And, technically, most retail stock trades don't directly help the company, either, since they're between investors, not the company and an investor.

50 million people in the U.S. don't trade options or day trade.

Scale matters, and it matters a lot.

50 million people in the U.S. don't trade options or day trade.

Scale matters, and it matters a lot.

It does for sure.

I think the worst part of it all is the scale caused by the mobile apps, not just in terms of the amount of bettors, but even more so the frequency of betting. By carrying a sports book in your pocket, there is nothing between the impulse and the bet for an addicted gambler. I do think people can gamble "responsibly", but the ease of betting combined with sports betting becoming ubiquitous in all sports related media just compounds the problem for those with a problem. The only real way for one to get away from it at this point is to not watch sports at all. Once that association is made between watching a sporting event and betting on it in real time, that is probably hard to break.

Also an app that sends you push notifications to bet is predatory. They know what they are doing and making hand over fist money. I personally don't gamble but have seen the toll it takes on addicts. And that was before it was right on your phone 24/7.

The SMU study on it was pretty wild: https://x.com/esaagar/status/1864703254854050058

"SMU monitored 700,000 online sports bettors. Less than 5% withdrew any profit. The rest were were losers. 3% of the losers lost so much they made up for 50% of the revenue"

There are tons of reports of college guys getting into deep trouble due to sports betting. Really big in frats and in the dorms.

That's darn young to develop a bad gambling habit.

It does for sure.

I think the worst part of it all is the scale caused by the mobile apps, not just in terms of the amount of bettors, but even more so the frequency of betting. By carrying a sports book in your pocket, there is nothing between the impulse and the bet for an addicted gambler. I do think people can gamble "responsibly", but the ease of betting combined with sports betting becoming ubiquitous in all sports related media just compounds the problem for those with a problem. The only real way for one to get away from it at this point is to not watch sports at all. Once that association is made between watching a sporting event and betting on it in real time, that is probably hard to break.I can definitely see the potential, maybe even probability of people starting to bet and it turning into a problem. I carefully plan my betting in frequency, amount and carefully studied risk. I average breaking even consistently. Which is what I aim for. I do it for fun. My wife is much the same with playing slot machines. She can go for hours and end up breaking even but having an entertaining afternoon in the process.
Oddly I hate fantasy leagues. I took part in a few when I worked for Kerr-McGee. I found myself every weekend worrying way more about how my players were doing than enjoying the games. I can bet spreads and over-unders and not get wrapped up in the outcomes. Just enjoy the games.

I gamble for fun. Sometimes it’s fun to go to somebody’s house and drink(although I’ve been sober for over a month now) and gamble on games, horse races, or at the casino. I always make sure that it’s money that I can lose and not sweat if I do. I think it’s fun and it should be legalized and regulated.

I gamble for fun. Sometimes it’s fun to go to somebody’s house and drink(although I’ve been sober for over a month now) and gamble on games, horse races, or at the casino. I always make sure that it’s money that I can lose and not sweat if I do. I think it’s fun and it should be legalized and regulated.

Good point, Plutonic Panda, good take on knowing your finances on what you can afford to gamble.

The people that get into trouble gambling or any gambling associated with speculation; my question 'Does Oklahoma have treatment facilities to address individual gambling issues?'
I've heard they use the same 12 steps used in the treatment of alcoholic addiction.

I don't gamble and wouldn't participate in Sports Betting if Oklahoma approved it.

Can somebody tell me how 'The Fat Jack Sports Service' based here in Oklahoma operates legally...

You can't place bets with the Fat Jack. You are just buying his recommendations on picks. I don't know how that could be deemed illegal.

There are tons of reports of college guys getting into deep trouble due to sports betting. Really big in frats and in the dorms.

That's darn young to develop a bad gambling habit.

This was true when I was in college 30 years ago. Nothing new.

This was true when I was in college 30 years ago. Nothing new.

Yeah, that x a million. Again, scale. You can't tell me it wouldn't be much, much worse with every college student having easy access to an app in their pocket.

Yeah, that x a million. Again, scale. You can't tell me it wouldn't be much, much worse with every college student having easy access to an app in their pocket.

