I wonder what the differences were in the $245 million in site work requested vs $145 million proposed? Did they want a multimodal freight facility? I think I posted about that earlier being a major factor for a couple other missed opportunities. Anything that builds here still has a challenge with shipping, whether they use the port for some of it or not.

lol

https://journalrecord.com/2023/12/panasonic-rebuffs-oklahoma-again-on-ev-battery-plant/

Unfortunately, Oklahoma looks to be behind other states in EV battery manufacturing in 2020, but map is nearly a year old.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/05/map-which-states-will-build-the-most-ev-batteries-in-2030.html

Not surprised they are no longer in expansion mode. Panasonic had recently indicated they were cutting production due to weakening demand for EV's


The move comes amidst widespread concerns of a weakening EV market. Although most major automakers have seen sales of battery-powered cars improve on a year-over-year basis, OEM executives have been slowly dialing back expectations on the segment for several months. In October, Ford delayed investments totaling $12 billion, which would have heavily expanded its EV manufacturing capabilities. General Motors also postponed the release of a planned electric pickup. Both companies blamed their decisions on slower-than-expected EV sales. Tesla, who has been a primary client of Panasonic for years, has also struggled with demand throughout the year despite implementing numerous price cuts to attract buyers.
https://www.cbtnews.com/panasonic-cuts-electric-vehicle-battery-production-amidst-demand-fears/

Not surprised they are no longer in expansion mode. Panasonic had recently indicated they were cutting production due to weakening demand for EV's


https://www.cbtnews.com/panasonic-cuts-electric-vehicle-battery-production-amidst-demand-fears/

Yeah, this probably has more to do with EV demand than Oklahoma.

Yeah, this probably has more to do with EV demand than Oklahoma.
There always seems to be some excuse. Not saying it isn’t valid but damn we missed out on such a good opportunity. This would’ve be so transformative for the state let alone Tulsa. This could’ve been what really propelled Tulsa into a major league city. Sucks. Oh well, onto the next one.

i mean people keep saying it's EV demand.... etc... but we still have to wait and see. if they select another spot, then it wasn't EV demand, it was Oklahoma. if they decide to only go with the one plant, then okay,

I don’t think it’s EV demand. I’m renting a Tesla and heading back to OKC. I’ll report on how it goes. I’m honestly not a fan of EVs but I may follow travelers recommendations and get a mini EV because I test drove at Cooper in Edmond and I loved it. Instead of borrowing my folks or grandparents rides I may just buy one to keep there. I have a 99 Grand Marquis which I love to death but I might bring her to Moab and keep that there and I already have my cars in LA I just need a couple in OKC. If I can make some money and get a place of my own in the 405 that’ll be better too. If I get an EV I’ll have to charge it through a regular extension cord wire at my grandmas house if possible it’ll just take all night. I wonder if BMW has a Tesla like charger they can install. I never asked but I’m coming back up there for Christmas I’m going to back to see what’s up.

Overall from what I’ve heard is EV demand isn’t down that much only a little so I don’t see why it would impact an expansion. I think Oklahoma just lost out plain and simple. Shame.

i mean people keep saying it's EV demand.... etc... but we still have to wait and see. if they select another spot, then it wasn't EV demand, it was Oklahoma. if they decide to only go with the one plant, then okay,

Watch Panasonic select Nebraska or something within the next year or so.

Imagine that.

i mean people keep saying it's EV demand.... etc... but we still have to wait and see. if they select another spot, then it wasn't EV demand, it was Oklahoma. if they decide to only go with the one plant, then okay,

With Tesla slashing prices more than once in the last year, Ford scaling back, Hertz not buying anymore Teslas is there really any doubt the EV demand is declining in this country? There is a record high of unsold ev inventory on dealer lots as I write this. You don't have to wait, you can see this right now.

I don’t think it’s EV demand. I’m renting a Tesla and heading back to OKC. I’ll report on how it goes. I’m honestly not a fan of EVs but I may follow travelers recommendations and get a mini EV because I test drove at Cooper in Edmond and I loved it. Instead of borrowing my folks or grandparents rides I may just buy one to keep there. I have a 99 Grand Marquis which I love to death but I might bring her to Moab and keep that there and I already have my cars in LA I just need a couple in OKC. If I can make some money and get a place of my own in the 405 that’ll be better too. If I get an EV I’ll have to charge it through a regular extension cord wire at my grandmas house if possible it’ll just take all night. I wonder if BMW has a Tesla like charger they can install. I never asked but I’m coming back up there for Christmas I’m going to back to see what’s up.

