So we got caught in Taft letting out yesterday, and what a cluster.... Dozens, if not a couple of hundred cars lined up in the parking lot of the stadium/school, along with cars in all the other lots, all waiting to pick kids up, nobody could get in or out of Walgreens, cop car had a lane blocked off, just insane. Have seen similar to that at other schools, and am wondering - is busing not happening anymore? Or to a much much lesser degree than it used to? We don't have kids, so we have no first-hand experience of schools nowadays.

When I was in K-12, I lived around NW 63rd/May, walked to my local elementary school, got bused to Longfellow 5th grade center over on Lincoln, got bused to Hoover Middle, then got bused for 9th/10th grade to Northeast High (drove for the last two years). Seems like *tons* of kids get dropped off/picked up nowadays, and a few walk, and maybe a few get bused, but wow, what an incredible waste of time for parents to spend picking up/dropping off, and it screws traffic up soooooo badly, just bizarre that's how things are now.

1. The cross town busing to achieve racial integration and balance in schools is no longer done.

2. The big traffic cluster you got caught in lasts about 20 minutes in the morning and same in the afternoon. It is actually a pretty efficient system.

3. Society is a much more scared place than it was when you and I were young. No responsible parent would let their child walk more than a couple blocks to or from school today.

4. I think neighborhood buses still run, but participation is voluntary and many parents prefer to drive their kids.

Fewer and fewer parents will allow their children to walk to and fro school. Ten years ago i lived on the same street as OKC elementary school with a middle school a block away. Parents would start lining up 20-30 minutes before school let; parking along both sides of the street. Oftentimes blocking our driveway and even parking on our drive. With cars parked on both sides, the middle of the road is the only way for cars to get through and yet parents would stop blocking the street for 10-15 minutes waiting for their kids. It is hazardous for kids and people who live the area as emergency vehicles would be seriously delayed.

Back in my day kids were free range and chickens were cooped inside.

Man things have changed. I lived a half mile from grade school. A half dozen kids lived on the same block. We walked to school as a group. And the whole group, boys and girls, went home most days via an old fashioned creek. Mud, rocks, broken glass, old tires, trash, who knew what. Then Jr High was two miles away. Same group rode our bicycles together. High school was a mile and a half away. Same group rode bicycles there until we all turned 16 at different times and started driving. That finally kinda broke the group up./

So we got caught in Taft letting out yesterday, and what a cluster.... Dozens, if not a couple of hundred cars lined up in the parking lot of the stadium/school, along with cars in all the other lots, all waiting to pick kids up, nobody could get in or out of Walgreens, cop car had a lane blocked off, just insane. Have seen similar to that at other schools, and am wondering - is busing not happening anymore? Or to a much much lesser degree than it used to? We don't have kids, so we have no first-hand experience of schools nowadays.

When I was in K-12, I lived around NW 63rd/May, walked to my local elementary school, got bused to Longfellow 5th grade center over on Lincoln, got bused to Hoover Middle, then got bused for 9th/10th grade to Northeast High (drove for the last two years). Seems like *tons* of kids get dropped off/picked up nowadays, and a few walk, and maybe a few get bused, but wow, what an incredible waste of time for parents to spend picking up/dropping off, and it screws traffic up soooooo badly, just bizarre that's how things are now.

Depending on what yrs you went to NEHS, and given that address, we're either classmates or we dated.

One factor is the shortage of school bus drivers.

Depending on what yrs you went to NEHS, and given that address, we're either classmates or we dated.

Probably didn't date - I didn't do that kind of thing in HS, I was a Freak *and* a Geek, lol, went there from 79-83.

These long lines at schools are a problem everywhere not just okc. Schools just aren’t designed to be walked/biked to anymore. It’s simply a design failure. No one is going to let their child walk or bike to school when they have to cross 8 lanes of traffic every block and have to walk in the dirt because sidewalks don’t exist. I can’t even imagine a 12 year old trying to bike down May Ave to get to Taft.

