^^^^^^^^^^
The gap can also be that - in general - it is astronomically more expensive to develop in an urban area than elsewhere, ESPECIALLY when elements such as legacy infrastructure, environmental contamination and urban design requirements (among many other factors) come into play.

The fact of the matter is that TIF was designed to help level the playing field and make urban development (and redevelopment) easier, in an effort to stem the outgoing tide of cheap sprawl that is the REAL (and crippling) historic misuse of public monies.

The gap CAN be that, but it isn't always.

Many examples where there were no particular challenges regarding infrastructure. And most contamination issues are handled through a separate Brownfields grant.

All I'm saying is that money can be spent any way the developer chooses once they get the award and it doesn't have to go to infrastructure.

They should have released hard designs/renderings by now. All we have is a drawing. The project was announced back in June of last year, so we are close to a year. So yea, I am getting worried.

They should have released hard designs/renderings by now. All we have is a drawing. The project was announced back in June of last year, so we are close to a year. So yea, I am getting worried.
I 2!nd this. Going vertical in OKC is less likely than other cities. I would say the delays in this have been very lengthy. I give this a 30/70 shot now.

I give this a 30/70 shot now.

You have a lot more faith than I do.

It seems a lot of announced projects have not shown much visual progress lately--this, OKANA, BarK, Alley's End, Boulevard Place, Strawberry Fields, Bancfirst Tower, to name a few (okay that last one I only see from the northeast, so I may be missing the other side)--so it is hard to tell what is something falling through and what is something working its way through planning or through recent events of expensive building materials or other delays that appear to have become the norm as of late...at least April gives us First National to look forward to.

I'm wondering if the inflation problem we're having (and will be having for the foreseeable future) is having an effect on this and a lot of other projects.

It seems a lot of announced projects have not shown much visual progress lately--this, OKANA, BarK, Alley's End, Boulevard Place, Strawberry Fields, Bancfirst Tower, to name a few (okay that last one I only see from the northeast, so I may be missing the other side)--so it is hard to tell what is something falling through and what is something working its way through planning or through recent events of expensive building materials or other delays that appear to have become the norm as of late...at least April gives us First National to look forward to.

OKANA, BarK and BancFirst are well under construction and BancFirst is rapidly nearing completion of a multi-year renovation. Oak has started as well and 700 West has almost topped out.

Boulevard Place is set to start in May. Hopefully, Alley's End will start sometime this year. Who knows about Strawberry Fields but there has been skepticism about that project from the very beginning.

Regarding the Dream Hotel project, by all indications they are working behind the scenes to get everything ready to go; this has been posted several times.

In the meantime, we have an incredible renovation at First National that is the envy of the U.S. pretty much finishing this month with a bunch of restaurants and bars to follow. The BancFirst makeover was on a huge scale and it's turning out beautifully. The massive Innovation Plaza project has just started.

There are hundreds of other projects finishing and starting, with new ones every day and plenty more in the pipeline.


For those complaining things aren't happening fast enough, I'd suggest this forum isn't for you. We get advanced information and share it, but that often means people who read here know about things way before they actually start construction. If you just want to know when things have already occurred, you'd be better off sticking to the Oklahoman or watching local TV news.

I will *not* allow this forum to become like social media where angry soreheads just complain about everything. There are a thousand things happening in OKC -- some of them very large scale -- and if you want to act entitled and somehow cheated if things don't happen on your own desired personal timeline that has no connection to reality, go somewhere else.

(This was not aimed at anyone in particular, it's the general tone and I'm putting people on notice it will not be allowed here).

My question about this project would be, why this location?

This is a less than prime lot. It has weird access issues and while it is close to attractions, it's not next to them. It's next to a U-Haul storage facility and freight rail lines.

So, why spend the money to build very high end hotels in a less than prime location when prime locations are available? It makes it seem this is a money sensitive project, which does not scream high end hotels.

Put this project between Scissortail Park and Myriad Gardens on the trolley line across the street from arena and conventions center and it makes perfect sense. There are other surface lot sites in Bricktown that are better as well. On the site it's proposed for now? Not the same.

Because it's a great location and the developer already owns the land.

The developers that own the land between Scissorial and the Myriad Gardens will do their own development.

I checked on this project last week and was told it is still moving forward.

I checked on this project last week and was told it is still moving forward.

That's good news!

It is definitely still moving forward. I speak with people involved in this project regularly, and they are still hard at work. Also, the firm overseeing the development has leased office space downtown.

Ten minutes ago I was reading a story on Vital Vegas about the site work on the Las Vegas Dream Hotels site. Appears they have many things going on.