Overall from what I’ve heard is EV demand isn’t down that much only a little so I don’t see why it would impact an expansion. I think Oklahoma just lost out plain and simple. Shame.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/11/f-150-lightning-ford-cuts-2024-production-plans-in-half.html


Cutting the F150 Lighting in half next year, doesn’t seem to be a positive in demand. This truck was supposed to be the cream of the crop when it comes to US Evs.

I don’t think it’s EV demand. I’m renting a Tesla and heading back to OKC. I’ll report on how it goes. I’m honestly not a fan of EVs but I may follow travelers recommendations and get a mini EV because I test drove at Cooper in Edmond and I loved it. Instead of borrowing my folks or grandparents rides I may just buy one to keep there. I have a 99 Grand Marquis which I love to death but I might bring her to Moab and keep that there and I already have my cars in LA I just need a couple in OKC. If I can make some money and get a place of my own in the 405 that’ll be better too. If I get an EV I’ll have to charge it through a regular extension cord wire at my grandmas house if possible it’ll just take all night. I wonder if BMW has a Tesla like charger they can install. I never asked but I’m coming back up there for Christmas I’m going to back to see what’s up.

Overall from what I’ve heard is EV demand isn’t down that much only a little so I don’t see why it would impact an expansion. I think Oklahoma just lost out plain and simple. Shame.

The Mini Cooper Ev gets around 110-120 miles per full charge from what a salesman told me. I have a Mini (gas) and was pursuing some info while I was getting my oil changed at Jackie Cooper last month. I feel like I drive 120 miles in one day around here when out doing errands, I can’t imagine having to charge it that much. My phone already makes me crazy with its needy battery issues, I def would want that in a car.

With Tesla slashing prices more than once in the last year, Ford scaling back, Hertz not buying anymore Teslas is there really any doubt the EV demand is declining in this country? There is a record high of unsold ev inventory on dealer lots as I write this. You don't have to wait, you can see this right now.

Not only is there doubt, it's simply false that EV demand is falling.


Electric vehicle (EV) sales volumes set another record in Q3, as total sales of battery-powered vehicles jumped past 300,000 for the first time in the U.S. market. Year-to-date EV sales through September reached just over 873,000, putting the market firmly on track to surpass 1 million for the first time ever. The milestone will likely be achieved in November.

Total EV sales in Q3, according to an estimate from Kelley Blue Book, hit 313,086, a 49.8% increase from the same period one year ago and an increase from the 298,039 sold in Q2.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/

Not only is there doubt, it's simply false that EV demand is falling.



https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/

I think it is more that EV demand isn't increasing at the rate it was projected to even 3 years ago. Not falling. That would be incorrect.

I think it is more that EV demand isn't increasing at the rate it was projected to even 3 years ago. Not falling. That would be incorrect.
Seems like we are about on target, maybe a little above the projected EV market share from three years ago.


18520
Electric Vehicle Sales and Market Share (US - Updated Monthly) - CarEdge (https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales)

EV demand is absolutely falling at the moment. Plenty of data and company statements support this. https://fortune.com/2023/12/07/electric-vehicle-sales-growth-slows-rapidly-2023-ford-gm-white-house-goals/

That being said, there are cycles in the market like any other. Gas will go back up as it always has, charging stations will proliferate, and homes will be built with EV charging in mind. Eventually the things keeping EVs looking difficult to use will fade away and ICE vehicles will start to look like more of a pain with their constant mechanical problems and oil changes.

Not sure if OK will still be in the running for a new EV plant in 10 years when it comes back around, but I do believe the market will bounce back.

With Tesla slashing prices more than once in the last year, Ford scaling back, Hertz not buying anymore Teslas is there really any doubt the EV demand is declining in this country? There is a record high of unsold ev inventory on dealer lots as I write this. You don't have to wait, you can see this right now.

except just back in june, panasonic said that they were going to start a bidding process for a 3rd plant. and that bidding process would be finalized in March. they already saw a lot of EV companies were doing when they made that announcement.

except just back in june, panasonic said that they were going to start a bidding process for a 3rd plant. and that bidding process would be finalized in March. they already saw a lot of EV companies were doing when they made that announcement.

And just 1.5 months ago, they announced they were scaling back expansion plans.

