Plans were just submitted for Primrose School (daycare) on the NE corner of NW 13th and Western.

That land is owned by the Midtown Renaissance group.

I should have the exact plans in a couple of days, but the filing indicates the building will be 2 stories, so different than the other Primrose locations in Yukon, 150th & N. Western and MacArthur just north of Memorial, as well as Yukon, Moore and Norman.

I suppose this is due to the large number of young families now living in the core.

It's a big national chain: https://www.primroseschools.com/

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Interesting. You are likely correct that this is a response to the number of families with kids in the area, and it is a good sign for the city. I will hope that the franchisor will give the local owner the flexibility to create a more urban looking building on the property, with a context similar to what Catholic Charities did a few blocks south.

very nice about the new school, I wish them well and yes hope they are building urban with the two floor proposal.

just curious looking at the picture, any thoughts on the large surface parking with the highrise? Is there appetite to build a garage with retail on the bottom (say along 10th) and repurpose the rest of the square block of surface parking? Too bad the highrise wasn't built closer to Saint Anthony but I assume there were other buildings inbetween that got torn down; now it's in an island of its own (the parking crater is a bit of an eyesore if you ask me)

very nice about the new school, I wish them well and yes hope they are building urban with the two floor proposal.

just curious looking at the picture, any thoughts on the large surface parking with the highrise? Is there appetite to build a garage with retail on the bottom (say along 10th) and repurpose the rest of the square block of surface parking? Too bad the highrise wasn't built closer to Saint Anthony but I assume there were other buildings inbetween that got torn down; now it's in an island of its own (the parking crater is a bit of an eyesore if you ask me)

I never noticed that parking lot. Now I can't stop seeing it as it sticks out like a sore thumb. Yes, build a parking garage next to the building and then some mid rise apartments next door. ASAP! lol

There was definitely a void left by Villa Teresa. This will be a nice addition to the neighborhood.

very nice about the new school, I wish them well and yes hope they are building urban with the two floor proposal.

just curious looking at the picture, any thoughts on the large surface parking with the highrise? Is there appetite to build a garage with retail on the bottom (say along 10th) and repurpose the rest of the square block of surface parking? Too bad the highrise wasn't built closer to Saint Anthony but I assume there were other buildings inbetween that got torn down; now it's in an island of its own (the parking crater is a bit of an eyesore if you ask me)

If they get those Pasteur Apartments built across the street from the high rise that will help, a little, with the parking crater. But yes the big problem is that main lot.

and the weird thing is it wouldn't be so bad if it weren't empty most of the time. ...

And I’m looking at this photo, and wow, this gas station seems like such a huge amount of land …

We send our kid to the one on the South side 119th and Penn and have really enjoyed the school. This is much more than a daycare and far better than the other chain's people typically think of. I know the one in Yukon is identical to our school. Also I don't believe there is one in Moore, just Norman, 2 in North OKC, Edmond, and Yukon.

This will be completely packed as soon as it opens, Primrose typically has a waiting list months out so they will do very well in the core with limited options on the high-end side.

I have an employee who would enroll her child today if it were available. Quality early child care options in the central part of the city are pretty slim pickings. These types of challenges are a limiting factor for economic growth and residential development in downtown.

Logistics for pick-up/drop-off of pre-K and even school age children are a real challenge when it comes to attracting and retaining an educated/professional workforce or residents who have started families. Developments like this are important if we want to sustain the redevelopment momentum in downtown and central OKC.

By the way, I’d expect that more than half of the enrolled families would be suburban with parents working downtown/near-downtown.

Glad it's not a 7-11 going in across from OnCue

Glad it's not a 7-11 going in across from OnCue

LOL, wouldn't that be par for the course!

What a fantastic use of that corner. Is this in a design review district?

Googling around a bit, I wonder if the plan will look something like this:

https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17288&d=1642605211

^

Yes, that property falls within the Downtown Design Review district.

They filed a design application and I'm waiting on an open records request.

