The idea that it would be stopped simply because it crosses waterways is not going to "hold water" folks. Sorry, couldn't resist.

This can absolutely be built in a way that allows the flood/watershed/etc all to be protected. Roads are built across the country every day that do that. It's honestly, not difficult to do. Were doing it right now with interstate construction all over the state. Simply doing construction doesn't create pollution. The intent of that rule is to prevent people from dumping hazardous materials in water ways. But we've already seen the state is willing to protect chicken/pig farms from being prosecuted by even their own AG to protect from their waste run off. If the state is fighting itself, what do you think they're going to do to listen to a few residents in a sparsely populated area that would relieve massive amounts of congestion on 35/40?

It may take longer folks, but like has been said all along, its just delaying the inevitable. It's gonna happen, and frankly, it's needed. If the residents in the area weren't trying to spread so much disinformation, they would have helped their case more. Honestly, they didn't make many friends/supporters along the way. And Norman...no, the city is not going to win against the state. It may just be the next governor that gets it done.

Good example is I-44 that runs next to Lake Hefner in OKC (OKC's main water source)

Good example is I-44 that runs next to Lake Hefner in OKC (OKC's main water source)

and 344 (the turnpike) runs right next to overholser ... and 240 runs right next to draper .. and I35 I44 run right next to arcadia ..(edmonds main water source)

MoB to answer your question as whether opinion(s) on this project is based on any feelings about Stitt. Let me remind you Stitt was nowhere around in 1999 when citizen involvemet put the kibosh on a similar proposal. It has nothing do do about him

MoB to answer your question as whether opinion(s) on this project is based on any feelings about Stitt. Let me remind you Stitt was nowhere around in 1999 when citizen involvement put the kibosh on a similar proposal. It has nothing do do about him

the difference between now and 1999, is that multiple cities and groups of people were opposed to the plans. that isn't the case now. the people of Harrah and several other small communities that were part of the protests in 1999, no longer care if it's build in Norman, because Norman wasn't there for the fight to stop theirs from being build since then. The courts seem to be more in favor of how the OTA is handling this, and has shown so by stopping every legal challenge so far. Also just the economics of growth have changed. the OKC metro is significantly larger now than it was 25 years ago... and a lot of the same arguments just aren't the same level of relevancy anymore.

Opponents need to familiarize themselves with NEPA. But one would think they have already done so....

Opponents need to familiarize themselves with NEPA. But one would think they have already done so....

you should look up NEPA and see that it doesn't apply to this project AT ALL

These projects are happening and are going to happen much sooner than you think. I’ve spoken with this Nash guy and it’s just personal with him. These people get mad because houses are being taken from them, but they have no problem using other infrastructure that was built by taking peoples homes and properties. It’s all fine and dandy until it happens to them.

Yup...it's happening. Simply kicking the can sort of just makes the wound hurt more for the people affected. It holds them in limbo longer while they fight a pointless battle that they absolutely will eventually lose. And one that there is very little sympathy for from others around the city honestly. The rug hath been pulled sir.

MoB to answer your question as whether opinion(s) on this project is based on any feelings about Stitt. Let me remind you Stitt was nowhere around in 1999 when citizen involvemet put the kibosh on a similar proposal. It has nothing do do about him

"..No studies had been done at the time to prove a "public need" that justified a governmental exercise of eminent domain, and indeed, to this day (July 27, 2024), over two years later, not a single study has been attempted to justify Governor Kevin Stitt's heavy-handed approach in using the OTA to satisfy his toll road ambitions."

It was already pointed out, 1999 was (......gulp...*feeling very old suddenly* ) 25 years ago. You will virtually never have a significant new infrastructure project that will not have some negative affect on someone.

As l said, it may not apply to you personally, but this published excerpt from your previous post indicates at least some portion of opposition to the program is directed at simply not liking Stitt.