This tweet pretty much sums up the “why don’t young people walk to school anymore” question.

https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/1382709940352135175?s=21

I saw a state along the lines that 50 years ago 70% of children walked/biked to school and that's down to 10-15% today. It's a combination of building society around cars and fearful helicopter parenting (kids are safer today than at any recent time).

These long lines at schools are a problem everywhere not just okc. Schools just aren’t designed to be walked/biked to anymore. It’s simply a design failure. No one is going to let their child walk or bike to school when they have to cross 8 lanes of traffic every block and have to walk in the dirt because sidewalks don’t exist. I can’t even imagine a 12 year old trying to bike down May Ave to get to Taft.

This tweet pretty much sums up the “why don’t young people walk to school anymore” question.

https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/1382709940352135175?s=21

Well, Taft is ancient, so it was actually designed to be walked/biked to, and I'm not sure, but I think May has sidewalks along at least one side of it around that area (we had to cross May at NW 65th to get to my elementary school and we did it just fine, but we only crossed it, didn't have to walk on/beside it). But yeah, I can see that side of it. And there are actually some walking/biking to/from Taft, as well as NW Classen (or whatever it's named now), we're about 5 blocks away from NW Classen, but they're definitely in the minority...

Well, Taft is ancient, so it was actually designed to be walked/biked to, and I'm not sure, but I think May has sidewalks along at least one side of it around that area (we had to cross May at NW 68th to get to my elementary school and we did it just fine, but we only crossed it, didn't have to walk on/beside it). But yeah, I can see that side of it. And there are actually some walking/biking to/from Taft, as well as NW Classen (or whatever it's named now), we're about 5 blocks away from NW Classen, but they're definitely in the minority...
Taft is definitely ancient. It already was when I went there in 72 & 73.

Well, Taft is ancient, so it was actually designed to be walked/biked to, and I'm not sure, but I think May has sidewalks along at least one side of it around that area (we had to cross May at NW 65th to get to my elementary school and we did it just fine, but we only crossed it, didn't have to walk on/beside it). But yeah, I can see that side of it. And there are actually some walking/biking to/from Taft, as well as NW Classen (or whatever it's named now), we're about 5 blocks away from NW Classen, but they're definitely in the minority...

Yes, Taft was originally built to be walked to but turning May and 23rd into expressways ruined that concept years ago. It’s pretty obvious the city had no intention of anyone walking anywhere when they designed the intersection of 23rd and May, much less children walking to school.

I’m sorry may and 23rd are expressways!?!? Wtf lololol I would barely call those high capacity arterial streets let alone an expressway.

I’m sorry may and 23rd are expressways!?!? Wtf lololol I would barely call those high capacity arterial streets let alone an expressway.

I don’t care what semantics you want to use. Calling them high capacity arterial streets doesn’t magically make those streets a safe and comfortable walk for children trying to get to school.

I’m not really trying to argue what is better or worse. I’m just stating that the reason why pick up lines at schools are so crowded and long is because that is the only option the built environment allows.

I don’t care what semantics you want to use. Calling them high capacity arterial streets doesn’t magically make those streets a safe and comfortable walk for children trying to get to school.

I’m not really trying to argue what is better or worse. I’m just stating that the reason why pick up lines at schools are so crowded and long is because that is the only option the built environment allows.
I never mentioned anything about pedestrian or road safety. May Ave is in no way an expressway nor is 23rd. Hell, I’d argue you over NWE being an actual expressway.

Expressways generally have few curb cuts, grade separated interchanges at major arterials, and few traffic signals if any.

I never mentioned anything about pedestrian or road safety. May Ave is in no way an expressway nor is 23rd. Hell, I’d argue you over NWE being an actual expressway.

Expressways generally have few curb cuts, grade separated interchanges at major arterials, and few traffic signals if any.