What a fantastic use of that corner. Is this in a design review district?
…


Yes. It’s in DTD-1/A2 (Downtown Transitional District 1/A2), which is a very thin slice of the north side of 13th. I’m unfamiliar with the specific design guidelines there, but it IS subject to design review by the DDRC.

Edit: as I suspected would happen, Pete beat me to the answer (in my defense I was fleshing out a more detailed answer as I knew it was subject to DDRC review but unsure of the exact sub district designation).

This will be completely packed as soon as it opens, Primrose typically has a waiting list months out so they will do very well in the core with limited options on the high-end side.


yep

Primrose of East Edmond (on 2nd street next to Pub W) was already on a waiting list 6 months before opening ...

so interesting that day care hasn't been a "concern" for the CBD area worth investing in. ...

Here are the plans. The building will face east, towards the parking area.


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looks like a starbucks, which is fine, but a missed opportunity on a prominent corner. better than empty land of course. and still better than a 7-11.

It should face 13th.

A 7,753 SF building footprint and a 15,353 SF parking lot. The front of the building turning its back to the street. Yikes.

Nonetheless this is good infill and with the OnCue this area will become more activated.

Mildly disappointing site design, but yeah it's still good infill and a needed service for downtown residents.

At least part of the building is up against the street and they didn't do a layout with the building set against the north side of the property with the parking lot in front along 13th. I'm also a little surprised they didn't propose a design that included their standard peaked roof look, when I was googling for images of their locations that was quite common including on some of the two story designs as I posted above.

looks like a starbucks, which is fine, but a missed opportunity on a prominent corner. better than empty land of course. and still better than a 7-11.

What looks like a starbucks? the playground?

looks like they want to be viewed from the neighborhood more than from the road. Their sign is also on the neighborhood side instead of the street-side.

looks like they want to be viewed from the neighborhood more than from the road. Their sign is also on the neighborhood side instead of the street-side.

It looks to me the sign is along 13th Street. And I'm not sure what you mean being viewed by the neighborhood. The front door is not facing the neighborhood. ?

Ouch, I saw Midtown Renaissance and was hoping that we would get nice thing, another missed opportunity for a prime location. This is how a kindergarten for low income families in a pretty poor county looks like. What has happened to nowadays architectural taste?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1a/d5/b4/1ad5b48f7b5d46ee56a848581ea68035--green-school-amazing-architecture.jpg

looks like they want to be viewed from the neighborhood more than from the road. Their sign is also on the neighborhood side instead of the street-side.

The sign is on 13th street. The same street the building should be addressing. I wasn't expecting this development to be some poster child for great urban design, but to see this building completely turn its ack to the street is surprising. That's the bare minimum for urban design. Hopefully design review can step in on this. I think this will be a great amenity to add to the core but the site layout is terrible.

looks like they want to be viewed from the neighborhood more than from the road. Their sign is also on the neighborhood side instead of the street-side.

they don't really "want" or need to be viewed from anywhere .. they will be full with a wait list the second they start taking reservations ..

^^^
Agree. The architect who came up with this layout wasn't serious about their practice, and, I'd say, didn't care about improving the beauty of this neighborhood, this city at all. I don't even want to mention the developer(s).

Maybe it's the most efficient use of space for what they're trying to fit into that sort of smashed rectangular lot. IDK, the way the building faces I guess isn't a big deal to me.

Maybe it's the most efficient use of space for what they're trying to fit into that sort of smashed rectangular lot. IDK, the way the building faces I guess isn't a big deal to me.

It was designed by one of the best architects in that country, a serious guy with a high standard.

With houses and apartments to the East and lots of residential to the North East, I'd say it's more residential than a 6-lane road, a gas station, a Family Planning org, and a Community sentencing org to the West.

The parking lot almost necessarily needs to be in its current location. Your (drive) entrance would either be from Classen Northbound (since Classen has a curbed median there) or off 13th street, which having 5 lanes immediately next to Classen would make it nearly impossible to turn across 3 lanes into the entrance, especially when people leaving the school after dropoff would likely be heading West towards the larger road. Unless you head Westbound on 13th street. So, move the parking lot East along 13th to the point 13th is only 4 lanes of traffic. Here, someone Eastbound would only have to cross over 2 lanes vs 3.

