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BoulderSooner
08-02-2023, 01:06 PM
"We" elect people who hire "them," so if "we" don't like it, "we" could do a better job electing people who didn't approve every single TIF application that came across their desk.

if every TIF ask was approved OU would have had an OGE hq building with apt towers just west of the Myriad gardens ..

Pete
08-02-2023, 01:19 PM
if every TIF ask was approved OU would have had an OGE hq building with apt towers just west of the Myriad gardens ..

There was never any sort of formal vote on the TIF for that project.

They withdrew and that was the end of it.

TheTravellers
08-02-2023, 01:58 PM
"We" elect people who hire "them," so if "we" don't like it, "we" could do a better job electing people who didn't approve every single TIF application that came across their desk.

Who really hires Cathy O'Connor, and her ilk that are constantly shoveling TIF requests through? Is it really the city council, because that's all that "we" elect, and Cooper's my councilperson and I believe he doesn't rubber-stamp every TIF request (along with JoBeth Hamon, I believe).

Shortsyeararound
08-02-2023, 02:37 PM
If the FNC is 2/3 rented at $3900/ave and these when built will cost around the same, where are all these renters going to come from? Salaries are not increasing that much and even if you have roommates splitting the cost with just rent alone is 2000k per person. We pay 1400 to rent a 4bd/2bth/3car home in a solid neighborhood. 4000k for an apt in OKC seems a little off the rails when comparing to other larger cities. Don’t get me wrong, I love this development, I just worry that it will never fill up.

chssooner
08-02-2023, 02:53 PM
If the FNC is 2/3 rented at $3900/ave and these when built will cost around the same, where are all these renters going to come from? Salaries are not increasing that much and even if you have roommates splitting the cost with just rent alone is 2000k per person. We pay 1400 to rent a 4bd/2bth/3car home in a solid neighborhood. 4000k for an apt in OKC seems a little off the rails when comparing to other larger cities. Don’t get me wrong, I love this development, I just worry that it will never fill up.

There are a lot more wealthy people in OKC than you realize. Just saying. See all the engineering jobs near or at Tinker. They all pay very well. And a lot live downtown.

Plutonic Panda
08-02-2023, 03:19 PM
JR Article: https://journalrecord.com/2023/08/01/details-emerge-on-736m-mixed-use-development-in-downtown-okc/?utm_term=Details%20emerge%20on%20%24736M%20mixed-use%20development&utm_campaign=Court%20ruling%20allows%20%245B%20tur npike%20expansion%20plan%20to%20move%20forward&utm_content=Editorial&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=OKC&email=plutonicpanda@gmail.com

onthestrip
08-02-2023, 03:28 PM
A $200MM TIF package. Jeez.. I can't remember reading about a development in OKC happening without our schools paying for a big chunk of the development. We want to whine about insufficient money for education, but we want to pass out free ad valorem money to developers.. we probably can't have it both ways.

Add in the sales tax rebates and Leverage Act (what is that?) funds and these guys are almost getting 40% of their apartment project paid for. Omni has to not love this, Im sure the numbers are being gamed to show they're for the apartment towers but in reality are probably helping pay for the hotel tower. The TIFs continue to not just get larger as a whole but larger as a % of the total project. As soon as the 25 year TIF expires, you will see the taxable value of this property lowered significantly after the owners protest the valuation when they have to start making ad valorem payments.

Shortsyeararound
08-02-2023, 03:42 PM
There are a lot more wealthy people in OKC than you realize. Just saying. See all the engineering jobs near or at Tinker. They all pay very well. And a lot live downtown.

You just assumed that I don’t think there are more wealthy people here than I realize - I never said that and you would be wrong. What I said is that if the FNC is 2/3 rented then there might be a little concern with 900 more units around the same cost. If the golden rule of renting is to not spend more than 30% of your bring home salary (13k is needed monthly) which equates to a total bring home of $156k a year after taxes, etc to rent a whole apt. I know there are high paying jobs but at that point in salary, wouldn’t the better option be to buy their own place vs renting. The benefit to Okc for someone of that salary vs another city is that pretty much every option is open to them. I like downtown but don’t think I would enjoy paying 4k for sharing walls with someone not being my wife or child and the fact that there is not a true grocery store option (besides Homeland) makes this option limited for me. You can live in a 2 bed apt in Malibu with ocean views for 4500-5k, just saying.

