Infill is even coming to the fairground area.

216 new apartment units.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgroundflats1.jpg


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Good use to that bit of land

Some nice bike lane work on General Pershing recently, bet it would be interesting to a subset of people to live right on a bike lane that takes you into the heart of downtown.

If I were to ever move out of downtown, being on a bus route and a bike route/trail would be a priority.

This is good infill. I wish General Pershing would get more love though. Reconstruct in concrete and actually use reinforced bollards to separate the bike lanes instead of the hollow delineators most of which have already been damaged or destroyed.

Speaking of this road is ultimately turns into Main street which needs a complete overhaul. Not just the road surface but they need to remove the parking that fronts the road and build protected bike lanes. It seems like there is even enough room to keep the road at 4 lanes to add a bike lane or you could restripe it as one lane each way with a turning lane. Either way great opportunity to extend a western bike connection to downtown.

Hopefully this might be the beginning of invigorating that area.

This is good infill. I wish General Pershing would get more love though. Reconstruct in concrete and actually use reinforced bollards to separate the bike lanes instead of the hollow delineators most of which have already been damaged or destroyed.

Speaking of this road is ultimately turns into Main street which needs a complete overhaul. Not just the road surface but they need to remove the parking that fronts the road and build protected bike lanes. It seems like there is even enough room to keep the road at 4 lanes to add a bike lane or you could restripe it as one lane each way with a turning lane. Either way great opportunity to extend a western bike connection to downtown.

The bike lane shares with the bus stops. Reinforced bollards would cause damage to vehicles and injury to people. Not a desired use of traffic control items nowadays. I do wish they would reduce the speed limit from Pennsylvania to May down from 40 to 30. Now that it has been changed from a 4 lane to 2 lane, with a bus/bike lane, plus heavy pedestrian usage from the homeless shelter at Villa. Caution is vital, especially at the sweeping curves near Penn. No more trying to be a road racer on those 4 lane sweepers that have no traffic.

The bike lane shares with the bus stops. Reinforced bollards would cause damage to vehicles and injury to people. Not a desired use of traffic control items nowadays. I do wish they would reduce the speed limit from Pennsylvania to May down from 40 to 30. Now that it has been changed from a 4 lane to 2 lane, with a bus/bike lane, plus heavy pedestrian usage from the homeless shelter at Villa. Caution is vital, especially at the sweeping curves near Penn. No more trying to be a road racer on those 4 lane sweepers that have no traffic.
Regarding the speed limit I disagree. The speed limit is fine. Want drivers to go slower? Design the road better slapping a number on a sign won't change anything.

But the bollards, better a car crashes and gets more damage then kill a cyclist. That's what they are there for. Wherever the busses turn in simply don't have bollards there.

Proper bollards are extremely expensive to implement. Our fence at work keeps getting hit by delivery trucks and even by a drunk driver. It's happened like 4 times in the last few years, costing us 3-7K each time just in fence repairs. We've discussed installing bollards if it happens again, but that's 3K+ all by itself, for 4 bollards, and that was a pre-pandemic quote, so probably more now.

That said, it would be cool and maybe a deterrent if they randomly placed bollards that looked very similar to the delineators so that drivers would maybe be more careful not being sure which are real and which are fake. Saw something like that on social.

Looks like bad public housing.

Regarding the speed limit I disagree. The speed limit is fine. Want drivers to go slower? Design the road better slapping a number on a sign won't change anything.

But the bollards, better a car crashes and gets more damage then kill a cyclist. That's what they are there for. Wherever the busses turn in simply don't have bollards there.

That is my point-the road is not currently designed for the traffic risk involved with a 40 mph speed limit. The east stretch of General Pershing has a 1000ft section at 40 mph that has Allied Steel entering using 4 axle vehicles that have 10 ton plus loads; Bill's Pavement using dump trucks; the drywall distributor using 18 wheelers; dedicated bicycle lanes; bus stops; concentrated transient/homeless foot traffic (with carts) due to the new overnight shelter at Villa; plus two 60 degree corners. All on a road designed for industrial and business traffic over 40 years ago.