Yeah, but that app doesn't let you bet on credit, which is where the trouble always comes.

Yeah, but that app doesn't let you bet on credit, which is where the trouble always comes.

It lets you use credit CARDS, which is exactly the same thing.

If I never saw a betting, alcohol or prescription drug ad again I'd be happy.

So much this. The prescription drug ads make me want to put my TV through a wall.

This is an excellent podcast about sports betting by Michael Lewis, the greatest business author of all time.

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules/against-the-rules-fans

Some key points:

80% of sports betting in the U.S. is controlled by Draft Kings and Fan Duel
It takes over a billion (and more likely 3 billion) to compete, due to their tech and marketing
Their huge advantage came from having millions of fantasy sports players on their sites (estimated at over 50 million in the U.S. as a whole)
They have been able to convert those fantasy players into direct sports betters to a very large degree in the states where sports betting has been legalized (which is now most of them)
The biggest casinos are even severely disadvantaged against DK and FD
Even in states limiting sports betting to the tribes (like the Seminoles in Florida), they cannot compete with FD and DK
Betters can easily circumvent the crappier tribal platforms by having friends bet on their behalf in other states where the tribes don't control
Many of the tribes end up partnering with DK and FD due to their dominance, tech, and marketing
Effectively, even if we limit sports betting to the tribes here in OK, a lot or most of the money is going to go to FD and DK
Those two sites are very sophisticated in inducing bettors to make very bad bets, such as parlays which are far more profitable than even casino games
There is now a secondary market where you can sell an existing bet you've made to another gambler


I've said it before: I do not see the value to society of making this legal here. I also realize it is going to happen anyway.

Rise up Against the Rules listeners! Love that somebody else I know listens to this podcast. It's my favorite one.

I found it fascinating that the lines aren't even precise, and that their model just preys on the people who go off of emotion.

Anybody that does know better gets limited so much it's not even worth placing on there.

Just now listening to another in Lewis's series on sports betting:

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules/episode-5-the-mule#play


This one will really make you cringe. The big gambling sites have sophisticated algorithms that constantly limit or expand the amount any particular gambler can bet at a time. And of course, for someone with a history of making successful bets, their max gets cut way down, while the bad gambler keeps getting his/her limit raised.

And if you lose enough, they actually assign a human to you to keep offering you discounts and sometimes free sports and concert tickets or even free money with which to bet.

So, of course, there is this whole other strategy of successful gamblers to find 'mules' who will bet on their behalf, because otherwise they can't put much money at risk. And even with these mules, there is a ton of time and effort spent trying to make them look incompetent (i.e. losing large amounts over a bunch of bets), so they can then get the VIP treatment with the perqs and higher betting limits.

And even though these sites are mandated to cut off addict gamblers or at the very least refer them to services, for these VIP losers, the real person on the betting site will encourage them not to complain about losses on the site, otherwise they'll be flagged and "nobody wants that".

Lewis had one of his producers set up a new Gmail account then download 3-4 betting apps and make small deposits, like $10. They said that account was so bombarded by promotions, it became completely unusable.


It's pretty clear Lewis is working on a big writing project, probably a book. And by the time it comes out and exposes lots of this ugliness, the genie will be long out of the bottle, as 38 states have already legalized sports betting.

^^^^ I got interested in following the casino business about 20 years ago. The tactics you are describing have been going on for 35-40 years. I recall reading a chapter in some book that the biggest percentage of revenue for Harrah's/Caesars around the millennium was widows from the central US.

Advanced metrics are alive and well.

^

But, again, those tactics could only be employed on people taking the trouble to travel to a casino. Now, virtually every American has a sports betting casino in their pocket 24/7.

Also, there is now AI and a massive digital engine to not only hammer out all the best possible algorithms, but also refine the psychology of effective push marketing via email, TV, and the internet.


Anybody trying to equate sports betting to what has happened in casinos or with old-time illegal bookies only helps to make the point of how little most people understand what is now happening.