Right I used misused the term expressway as a general term for high volume high speed high traffic corridor. Probably should have used a different term, what I should have said is that these roads are not friendly for pedestrians and bikes. everyone will arrive to school in a car because that’s how the area is designed.

Come on. Semantics. The point was they're extremely busy streets. Arguing about a term used so often distracts from the main point.

Yes, Taft was originally built to be walked to but turning May and 23rd into expressways ruined that concept years ago. It’s pretty obvious the city had no intention of anyone walking anywhere when they designed the intersection of 23rd and May, much less children walking to school.

Eh, there are way worse intersections to walk through, but yes, I see your point. However, there were actually 2 different crossings with guards going across May, so at least there's that. I can't remember if we had crossing guards on May and 65th way back when, but I think we did, don't think there was a light there until later.

Eh, there are way worse intersections to walk through, but yes, I see your point. However, there were actually 2 different crossings with guards going across May, so at least there's that. I can't remember if we had crossing guards on May and 65th way back when, but I think we did, don't think there was a light there until later.

Yes, there are a lot of way worse intersections to walk through. That’s the whole problem.

Right I used misused the term expressway as a general term for high volume high speed high traffic corridor. Probably should have used a different term, what I should have said is that these roads are not friendly for pedestrians and bikes. everyone will arrive to school in a car because that’s how the area is designed.
Sidewalks could be widened or set back a tad from the road, better intersections markings, raised crosswalks at key points HAWK signals etc. not sure what else can be done in this area. 4 lanes is warranted no road diets should even be considered.

PluPlan, “no road diets should even be considered…” is part of our problem in OKC. Shouldn’t be considered based on what? Actual data? Emerging best practice? Or simply a surrender to - or even love of - car-centric culture?

Right let’s just narrow may Ave a critical N-S road to 1 lane each way. That’s always the solution. Yeah no thankfully we have leaders that understand that reducing lanes on may is nonsense.

Except that data shows many 4 lane streets can become more efficient and safer FOR THE AUTOMOBILES when converted to three lane with center turn lane. Slower average speed yet shorter travel time (due to no backups in travel lane behind left-turning vehicles).

Crashes go down, pedestrian injuries and deaths go down, sidewalks are wider, bicycle infrastructure can be added. Depending on traffic count it can be better for everyone involved, INCLUDING THE CARS.

Don’t mistake inertia for wisdom.

North May Avenue is probably the most significant retail corridor in OKC not on a highway. It's too late in my opinion to put it on a diet. I'm not a lawyer and could easily be wrong, but I would think one could argue (especially a large corporation) that reducing the size of May could result in an inverse condemnation lawsuit against the city, which could cost more than improving the existing infrastructure for pedestrians.

Right let’s just narrow may Ave a critical N-S road to 1 lane each way. That’s always the solution. Yeah no thankfully we have leaders that understand that reducing lanes on may is nonsense.

As long as those leaders are ok with children not being able to walk/bike to school (or anywhere else) then there isn't a problem. I was just answering the original question of why the drop off pick up lines are so long now at schools.

North May Avenue is probably the most significant retail corridor in OKC not on a highway. It's too late in my opinion to put it on a diet. I'm not a lawyer and could easily be wrong, but I would think one could argue (especially a large corporation) that reducing the size of May could result in an inverse condemnation lawsuit against the city, which could cost more than improving the existing infrastructure for pedestrians.
I’m not a lawyer either, but we aren’t talking about all of May. We are talking about roughly one mile, and that mile is hardly retail-intensive. A 2021 traffic count just a block south of 23rd showed ~11.9K daily, down from ~16K daily a few blocks north, in 2018.

Some of this could definitely be pandemic-related, but even 16K is well below the 25K threshold I’ve seen cited whereby a 4-to-3 lane reduction potentially causes congestion issues and a diminishing return.