Seems to me that modern road design reduces fixed impact risk to vehicles. Curb to curb, there is nothing higher than the road surface. Turn signals are suspended by wires. No islands for turn lanes. No turtles separating lanes, etc. The bollards that protect pedestrians on the side of Las Vegas Boulevard at Flamingo aren't used to separate cars from bicycles on General Pershing.

Looks like bad public housing.

I think future public housing is more like it.

That is my point-the road is not currently designed for the traffic risk involved with a 40 mph speed limit. The east stretch of General Pershing has a 1000ft section at 40 mph that has Allied Steel entering using 4 axle vehicles that have 10 ton plus loads; Bill's Pavement using dump trucks; the drywall distributor using 18 wheelers; dedicated bicycle lanes; bus stops; concentrated transient/homeless foot traffic (with carts) due to the new overnight shelter at Villa; plus two 60 degree corners. All on a road designed for industrial and business traffic over 40 years ago.

Seems to me that modern road design reduces fixed impact risk to vehicles. Curb to curb, there is nothing higher than the road surface. Turn signals are suspended by wires. No islands for turn lanes. No turtles separating lanes, etc. The bollards that protect pedestrians on the side of Las Vegas Boulevard at Flamingo aren't used to separate cars from bicycles on General Pershing.
Oh I see what you mean. Yes general Pershing would be good with a 35 MPH speed limit.

Does Acme still own that entire swathe of land between Villa and May along NW 10th? Reallly hoping that area isn't being looked at for a the new prison.

It doesn't go all the way West to May Avenue. It goes from Villa on the East to the gray building that used to be Atlee's Carpet, and is a Marijuana facility now. From 10th Street, it goes South to the railroad tracks on the Villa side and follows the tracks a little farther south as it goes to the West end. I heard there was a sale being negotiated last summer. But, I have no idea if it has moved closer to a done deal.

Looks like bad public housing.

Yes, it's pretty bad.

Yes, it's pretty bad.

That is an understatement.

I can't decide if it reminds me more of a 1980s apartment building. Complete with vinyl siding and windows. Or an Extended Stay America?

Yes, it's pretty bad.

I'm not calling out any individual posters, since I don't know each of your histories on this, but it is a testament to the fickleness of the public that whenever a $350/sq ft luxury condo gets announced downtown the outcry is like "NO ONE CAN AFFORD THAT" while when an actual affordable project is built in a decently "core" location the reaction is "WHAT TRASH THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT."

People clearly want high end at a low price and that just ain't in the cards.

I'm not calling out any individual posters, since I don't know each of your histories on this, but it is a testament to the fickleness of the public that whenever a $350/sq ft luxury condo gets announced downtown the outcry is like "NO ONE CAN AFFORD THAT" while when an actual affordable project is built in a decently "core" location the reaction is "WHAT TRASH THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT."

People clearly want high end at a low price and that just ain't in the cards.
There’s certainly a continuum, but this is ugly.

I really fail to see the issue. It's a decent looking building that has a decent layout. Nothing great or fancy but nice infill and will bring more people to the area.

I really fail to see the issue. It's a decent looking building that has a decent layout. Nothing great or fancy but nice infill and will bring more people to the area.

Completely agree. So many members on here just aren't happy with anything that's not gold plated. Anything is a huge improvement from what's there now.

Completely agree. So many members on here just aren't happy with anything that's not gold plated. Anything is a huge improvement from what's there now.
Given the surface parking 216 units really is a man impressive number. I think the other places in the city to build the residences at ritz Carlton lol

I'm not calling out any individual posters, since I don't know each of your histories on this, but it is a testament to the fickleness of the public that whenever a $350/sq ft luxury condo gets announced downtown the outcry is like "NO ONE CAN AFFORD THAT" while when an actual affordable project is built in a decently "core" location the reaction is "WHAT TRASH THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT."

People clearly want high end at a low price and that just ain't in the cards.