I am not being argumentative or dismissive. Not one bit. But, it appears to me that there are a finite amount of people in America who can and will bet, and a finite amount of money they can lose? Sports betting will maximize their revenue opportunities, but every sports league (including the NCAA) knows how many sports entertainment dollars are possible in America. They will get all they can, but destroying lives through the vice of gambling is something they are ALL acutely aware of and carefully monitoring. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

I would argue the amount that can be gambled is absolutely not finite. Always new markets, more people, larger amounts.

And what difference does that make anyway when the top limit is so unbelievably huge that it has the possibility to ruin millions of lives?

And against this very real risk, I ask again: Where is the benefit to society?

Dustin Gouker at The Closing Line (closingline@substack.com) has pretty good coverage of what is going on. Senator Mike Lee and others are working to get more info and investigation out there.

^

But, again, those tactics could only be employed on people taking the trouble to travel to a casino. Now, virtually every American has a sports betting casino in their pocket 24/7.

Also, there is now AI and a massive digital engine to not only hammer out all the best possible algorithms, but also refine the psychology of effective push marketing via email, TV, and the internet.


Anybody trying to equate sports betting to what has happened in casinos or with old-time illegal bookies only helps to make the point of how little most people understand what is now happening.

It's basically the convergence of two industries that rely (prey?) on addiction psychology. Obviously, that's always been a part of gambling, but app designers have been using the same psychology that drives slot machines to create addiction to their platform to maximize engagement for years now. The algorithms are not designed to try and deliver what content you will most enjoy. They are built to deliver whatever content will make you keep using the app. The whole ecosystem is built on addiction.

There is no doubt they are just translating what they've learned from mining data to cultivate addition and baking it into all of this. I'm in no way some fundamentalist against gambling, and I do it on occasion myself, but it's not hard to see how this model will just compound the negative effects for many many gamblers. I don't know how many more lives will be negatively affected by it, but I do know it won't be less.

^

Don't forget sports are hugely addicting in themselves, so throw that in as a massive multiplier. 97 of the top 100 highest-rated TV shows in the last year were football games.

As previously stated, you already have 50 million Americans playing fantasy sports and they all have accounts on these betting sites. They are being converted to direct sports betting at a very high rate.

And it was those fantasy sites (now full-blown online casinos) who lobbied to change the federal ban on sports betting and thus first allowing fantasy sports, now direct sports books, always with this strategy in mind.

The big boys have been working this long game for over 10 years and now everyone is just walking off the cliff.

One of my FF teams is on Sleeper... they show me prop bets I can make on their betting site on my own players!

I guess I didn't realize you can use a credit card to add funds to these sites. That's actually insane.

I guess I didn't realize you can use a credit card to add funds to these sites. That's actually insane.

I won't name names but I've been following the plight of a pretty shady dude, and through BK he just completely discharged $400,000 (!!!) in credit card debt.

The first question is: How does someone get that much credit? And as it turns out it's pretty easy if you just continue to make minimum payments over time. There were like 40 different credit accounts, and that $400K doesn't include car loans and business loans.


Even in the handful of states with CC restrictions for online gambling it's easy circumvented by either taking cash advances or using a VPN or mule to gamble in states with less strict laws.

I guess I didn't realize you can use a credit card to add funds to these sites. That's actually insane.
Yeah. Being online the primary way of funding is a credit/debit card.

^

Don't forget sports are hugely addicting in themselves, so throw that in as a massive multiplier. 97 of the top 100 highest-rated TV shows in the last year were football games.

As previously stated, you already have 50 million Americans playing fantasy sports and they all have accounts on these betting sites. They are being converted to direct sports betting at a very high rate.

And it was those fantasy sites (now full-blown online casinos) who lobbied to change the federal ban on sports betting and thus first allowing fantasy sports, now direct sports books, always with this strategy in mind.

The big boys have been working this long game for over 10 years and now everyone is just walking off the cliff.

