Multi-BILLION? This is unhinged. Pete.

Our TIF programs are well over a billion and there is much more to be spent.

Stop with the insults, please.

Our TIF programs are well over a billion and there is much more to be spent.

Stop with the insults, please.

Is there a site, or do you have a list of existing TIFs in OKC and the amounts? It would be good to see who these billions benefit and what if any results have occurred. Like any investment, it is not in context without evaluating the actual results, both tangible and intangible. It seems like you must have that info or know where it is.

Is there a site, or do you have a list of existing TIFs in OKC and the amounts? It would be good to see who these billions benefit and what if any results have occurred. Like any investment, it is not in context without evaluating the actual results, both tangible and intangible. It seems like you must have that info or know where it is.

There was a thread about it awhile back and I think that it accounts for the majority of the TIF out there and surely some stuff that has aged. I think with soaring values of Real Estate and inflation, we're going to find that some of these are going to end up being more costly than anyone was ever anticipating, especially since our TIF does not have caps on the amount of savings developers can receive.

It's in the Summary Reference Forum:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=39599

It's in the Summary Reference Forum:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=39599
Not really. I’m talking about a spreadsheet of Tifs, recipients, amounts, years in affect, projects funded, and economic and other results.

Seeing only one part is totally out of context when trying to figure out whether they were awarded judiciously. It’s like looking only at someone’s debt and claiming that’s their net worth.

Is there a site, or do you have a list of existing TIFs in OKC and the amounts? It would be good to see who these billions benefit and what if any results have occurred. Like any investment, it is not in context without evaluating the actual results, both tangible and intangible. It seems like you must have that info or know where it is.


This city has a site that details each of the TIF districts and the spending/investments related to them. I’d post it here, but I’m on my phone and my browser is being difficult. A quick glance at the figures in that site confirm Pete is correct and the amount is well over a billion, and likely multi billion (I didn’t do the math on my quick glance).

https://www.okc.gov/departments/economic-development/tax-increment-finance-tif

https://www.okc.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/25406/637707759272370000

As of June 2021 we're right around a billion of expenditures, and it looks like between $75M and $125M of funds available. TIFs 2 & 3 (CBD & Skirvin) and TIF 8 (Devon are presently the 2 largest districts and have expenditures in the multiple hundreds of millions. TIF #2 ends in 2025, TIF #3 ends in 2029, and TIF #8 ends in 2033. The TIF #2 will probably generate another $50M before it's done and TIF #8 will probably generate well in excess of $125M. Wheeler and Core to Shore are just getting kicked off and now that First National is complete, you can imagine that the 2023 assessment which will show up in June 2024 reports will be a huge increase in valuation and therefore tax income. Before that's all said and done in 2041, I'd be shocked if it doesn't produce $250M.

So spent multiple billions, no, but multiple billions are definitely allocated here.

If downtown Memphis can support a 20 story Grand Hyatt, so can Oklahoma City. But Memphis is having some difficulty getting some TIF passed for the project. The local developer stated he will cancel the project if the TIF isn't passed. These articles are interesting and in line to what we have been discussing.

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/money/business/development/2022/07/14/downtown-memphis-one-beale-grand-hyatt-incentives-chance-carlisle/10065258002/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/opinion/2022/07/26/one-beale-grant-hyatt-tax-incentives-city-council-due-diligence-lacking/10140377002/

If downtown Memphis can support a 20 story Grand Hyatt, so can Oklahoma City. But Memphis is having some difficulty getting some TIF passed for the project. The local developer stated he will cancel the project if the TIF isn't passed. These articles are interesting and in line to what we have been discussing.

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/money/business/development/2022/07/14/downtown-memphis-one-beale-grand-hyatt-incentives-chance-carlisle/10065258002/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/opinion/2022/07/26/one-beale-grant-hyatt-tax-incentives-city-council-due-diligence-lacking/10140377002/

+1

and the Dream Hotels development.

Simply put, TIF was designed, not to benefit developers or some other group, but instead to encourage desired but challenged projects that have benefit to the TIF district and the wider community.

So if, 30 years after using TIF to encourage downtown development this project is still a challenge, was the decision at that time to use government to manipulate the downtown development market justified? At the time, it was argued that, by this time, it would no longer be needed because those developments receiving the competitive assist would elevate the market to the point where such assistance would no longer be needed. Now that we're at the end of that term, maybe it's time to see if it worked. I'm just saying that if that if this project needs it then, obviously, the initial arguments for TIF were erroneous.