Also, if there is a lot of traffic for dropoff, 13th street would be better to be backed up waiting to get into the parking lot than Classen.

If you consider that the playgrounds are attached to the rooms (direct access to the playground from the classroom), it makes it much more difficult to orient the building.

Now if you place the school along and facing Classen, the parking, thus pickup and dropoff, would require walking around the playgrounds along two streets to get to the front of the building.

Facing South would put the front doors of the school against 13th street in order to get the playgrounds connected directly to the classrooms behind the school against the residential area. If parking is kept where it is right now, it would require walking with your kids along the sidewalk of 13 st. By mirroring the building, you could fit the littles' playgrounds against the corner of Classen and 13th - which I think would be a fairly bad idea, otherwise, your school is still separated from the parking lot by a, albeit small, playground.

I'm curious how some of the posters who do not like this placement would lay out the campus? How the parking, family entrance and secure playground would flow?

The playground faces Classen. I think the urban core should want to see the playing little children.

Of course they want to be viewed from a specific direction. All these posters hating on the layout are complaining because they won't be able to view it from a particular direction. It is clearly a consideration. Putting the sign in that location helps to bias people to approach the school from Westbound 13th street, which would minimize traffic and potential wrecks. I'm sure you're special and the exception, but most people approach an establishment from the location of the sign in most situations. (Note, I said most - obviously I do not mean "all")

With houses and apartments to the East and lots of residential to the North East, I'd say it's more residential than a 6-lane road, a gas station, a Family Planning org, and a Community sentencing org to the West.

The parking lot almost necessarily needs to be in its current location. Your (drive) entrance would either be from Classen Northbound (since Classen has a curbed median there) or off 13th street, which having 5 lanes immediately next to Classen would make it nearly impossible to turn across 3 lanes into the entrance, especially when people leaving the school after dropoff would likely be heading West towards the larger road. Unless you head Westbound on 13th street. So, move the parking lot East along 13th to the point 13th is only 4 lanes of traffic. Here, someone Eastbound would only have to cross over 2 lanes vs 3.

Also, if there is a lot of traffic for dropoff, 13th street would be better to be backed up waiting to get into the parking lot than Classen.

If you consider that the playgrounds are attached to the rooms (direct access to the playground from the classroom), it makes it much more difficult to orient the building.

Now if you place the school along and facing Classen, the parking, thus pickup and dropoff, would require walking around the playgrounds along two streets to get to the front of the building.

Facing South would put the front doors of the school against 13th street in order to get the playgrounds connected directly to the classrooms behind the school against the residential area. If parking is kept where it is right now, it would require walking with your kids along the sidewalk of 13 st. By mirroring the building, you could fit the littles' playgrounds against the corner of Classen and 13th - which I think would be a fairly bad idea, otherwise, your school is still separated from the parking lot by a, albeit small, playground.

That is exactly how the building should be orientated.

It's sometimes sad when I see a new project proposed in okc because I look and think "no one actually would allow this to get built". Good architecture doesn't mean it has to cost a ton of money. This is lazy architecture. This is a school, a place where imagination should run free and instead it looks like a suburban jail. Why not something funky and loud? Or at least something minimal and modern? Why this? Hahaha
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That is exactly how the building should be orientated.

So you're saying the front doors at the entrance of the place should be located right off of 13th street, right up next to the sidewalk, where little kids break free from their parents and run into the street at rush hour?

O but most people approach an establishment from the location of the sign in most situations. (Note, I said most - obviously I do not mean "all")

most people approach an establishment from the direction they are coming from .. period ... not the sign ..