Telling the city of Norman that they shouldn't negotiate with OTA. I'm sure that will work out for them.

https://kfor.com/news/local/city-of-norman-shares-updates-on-turnpike-designs-residents-call-for-larger-focus-on-environmental-impacts/

Telling the city of Norman that they shouldn't negotiate with OTA. I'm sure that will work out for them.

https://kfor.com/news/local/city-of-norman-shares-updates-on-turnpike-designs-residents-call-for-larger-focus-on-environmental-impacts/

and there exactly is the separation on this project... The city of Norman is having these discussions, and agreeing and working deals with the OTA... this project is happening. The cities involved are okay with them, the State is okay with them, the State Supreme Court is okay with it... if the real concern is the watershed around lake thunderbird, then Pike Off, needs to start talking with the OTA about alternatives that aren't just "don't build it" and they might actually be heard.

Telling the city of Norman that they shouldn't negotiate with OTA. I'm sure that will work out for them.

https://kfor.com/news/local/city-of-norman-shares-updates-on-turnpike-designs-residents-call-for-larger-focus-on-environmental-impacts/

these are unserious people


“Imagine that you are in the later days of the Roman Empire. You wake up one morning and you go outside and you see that there’s a group of Visigoths camped outside your town. And so at this point, you have two choices. You can alert the town and try to prevent an invasion, or you can form a study committee to try to mitigate the damage that will come from the looting and destruction is sure to follow.”

if the real concern is the watershed around lake thunderbird, then Pike Off, .

it was never the real concern .. it was the next concern after the other failed ..

these are unserious people


“Imagine that you are in the later days of the Roman Empire. You wake up one morning and you go outside and you see that there’s a group of Visigoths camped outside your town. And so at this point, you have two choices. You can alert the town and try to prevent an invasion, or you can form a study committee to try to mitigate the damage that will come from the looting and destruction is sure to follow.”

The irony of that comparison. The Roman Empire would just build a road or coliseum wherever they felt like. Probably make someone disappear in the middle in the night if you complained too much.

https://www.citynewsokc.com/news/analysis-norman-says-no-to-toll-roads/article_ecbdb3c2-2d8e-11ef-8722-9b4e67b034ab.html

...No studies had been done at the time to prove a "public need" that justified a governmental exercise of eminent domain, and indeed, to this day (July 27, 2024), over two years later, not a single study has been attempted to justify Governor Kevin Stitt's heavy-handed approach in using the OTA to satisfy his toll road ambitions.

In 2023 AG Drummond requested an audit of OTA by the State Auditor, Byrd. Audit still pending

Now comes Norman Ward 5 City Councilperson Michael Nash with what could be a true turnpike stopper. His "RESOLUTION TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE THE LAKE THUNDERBIRD WATERSHED, THE CANADIAN RIVER CORRIDOR, THE CITY’S DRINKING WATER SUPPLY, AND THE CITY’S FLOOD HAZARD AREAS" leaves few stones unturned.

The resolution uses the law as its foundation, starting with 11 OK Stat § 37-115, which states, in part, "No person, firm, partnership, or corporation, or any of the partners, officers, managers, or employees thereof, shall pollute or permit the pollution of the water supply of a municipality, or any stream, pond, spring, lake, or other water reservoir or groundwater aquifer, which is used or which is being held for use as a water supply by a municipality. A municipality may bring an action in the district court to enjoin any activity that will cause pollution of the water supply of a municipality whether or not such activity is regulated, licensed, or inspected."

That's it, and since the OTA pollutes everything it touches, it should be a no-brainer. Using this foundation, it is clear to see that powers have been given to Cities to control what happens to their water supply. The old saw that "State trumps city" falls apart under this sort of scrutiny. This time, City trumps the State.

As if that weren't enough, the resolution goes on to cite the City’s Flood Hazard Ordinance, Water Quality Protection Zone Ordinance, the Oklahoma Floodplain Management Act, and the National Pollutant Discharge System Stormwater Program, Phase II MS Compliance. If enacted by the City Council, this could be a true turnpike stopper.