Also, if the initial term of the TIFs awarded didn't equate to billions of dollars saved in risk mitigation over 30 years by those developers (collectively) that received them, why were they needed in the first place? That would mean that the potential ROI against risk was justified at the time without the government assistance.

Why continue the cycle of government granting advantages to investors who have the capital to begin with?

And, if it is prudent to continue that cycle, is there an actual end game and what is it?

I agree with you that TIF was not designed to benefit developers or "some other group", but is that how it is functioning today and how would giving TIF to this project be within the initial spirit of TIF, as you see it?

it'd be interesting once these TIFs expire, the influx of $$ into the Oklahoma City Public Schools and County venues - should be a HUGE winfall.

it'd be interesting once these TIFs expire, the influx of $$ into the Oklahoma City Public Schools and County venues - should be a HUGE winfall.

I wouldnt get your hopes up too much. When these TIFs expire and property owners dont get their ad valorem taxes returned back to them, they will protest property valuations and get them lowered to a much lower amount. Yes, schools will get some more money when TIFs expire but not as much as you'd think after owners protest valuations at county assessor offices. This has played out on Oklahoma wind farms and will play out on Devon tower as well. That tif was like $750 million? When that TIF expires you can be sure Devon will protest and get the value of their tower lowered to nothing near $750 million.

it'd be interesting once these TIFs expire, the influx of $$ into the Oklahoma City Public Schools and County venues - should be a HUGE winfall.

This has been my big beef with TIF this whole time, esp with Okana and Devon. Schools for the most part are funded by property taxes. That's tons of money not going to our schools and other services. Chickasaws esp don't need any money.

it'd be interesting once these TIFs expire, the influx of $$ into the Oklahoma City Public Schools and County venues - should be a HUGE winfall.

Well, after all, that is what we were promised.

Let's see if it happens, right?

I wouldnt get your hopes up too much. When these TIFs expire and property owners dont get their ad valorem taxes returned back to them, they will protest property valuations and get them lowered to a much lower amount. Yes, schools will get some more money when TIFs expire but not as much as you'd think after owners protest valuations at county assessor offices. This has played out on Oklahoma wind farms and will play out on Devon tower as well. That tif was like $750 million? When that TIF expires you can be sure Devon will protest and get the value of their tower lowered to nothing near $750 million.

Property owners are already paying the full value of their taxes. It's just that the money goes in a separate fund owned and managed by Oklahoma City that tends to get spent on capital projects rather than to Oklahoma County who would route those funds to budget line items. No property owners who have received TIF will see an increase on their property taxes at the end of the TIF periods.

^I should say that while there may have been instances where abatement has occurred, though that would be the very rare exception, not the rule. In fact, in order to provide money up front in many instances the TIFs have taken out loans (accruing millions of dollars of interest expense in the process) in order to be able to fund projects up front. The reality is most developers do want the subsidy up front.

Even in the case of abatement, the city could still set a cap. So if an improved property generates $8M to $10M of property tax in excess of the base assessed value at the beginning of the TIF, the city can still say we're capping the abatement at $2M.

Looks like this is moving forward and could open by 2024:


Bricktown is building on the ongoing evolution of Oklahoma City with the addition of a $275 million project that will be erected by 2024.

The Dream Hotel Group, known for their luxurious lodging from New York to Nashville, South Beach, and even Bangkok, has now set its sights on Oklahoma City. The group will be collaborating with California-based Matteson Capital LLC on a large mixed-use destination.

The project will incorporate two towering hotel concepts, and a residential tower. Bringing a total of nearly 400 additional hotel rooms to Oklahoma City’s entertainment district, the Dream Hotel and Unscripted Hotel will serve as the main attractions of the project.

The Dream Hotel will be located on the corner of East Reno Street and Oklahoma Avenue and include 220 guest rooms and suites, five dining and nightlife options, a rooftop pool deck and bar, state-of-the-art health and wellness facilities, and 11,000 square feet of flexible meeting and event space throughout its 14 floors.

The Unscripted Hotel will join the Dream Hotel at 14 stories in the sky, incorporating 174 guest rooms, two upscale food and beverage spots, and a lower-level rooftop bar.