Pete
08-02-2023, 03:43 PM
^

Yes, the hotel can't be included in the proposal but if they get the $200 million you can bet some of that will go toward the hotel.

Midtowner
08-02-2023, 03:56 PM
Add in the sales tax rebates and Leverage Act (what is that?) funds and these guys are almost getting 40% of their apartment project paid for. Omni has to not love this, Im sure the numbers are being gamed to show they're for the apartment towers but in reality are probably helping pay for the hotel tower. The TIFs continue to not just get larger as a whole but larger as a % of the total project. As soon as the 25 year TIF expires, you will see the taxable value of this property lowered significantly after the owners protest the valuation when they have to start making ad valorem payments.

And that would probably be correct re property values. Especially in an historic building like that. I imagine many of the systems installed aren't going to have much more than a 20-year operational life they aren't likely to invest heavily in it towards the end fo that time, and a commercial property loses a lot of its tax advantages after 20 years, so a 25-year time frame is particularly problematic for a TIF. But what's problematic for the taxpayer is usually profit for the developer.. and O'Connor (or whomever) isn't on the taxpayer's payroll.

Laramie
08-02-2023, 04:37 PM
^

Yes, the hotel can't be included in the proposal but if they get the $200 million you can bet some of that will go toward the hotel.

Pete, you are 100% correct. How in the world can they monitor itemize costs of $200 million spread over a $736 million development.

Mesta Parker
08-02-2023, 05:24 PM
“The development will include 132 units of workforce housing and a 2,000-square-foot workforce development center in partnership with the nonprofit Aspiring Anew Generation. Carras said workforce training will be available to the entire community.

In other locations with the program, residents generally exit the housing after two years to make way for others to come in, Carras said. The rent will be about $1,800 per month for a two-bedroom apartment, based on U.S. Housing and Urban Development figures.“

Where does Aspiring Anew Generation get its funding?

Even though the workforce house is substantially less expensive than the apartments at market, the rent at $1800 is still well above the average apartment rent in OKC. Does “Aspiring” pay the rent or the participant? If “Aspiring”, wouldn’t they be able to provide services to more people in a lower rent location? If the workforce participant must pay, how will they afford it?

Just trying to understand.

BoulderSooner
08-02-2023, 06:28 PM
How in the world can they monitor itemize costs of $200 million spread over a $736 million development.

universitys gov org's business' all do this every day ..

Teo9969
08-02-2023, 08:15 PM
Add in the sales tax rebates and Leverage Act (what is that?) funds and these guys are almost getting 40% of their apartment project paid for. Omni has to not love this, Im sure the numbers are being gamed to show they're for the apartment towers but in reality are probably helping pay for the hotel tower. The TIFs continue to not just get larger as a whole but larger as a % of the total project. As soon as the 25 year TIF expires, you will see the taxable value of this property lowered significantly after the owners protest the valuation when they have to start making ad valorem payments.

I haven't seen that OK County does a lot of overvaluing. I'm no fan of the 25 year TIF, but assuming this gets built as advertised, the market valuation of this after 25 years will likely be no less than $700M in 2023 dollars (so over $1B in 2045 dollars) and they won't succeed getting that lowered that will be nice for the county when that comes online.

Mr. Blue Sky
08-02-2023, 08:19 PM
Let’s hope there isn’t wide and systemic fraud. Expectations that there will be misuse of government funds, as per the $200 mil, says a lot. It must happen frequently or smart people wouldn’t just casually expect this to happen.

Rover
08-02-2023, 08:22 PM
Pete, you are 100% correct. How in the world can they monitor itemize costs of $200 million spread over a $736 million development.
Companies do it all the time.

HOT ROD
08-03-2023, 01:14 AM
I honestly can't believe all of the complaining going on here with regard to this development. We say we want OKC to be in the big leagues of cities yet complain CONSTANTLY when big development is announced - too much TIF, not enough folks to fill it, Omni will be unhappy. WHO GIVES A F! excuse my english.