I do believe being affordable and thoughtful, cost effective designs can go side by side (e.g. the Page Woodson Development). I guess that's how great, or maybe just good, architects stand out. To be honest, it's a great development, I'm really happy, but it doesn't look nice, it doesn't build to last, ten years from now, some developers will start thinking how to "renovate" (aka rework) these buildings.

The first thing that bothers me is the use of "Flats" in the name. I always heard the area from May to Penn and 10th to Reno referred to as Mulligan Flats. Not a positive, it was a white trash slum through the 1980s-90s that was improved (and I mean improved in a 100% positive manner with zero downside) by Hispanic immigrants and Habitat for Humanity housing. As a long term neighbor, I read "Flats" as "Slum". Like they are sticking out their tongue and telling me they are building a "Pre-slum".

With 216 apartments on 3 levels and over 420 parking spaces, it appears to me that it will have more asphalt than anything else. With the vinyl siding and overall design, it just looks cheap. I don't see green spaces or water runoff control, like stuff on the north side uses. Just asphalt and cheap buildings. It looks like the early version of those apartments in the 10th to 23rd, along MacArthur-ish area wound up being. It's not that I can easily see, it's that I can't see anything other than theses apartments going into default in 5-10 years and City government supporting a plan to convert them into Section 8 housing. Because it fits so well into the Social Services focus of the area along General Pershing.

And then I have to wonder how this supports that large economic driver in OKC, which is State Fair Park?

The first thing that bothers me is the use of "Flats" in the name. I always heard the area from May to Penn and 10th to Reno referred to as Mulligan Flats. Not a positive, it was a white trash slum through the 1980s-90s that was improved (and I mean improved in a 100% positive manner with zero downside) by Hispanic immigrants and Habitat for Humanity housing. As a long term neighbor, I read "Flats" as "Slum". Like they are sticking out their tongue and telling me they are building a "Pre-slum".

With 216 apartments on 3 levels and over 420 parking spaces, it appears to me that it will have more asphalt than anything else. With the vinyl siding and overall design, it just looks cheap. I don't see green spaces or water runoff control, like stuff on the north side uses. Just asphalt and cheap buildings. It looks like the early version of those apartments in the 10th to 23rd, along MacArthur-ish area wound up being. It's not that I can easily see, it's that I can't see anything other than theses apartments going into default in 5-10 years and City government supporting a plan to convert them into Section 8 housing. Because it fits so well into the Social Services focus of the area along General Pershing.

And then I have to wonder how this supports that large economic driver in OKC, which is State Fair Park?

This is a very thoughtful response.

I wonder if using "Flats" is an attempt to make the term less negative in relation to the area.

I thought that "Flats" were normally considered to be very posh apartments in the UK?

The first thing that bothers me is the use of "Flats" in the name. I always heard the area from May to Penn and 10th to Reno referred to as Mulligan Flats. Not a positive, it was a white trash slum through the 1980s-90s that was improved (and I mean improved in a 100% positive manner with zero downside) by Hispanic immigrants and Habitat for Humanity housing. As a long term neighbor, I read "Flats" as "Slum". Like they are sticking out their tongue and telling me they are building a "Pre-slum".

With 216 apartments on 3 levels and over 420 parking spaces, it appears to me that it will have more asphalt than anything else. With the vinyl siding and overall design, it just looks cheap. I don't see green spaces or water runoff control, like stuff on the north side uses. Just asphalt and cheap buildings. It looks like the early version of those apartments in the 10th to 23rd, along MacArthur-ish area wound up being. It's not that I can easily see, it's that I can't see anything other than theses apartments going into default in 5-10 years and City government supporting a plan to convert them into Section 8 housing. Because it fits so well into the Social Services focus of the area along General Pershing.

And then I have to wonder how this supports that large economic driver in OKC, which is State Fair Park?

My mother who was born in 1935 and attended Central High School used to speak of having friends in the Mulligan Flats area. It was indeed a very poor area and her parents preferred she be home before dark when visiting her friends there. I don't think many OKC residents are familiar with Mulligan Flats. I realize it is a common term but I don't care for the term "white trash" especially where children are concerned.