To be clear, I’m not saying that it’s the correct solution. I’m only saying the reasoning I’m seeing cited here for not even looking into it are purely emotional and/or based on an inertial thought process, and complete refusal to consider emerging schools of thought and cold, hard data.

I’d rather see our city make insightful and reasoned approaches to planning than emotional or outdated ones.

North May Avenue is probably the most significant retail corridor in OKC not on a highway. It's too late in my opinion to put it on a diet. I'm not a lawyer and could easily be wrong, but I would think one could argue (especially a large corporation) that reducing the size of May could result in an inverse condemnation lawsuit against the city, which could cost more than improving the existing infrastructure for pedestrians.

May Avenue is public property.

By the way, we have clear examples of ~1 mile stretches of key arterial streets with fewer than four lanes, with strong commercial performance. I’d venture to say - for example - that Western Ave from 45th to 50th performs better commercially as a two lane than it would as a four lane, and even THAT area’s design doesn’t have the same traffic efficiency as does the configuration I’m talking about.

I think one of the main reasons most people reject this configuration out-of-hand is that we have few good examples of it locally on which to base our experience.

I’m not a lawyer either, but we aren’t talking about all of May. We are talking about roughly one mile, and that mile is hardly retail-intensive. A 2021 traffic count just a block south of 23rd showed ~11.9K daily, down from ~16K daily a few blocks north, in 2018.

Some of this could definitely be pandemic-related, but even 16K is well below the 25K threshold I’ve seen cited whereby a 4-to-3 lane reduction potentially causes congestion issues and a diminishing return.

To be clear, I’m not saying that it’s the correct solution. I’m only saying the reasoning I’m seeing cited here for not even looking into it are purely emotional and/or based on an inertial thought process, and complete refusal to consider emerging schools of thought at cold, hard data.

I’d rather see our city make insightful and reasoned approaches to planning than emotional or outdated ones.

Ahh, I see. My mistake. I am a data person, so I agree that civic leaders should rely on data. Emotions have little place in most decision making processes. I was just talking to someone at work about how much I absolutely hate 63rd and May, so my mind was there.

Ban left turns during rush hour

Ban left turns during rush hour

Don’t really see that making it easier for children to walk or bike to school. Not to mention terribly inconvenient for the people who actually live, work, shop in the area. The only people helped by banning left hand turns during rush hour are the people simply traveling through the area in their way to somewhere else. That is the demographic streets should cater to the least.

First off, I think Taft was built in the 1920s. Both May Avenue and 23rd Street were probably one lane at the time.

I don't think any amount of traffic engineering will get more kids to walk or bike to school. The world is just different now.

PluPan's ban left turns during rush hour isn't so crazy. The right southbound lane is closed between 24th and 25th to allow school cars to easily enter May Avenue southbound. There also is a group of parents who exit farther north on May and then quickly turn left on 24th in order to get to Cleveland elementary, which is 2 or 3 block east of May on 24th. Those parents and people turning into Walgreen's can lock up both lanes very quickly and keep it that way for at least one light cycle.

Keep in mind this entire rush hour "ordeal" lasts 20-30 minutes around 8:30AM and again around 3:00PM.

First off, I think Taft was built in the 1920s. Both May Avenue and 23rd Street were probably one lane at the time.

I don't think any amount of traffic engineering will get more kids to walk or bike to school. The world is just different now.

PluPan's ban left turns during rush hour isn't so crazy. The right southbound lane is closed between 24th and 25th to allow school cars to easily enter May Avenue southbound. There also is a group of parents who exit farther north on May and then quickly turn left on 24th in order to get to Cleveland elementary, which is 2 or 3 block east of May on 24th. Those parents and people turning into Walgreen's can lock up both lanes very quickly and keep it that way for at least one light cycle.

Keep in mind this entire rush hour "ordeal" lasts 20-30 minutes around 8:30AM and again around 3:00PM.

The world is not that different now. If you give children the option to walk safely to school they would do it. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1940 or 2021. The only difference between then and now is that we took that option away from children.