For the record, Dream Hotels did do a major press release on OKC back in November and there were many hospitality and real estate sites that picked it up:

https://www.greenlodgingnews.com/the-dream-project-includes-two-hotels-residential-tower/
https://www.hotelmanagement.net/development/dream-hotel-group-open-oklahoma-city-dual-brand
https://www.hospitalitynet.org/news/4107425.html
https://tophotel.news/dream-and-unscripted-to-anchor-landmark-oklahoma-city-development/
https://lodgingmagazine.com/dream-hotel-group-plans-openings-for-two-oklahoma-city-hotels/
https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Dream-Hotel-Group-plans-for-two-Oklahoma-City-hotels
https://hospitalitydesign.com/news/boutique-lifestyle/dream-hotel-group-to-expand-to-oklahoma-city/

Direct quote in Dallas Morning News (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2022/05/23/high-rise-frisco-development-will-start-with-luxury-dream-hotel/) less than a month ago from Jay Stein, the CEO of the Dream Hotel Group:


“We have signed recently in Memphis, San Antonio, Atlanta, Cleveland and Oklahoma City,” Stein said. “We have about five different projects going on in Mexico in various stages of development.”

There are plenty of other mentions of OKC in other reporting out there on the Frisco and other projects.

Now, I would never guarantee that a project is going to happen until I see steel coming out of the ground, but the folks doubting this development are doing so at their own peril. It is WITHOUT QUESTION still on the move, even if that conflicts with your own negative perspectives.

From my own perspective I believe this project - while incredibly ambitious - has a great chance of coming to fruition, if for no reason other than based on the local financial resources behind it. This isn’t a lumberyard or Cotton Exchange style investment pitch; these folks ALREADY HAVE the capital (and capital access) to do whatever they want to do. That said, it will of course have to pencil, like any investment.

Dream Hotel's Architects Cube 3 also list OKC as a future development referencing OKC Talk. https://www.cube3.com/

Dream Hotel's Architects Cube 3 also list OKC as a future development referencing OKC Talk. https://www.cube3.com/

Direct link: Dream Oklahoma City (https://www.cube3.com/portfolio_page/dream-bourbon-hotel-2/)

Direct link: Dream Oklahoma City (https://www.cube3.com/portfolio_page/dream-bourbon-hotel-2/)

I may appear to be a skeptic on this topic, but I don't see how a 2024 completion date is viable with the current development table. I think a more realistic completion date would have to be 2026.

I've heard through a credible source that Hensel Phelps has started assembling a construction management team for this project. That's all the information I could accumulate at the time, but progress!

I've heard through a credible source that Hensel Phelps has started assembling a construction management team for this project. That's all the information I could accumulate at the time, but progress!

Thanks for the info.

Hensel Phelps was named as the contractor in the Dream press release and they have a local office on Broadway Extension but don't know how long it's been there.

Maybe it's just me but anyone else find it odd they are nearing a point for construction to start and we still don't have any official renderings?

I believe those larger construction firms start this process very on. Especially when they don't have a huge local presence and will have to bring people in from out of state.

Maybe it's just me but anyone else find it odd they are nearing a point for construction to start and we still don't have any official renderings?

Yes, they are probably done. But they still have yet to submit any documents to the City Council for final approval. That has to be done before building permits are filed. It was my understanding when they presented to the Planning Commission a year ago, that the PC diverted to City Council on final approval on some of the design issues.

And not sure if they are wanting TIF?

Maybe it's just me but anyone else find it odd they are nearing a point for construction to start and we still don't have any official renderings?

Construction management team isn't quite the same thing as a construction team, this might just be pre-work that will take months yet before ground is broken.

Yes, they are probably done. But they still have yet to submit any documents to the City Council for final approval. That has to be done before building permits are filed. It was my understanding when they presented to the Planning Commission a year ago, that the PC diverted to City Council on final approval on some of the design issues.

And not sure if they are wanting TIF?

i don't believe they can get TIF for the hotel

Yes, they are probably done. But they still have yet to submit any documents to the City Council for final approval. That has to be done before building permits are filed. It was my understanding when they presented to the Planning Commission a year ago, that the PC diverted to City Council on final approval on some of the design issues.

And not sure if they are wanting TIF?

This would have to go through design review, then city council. They also have to file for building permits and go through that process to get approved.

And hotels near downtown aren't eligible for TIF due to the city's agreement with the Omni.

The next thing we'll probably see is the final design submitted for approval.

i don't believe they can get TIF for the hotel

True, but they probably could for the garage + pond courtyard + residential tower. I believe the garage will be a substructure under the entire development (noice if true), which (correct me if Im wrong Pete) would qualify them for TIF despite the two add'l hotel towers.