Guys, in case some of you haven't realized, OKC is in a new building boom and chapter in its life. We've passed 700,000 residents and are very likely to remain a major league city for the next 30+ years (5 year lease already extended, 25+ year lease to be approved). This attracts development that we all have been screaming for, here it is in real like. Like it or not, development like this needs help. Yes, the buildings may not fill immediately and that's why it's being phased and why they need TIF. It's not a hand-out, they wont get a dime of the 90% ad valorem until it's built and open for business.

Crying over the amount is childish in my opinion. These developers are building a massive project in a very unproven Oklahoma City upscale housing market. They believe the market is there, as do I when you consider the cachet that OKC has achieved. First National is 2/3 full, perhaps there are folks that want to live downtown in a new tower not an old one. Perhaps there are folks that want to be downtown but not in the CBD. Earlier in threads people are screaming about OKC not having any high-rise residential yet HERE IT IS and now there's doubt?

I appreciate constructive criticism but I disdain the constant cynicism of developer aspirations. There's confidence to build Oak and OKANA, why would there NOT be confidence to build this - especially given the new arena coming online which IM SURE the developers where aware of when they put this together last year (just probably didn't know the size/price tag). Now that it's known to be $1B, having this project seems to be a natural expectation - again, cachet of a major league city on the rise.

Again, let's constructively criticize TIF where necessary but they haven't even approved anything yet and as I see it, they are safeguarding the city this time UNLIKE what they did with Omni - which they gave the key (including massive $85m TIFF) to the city for 15 years to build a 17 floor hotel that most of us would agree is underbuilt. This development will have more than 900 units, over 130 units under-market and a workforce center. $1600 is the US HUD approved amount for a 2 br downtown unit, it's downtown guys, not in the suburbs where $1400 gets you a 4 Br house. If anything, FNC is proving the market for $3900 otherwise they'd have to lower it, right? 2/3 full after a year is somewhat to be expected, especially for an unproven upscale market in a historic (old) building in the CBD. These guys have done the performas and comps and I bet some of my argument has played into their analysis that OKC is a good bet. They're the FIRST to build a highrise tower, let alone a new highrise district actually. I for one, am delighted with their proposal and to me THIS is what TIF should be used for. I only wish we had done similar with Omni and had them build residential above or next to the 17 floor tower they did build, with the TIF we gave them. To me, it is Omni that is holding OKC back for 10 more years, but the city did that and to me it was a mistake.

soonerguru
08-03-2023, 02:20 AM
This will pass and I support it.

Mr. Blue Sky
08-03-2023, 02:59 AM
Rod, I support the project, but it’s perfectly fine for people to voice their opinions on TIF, the amounts, and anything else in opposition. Most members are taxpayers who live here and we’re talking a ton of money, I get that. Respectfully, your post came across as a lecture to those who have an opinion different from yours, and that lecture coming from someone who doesn’t even live here probably doesn’t sit well with more than a few members who do live in Oklahoma City, pay taxes here, etc.

HOT ROD
08-03-2023, 03:49 AM
appreciate your position and respect it. however, i was not intending to do a lecture but more of a 'welcome to the league of big cities' with examples I've seen on this forum. I mentioned constructive criticism in my 'lecture' as what could be appreciated but often I just see people upset or whining about the amounts expecting developers to foot the entire bill for projects in an otherwise unproven market or on-and-on about what they can or can't afford or a suburban house get this so therefore there isn't a potential market in this downtown city.

This is the first, large scale, residential downtown highrise district in OKC's history. DISTRICT = more than 1 residential tower, most cities only have one at a time. I'd expect a residential district to warrant assistance, and the city was smart in crafting it as a rebate rather than upfront (which it was upfront with Omni, with no strings and no requirements and restricts the city from other highrise hotels).

TIFs are common in other growing cities, even those that are proven markets for projects. Agree with me or not, but let's be constructive. Again, OKC welcome to the big leagues.

BimmerSooner
08-03-2023, 06:54 AM
What’s the typical ft/floor for residential of this type? 13.5?

jdross1982
08-03-2023, 07:18 AM
I understand the argument against using TIF or the amount but OKC has constantly used public funds to inject life into downtown/bricktown. Due to the size and amount of undeveloped land downtown/bricktown this will continue to happen for another 10-15 years until more of downtown/bricktown area has filled out with more infill like this project. Surface parking lots need to be developed into parking garages or 10-15 story buildings. More retail, more restaurants and increased delivery of groceries in the area as I don't see a grocery going in downtown.