The world is not that different now. If you give children the option to walk safely to school they would do it. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1940 or 2021. The only difference between then and now is that we took that option away from children.

Do you have school age children? Kids will take the ride over walking the vast majority of the time. In my opinion Dob is spot on based on my youngest and her school years from grade 5 through 12.
The world has changed a lot since 1940. Kids don't walk to school and adults don't make their own coffee or brown bag their lunch.

Do you have school age children? Kids will take the ride over walking the vast majority of the time. In my opinion Dob is spot on based on my youngest and her school years from grade 5 through 12.
The world has changed a lot since 1940. Kids don't walk to school and adults don't make their own coffee or brown bag their lunch.

Actually, we still make our own coffee and bring our own lunches (they're frozen instead of a sandwich, chips, and a Twinkie).

Actually, we still make our own coffee and bring our own lunches (they're frozen instead of a sandwich, chips, and a Twinkie).
I never claimed that nobody makes their own coffee anymore. All the grocery stores carry coffee for the home brewer. The number of Starbucks and related places and their rapid growth in the last 30 years does support my position of many people do not home brew in the morning. The fact that you bring your lunch puts you in a catagory that also has shrunk considerably in the last thirty years. The number of fast food/fast casual places would not be in numbers seen thirty years ago. Even you have posted more than once that you don't go out to eat as many posters on this board talk about. And some kids still do walk to school, but as the poster in #33 stated, the world is a different place now.

I never claimed that nobody makes their own coffee anymore. All the grocery stores carry coffee for the home brewer. The number of Starbucks and related places and their rapid growth in the last 30 years does support my position of many people do not home brew in the morning. The fact that you bring your lunch puts you in a catagory that also has shrunk considerably in the last thirty years. The number of fast food/fast casual places would not be in numbers seen thirty years ago. Even you have posted more than once that you don't go out to eat as many posters on this board talk about. And some kids still do walk to school, but as the poster in #33 stated, the world is a different place now.

I absolutely agree with you, I just wanted to put another data point out there. I am amazed at the number of people that spend so much daily on coffee and lunch out, just mind-boggling how many people do that.

Do you have school age children? Kids will take the ride over walking the vast majority of the time. In my opinion Dob is spot on based on my youngest and her school years from grade 5 through 12.
The world has changed a lot since 1940. Kids don't walk to school and adults don't make their own coffee or brown bag their lunch.

Yes, kids don't walk to school anymore because we have made it impossible for them to do so. That's my entire point.

Yes, kids don't walk to school anymore because we have made it impossible for them to do so. That's my entire point.
It is not impossible due to unsafe streets but I am not buying that is the only reason. Children don’t walk to school anymore because it isn’t like the old days. I’d argue the 70s/80s(though I wasn’t alive) was more car centric than it is today and probably had more kids walking to school.

I don't even remember busses at Sequoyah. I went to Taft 71-72 and 72-73. I don't remember many busses the first year there. The second year was the beginning of "integration bussing" so there were lots of busses then.

I went to a rural Oklahoma school district (Washington) in the late 90s and early/mid-2000s. I was the last stop on my route so the ride home took a whole hour. This was fine through elementary school, but once I got into middle school and in toward high school, the ever-increasing amount of homework meant that after spending a hour on the bus, eating dinner, doing homework, and taking a bath I hardly had any time to myself. I was able to talk my mom into picking me up more frequently, until I was only riding the bus about once a week or so. (Since I was the last stop and it was a straight shot from there into school, I did always ride to school, unless there was some reason I had to be there early, like band practice.)

Although my case was extreme, and I don't know how long the average bus ride is for an urban student, I wonder if any parents have made decisions for similar reasons to drive their kids rather than have them ride the bus. Schools issue a lot of homework these days, and especially if the student has sports or other activities that need to be done during the week, riding the bus can burn up a lot of time that could be better spent.