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/panasonic-cuts-outlook-ev-demand-170739063.html

EV demand is absolutely falling at the moment. Plenty of data and company statements support this. https://fortune.com/2023/12/07/electric-vehicle-sales-growth-slows-rapidly-2023-ford-gm-white-house-goals/

literally the first paragraph of that article.

Despite new electric vehicle market share and sales hitting a record in the U.S. this year, EV growth is starting to slow and fall short of the auto industry’s lofty ambitions to transition away from combustion engines.

demand increase at a slower rate is a falling rate of increase, but not a fall in demand. the demand is still increasing, just at a slower rate

The Mini Cooper Ev gets around 110-120 miles per full charge from what a salesman told me. I have a Mini (gas) and was pursuing some info while I was getting my oil changed at Jackie Cooper last month. I feel like I drive 120 miles in one day around here when out doing errands, I can’t imagine having to charge it that much. My phone already makes me crazy with its needy battery issues, I def would want that in a car.

It's definitely a car only for city driving. We live around NW 36th/May and I work near Reno/Portland, so it's totally fine for my daily commute and running errands. I just plug it in to my level 2 charger I had installed when I get home.

I needed to go to Tulsa a couple of weeks ago and the Francis chargers at the "oasis"/McD on the turnpike only had 1 working (out of 6) chargers and those are the only chargers actually on the turnpike, so I didn't take a chance since Francis has problems with their app/chargers and there'd be no backup for me to use. Drove to Dallas last year to see Roxy Music and never going to do that again, too much time spent charging and just all-around hassle, so we rented a car to see Peter Gabriel there this year. The MINI has the shortest range of all EVs, I believe, and that's just how it has to be - it's mini in every sense of the word, just not enough room for enough batteries for a longer range (no space for a spare, so they put run-flats on them, for example).

Yeah, this probably has more to do with EV demand than Oklahoma.

Exactly.

And just 1.5 months ago, they announced they were scaling back expansion plans.

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/panasonic-cuts-outlook-ev-demand-170739063.html

actually it says that it was going to cut back on battery production globally.

announced it's slowing down battery production amid weaker demand for electric vehicles worldwide. Panasonic did note that electric vehicle demand in the US remained steady, highlighting firm sales of EV tax credit-eligible cars.

So Panasonic says that EV demand for those cars that were EV tax credit-eligible remained steady. and those are what the US plants were being built for. for those low end cars that meet that tax credit.


The stock, they're traded in Tokyo, down about 2%. Rachelle, on the back of that, we should point out the CFO did highlight the impact of the IRA, specifically saying that they have seen sort of a ceiling because consumers have been going for the lower end vehicles, which have a higher tax credit there. That's led to concerns about what the demand looks like for the higher end Teslas because those batteries are produced in Japan.
The battery plants that are seeing much lower demand are the ones in Japan.

no where in this article does it talk about expansion plans, or plans to slow those.... only globally to decrease production, and that the US market for lower end vehicles is still steady and strong, and that is what they were building the factories in the US for. So it's still very very possible that they will end up moving more battery manufacturing to the US, to meet that steady demand while closing factories in other parts of the world where demand isn't as great. We don't actually know, only Panasonic does, until they tell us.

except just back in june, panasonic said that they were going to start a bidding process for a 3rd plant. and that bidding process would be finalized in March. they already saw a lot of EV companies were doing when they made that announcement.

And that's the problem right there. A simple case of supply out pacing demand. It doesn't matter if demand is still increasing if everyone decides to flood the market with more EV's and batteries at the same time. Competition is tougher now.

Painful gut punch to Oklahoma and the Tulsa Metro area which seemed to be on the verge on phenomenal growth into the next decade.

Pulling for Tulsa to rebound and get better development for its metro area. Look at it this way, may have been a blessing in disguise--much like when OKC lost out to Indianapolis for the United Airlines Maintenance facility--MAPS Capital Improvements idea was created. OKC has been on the move ever since.

Painful gut punch to Oklahoma and the Tulsa Metro area which seemed to be on the verge on phenomenal growth into the next decade.

Pulling for Tulsa to rebound and get better development for its metro area. Look at it this way, may have been a blessing in disguise--much like when OKC lost out to Indianapolis for the United Airlines Maintenance facility--MAPS Capital Improvements idea was created. OKC has been on the move ever since.