Pete
08-03-2023, 07:27 AM
What’s the typical ft/floor for residential of this type? 13.5?

Probably more like 12.5.

That is the average floor height at the Omni and hotels and residential tend to be similar, with office buildings employing taller floor heights to allow for large, open floor plans.

onthestrip
08-03-2023, 11:15 AM
I haven't seen that OK County does a lot of overvaluing. I'm no fan of the 25 year TIF, but assuming this gets built as advertised, the market valuation of this after 25 years will likely be no less than $700M in 2023 dollars (so over $1B in 2045 dollars) and they won't succeed getting that lowered that will be nice for the county when that comes online.

Its not overvaluing when the developer can show they spent $550 million on it, then collect the big fat TIF rebates. The higher the value the quicker they get their full TIF allotment back. Then when they are on the hook for the payments themselves, I will guarantee you they get their taxable value reduced. When a million or two are is the line, they will hire lawyers and anyone else to fight for a lower property tax, and will get it. Even Devon tower had its taxable value reduced by $90 million 3 years ago.

BoulderSooner
08-03-2023, 11:25 AM
I will guarantee you they get their taxable value reduced. When a million or two are is the line, they will hire lawyers and anyone else to fight for a lower property tax, and will get it. Even Devon tower had its taxable value reduced by $90 million 3 years ago.

devon had the taxable value reduced while in is fully in a TIF period?

onthestrip
08-03-2023, 11:40 AM
devon had the taxable value reduced while in is fully in a TIF period?

Yes I was curious about that. Or maybe their TIF includes an area and not just their property? But wanted to show how big valuable properties can easily get their values reduced down the road.

This played out with windmills. The state gave large property tax rebates, essentially a tif, to wind farm developers. When those ran out or expired, the wind mill owners came back to county assessors arguing their windmills were worth way less, and ended up getting their taxable values reduced along with their ad valorem bills being reduced.

Pete
08-03-2023, 12:17 PM
The Devon TIF does not expire until 2033. Until that time, all property tax on the Devon Energy Center (the only property that is included) will be funneled to the TIF. That money can only be spent downtown; most of it has gone toward Project 180 at Devon's insistence.

Like all OKC TIF districts, the Devon version is 25 years, the absolute maximum allowed by the Oklahoma constitution. It started in 2008.

BoulderSooner
08-03-2023, 12:29 PM
Yes I was curious about that. Or maybe their TIF includes an area and not just their property? But wanted to show how big valuable properties can easily get their values reduced down the road.

This played out with windmills. The state gave large property tax rebates, essentially a tif, to wind farm developers. When those ran out or expired, the wind mill owners came back to county assessors arguing their windmills were worth way less, and ended up getting their taxable values reduced along with their ad valorem bills being reduced.

do you have a link to this?

Shortsyeararound
08-03-2023, 12:54 PM
I honestly can't believe all of the complaining going on here with regard to this development. We say we want OKC to be in the big leagues of cities yet complain CONSTANTLY when big development is announced - too much TIF, not enough folks to fill it, Omni will be unhappy. WHO GIVES A F! excuse my english.

Guys, in case some of you haven't realized, OKC is in a new building boom and chapter in its life. We've passed 700,000 residents and are very likely to remain a major league city for the next 30+ years (5 year lease already extended, 25+ year lease to be approved). This attracts development that we all have been screaming for, here it is in real like. Like it or not, development like this needs help. Yes, the buildings may not fill immediately and that's why it's being phased and why they need TIF. It's not a hand-out, they wont get a dime of the 90% ad valorem until it's built and open for business.

Crying over the amount is childish in my opinion. These developers are building a massive project in a very unproven Oklahoma City upscale housing market. They believe the market is there, as do I when you consider the cachet that OKC has achieved. First National is 2/3 full, perhaps there are folks that want to live downtown in a new tower not an old one. Perhaps there are folks that want to be downtown but not in the CBD. Earlier in threads people are screaming about OKC not having any high-rise residential yet HERE IT IS and now there's doubt?