I guess I should really be really thankful I'm in control of my addictions. Because yes, sports in general is addictive. Over the past many years I've spent countless hours studying the science of baseball and football. Like what FB offensive schemes will line up and run what plays out of that formation. Or use that formation to fake out the defense. And how the defenses line up and check off to try and outguess the offense.
Same with baseball strategy.
Also with assessing betting spreads and O/U predictions. But I can study betting stuff and only actually bet a little bit on a few things I'm pretty sure of. I never win much but I never lose much. I break pretty close to even and have fun. Never ever have I had any urge to go crazy betting.

^

Don't forget sports are hugely addicting in themselves, so throw that in as a massive multiplier. 97 of the top 100 highest-rated TV shows in the last year were football games.

As previously stated, you already have 50 million Americans playing fantasy sports and they all have accounts on these betting sites. They are being converted to direct sports betting at a very high rate.

And it was those fantasy sites (now full-blown online casinos) who lobbied to change the federal ban on sports betting and thus first allowing fantasy sports, now direct sports books, always with this strategy in mind.

The big boys have been working this long game for over 10 years and now everyone is just walking off the cliff.

there wasn't a "lobby" to change the federal ban it was a Supreme Court case .. they have lobbied to change the law in just about every state however ..

there wasn't a "lobby" to change the federal ban it was a Supreme Court case .. they have lobbied to change the law in just about every state however ..

The Supreme Court case came from a lobbying movement.

The sports betting lobby funneled millions into getting a sports betting referendum onto the ballot in NJ, and when it passed by 2/3rd, then Governor Chris Christie had to cave and enact a law allowing sports betting. Then, it went to the Supreme Court which struck down the federal ban which had been authored by Bill Bradley.

And then the lobby went to work in every state, resulting in 38 of them passing pro sports betting laws.


And the reason the lobby had so much money is because Fan Duel and Draft Kings had already lobbied some states (starting with Kansas because it was easiest) to allow daily fantasy sports, which is full-out sports gambling that they managed to convince legislatures were just games of skill. Once they got rich from this, they turned their efforts to full-on sports gambling legalization and here we are today.

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules/episode-3-welcome-to-the-garden-state#play

You people must not realize that you can use a credit card at the casinos in this state. Not just a cash advance, but you can "purchase gaming tickets" for up to $5k (with $100s in casino fees). I don't think you can sit there and paint sports gambling as the bad boogey man, without looking at the harm of Indian casinos (specifically slots).

You people must not realize that you can use a credit card at the casinos in this state. Not just a cash advance, but you can "purchase gaming tickets" for up to $5k (with $100s in casino fees). I don't think you can sit there and paint sports gambling as the bad boogey man, without looking at the harm of Indian casinos (specifically slots).

Everyone knows about the ample harm of the casinos.

Sports betting will amply this by many magnitudes, that's the issue. And the fact that legalizing it is an open topic to be decided in OK.

In the first 3 minutes of game time between the Chiefs and Browns, I've seen FIVE sports betting commercials.

In the first 3 minutes of game time between the Chiefs and Browns, I've seen FIVE sports betting commercials.

Yes, the commercials, plus all the betting talk during the pregame shows, plus all the betting info being shown as part of the sports ticker, plus all the digital betting ads during the game play, etc. I used to have to look up the betting line in the back of the sports section if I was curious. Now it's as common info as the team's place in the standings.

As a non-gamble, it's annoying as hell and does not encourage me to watch any of the non-essential parts of sports programming, like pregame shows. Seems like they solely focus on betting and any info offered is to influence betting.

Yes, the commercials, plus all the betting talk during the pregame shows, plus all the betting info being shown as part of the sports ticker, plus all the digital betting ads during the game play, etc. I used to have to look up the betting line in the back of the sports section if I was curious. Now it's as common info as the team's place in the standings.

As a non-gamble, it's annoying as hell and does not encourage me to watch any of the non-essential parts of sports programming, like pregame shows. Seems like they solely focus on betting and any info offered is to influence betting.

I'm far from being the spokesperson for morality, but I would not be opposed to making gambling and alcohol advertisements illegal.

Alcoholism and gambling addiction are serious problems. And sadly they can go hand and hand. Drink a few beers, become brave, and bet $100 on the Cleveland Browns.

I'm far from being the spokesperson for morality, but I would not be opposed to making gambling and alcohol advertisements illegal.