Years, if ever away.

how is this working out for you??


To that end, Pike Off members called on the city council to adopt a resolution, which would formally commit the city to oppose the toll roads, and commit to “the protection and preservation of the watershed” serving the area.

The council did not take any action Tuesday evening.

how is this working out for you??

Lol, bless your heart.

Another article for anybody that wants to read it. It’s about the protesters and the OTA’s Response.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/broken-promises-residents-demonstrate-against-ota-demand-resolution-against-turnpikes#

I'm *not* taking sides on the turnpike issue or the arena issue in Norman. I understand how each side feels the other is woefully wrong.

That said, I do want to point out that the citizens of Norman who are against something come out in really strong numbers. I feel like I read about a protest of some kind in Norman every other month and I'm always impressed by the turnout.

Kudos to involved citizens.

Another article for anybody that wants to read it. It’s about the protesters and the OTA’s Response.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/broken-promises-residents-demonstrate-against-ota-demand-resolution-against-turnpikes#

TLDR is that if norman wants input on the east west connector (ie getting the OTA To build frontage roads ) they need to commit to playing ball by sept 1 ..

If someone knocked on your door and told you they were taking ownership of your land/property you've owned for years, you would likely fight it until the end as well.

I woulkd say where's the check, load my truck and move to my cabin in Ozark Arkansas

TLDR is that if norman wants input on the east west connector (ie getting the OTA To build frontage roads ) they need to commit to playing ball by sept 1 ..

Yep. If they were smart they'd totally do that. I mean, service roads can equal future revenue. Look at all the commercial development along the service roads of the major highways in Dallas, per se.

How i see it is If Lake Thunderbird is the Issue, Negotiate for the route to go a 1/2 mile to a mile to the west that goes west of the lake. posting Potentially Disturbing Images to scare people into being on your side and Screaming WILL NOT get you anything but thrown out of any public meeting. Its going down in the ground regardless if their idea about the watershed is true. Most of Moore will need to go, Normans Only Airport would also have to go, Parts of Tinker AFB would need to go as well. They are Asking for a mess by making the waterrshed a issue

It's just one excuse after the other. First it was the rose rocks, Now it's watershed. They're just trying to delay the inevitable.

How i see it is If Lake Thunderbird is the Issue, Negotiate for the route to go a 1/2 mile to a mile to the west that goes west of the lake. posting Potentially Disturbing Images to scare people into being on your side and Screaming WILL NOT get you anything but thrown out of any public meeting. Its going down in the ground regardless if their idea about the watershed is true. Most of Moore will need to go, Normans Only Airport would also have to go, Parts of Tinker AFB would need to go as well. They are Asking for a mess by making the waterrshed a issue

Shifting the part currently closest to north side of Thunderbird more north/south could make it more direct to 40, giving the east side of Norman a better path to OKC than 35, which is already past it's capacity during peak hours and likely getting worse by the time this is completed.

They are wanting the First Section of the East-West Connector Drivable by the End of 2027 with construction starting at the end of next year. those on Indian hills in the way from I-44 and OK 37 to Midwest Blvd will receive eminent domain notices Within the Next 365 Days

I'm very excited for this new connection. And if the interchange they've been displaying is what gets built, hell yeah. Should make getting to Norman even quicker for OU games. I won't hold my breath for that stack interchange though.

I'm very excited for this new connection. And if the interchange they've been displaying is what gets built, hell yeah. Should make getting to Norman even quicker for OU games. I won't hold my breath for that stack interchange though.
I’ve talked to the OTA and they’ve assured me this will in fact be a Texas style five stack. But I didn’t really ask whether or not it was going to be built in phases. I’m just going based off of what I read. Hopefully it’s all built and not in piecemeal fashion.