I appreciate constructive criticism but I disdain the constant cynicism of developer aspirations. There's confidence to build Oak and OKANA, why would there NOT be confidence to build this - especially given the new arena coming online which IM SURE the developers where aware of when they put this together last year (just probably didn't know the size/price tag). Now that it's known to be $1B, having this project seems to be a natural expectation - again, cachet of a major league city on the rise.

Again, let's constructively criticize TIF where necessary but they haven't even approved anything yet and as I see it, they are safeguarding the city this time UNLIKE what they did with Omni - which they gave the key (including massive $85m TIFF) to the city for 15 years to build a 17 floor hotel that most of us would agree is underbuilt. This development will have more than 900 units, over 130 units under-market and a workforce center. $1600 is the US HUD approved amount for a 2 br downtown unit, it's downtown guys, not in the suburbs where $1400 gets you a 4 Br house. If anything, FNC is proving the market for $3900 otherwise they'd have to lower it, right? 2/3 full after a year is somewhat to be expected, especially for an unproven upscale market in a historic (old) building in the CBD. These guys have done the performas and comps and I bet some of my argument has played into their analysis that OKC is a good bet. They're the FIRST to build a highrise tower, let alone a new highrise district actually. I for one, am delighted with their proposal and to me THIS is what TIF should be used for. I only wish we had done similar with Omni and had them build residential above or next to the 17 floor tower they did build, with the TIF we gave them. To me, it is Omni that is holding OKC back for 10 more years, but the city did that and to me it was a mistake.

Thanks Dad for the lecture.
I support the idea. If it succeeds great, if it doesn’t then the prices come down. I was stating an opinion on the price. The FNC from what I can find has 193 residences and only 2/3 full and then we are going to add 900 more around the same cost. I hope it fills up, I really do. All I was showing was the math and how if this could be problematic at that price. My wife and I could afford it but at our age would not choose to live in an apt even with kids leaving the nest. I would prefer to be in a tent on the beach. So to reiterate- I want this to work. I’m a skeptic by nature and having been born and raised in Okc I love the development going on. I love it.

onthestrip
08-03-2023, 01:21 PM
do you have a link to this?

Heres one that popped up after a search.

https://www.kxii.com/2022/01/20/wind-farm-dispute-causing-nearly-800000-be-withheld-davis-public-schools/

ManAboutTown
08-03-2023, 01:51 PM
Thanks Dad for the lecture.
I support the idea. If it succeeds great, if it doesn’t then the prices come down. I was stating an opinion on the price. The FNC from what I can find has 193 residences and only 2/3 full and then we are going to add 900 more around the same cost. I hope it fills up, I really do. All I was showing was the math and how if this could be problematic at that price. My wife and I could afford it but at our age would not choose to live in an apt even with kids leaving the nest. I would prefer to be in a tent on the beach. So to reiterate- I want this to work. I’m a skeptic by nature and having been born and raised in Okc I love the development going on. I love it.You gotta watch that being a skeptic around here. You'll catch flak for it.

PhiAlpha
08-03-2023, 08:37 PM
You gotta watch that being a skeptic around here. You'll catch flak for it.

People don't catch flak for being skeptical. They get slammed for being skeptical and excessively negative about everything or obsessive and unreasonably negative about one thing.

BoulderSooner
08-03-2023, 08:57 PM
Heres one that popped up after a search.

https://www.kxii.com/2022/01/20/wind-farm-dispute-causing-nearly-800000-be-withheld-davis-public-schools/

that has nothing to do with devon tower

Bellaboo
08-03-2023, 10:40 PM
People don't catch flak for being skeptical. They get slammed for being skeptical and excessively negative about everything or obsessive and unreasonably negative about one thing.

There's a few on here that can't get over incentives to make a high end game changing project work. Might as well cancel everything and just keep the parking lots.... smdh

Shortsyeararound
08-04-2023, 12:42 AM
People don't catch flak for being skeptical. They get slammed for being skeptical and excessively negative about everything or obsessive and unreasonably negative about one thing.