Alcoholism and gambling addiction are serious problems. And sadly they can go hand and hand. Drink a few beers, become brave, and bet $100 on the Cleveland Browns.
If you're inclined to do such you're likely to do it advertising or not. Just like I, admittedly, get more brazen on here after a couple beers than I normally would be. Or should be. And advertising has nothing to do with it. Way to many of peoples faults get blamed on outside sources when the fault is the person.

We can't blame advertisers for people's lack of self-responsibility... but gone are the days of holding people accountable for their actions.

If you're inclined to do such you're likely to do it advertising or not. Just like I, admittedly, get more brazen on here after a couple beers than I normally would be. Or should be. And advertising has nothing to do with it. Way to many of peoples faults get blamed on outside sources when the fault is the person.

Maybe so.

But we aren't the target audience in those commercials. It's predatory.

Now we have the Mannings promoting sports betting... How much attention and money does Peyton Manning need, for crying out loud? Is there anything he won't do?

Also, you can already see how the promos focus heavily on parlays/compound bets. It's because a parlay is statistically about the worst bet you can place, which also makes them the most profitable for advertisers. But look how fun it is and how easy it is to win! Famous athletes and comedians say so!

Now we have the Mannings promoting sports betting... How much attention and money does Peyton Manning need, for crying out loud? Is there anything he won't do?

Also, you can already see how the promos focus heavily on parlays/compound bets. It's because a parlay is statistically about the worst bet you can place, which also makes them the most profitable for advertisers. But look how fun it is and how easy it is to win! Famous athletes and comedians say so!

Yeah the betting ads with Lebron just feel wrong. With all the issues with refs/coaches/players fixing games in the past, it feels completely tone deaf, especially in the NBA. I just hate all of it.

We can't blame advertisers for people's lack of self-responsibility... but gone are the days of holding people accountable for their actions.

Just like cigarettes, the problem starts when your a kid. Manning and James are heroes to these young minds. That carries on to when they are young adults. So yeah there should be a surgeon general's warning attached to the act of gambling.

We can't blame advertisers for people's lack of self-responsibility... but gone are the days of holding people accountable for their actions.

The problem is the advertising of something that is illegal for those under 18 to those who are well under 18. Just like those cigarette or alcohol ads that used to basically target kids.

The problem is the advertising of something that is illegal for those under 18 to those who are well under 18. Just like those cigarette or alcohol ads that used to basically target kids.

Yeah, advertising to minors is a completely different issue mentioned after my post. My post was more of the people losing their house or car or something to that extent.

With 38 states, Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico now offering legal sports betting, more Americans than ever are projected to bet on the biggest wagering event of the year.

Legal American sportsbooks could take an estimated $1.39 billion in bets for Super Bowl LIX between the Kansas City Chiefs and Philadelphia Eagles, according to an annual report from the American Gaming Association (AGA).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/43691763/americans-expected-bet-139b-legally-super-bowl-lix

Something I recently learned that I found interesting, Draft Kings has employees here in the OKC area that travel for work to legalized gambling states.

Draft Kings and Fan Duel -- by far the biggest on-line casinos -- have been lobbying hard here in Oklahoma, as they have in every other state.

Draft Kings and Fan Duel -- by far the biggest on-line casinos -- have been lobbying hard here in Oklahoma, as they have in every other state.

This person isn't a lobbyist. They are outside sales. That is why I found it interesting.

They probably know it will pass in Oklahoma in the near future and want to hit the ground running.

It's got to be the most profitable business ever: have the software and app, and sit back and watch people give you billions.

It's got to be the most profitable business ever: have the software and app, and sit back and watch people give you billions.

2nd to health and auto insurance: have the software and app, and sit back and watch people give you billions.

Not sure if it's been discussed, but prop betting is legal here. I can bet that any player will hit an over/under on a particular stat. But, I can't bet on the outcome of a game. Seems weird how the laws work.

2nd to health and auto insurance: have the software and app, and sit back and watch people give you billions.

The insurance industry in the U.S. employs almost 3 million people.

Not remotely comparable to a purely web-based casino.