I dont recall seeing them typically doing phases for projects like that. They like to get segments done all at once. It wouldn't do them any good to not have the interchange but have the road anyway.

Now can get the money to do it on their timeline? Not sure. Worse case there, it delays a year for more to flow in.

Sort of like how it's going to be 15 years before Turner is 3 lane all the way to OKC at the pace their going. So we'll just have to deal with 15 years of construction nightmares there that slow you down. Good thing is there, when you get "released" to the completed section, you can go 85 now to make up the time. I mean 80 right, because everyone goes on the speed limit...cough cough.

I'm very excited for this new connection. And if the interchange they've been displaying is what gets built, hell yeah. Should make getting to Norman even quicker for OU games. I won't hold my breath for that stack interchange though.

Are there renderings of it that could be posted? I haven't see any fun graphics yet.

I dont recall seeing them typically doing phases for projects like that. They like to get segments done all at once. It wouldn't do them any good to not have the interchange but have the road anyway.

Now can get the money to do it on their timeline? Not sure. Worse case there, it delays a year for more to flow in.

Sort of like how it's going to be 15 years before Turner is 3 lane all the way to OKC at the pace their going. So we'll just have to deal with 15 years of construction nightmares there that slow you down. Good thing is there, when you get "released" to the completed section, you can go 85 now to make up the time. I mean 80 right, because everyone goes on the speed limit...cough cough.

And when the Turner is done, they will need to start work again on the older areas... And when those are done... It's like the Golden Gate Bridge...

Yep. If they were smart they'd totally do that. I mean, service roads can equal future revenue. Look at all the commercial development along the service roads of the major highways in Dallas, per se.

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

This is all just masked corruption to make money for the construction magnates, land owners, and developers while the actual transportation issue will remain unsolved.

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

This is all just masked corruption to make money for the construction magnates, land owners, and developers while the actual transportation issue will remain unsolved.

The highways were needed 10 years ago.

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

That's like saying we shouldn't build any new schools because they are just going to fill up and we'll have to build new ones:banghead:

I’ve talked to the OTA and they’ve assured me this will in fact be a Texas style five stack. But I didn’t really ask whether or not it was going to be built in phases. I’m just going based off of what I read. Hopefully it’s all built and not in piecemeal fashion.




https://youtu.be/PjUcs1zqZ70
Doubt if you'll see many of these five stacks in Oklahoma City area until you see Edmond 98,300 - Norman 130,000 (North-South), Yukon-El Reno 50,000 and Shawnee 31,000 (West-East) approach 100,000 population on the edge of the outter spoke wheel.

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

This is all just masked corruption to make money for the construction magnates, land owners, and developers while the actual transportation issue will remain unsolved.

Yeah, you just keep on with that paranoid hand-wringing.

Are there renderings of it that could be posted? I haven't see any fun graphics yet.

I haven't been able to find any renderings yet either. The only thing is this interactive map from the Access Oklahoma website.

https://www.accessoklahoma.com/east-west-connector-projects/ewc-28004

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

This is all just masked corruption to make money for the construction magnates, land owners, and developers while the actual transportation issue will remain unsolved.

"Forget it, Jose. It's OKCTalk."

19076

I haven't been able to find any renderings yet either. The only thing is this interactive map from the Access Oklahoma website.

https://www.accessoklahoma.com/east-west-connector-projects/ewc-28004

I wonder if there are any plans to either redo the left-hand Flood Ave exit or prevent E/W connector traffic from the inevitable fast lane changes to get over to the left lane?

I wonder if there are any plans to either redo the left-hand Flood Ave exit or prevent E/W connector traffic from the inevitable fast lane changes to get over to the left lane?

I was waiting on PluPan to post his information, but he says they’re planning to move that exit to the right side as a flyover ramp, but who knows when that might happen.

That's like saying we shouldn't build any new schools because they are just going to fill up and we'll have to build new ones:banghead:
Exactly

And this is why highway construction is just going to lead to more sprawl and eventually this highway will be full of traffic as well. And then the "outer outer" loop will need to be built as part of OTAs 2035 BUILD bond.