The residential tower may include air purification and air quality monitoring systems, as well as water filtration systems that will supply filtered water throughout the property. Public spaces will incorporate a circadian lighting system designed to support the natural 24-hour cycle of humans, boosting energy throughout the day, and helping people prepare for rest in the evenings.

The project pulls in local partners of Matteson Capital; Brad Hogan, and Randy Hogan, recognized for their role in developing the original Lower Bricktown District.

“We are grateful for Dream Hotel Group and Matteson Capital’s commitment to bringing this project to life in downtown Oklahoma City,” the Hogan’s firm said.

“This [project] will draw locals, Oklahomans, and out of town guests to new culinary experiences, live entertainment, and one-of-a-kind hospitality that’s unlike anything else in the area.”

Dream Hotel Group’s Vice President of Development, Christian Glauser Benz, said the group began to take notice of Oklahoma City, following the success of their Nashville location. Similar in size, the group saw potential in these midsize cities that could support this type of product.

The $275 million project will join Bricktown’s current ballpark, canal, and nightlife scene. Paycom Arena, home to the Oklahoma City Thunder, will also be within walking distance of the project. The Oklahoma City Convention Center, Scissortail Park, Myriad Botanical Gardens, Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum, and more are a quick commute away, with a streetcar system connecting the Bricktown location with activities as far as Midtown.

To its east, the Boathouse District can be reached in minutes, providing a variety of outdoor activities.

Overall, the district’s diversity in businesses and attractions makes for the perfect platform for a Dream-like experience.

- https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/development/new-bricktown-development-will-provide-a-dream-like-experience/?back=super_blog

I hope so. But if 2024 is their timeline, they need to step it up. I'm also nervous that better renderings haven't been released

Looks like Velocity is reaching for stories, lol. Their article gives us nothing new. This is information we already knew a year ago. Still puzzled on why no firm renderings have been released, surely they have them done by now.

Looks like Velocity is reaching for stories, lol. Their article gives us nothing new. This is information we already knew a year ago. Still puzzled on why no firm renderings have been released, surely they have them done by now.

it is just a pr site for the chamber .

I give it 0% possibility this opens in 2024 if properties are over 6 stories.

it is just a pr site for the chamber .

I guess it must be good news on some level if essentially a public relations site for the chamber is reporting on it like that, right? I’m not familiar with Velocity at all, so I’m just thinking out loud.

I give it 0% possibility this opens in 2024 if properties are over 6 stories.

Same. As it is currently reported, if any part of this is open by 2024, I’ll personally cover the total investment and building cost for the entirety of the development, then match it to donate back to both groups.

Any updates?

I’ll give you one Dead

It's not dead, just moving slowly as all big projects do.

I've been told it's still moving forward.

And now that we are in holiday season, I don't expect any solid updates on this project, until next year, maybe around Spring.

I’ll give you one Dead

Do you have any direct knowledge or is this just being negative?

Do you have any direct knowledge or is this just being negative?

Do you really have to ask with this particular poster?

Do you really have to ask with this particular poster?

My thoughts, exactly!

Do you have any direct knowledge or is this just being negative?

Just being negative but with good reason. I’ve been jaded by promises and letdowns like a jilted lover.

Just being negative but with good reason. I’ve been jaded by promises and letdowns like a jilted lover.

I always feel like it is people's own expectation and lack of knowledge of process that usually leads them to letdowns . These projects, as are most development projects, are not like buying or building a house and that's usually the only experience most people have directly. There seems to be an expectation here that if they see something about something then it is of course going to become a reality. There are always a lot of moving parts.

For what its worth, a similar type of development by the Dream Hotel Group was announced for San Antonio back in September 2020, and has yet to break ground.

I read that Hyatt has announced they are buying Dream Hotels.

And Unscripted Hotels, the other hotel in this development.

That shouldn't have any effect on future projects.

The developers merely license the use of hotel flags and then follow their guidelines.

I read that Hyatt has announced they are buying Dream Hotels.
There's in article about it in today's Dallas Morning News.

I've also been told it is still moving forward from a source associated with the contractor. Like Pete said projects this size take time in design and preconstruction.

I've also been told it is still moving forward from a source associated with the contractor. Like Pete said projects this size take time in design and preconstruction.