Tulsa is in fine shape and doesn't need a mega-factory at MAIP to "rebound". Any new developments there are obviously positive for the NE OK region but in no way is the area dependent on it. If anything new projects at the Port of Inola (like the $1B Enel solar plant) and future projects at Fair Oaks (the Tesla site) will benefit Tulsa directly more than anything at MAIP.

Painful gut punch to Oklahoma and the Tulsa Metro area which seemed to be on the verge on phenomenal growth into the next decade.

Pulling for Tulsa to rebound and get better development for its metro area. Look at it this way, may have been a blessing in disguise--much like when OKC lost out to Indianapolis for the United Airlines Maintenance facility--MAPS Capital Improvements idea was created. OKC has been on the move ever since.

Tulsa just got an American Airlines maintaince facility expansion that will add 300 positions. Tulsa will be fine and not miss what they never had.

Tulsa is in fine shape and doesn't need a mega-factory at MAIP to "rebound". Any new developments there are obviously positive for the NE OK region but in no way is the area dependent on it. If anything new projects at the Port of Inola (like the $1B Enel solar plant) and future projects at Fair Oaks (the Tesla site) will benefit Tulsa directly more than anything at MAIP.

Great to hear from someone in Tulsa, you reflect that pride and confidence many Tulsans have.

Tulsa just got an American Airlines maintaince facility expansion that will add 300 positions. Tulsa will be fine and not miss what they never had.

Heard the news on the AA expansion which will add more good paying jobs to the Tulsa metro area.

Tulsa is in fine shape and doesn't need a mega-factory at MAIP to "rebound". Any new developments there are obviously positive for the NE OK region but in no way is the area dependent on it. If anything new projects at the Port of Inola (like the $1B Enel solar plant) and future projects at Fair Oaks (the Tesla site) will benefit Tulsa directly more than anything at MAIP.
Haven’t they consistently been loosing population? Not trying to talk sh!t but Tulsa could use a nice boost. This would’ve it and then some.

Tulsa should also completely rebuild its airport and get international flights. Sorry to say but I recently picked someone up there and to say it was comical is an understatement. Flying into there I’d feel like I’m going to some hick town. They need to completely demolish it and build a new $1 billion+ airport with subterranean LRT connecting to downtown.

Haven’t they consistently been loosing population? Not trying to talk sh!t but Tulsa could use a nice boost. This would’ve it and then some.

Tulsa should also completely rebuild its airport and get international flights. Sorry to say but I recently picked someone up there and to say it was comical is an understatement. Flying into there I’d feel like I’m going to some hick town. They need to completely demolish it and build a new $1 billion+ airport with subterranean LRT connecting to downtown.

? Metro Tulsa has always had steady growth which has increased since 2020.

The airport is never getting fully rebuilt but will continue to see renovations and expansions, including a new international concourse that is starting construction this spring
https://cdn.field59.com/KOTV/79dd0eb9686d33942159489ffb2ab68578b3ef24_Airport_C oncourse_custom.jpeg

Hadn’t even heard about the international concourse. Good to see that happening.

Tulsa is going to mess around and get an international flight or 2 before OKC gets one.

Oklahoma City needs to invest more expansion ($250 million) into WRWA and both WRWA and Tulsa International need to work together to bring international flights to our state with the future of an intercontinental flights in the mix.

Haven’t they consistently been loosing population? Not trying to talk sh!t but Tulsa could use a nice boost. This would’ve it and then some.


The city of Tulsa hit an all time peak population in 2020 of 413,066, the 2022 census estimate had the city losing a couple of thousand people to be at 411,867, but again, that's just an estimate. Tulsa's MSA has never lost population and sits at 1,034,123 as of the 2022 estimate.

Not only is there doubt, it's simply false that EV demand is falling.



https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/

Yup, demand isn't falling. The rate of demand increase is falling. Just like when the government "cuts" the budget by decreasing the rate of budget increase in the future.

I just got a Bolt EUV a month ago and it was a major PITA, they are pretty much all sold months before they enter production. The real issue is only so many people want to spend 50-100K on a car, and way to many EVs are in that price bracket. The cheaper ones aren't haven't issues.

Haven’t they consistently been loosing population? Not trying to talk sh!t but Tulsa could use a nice boost. This would’ve it and then some.

Tulsa should also completely rebuild its airport and get international flights. Sorry to say but I recently picked someone up there and to say it was comical is an understatement. Flying into there I’d feel like I’m going to some hick town. They need to completely demolish it and build a new $1 billion+ airport with subterranean LRT connecting to downtown.