This is all just masked corruption to make money for the construction magnates, land owners, and developers while the actual transportation issue will remain unsolved.
Of course the city is going to continue to sprawl. It’s sprawling in places that don’t have freeway access as well. The induced demand argument is such crap.

Of course the city is going to continue to sprawl. It’s sprawling in places that don’t have freeway access as well. The induced demand argument is such crap.

Induced demand does have it's merits but go on Google Earth and look how densely populated that entire area is from Eastern OK and Cleveland - and even northern Pottowatamie counties are. They're very heavily populated with acreages.

Induced demand does have it's merits but go on Google Earth and look how densely populated that entire area is from Eastern OK and Cleveland - and even northern Pottowatamie counties are. They're very heavily populated with acreages.

Make sure you are using current google maps/earth images. The overlay that the OTA has on their site is using google earth images from over 10 years ago.

"Forget it, Jose. It's OKCTalk."

19076

Im not anti build. I just think investment in rapid transit would be a more smart form of growth and development instead of the continual expansion of highways.

I think anyone who says that single family developments and strip malls wont follow along the service roads and offramps are fooling themselves.

Induced demand does have it's merits but go on Google Earth and look how densely populated that entire area is from Eastern OK and Cleveland - and even northern Pottowatamie counties are. They're very heavily populated with acreages.

you can't have macro "induced demand" when everyone (basically) that wants to drive already does .. the only system wide increases that the OKC metro has in car usage is due to population increase ..

you can't have macro "induced demand" when everyone (basically) that wants to drive already does .. the only system wide increases that the OKC metro has in car usage is due to population increase ..

Does everyone really "want" to spend time in traffic and dealing with bad drivers and infrastructure? Or is that just the only reality that has been present in OKC for the last 60 years?

And population increase isn't necessarily the driver of vehicle usage. Its the density of households in an area and the built environment. If more subdivisions are built out at the far fringes people will need to driver longer distances to reach shops and services. And once those shops and services do arrive so does the associated traffic and now instead of driving far for 20 minutes you are driving a short distance for 20 minutes.

Does everyone really "want" to spend time in traffic and dealing with bad drivers and infrastructure? Or is that just the only reality that has been present in OKC for the last 60 years?

And population increase isn't necessarily the driver of vehicle usage. Its the density of households in an area and the built environment. If more subdivisions are built out at the far fringes people will need to driver longer distances to reach shops and services. And once those shops and services do arrive so does the associated traffic and now instead of driving far for 20 minutes you are driving a short distance for 20 minutes.

relative to the top 50 metros in the USA OKC doesn't really have any traffic ..

relative to the top 50 metros in the USA OKC doesn't really have any traffic ..

Then why is this turnpike needed?

relative to the top 50 metros in the USA OKC doesn't really have any traffic ..

All the better to invest in good infrastructure before we hit critical mass as we continue to grow

relative to the top 50 metros in the USA OKC doesn't really have any traffic ..

But it will, very quickly. Why do you speak in absolutes all the time? Or seem to think that OKC's done growing?

Or maybe you think that traffic won't be a problem in your lifetime, so why should you care?

Then why is this turnpike needed?

Oklahoma just really, really likes strip malls.

Then why is this turnpike needed?

i want these turnpikes and i want better public transit for the Metro. I want us to build for future demand and actually be ahead of the curve for once.

Im not anti build. I just think investment in rapid transit would be a more smart form of growth and development instead of the continual expansion of highways.

I think anyone who says that single family developments and strip malls wont follow along the service roads and offramps are fooling themselves.
OKC is investing in "rapid transit." Even in LA with an expansive transit system you can still get to where you want to go faster with a car than Metro.

i want these turnpikes and i want better public transit for the Metro. I want us to build for future demand and actually be ahead of the curve for once.
This is the way.