Any idea when we'll see the plans?

There are quite a few Texas towers that were proposed 3 years ago, and there has been no movement at all. And those aren't considered dead, either. Tall residential is rare in Oklahoma, so the barriers to entry are higher than in places where it is more common.

The surest sign yet that this project is still proceeding behind the scenes is that OCURA has submitted plans to create a new TIF district that would generate a budgeted $215 million in public assistance.

The money raised and spent will likely be significantly higher as TIF's run 25 years and are often double the amount originally budgeted.

Some of that may go towards developing what is now a public surface lot south of Oklahoma Ranch.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tif021423c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tif021423cc.jpg

I am ok with this if some of that goes towards developing that parking lot near Oklahoma Ranch. If not, then that is a lot of money for 2 hotels and a condo tower.

A nice development on that surface lot would be great to see.

I am ok with this if some of that goes towards developing that parking lot near Oklahoma Ranch. If not, then that is a lot of money for 2 hotels and a condo tower.

Exactly. My jaw dropped when I saw the $215MM, but if it has to do with redevelopment of that lot west of the ball park, I am all for it. I would guess a parking garage would be part of it commercial development surrounding.

A nice development on that surface lot would be great to see.

I remember looking at a development plan for that lot when I worked for Benham back in 2007. I can't remember the group proposing it though.

I remember looking at a development plan for that lot when I worked for Benham back in 2007. I can't remember the group proposing it though.

It was Bob Funk and Scott Pruitt, then-owners of the Redhawks.

They wanted to buy both parking lots on either side of Joe Carter Avenue. In the end, they pulled out when the city determined there would have to be an open RFP for those properties. By all appearances, they were trying to get that land for a lot less than it was worth and then quit pursuing it when they realized they would have to pay fair market price.

Why is the ballpark lot highlighted? Is it possible hotels/developments are being planned for the far east portion of the lot much like hotels along Sheridan?

Why is the ballpark lot highlighted? Is it possible hotels/developments are being planned for the far east portion of the lot much like hotels along Sheridan?

I would think it would be due to possible development of the parking lots on either side of Joe Carter.

Oklahoman reported this morning that the proposed new TIF I posted about would indeed be used for the project on the UHaul lot.

There will still be the Dream Hotel but plans have changed from 215 rooms to 315 and the 2nd hotel tower (Unscripted) has been dropped.

Instead, there will be three apartment towers built on top of an apartment garage, although the 3rd wouldn't start until Dream and the first two apartment structures are completed.

All would be between 24 and 26 stories. Previously, the buildings were 19 and 22 levels.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/02/21/okc-lower-bricktown-oklahoma-city-development-high-rise-apartments-new-tif-district-plans-future/69921817007/

Do you know what the 4th tower will be?

Do you know what the 4th tower will be?

I corrected my post above. 3 apartment towers, 1 Dream Hotel.

I'm sure they had to go heavy on apartments because the deal with Omni prohibits TIF from being used for a downtown hotel.

I'm sure they had to go heavy on apartments because the deal with Omni prohibits TIF from being used for a downtown hotel.

Between that and an increased need for more residential downtown so I am sure this is a win win for all involved.

BTW, that article also quotes Randy Hogan as saying this project is a "moonshot" so take all this with a grain of salt.

Do we know how long the TIF agreement with the Omni lasts?

Do we know how long the TIF agreement with the Omni lasts?

I believe it is 25 years.

I guess this a bittersweet article. Now we have a bigger project, but still have to wait at least a year before any dirt starts turning. Also, the renderings we did have will probably drastically change.

Approving the TIF will seal the deal, that will be the key to pulling this off. Apartments are in high demand, they must had good interest in the apartment tower to go from 1 to 3. Smart on their part to flip it, so they can get financed for a bulk of the project.

I'm actually glad to see it apartment-heavy. Hotels are nice but permanent residents bring an entirely different need for goods and services. Now if we could just get more condos, townhomes, and other for-sale units to help drive prices down.

I can't read the Oklahoman article, but if nothing else taller towers and swapping hotel for permanent residents seems like a good thing to me. TBD on how any renderings change especially at the street level.

This would be a ton of residential units near Bricktown and that would help to bring more life and businesses to the canal, which is sorely needed.

I'd like to see the upper floors of some of those canal buildings converted to apartments.