It's sometimes sad when I see a new project proposed in okc because I look and think "no one actually would allow this to get built". Good architecture doesn't mean it has to cost a ton of money. This is lazy architecture. This is a school, a place where imagination should run free and instead it looks like a suburban jail. Why not something funky and loud? Or at least something minimal and modern? Why this? Hahaha
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Expecting Primrose to go with a design like that is nonsensical. They are a large company with normal looking buildings all over the country, they aren't going to depart from that design standard.

And JFC the jail comparison again, please learn another analogy.

So you're saying the front doors at the entrance of the place should be located right off of 13th street, right up next to the sidewalk, where little kids break free from their parents and run into the street at rush hour?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This notion of children walking on a sidewalk is somehow dangerous is strange. This is in the urban core. Many parents would probably like the ability to walk their small children to this facility from their home using multiple street adjacent sidewalks. I am much more concerned about my child getting run over in a parking lot than on a sidewalk.

There is nothing wrong with littles walking on the sidewalk. But it would be asinine to suggest that walking on a sidewalk near a large intersection is at least equally as safe as walking through a school parking lot. If the choice is between providing a safer environment for littles or making randoms on the internet happy with which way a building faces - it is quite clear which should be prioritized.

Not to mention that the proposed design places handicap parking adjacent to the entrance which would be a much shorter distance and easier path for a disabled person to either attend school or to take their child to the building.

My main complaint about the design is that the fence is a decorative fence. I would have something more than decoration for the fence line adjacent to Classen in that curve.

Surprising how few children are killed in large cities all over the world because they're on sidewalks next to busy streets. You'd think we'd hear more about it if kids in NYC and Chicago were killed/injured/abducted all the time because they were on a busy-street sidewalk. :D

I'm sure you realize that is not what I said or what I implied - Or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

There is nothing wrong with littles walking on the sidewalk. But it would be asinine to suggest that walking on a sidewalk near a large intersection is at least equally as safe as walking through a school parking lot. If the choice is between providing a safer environment for littles or making randoms on the internet happy with which way a building faces - it is quite clear which should be prioritized.

Not to mention that the proposed design places handicap parking adjacent to the entrance which would be a much shorter distance and easier path for a disabled person to either attend school or to take their child to the building.

My main complaint about the design is that the fence is a decorative fence. I would have something more than decoration for the fence line adjacent to Classen in that curve.

Since the number of moving cars on a sidewalk is zero and the number of moving cars in a parking lot is considerably more than zero I would have to disagree with your statement.

I'm sure you realize that is not what I said or what I implied - Or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

Just saying that kids walk on sidewalks along busy streets in cities all over the world without having bad things happen to them, contrary to what some posts above seem to be saying. Your post had good points to make, not sure I agree with them, but thanks for making well-thought-out posts.

Here’s what we look for in a potential site:

Primrose School of Brookhaven is basically what is proposed here in Midtown OKC.

Size: 8,000 to 15,000 sq. ft.

Type of space: First floor above grade or some second-floor space

Requirements: Direct access to a minimum of:

5,000 sq. ft. of flat outdoor space for secured playground area
Building or monument signage desirable
Adequate staff parking and nearby drop-off and pick-up zone
Location: Near large office complex, university, hospital employment or middle- to upper-income residential

Children: 1,500 within a two-mile radius, ages 0-4

https://franchise.primroseschools.com/blog/working-with-you-how-primrose-adapts-to-commerical-site-requirements/

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This notion of children walking on a sidewalk is somehow dangerous is strange. This is in the urban core. Many parents would probably like the ability to walk their small children to this facility from their home using multiple street adjacent sidewalks. I am much more concerned about my child getting run over in a parking lot than on a sidewalk.

I'm pretty sure the school has thought this through and thus the reason they chose the layout of the lot. As a parent, I would rather the entrance be as far from the road and as close to the parking lot as possible -- not only for safety, but to also minimize the effects from weather for parents and their kids walking between their vehicles and the door. This is especially because there's no drive through breezeway drop-off point. I imagine most parents in a focus group would be of this opinion and not caring how a building looks from the street as a result of being sideways. If you google search some photos of this school, some locations have a large circle drive. I would imagine if the lot was big enough they would have tried to do the same, then you'd have the building facing front. But this lot along the street is a weird rectangle and is more wide than deep. Anyway....

