thing can be said with state and national politics.

I think 70% of people don't care one way or another. It can be argued though that they shouldn't let the loudest of the other 30% dictate what happens in their city.

Same thing can be said with state and national politics.
Fair point. I just think it’s a crying shame. The service roads were removed because it could’ve really fostered a lot of good development for the city.

The Pike Off folks can try to claim a win here but really it's not a win. They just screwed over Norman in the process. Norman lost support to pay for frontage roads and all the infra that went with it. In that area, that would have translated to economic development that would have more than paid for the expense.

That's very much not true. Suburban style development never pays for itself when considered over the long term. In 30 years when the access roads would need to be rebuilt or widened all on the cities dime. By then the development and buildings will be 30 years old so no one is moving their new stores there.

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money

Oh, you’re quoting some stupid anti-Car anti-sprawl crap. Dude get out here with that sprawl does pay for itself over and over and it shows because it continues to support itself. It’s called subsidization.

I hate to say this because Norman as a town really does have his charm, but the people there and I apologize to anyone here that lives in Norman reading my message, but man, the people there are f@ckin dumb. And this isn’t even just about the turnpike. This has to do with so many other developments and so many other things Norman opposes. Edmond does the same sh!t. But to be frank, I don’t think Edmond is as bad. I just think Norman is an anti-development town that can’t stop all the development that comes through it because of how big Oklahoma City is getting. Whether or not those people like it they’re gonna have to face the reality that they are going to be surrounded by sprawl.

As for the proposed IKEA it sounded like a sure thing when this was all being proposed, but now given the fact that the service roads have been removed I have no idea if that’s still gonna happen or not. I don’t have any insider knowledge on this. This is just stuff that I was told by certain people. But I would be surprised now if it happens and it really sounded like it was. So I’m sure they will just go someplace else now. But who knows it seems like they’re still going to be a big development planned at that interchange on I 35.

It just sucks that Norman has to be the way that it is.

I know there's really very little point in arguing with you, but you do realize those that are fighting against this are either a) losing their homes, b) losing some of their property, or c) losing their home lifestyle, correct? And there are A LOT of folks that fall in one, or perhaps even all, of those categories -- that's the reason the noise is as loud as it is.

I know there's really very little point in arguing with you, but you do realize those that are fighting against this are either a) losing their homes, b) losing some of their property, or c) losing their home lifestyle, correct? And there are A LOT of folks that fall in one, or perhaps even all, of those categories -- that's the reason the noise is as loud as it is.

as someone who lives in norman and talks with a lot of people who were in the opposition, i can say with certainty that a vast majority of those against, fall into none of those 3 categories.

I know there's really very little point in arguing with you, but you do realize those that are fighting against this are either a) losing their homes, b) losing some of their property, or c) losing their home lifestyle, correct? And there are A LOT of folks that fall in one, or perhaps even all, of those categories -- that's the reason the noise is as loud as it is.
OK, so let me ask you this in good faith. How do you propose we move people around? You want Oklahoma City to build a metro system? Do you honestly think that’s gonna work? There has to be a way to facilitate growth.

And yes, I do sympathize with people that are losing their homes and their properties. It sucks and it would be better if we could just build everything underground and money with no issue. But that is just not reality. We need these toll roads to expand and facilitate the growth of the city.

I know at least two people offhand who are gonna benefit greatly from this road one of them lives right by it and they are very happy. It is being built.

as someone who lives in norman and talks with a lot of people who were in the opposition, i can say with certainty that a vast majority of those against, fall into none of those 3 categories.

As someone who lives on the Norman/Moore border, in a neighborhood along Indian Hills Rd, I can say with certainty you are incorrect.