Well I do suffer from OCD but I don’t believe I have been excessively negative- oh well if I have. I’m not worried about my popularity, so it doesn’t bother me. I’ll treat it like a game of old man on the porch yelling at kids to get off my lawn.
Now that I have said that - I personally don’t care about the incentives to builders/developers - let them have them if they can get them. I do live in Okc/OK county and my money does pay taxes here, but this doesn’t really affect me in general. I’m not going to live there, but sure I will stroll around it once built.

HOT ROD
08-07-2023, 06:21 PM
Thanks Dad for the lecture.
I support the idea. If it succeeds great, if it doesn’t then the prices come down. I was stating an opinion on the price. The FNC from what I can find has 193 residences and only 2/3 full and then we are going to add 900 more around the same cost. I hope it fills up, I really do. All I was showing was the math and how if this could be problematic at that price. My wife and I could afford it but at our age would not choose to live in an apt even with kids leaving the nest. I would prefer to be in a tent on the beach. So to reiterate- I want this to work. I’m a skeptic by nature and having been born and raised in Okc I love the development going on. I love it.

You're welcome son. ..

Teo9969
08-07-2023, 11:50 PM
that has nothing to do with devon tower

I did look it up on the county assessor and it is indeed assessed about $90M short of what it was previously.

soonerguru
08-08-2023, 09:45 AM
People don't catch flak for being skeptical. They get slammed for being skeptical and excessively negative about everything or obsessive and unreasonably negative about one thing.

Accurate.

SpaceGuy
08-08-2023, 10:57 AM
feel like that was a really harsh reaction from hotrod. if the taxpayer is footing 1/3 of the cost, then the taxpayer has every right to voice opinion, concerns, or what they feel are shortcomings for the project.

of course okc is going to use TIF to help finance projects that will make a meaningful change to the city. of course OKC is going to provide incentives to bring businesses, housing, and amenities in. and they should! but if my taxes are helping pay for it, i'm allowed to ask questions and provide opinions.

Shortsyeararound
08-08-2023, 11:40 AM
You're welcome son. ..

Move back to Okc then come at me for voicing my opinion as city dwelling tax payer.

gopokes88
08-08-2023, 12:15 PM
People don't catch flak for being skeptical. They get slammed for being skeptical and excessively negative about everything or obsessive and unreasonably negative about one thing.

If only the airport director had the leadership and courage we could get direct flights to London

PhiAlpha
08-08-2023, 12:20 PM
If only the airport director had the leadership and courage we could get direct flights to London

And if he had some real balls, he’d get all these lazy developers to get off their butts and build something immediately.

Sadly, no London flights and empty undeveloped land everywhere with not a big league city worthy project to be seen.

PhiAlpha
08-08-2023, 12:21 PM
Move back to Okc then come at me for voicing my opinion as city dwelling tax payer.

Our first “come at me bro!” of the month!!!!

Shortsyeararound
08-08-2023, 12:33 PM
Our first “come at me bro!” of the month!!!!

Bro!
Bro?
Bro….

LocoAko
08-14-2023, 04:39 PM
https://nondoc.com/2023/08/14/boardwalk-at-bricktown-apartments-aspiring-anew-generation/

Anonymous.
08-14-2023, 05:00 PM
Carras told council members that the Boardwalk project will be built tower by tower based on leasing benchmarks and that it will take between two and six years for completion.

I hope the TIF award can be structured on a per-tower basis as well.

Swake
08-14-2023, 05:25 PM
Built tower by tower based on leasing you don't say? And I was told this post of mine was wrong:

The residential towers are in three phases, they are slated to start one year after the previous phase, but I can tell you that is what the very best case that developer hopes for and phases two and three will start as demand allows. What is the current absorption rate in Oklahoma City for premium high rise apartments? Is there a precedent that shows the market can take on 300+ units per year?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boardwalk070723j.jpg

Pete
08-15-2023, 12:56 PM
The $200,000,000 TIF for this project passed City Council today 7-2, with Cooper and Hamon voting against.


As I always like to point out, by the time these incentives hit a public agenda, closed-door meetings have already taken place and they only move forward when they have enough support at all levels to get approval.