I'm pretty sure the school has thought this through and thus the reason they chose the layout of the lot. As a parent, I would rather the entrance be as far from the road and as close to the parking lot as possible -- not only for safety, but to also minimize the effects from weather for parents and their kids walking between their vehicles and the door. This is especially because there's no drive through breezeway drop-off point. I imagine most parents in a focus group would be of this opinion and not caring how a building looks from the street as a result of being sideways. If you google search some photos of this school, some locations have a large circle drive. I would imagine if the lot was big enough they would have tried to do the same, then you'd have the building facing front. But this lot along the street is a weird rectangle and is more wide than deep. Anyway....


Here is a good example of how this lot should be developed. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Primrose+School+of+Willow+Glen/@37.2941894,-121.9084329,75a,35y,241.55h,45.04t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808e34989aba7447:0x4990a 3b4291f7f0c!8m2!3d37.2940128!4d-121.9093666?hl=en) Somehow Primrose was ok with this and didn't require the building to have an entrance off of the street or think the kids were in imminent danger.

I'm sure the focus group that doesn't want to take more than 5 steps out of their car already live in the suburbs and would not utilize this location anyway. As someone with an 8 month old that lives walking distance from this location, I would like urban core locations to cater to more than just people in cars. .It has nothing to do with how the building looks, it is about how people access and interact with the building. It is also about how how the building interacts and enhances the neighborhood. That is the entire point of urban design. This layout is perfectly fine for Edmond but not for this location.

If a daycare near a busy intersection is unsafe for children then the argument should be 1. against the daycare being built at that intersection, or 2. that the intersections need to be better designed to encourage the safety of the children. Arguing against an urban design in the urban core or that sidewalks are more dangerous than parking lots is circular at best. The perceived lack of safety is magnified from urban design and walkability/sidewalks being an afterthought; you don’t ease that by forcing a development into a spot where safety is of genuine concern and design it in a way that shelters it largely from the surrounding area, at least if you want a connected core that actually is safe for those that live in it. Of course, this is a needed development coming from a sought after provider, so it’ll likely thrive no matter how it’s designed or what unsafe intersection it’s near. Focusing on how disconnected it should be for safety reasons misses the much more important discussion of why an area is unsafe to begin with as well as if a development is functionally appropriate for that particular location, though.

Here is a good example of how this lot should be developed. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Primrose+School+of+Willow+Glen/@37.2941894,-121.9084329,75a,35y,241.55h,45.04t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808e34989aba7447:0x4990a 3b4291f7f0c!8m2!3d37.2940128!4d-121.9093666?hl=en) Somehow Primrose was ok with this and didn't require the building to have an entrance off of the street or think the kids were in imminent danger.

I'm sure the focus group that doesn't want to take more than 5 steps out of their car already live in the suburbs and would not utilize this location anyway. As someone with an 8 month old that lives walking distance from this location, I would like urban core locations to cater to more than just people in cars. That is the entire point of urban design. This layout is perfectly fine for Edmond but not for this location.

That's an interesting example, much more like the two story design I was expecting with the peaked roof theme.

hopefully the 1 floor rendering was an accident. I too am disappointed there's no interaction with classen blvd, at LEAST they could have some architectural design facing that way (even their gables would work) rather than a blank wall and play-yards. Speaking of which, WHY oh WHY are the playground abutting 13th and Classen? Child safety anyone????

I am thankful parking is not on classen but if it were me I'd have the building fronting sidewalk at 13th and Classen, have the play yards next to each other away from the street on the other side of the building with the parking probably where it is along 13th but smaller footprint since this is Midtown urban area.