Will be interesting to see how this will play out. I wonder if the city could get a renegotiation with OMNI to partner on part of the COX site in exchange for a revision of their agreement - hasn't the OKC Omni vastly exceeded expectations which were the reason for the restrictive TIF in the first place?

I agree, the whole hotel TIF ban for other hotels is not really good. Especially when we need larger hotels to build in the area. Especially if we need to attract an All-Star game, or other major sporting events, etc.

If TIFs are out, then look at other incentives or subsidies. TIFs aren't the only option available.

If TIFs are out, then look at other incentives or subsidies. TIFs aren't the only option available.

What other incentives and subsidies?

They know some dude who likes to hide behind the bushes for fun. He has their tiff.

G. Rainey Williams has a plan for a fabulous idea.

What other incentives and subsidies?

I guess property tax rebates or just flat-out deferrals (same church, different pew). If OKC has limited its options to solely TIFs, then they are batting with a broken bat.

TIF is property tax rebates and deferrals.

TIF is property tax rebates and deferrals.

But those are based on sales tax generated, right?

I think direct rebates would be a good idea. Just seems weird that TIfs are the only thing available. Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

But those are based on sales tax generated, right?

I think direct rebates would be a good idea. Just seems weird that TIfs are the only thing available. Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

No, TIF is all based on property tax.

We sold our souls to the Omni in many ways.

Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

what? in what way?

what? in what way?

Because now they can't offer anything to incentivize subsidize further hotel development downtown. Anytime you tie your own damn hands behind your back, you have screwed yourself.

^ I could be mistaken but I don't think not having incentives stopped the Renaissance or the Dreams project from moving forward

PLENTY of hotel development has already happened downtown without significant subsidy. Overbuild is also a legitimate concern in the hotel industry. It’s a delicate ecosystem. Room rates should remain reasonably high to maintain room tax and other benefits that come from being an in-demand market.

I’m typically a stout defender of BID usage when I’m posting in this forum, but I think the deal struck to gain a blockable number of what would otherwise be market-surplus rooms in the Omni was very appropriate in order to properly ensure success of the convention center.

If the actual market demand is there, new hotels will follow. They won’t need TIF. Also, by not directing it to new hotels - that don’t require TIF but would just LIKE to have it - said TIF could be better directed at other district-benefitting projects.

Finally, TIF can still be used toward the Dream project, provided the projected housing makes the final cut.

Sorry for derailing. Didn't intend for that. I was simply saying that it could end up killing a project by them being so betrothed to the Omni. Maybe, and hopefully, not this one, as hotel and housing as re needed, especially with a new arena coming in.

But with how long it has been since any in-depth updates from the developers, who honestly knows where this one stands.

We got a new full service hotel in the Renaissance without TIF. Not sure why everything has to have a TIF to happen. Sometimes it may be necessary, but sometimes its an unnecessary giveaway and not letting the free market do its thing.

Its not a good thing when some land owner puts a big price on their land and then tells prospective buyers and developers "sure its a high asking price but you can go to the city and get TIF money."

We got a new full service hotel in the Renaissance without TIF. Not sure why everything has to have a TIF to happen. Sometimes it may be necessary, but sometimes its an unnecessary giveaway and not letting the free market do its thing.

Its not a good thing when some land owner puts a big price on their land and then tells prospective buyers and developers "sure its a high asking price but you can go to the city and get TIF money."

You make good points, I think it has mostly to do with the overall scale of the development. The Renaissance was done beautifully but at the end of the day, it's a 182 +/- room hotel. The proposed Dream/Unscripted/Condo tower is almost double in hotel rooms and has an additional condo tower. Capital required and risk is much higher for the Dream development.

You make good points, I think it has mostly to do with the overall scale of the development. The Renaissance was done beautifully but at the end of the day, it's a 182 +/- room hotel. The proposed Dream/Unscripted/Condo tower is almost double in hotel rooms and has an additional condo tower. Capital required and risk is much higher for the Dream development.
And yet, if any portion of this project is scaled back it is most likely to be the housing component. That should tell you all you need to know about which types of projects actually NEED TIF, and which do not.

And yet, if any portion of this project is scaled back it is most likely to be the housing component. That should tell you all you need to know about which types of projects actually NEED TIF, and which do not.

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?

Like Wheeler District?

The point I was trying to make was that no TIF hinders large hotel development in the immediate area. Yes we possibly have Dream, and the new Renaissance is nice.