The insurance industry in the U.S. employs almost 3 million people.

Not remotely comparable to a purely web-based casino.

Not really sure why the amount of employees matters. Was more so making a jab at how its a similar industry to giving money and rarely gaining anything in return (i.e. gambling)

Not really sure why the amount of employees matters. Was more so making a jab at how its a similar industry to giving money and rarely gaining anything in return (i.e. gambling)

Because at least there is a society benefit, a real economic impact, and an absolute need for insurance; our economy could not operate without it. And of course people get something from insurance. I would not have been able to get a lot of very needed care over the last few years without it, and I've needed it several times when someone hit my car.

Sports betting is just a few companies raking in billions and sending many people into ruin.

Not remotely the same; a total false equivalency.

I agree it can be hurtful to society but it’s an individuals choice to do it and if they want to gamble their money we don’t need a nanny state telling them not to. It isn’t directly hurting anyone else but themselves.

I agree it can be hurtful to society but it’s an individuals choice to do it and if they want to gamble their money we don’t need a nanny state telling them not to. It isn’t directly hurting anyone else but themselves.

We are talking about changing an existing law in Oklahoma to allow sports betting, not the other way around.

So, the onus falls on the people who want to change it and there is far, far, far more harm than society benefit.


This make everything legal argument is silly. We have rules and laws for a reason in this country. Why not legalize all drugs, prostitution, human trafficking, etc.?? Just wait 10 years and see how many people are ruined by sports gambling, then it will be far too late to put the genie back in the bottle.

Same could be said for alcohol. No one said make everything legal. Would I make cocaine legal? Yes. Must mean I’d allow murder to be legal right?

Give me a break. We’re talking about sports betting. It should be legal. Personal opinion emphasized.

^

Just responding to the indiscriminate and blanket "nanny state" comment that only comes up when someone wants one particular thing legalized, while literally thousands of laws stay on the books.

^

Just responding to the indiscriminate and blanket "nanny state" comment that only comes up when someone wants one particular thing legalized, while literally thousands of laws stay on the books.
What I meant by that was regarding this particular issue it should be legal to bet on sports. I actually agree with gambling is an issue and as you well know I suffer from substance abuse issues I’m overcoming it but we all make our own decisions. It’s a bad deal but I don’t think it should be illegal. It should be regulated and taxed and people should be educated on the negatives.

How much do you want to bet that sports betting becomes legal in Oklahoma within a few years? (Joke)

How much do you want to bet that sports betting becomes legal in Oklahoma within a few years? (Joke)

I don't know, joke or not, but if Oklahoma legislators once again refuse to legalize sports betting this session, then activists might as well petition for a state vote to legalize it. I would suggest making it for the state statutes rather than for the state constitution since the former requires fewer signatures. Also, people might be more inclined to sign for and vote yes for a statute change since it would be easier for legislators to change it than if it was legalized under the state constitution.

Legalizing medical marijuana in Oklahoma got delayed because the original plan by promoters was to legalize it under the state constitution under the impression later proved false that state legislators would just throw it out or totally gut it, if it wasn't. After all, the state legislature reserves the power to as much as throw out changes in the state statutes approved by the voters. But in response to voters in June 2018 approving medical marijuana, the legislature and Gov. Fallin surprised everyone by respecting the will of the voters on that issue, mindful of the general election to come in Nov. 2018. Therefore, it was decided not to call for a special legislative session to deal with voters approving of legalized medical marijuana. Just let the state health dept. worry about instigating it as specified under SQ788 as voter approved.

The legendary activism associated with the petition for SQ788 and the election that led to the legalization of medical marijuana in Oklahoma is worthy of a book about it as well as a movie! What next? A legendary story to get legalized sports betting legalized in Oklahoma? I tend to doubt the rise to legendary status though, since unlike with marijuana, nobody in Oklahoma is going to prison for years over being caught placing a sports bet. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Gov. Stitt isn't opposed to legalized sports gambling so if a petition was successful, he would likely not want to put off setting an election date for it. I suppose the nearest statewide election date for it would be for the 2026 primary elections in June. My guess is the election result would be close.