Perhaps some of my thoughts will be realized during the design review; Great infill and a very much needed service but not a good job at recognizing/utilizing the location or child safety.

hopefully the 1 floor rendering was an accident. I too am disappointed there's no interaction with classen blvd, at LEAST they could have some architectural design facing that way (even their gables would work) rather than a blank wall and play-yards. Speaking of which, WHY oh WHY are the playground abutting 13th and Classen? Child safety anyone????

I am thankful parking is not on classen but if it were me I'd have the building fronting sidewalk at 13th and Classen, have the play yards next to each other away from the street on the other side of the building with the parking probably where it is along 13th but smaller footprint since this is Midtown urban area.

Perhaps some of my thoughts will be realized during the design review; Great infill and a very much needed service but not a good job at recognizing/utilizing the location or child safety.

Build high fences, lock any gates, and hire enough qualified personnel to make sure no kid climbs the fence when they're on recess, don't design a building based on "child safety".

ok I see your opinion, but as a parent I totally disagree with you Travellers.

btw, I wouldn't be worried about my kid escaping or climbing the fence.

btw, I wouldn't be worried about my kid escaping or climbing the fence.
https://c.tenor.com/EXX1gCzNLlYAAAAC/greatescape-cooler.gif

The Oklahoman has a blurb about this today (right on cue).

Here is a good example of how this lot should be developed. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Primrose+School+of+Willow+Glen/@37.2941894,-121.9084329,75a,35y,241.55h,45.04t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808e34989aba7447:0x4990a 3b4291f7f0c!8m2!3d37.2940128!4d-121.9093666?hl=en) Somehow Primrose was ok with this and didn't require the building to have an entrance off of the street or think the kids were in imminent danger.

I'm sure the focus group that doesn't want to take more than 5 steps out of their car already live in the suburbs and would not utilize this location anyway. As someone with an 8 month old that lives walking distance from this location, I would like urban core locations to cater to more than just people in cars. .It has nothing to do with how the building looks, it is about how people access and interact with the building. It is also about how how the building interacts and enhances the neighborhood. That is the entire point of urban design. This layout is perfectly fine for Edmond but not for this location.

In this case, the dropoff zone is also removed off the main street and separated from the traffic by both a bike lane and cars in the drop off zone.
Maybe they should have used the right-most lane of Classen as a drop-off lane removed from traffic like they do in your example? It's almost like their schools face their drop-off zone or something.....

In this case, the dropoff zone is also removed off the main street and separated from the traffic by both a bike lane and cars in the drop off zone.
Maybe they should have used the right-most lane of Classen as a drop-off lane removed from traffic like they do in your example? It's almost like their schools face their drop-off zone or something.....

Yea this argument would make sense if there was a specific drop off zone created for the primrose school just so they could have the front face their “drop off zone.” But what you are seeing is just public on street parallel parking and bike lanes that run down both sides of the street well beyond the school. It was clearly not done specifically for school drop off and was actually put in after the school had been designed, built, and operating.

If you are suggesting that the building’s urban design influenced the city into going in and implementing the complete redesign and road diet of an entire area after the fact, then I would say that is a great argument for insisting on good urban design here. Good design often leads to more good design.

If the roads were designed differently, then I would agree that the school may have had a better orientation to consider.

However, as I stated, even with your example, the children are not on a sidewalk right next to traffic. They are separated from traffic by the parked cars - and have a wider sidewalk than is currently there (yes im sure the school could expand the sidewalk, but that doesn't mitigate the other concerns). Plus, that road has fewer lanes of traffic than either Classen or 13th street and has a slower speed limit than either Classen or 13th street.

5mph may not sound too significant, but about 40 percent of pedestrians would die when struck by a vehicle traveling 30 mph at impact and 80 percent at 40 mph (https://one.nhtsa.gov/About-NHTSA/Traffic-Techs/current/ci.Literature-Reviewed-On-Vehicle-Travel-Speeds-And-Pedestrian-Injuries.print). Since it is probably more exponential than linear, roughly 55% would die at 35mph. That is a 37% increase in fatalities by increasing the speed only 5mph - the difference in speed between the location linked and the location on 13th and Classen.