As far as I know - and I've been closely following all this for close to two decades - every single TIF award has passed at every single level due to this process.

soonerguru
08-16-2023, 01:38 PM
I'm generally excited that this is moving forward, but I hope the big dangle of affordable housing is something concrete. After watching Tsoodle on the news last night, it's obvious he doesn't consider housing affordability to be a priority. Randy Hogan and the people involved with this should feel compelled to follow through on the promise, but there is absolutely nothing holding them to it. They can basically do what they want now.

Knowing that, I would have been inclined to vote "No" as well.

Pete
08-16-2023, 05:32 PM
I'm generally excited that this is moving forward, but I hope the big dangle of affordable housing is something concrete. After watching Tsoodle on the news last night, it's obvious he doesn't consider housing affordability to be a priority. Randy Hogan and the people involved with this should feel compelled to follow through on the promise, but there is absolutely nothing holding them to it. They can basically do what they want now.

Knowing that, I would have been inclined to vote "No" as well.

Why would they devote units to affordable housing when they can make a lot more money with market-rate apartments?

I would be shocked if that component stayed; they have zero contractual obligation and it would cost them a lot of money.

HOT ROD
08-17-2023, 01:39 AM
affordable housing does not always mean LOW income housing. there was a presentation where they indicated the affordable housing metric for Oklahoma City is 1,800 for a 2 br residence (or is it 1,600?). This metric was provided by HUD and was indicated it's on par with Houston and Los Angeles; a bit surprising for OKC but still it is from the federal government (HUD).

1800 if that's what it ends up being is not like giving apartments for free, and you can be sure the affordable units will be on low floors. I too hope they include because they will still be able to make money AND provide a service to those who could not otherwise live in a luxury highrise.

AP
08-17-2023, 10:17 AM
Oklahoma City is 1,800 for a 2 br residence

Surely that can't be right?

OkieBerto
08-17-2023, 11:19 AM
Surely that can't be right?

The Douglass at Page Woodson when it first opened had almost all affordable housing rates. A one-bedroom was $675. Not sure if you still have to meet the affordable standards there, but they have gone up to $840 for a one-bedroom. A two bedroom is $999 a month.

Page Woodson Pricing (https://www.pagewoodsonokc.com/the-douglass-floorplans-and-pricing)

ChrisHayes
08-17-2023, 04:36 PM
Hopefully since the TIF passed, we'll get to see some renderings sooner rather than later.

chssooner
08-17-2023, 04:39 PM
I am hoping that this will have to go through the design commission, then city council again.

Urbanized
08-17-2023, 04:48 PM
I am hoping that this will have to go through the design commission, then city council again.
This property is outside of the Bricktown Urban Design District, and so would not be subject to BUDC design review (or DDRC). Instead the City-connected entity that would have the most say over design elements would be OCURA and the associated development agreement between Hogan and the agency.

BoulderSooner
08-17-2023, 07:58 PM
This property is outside of the Bricktown Urban Design District, and so would not be subject to BUDC design review (or DDRC). Instead the City-connected entity that would have the most say over design elements would be OCURA and the associated development agreement between Hogan and the agency.

seems like a big oversight that this is not in the DDRC .. everything just south of this (south of reno north of the river is part of DDRC)

Urbanized
08-17-2023, 09:36 PM
seems like a big oversight that this is not in the DDRC .. everything just south of this (south of reno north of the river is part of DDRC)
All of “Lower Bricktown” is and always was excluded from design review, with the idea being that OCURA would have the design oversight/approval during the development process via PUD.

You can see the exclusion in this graphic (blank white space below Bricktown):

18227

Laramie
08-18-2023, 08:53 AM
Thanks Urbanized for explaining the design and review process with graphic details.

A $736 million housing, hotel and retail development, maybe we can see this development move to ground breaking much like the Chickasaw Tribe's $400 million invested in the OKANA resort following the FAM museum
$125 million completion.

Boardwalk at Bricktown/Dream Hotel will be a welcome addition to the OKC Skyline. Seeing
all the cranes and construction projects within the next half decade will present a growing
pain challenge. Next up, OKC's new $1 billion downtown arena development.

MAPS 1993 passage was the kick start for many public-private developments. Mayor Ron Norick
deserves much needed credit.
.

EtanEiko
08-18-2023, 11:38 AM
I'm so excited to see some more renderings! June 2024 will be here in the blink of an eye! Pumped for OKC to prove this kind of development can work and thrive here.