Then why is this turnpike needed?
Because it would be nice to stay ahead of the curve and keep it so we don't have major traffic issues. Big time traffic congestion is coming if OKC becomes a major city no matter how much you build. You can't build your way out of traffic but you can keep expanding roads and building new ones to manage it. You can also build mass/active transit alternatives at the same time as well.

you can't have macro "induced demand" when everyone (basically) that wants to drive already does .. the only system wide increases that the OKC metro has in car usage is due to population increase ..
Not only this but a lot of people forget about latent demand when bringing up induced demand. I don't think either are as much of an issue right now in OKC other than I-35 maybe seeing latent demand pulling cars off of Shields to avoid I-35 rush hour traffic. Even then that seems to be a positive pulling commuting cars off of local streets thanks to a wider freeway.

Does everyone really "want" to spend time in traffic and dealing with bad drivers and infrastructure? Or is that just the only reality that has been present in OKC for the last 60 years?

And population increase isn't necessarily the driver of vehicle usage. Its the density of households in an area and the built environment. If more subdivisions are built out at the far fringes people will need to driver longer distances to reach shops and services. And once those shops and services do arrive so does the associated traffic and now instead of driving far for 20 minutes you are driving a short distance for 20 minutes.
It's not that simple. Give someone an option to have a teleportation device and be able to live wherever they want and of course it becomes more simple. But we don't that yet. So some people want a quite suburban area like Edmond or Newcastle and a tradeoff is dealing with traffic. There also housing affordability issues which is why some people commute 2 hours each way in California to get to and from work if that means having a single family home in a safe area. Come to K Town and see how much fun it is living close to where you work and spending literally up to an hour at times finding a parking space close enough to an affordable apartment with no dedicated parking or have fun walking for 30 minutes to your car that's 10 blocks away and hope it isn't broken into overnight.

Current traffic counts along Indian Hills Road east to west are laughable. 6,000 cars a day does not require a highway that handles 75,000 cars a day. The highway is being built to drive new development. (No current I-35 commuter is going to go out of the way on the North South Connector just to hit traffic downtown again. And if you think Semis will I will just say "Texas SH-130")

You mention LA (a city that invest pennies in public transport) and K town (wherever that is) but how come DFW with its billions invested in highway expansion and construction still has bad traffic and horrid commutes? Who in DFW enjoys their commute?

And if your spending an hour finding parking maybe public transport and improved bike/ped infrastructure is what's needed...

I know I am not going to convince most of you and I for sure know Gatz isnt reading these comments but its saddening to see us follow the DFW path.

Current traffic counts along Indian Hills Road east to west are laughable. 6,000 cars a day does not require a highway that handles 75,000 cars a day. The highway is being built to drive new development. (No current I-35 commuter is going to go out of the way on the North South Connector just to hit traffic downtown again. And if you think Semis will I will just say "Texas SH-130")

You mention LA (a city that invest pennies in public transport) and K town (wherever that is) but how come DFW with its billions invested in highway expansion and construction still has bad traffic and horrid commutes? Who in DFW enjoys their commute?

And if your spending an hour finding parking maybe public transport and improved bike/ped infrastructure is what's needed...

I know I am not going to convince most of you and I for sure know Gatz isnt reading these comments but its saddening to see us follow the DFW path.

A few more highways/turnpikes and the HQ relocations will be sure to follow.

Current traffic counts along Indian Hills Road east to west are laughable. 6,000 cars a day does not require a highway that handles 75,000 cars a day. .

I don't think you realize how many also use the spur near riverwind. the section of this highway that is absolutely needed and going to have a huge impact is the bridge across the river and connecting 44 to 35.

thinking this is being built because of indian hills traffic alone is laughable. the extension from 35 to the far side of norman needs to include robinson and techemseh traffic counts as well. because most going from 35 to sooner, will probably use this over those routes now.