I thought that "Flats" were normally considered to be very posh apartments in the UK?

it's actually the opposite. in the UK, "apartment" is used to describe and upscale, posh flat. in the UK pretty much any single residence in a building that you rent is a flat.

it's actually the opposite. in the UK, "apartment" is used to describe and upscale, posh flat. in the UK pretty much any single residence in a building that you rent is a flat.

dang, i guess these Tulsa boys were confused then!

https://www.villageflatstulsa.com/

dang, i guess these Tulsa boys were confused then!

https://www.villageflatstulsa.com/

there seems to be a lot of confusion between the two words between the US and the UK.

A side note. Not all of Mulligan Flats was poor. I went to NW Classen with a girl whose family lived there because they owned a septic tank/sewer line cleaning service. They were very successful. They lived in the Flats because the residents and the city gave them no hassle about parking the service trucks in the neighborhood.

Flats used as a name of a geographic location is a different meaning from the word flat for an apartment. It’s a flat low area near water. As for flats vs apartments in the US and UK. The meanings are flipped.

https://www.apartments.com/blog/the-difference-between-apartments-and-flats

Work has started:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgroundflats120422a.jpg

it's actually the opposite. in the UK, "apartment" is used to describe and upscale, posh flat. in the UK pretty much any single residence in a building that you rent is a flat.

This is not "posh". It's definitely on flat land though. LOL.

It's just a run of the mill siding faced apartment complex, and not a particularly large one at that. Nothing to write home about, but it's newer housing in an area that doesn't typically get much of that. So its still a win for the area.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgroundflats020523a.jpg

I had missed what was going in here, interesting to see this development! Thanks for sharing. My drive takes me on General Pershing and it will be very interesting to see how this area will develop. I feel like it's already changed a lot in the past few years!

I will never cease to be impressed with how much available land OKC still has available for infill. It's unreal.

Glad to see more affordable housing units coming online soon.

^

Yes, still tons of empty or highly under-utilized property everywhere in town, including a lot more near this project.

We tend to overlook this because so much infill has taken place but that just goes to show how patchy OKC has been since the 70s. It wasn't that long ago the entire Midtown area was vacant (the 1980s) and areas such as NW 23rd and the Plaza were virtual wastelands.

Takes a very long time and lots of money to undo decades of neglect, especially on such a massive scale. We're already trying to unwind the I-235 canyon which was only opened in 1989.

Even in the Paseo area, there's still so much unused land to the north of the Pump, and also at NW 30th and Hudson where the burned down church used to be. A lot of vacant lots in the neighborhood to the south of Metro Park that's in a weird pseudo-industrial zone, and the same thing in the Riverside neighborhood to the south of the I-40 realignment and west of the Lower Scissortail Park. Heck, the neighborhood in between I-235 and Washington Park is just about completely abandoned, and that's about as close to Downtown as you can get. So we certainly have a ways to go until we run out of spaces for infill.

Even in the Paseo area, there's still so much unused land to the north of the Pump, and also at NW 30th and Hudson where the burned down church used to be. A lot of vacant lots in the neighborhood to the south of Metro Park that's in a weird pseudo-industrial zone, and the same thing in the Riverside neighborhood to the south of the I-40 realignment and west of the Lower Scissortail Park. Heck, the neighborhood in between I-235 and Washington Park is just about completely abandoned, and that's about as close to Downtown as you can get. So we certainly have a ways to go until we run out of spaces for infill.

Isn't that land owned by Marva Ellard? Perhaps I'm mistaken about that.

Whoever has it is dragging their feet. That should be a premium residential / mixed use opportunity. The foot dragging with developers here is extremely frustrating.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgroundflats042323a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgroundflats052423a.jpg

That's gonna' be a whole lot of residents to complain about the late-night weekend noise from the Fairgrounds Speedway. Wait ... Never mind.

The Fairground Flats looks to be close to completion.