But I was referring to larger 4-5 star hotels, with 500+ rooms like the Omni. It will be very hard to get a large signature brand like JW Marriot, Grand Hyatt, W Hotels, or dare I say Ritz, without some type of TIF incentive or public subsidy.

Like Wheeler District?

Can't unring that bell and it's very different from what is being proposed here.

What's the worst case? The hotels get built without the condos? That would not be a huge loss.

BTW, Hogan & Co. already got a sweetheart deal from the city on this property to begin with.

For the record, I don't support the use of public funds to subsidize the sale of of expensive private homes in either case.

The point I was trying to make was that no TIF hinders large hotel development in the immediate area.

In theory, TIF is used in the hopes that the TIF assisted development will improve the market overall. In a sense, if TIF has to be used to get new developments in perpetuity, then they aren't working.

In theory, TIF is used in the hopes that the TIF assisted development will improve the market overall. In a sense, if TIF has to be used to get new developments in perpetuity, then they aren't working.

Yep.

TIF was conceived as a way to jump-start development in blighted areas. The Oklahoma statute specifically contains that wording.

It's been bastardized into a multi-billion dollar giveaway that has already spanned decades and with agreements that stretch out decades into the future, with the numbers only increasing.

I am NOT against all public subsidies. But given the enormous sums involved, people need to have a better understanding of how all this works and how it can work against those who are investing heavily in our community and then have to directly compete against those subsidized businesses.

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?

I'm going to be the odd man out and say I actually do. The more rich people who live in the heart of the city the better the amenities will continue to develop there not just for them but for everyone else who spends time in downtown and Bricktown. And also, better in Bricktown than more of the far out countryside getting converted from farms to housing where we still subsidize the housing just with a forever commitment to roads and utilities.

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?
The short answer - assuming you are talking only about TIF when you say "public funds" - is absolutely. But I fundamentally disagree with the inflammatory phrasing of the question.

The longer answer is that TIF is specifically designed to encourage development that benefits the TIF district, and by extension, the rest of the community. It is intended to be used when a quality, desired and beneficial development wouldn't happen but for the incentive. What is abundantly clear at this point is that high rise condominium development is not currently happening in OKC, despite a boom in such development nationwide over the past couple of decades. It is a missing component, and a new, upscale residential high rise will hopefully help prove the concept and encourage even more of the same.

What are the other benefits? Well, among other things downtown desperately needs more rooftops in desirable demographics to have any chance at the things people who post here covet, such as a CVS or Walgreens, or perhaps even a downtown grocery or other retail.

Simply put, TIF was designed, not to benefit developers or some other group, but instead to encourage desired but challenged projects that have benefit to the TIF district and the wider community. Sometimes it requires a deeper dive to understand what those benefits might be. This is a very nuanced topic, and this should be acknowledged when discussing it.

Simply put, TIF was designed, not to benefit developers or some other group, but instead to encourage desired but challenged projects that have benefit to the TIF district and the wider community. Sometimes it requires a deeper dive to understand what those benefits might be. This is a very nuanced topic, and this should be acknowledged when discussing it.

As you well know, I have personally spent months researching and documenting TIF. Absolutely nobody in OKC has done a 'deeper dive'.

We don't need to get into this yet again on this thread, but you're the one that raised a specific point about the housing component on this project.

What is abundantly clear at this point is that high rise condominium development is not currently happening in OKC, despite a boom in such development nationwide over the past couple of decades. It is a missing component, and a new, upscale residential high rise will hopefully help prove the concept and encourage even more of the same.


It could be that most oklahoma city people arent big fans of condos. We do have some existing condo buildings and any realtor will tell you those are tougher to sell and always sell cheaper than single family houses. Look at the Bower, built as condos and couldnt sell them. Why would we subsidize something that simply isnt that desired in this market?

I assume the few condos built in lower Bricktown are still valuable properties.

Could OCURA acquiring land and then putting out an RFP for development on that land be considered sort of a back door incentive?

Could OCURA acquiring land and then putting out an RFP for development on that land be considered sort of a back door incentive?

Yes, very much so.

It's exactly what happened with this property when it ended up in the hands of the current owner.

Yep.

TIF was conceived as a way to jump-start development in blighted areas. The Oklahoma statute specifically contains that wording.

It's been bastardized into a multi-billion dollar giveaway that has already spanned decades and with agreements that stretch out decades into the future, with the numbers only increasing.

I am NOT against all public subsidies. But given the enormous sums involved, people need to have a better understanding of how all this works and how it can work against those who are investing heavily in our community and then have to directly compete against those subsidized businesses.
Multi-BILLION? This is unhinged. Pete.