TUL is just fine. There is really nothing about it that makes it worse than OKC. It's no DFW, obviously, but for TUL size market it is just fine. When I lived in Tulsa I used to fly out of it 45-55 times a year, there are a lot of worse airports.

I disagree. OKC is much more modern and not as cramped.

Tulsa should also completely rebuild its airport and get international flights ... and build a new $1 billion+ airport with subterranean LRT connecting to downtown.

Ah PluPan, your dreams are always good for amusement.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/11/f-150-lightning-ford-cuts-2024-production-plans-in-half.html


Cutting the F150 Lighting in half next year, doesn’t seem to be a positive in demand. This truck was supposed to be the cream of the crop when it comes to US Evs.

And they were supposed to be selling them starting at $35K.

At $35K, there would have been huge demand. Last I looked, I test drove one at Mainer in Okarche. They were provided one Lightning demo truck every 6 months.

And they were supposed to be selling them starting at $35K.
...

That's insanely cheap, my MINI Cooper SE EV was $30K (tax credit of $7500 brought it down really close to the regular MINI Cooper S price).

And they were supposed to be selling them starting at $35K.

At $35K, there would have been huge demand. Last I looked, I test drove one at Mainer in Okarche. They were provided one Lightning demo truck every 6 months.

I am sure they would sell more at $35k, but in reality, they are twice that much. Just a 30 second internet search of Joe Cooper Ford, they have about 30 Lightning on the lot and they are 2023, not the 2024.

I am sure they would sell more at $35k, but in reality, they are twice that much. Just a 30 second internet search of Joe Cooper Ford, they have about 30 Lightning on the lot and they are 2023, not the 2024.

At $35K, it really made sense. At $70K, well, that $20K-$35K markup would buy a lot of gas to put in an ICE vehicle.

And they were supposed to be selling them starting at $35K.

At $35K, there would have been huge demand. Last I looked, I test drove one at Mainer in Okarche. They were provided one Lightning demo truck every 6 months.
How did you like it? I’ve been thinking of getting one for my grandparents but it’s too expensive. I want a cheaper electric truck.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/CES-2024/Panasonic-says-plans-for-third-U.S.-EV-battery-plant-still-on


Panasonic Energy still plans to build a third electric vehicle battery plant in the U.S. despite scrapping a tentative plan last year to build a facility in Oklahoma, an executive told Nikkei Asia.

man, it's like i was right while all of you were saying i didn't know what i was talking about...

EDIT, added another quote after the article was updated.


Allan Swan, president of Panasonic Energy of North America, discussed the plans on the sidelines of the CES electronics trade show in Las Vegas on Monday. Swan did not provide details but said the company, which supplies Tesla, still needs "more plants" to reach its goal of increasing annual production capacity from 50 gigawatt-hours currently to 200 gigawatt-hours by 2031.

"We are always looking [for a potential site]," he said. "Oklahoma is still an option."


Panasonic recently ended its talks with the Oklahoma government about investing in the state. The company did not explain in detail the reasons for the decision, but it came amid speculation that the EV market might be not be growing as quickly as automakers initially hoped, with high interest rates and inflation cooling consumer sentiment.

But Swan denied that market trends affected the decision, saying there was "no slowdown" in demand for Panasonic's products. He said Panasonic was eyeing the U.S. in particular as "it's much more incentivized in America than in Canada."

One of Panasonic Group's top executives recently told Nikkei Asia that the reason for dropping the Oklahoma plan was not due to shrinking demand from Tesla, but because the Japanese company was prioritizing "searching for promising second or third new customers."

If Panasonic ends up announcing another plant in other state, that confirms that our inept state government scared them off, and are also scaring off many other good opportunities. If a great location and hundreds of millions in incentives isn't enough, then we are in even worse shape than I thought.

I know that EVs are going to keep growing in market share, but I do think there is a lot of haze in the market right now. Hard to see a clear winner yet. Tesla is obviously a giant, but a lot of people are trying to avoid Musk these days. Tecla's sales slowed down last Q, and they are Panasonics big client. I am hoping that this is the biggest issue preventing the Oklahoma plant from moving forward, rather than other things behind the scenes. The EV market will come back around with or without Tesla, but I don't expect OK to change much politically within the next decade or two.

Canoo is still faltering, and as we've discussed Ford isn't hitting the right notes yet. Kia did just announce a new line of EVs, but we'll see if they take off. Lot of waiting to see who actually takes on this market the right way.