The Central Presbyterian Church has been sold and will be torn down.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5676754/central-presbyterian-church-to-close-doors-after-servicebrchurch-building-has-been-sold-and-is-expected-to-be-torn-down

Central Presbyterian church was my polling location and I was glad to see it one last time when I voted in the presidential election. I had noticed that the building and parking lot needed repair but was surprised by the above article that the congregation elected to disband and sell the property.

That's a pretty prominent corner. With a demo I presume something is already slated to go there, any clues?

That's a pretty prominent corner. With a demo I presume something is already slated to go there, any clues?

I think there is a Walgreens across the street, so it has to be a CVS........ j/k

I think there is a Walgreens across the street, so it has to be a CVS........ j/k

There's already one of those there too, on the SW corner.

There's already one of those there too, on the SW corner.

Well that's par for the course.

That's sad to see. I briefly dated the daughter of the Pastor in the late 70's.

My polling place!

But I'm not at all surprised, as I've made the point many times about these bigger churches that were built in the middle of the last century.

1) Fewer people are attending church; 2) A lot of people who went to those churches growing up have moved to the outskirts; 3) The tens of thousands attending mega-churches have to come from somewhere.

Every time I vote in that church it just has the smell of neglect and lack of use; it's sad and depressing. And there are dozens if not hundreds of similar properties all over OKC. Get ready for lots of them to close and change hands.

It's interesting because just north of this church was an old car dealership. That is another business that has seen a lot of change and contraction.

That car lot became Dave & Busters, a strip center and Whataburger and Jack in the Box.

To the south at 39th & May, another car dealership became Sam's Club, although part of it is still a horrible looking lot.


You just know that a lot of these big-box retailers are going to start closing as well. Steinmart in nearby Mayfair already has and there will be a lot more to follow.

BTW, that Oklahoman article says they once had 1,100 in their congregation and now they only have 30.

30!!


Just to the east along NW 50th is Mayfair Baptist, Saint Stephens Presbyterian (yes, a 2nd Pres church just a few blocks away) and Mayfair Church of Christ.

I live nearby and all those are big churches with big parking lots that are almost empty on Sunday mornings.

Hundreds of churches in OKC are in the same boat.

BTW, that Oklahoman article says they once had 1,100 in their congregation and now they only have 30.

30!!


Just to the east along NW 50th is Mayfair Baptist, Saint Stephens Presbyterian (yes, a 2nd Pres church just a few blocks away and Mayfair Church of Christ.

I live nearby and all those are big churches with big parking lots that are almost empty on Sunday mornings.

Hundreds of churches in OKC are in the same boat.

Are you referring to what you saw even before the pandemic, or was this just within the last few months? I wouldn't be surprised either way, mainline protestantism is definitely on the wane, even here in the buckle of the Bible belt.

Are you referring to what you saw even before the pandemic, or was this just within the last few months? I wouldn't be surprised either way, mainline protestantism is definitely on the wane, even here in the buckle of the Bible belt.

Before the pandemic.

That's why I'm saying there is going to be an absolute avalanche of church properties meeting the same fate very soon.

Almost all these places were built and/or greatly enlarged in the 60's and 70's.

Central Pres:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpres.jpg

It's interesting because just north of this church was an old car dealership. That is another business that has seen a lot of change and contraction.

That car lot became Dave & Busters, a strip center and Whataburger and Jack in the Box.

To the south at 39th & May, another car dealership became Sam's Club, although part of it is still a horrible looking lot.

Further south down May, to NW 28th & May, was Fretwell Volvo and Jaguar. It always seemed odd to see a car dealership on a tiny piece of land, especially in that part of town. Benchmark Motors bought it out and moved it to NW 13th & Broadway where it joined the Mercedes dealership.

You just know that a lot of these big-box retailers are going to start closing as well. Steinmart in nearby Mayfair already has and there will be a lot more to follow.

That was Smicklas Chevrolet, just north of the church building. That location had a lot of land, I want to say something like 13 acres, it was a lot, really way too much for the dealership. I worked there for 3 years once upon a time.. 5301 N May, phone 943-5721. Seems odd to remember the address and phone.

The Sam's site @ 39th & May was Lynn Hickey Dodge. Dub Richardson Ford was where Lowes is now.
.

^

Thanks for that! I remember all that now that I've heard the names.

Yes, this was back when A) there were a lot more American car dealerships; and B) before those that remained headed to Edmond or Norman.

There is still Metro Ford on the SE corner of 39th & May. I wonder how their business is these days.

^^^^^ Metro Ford has changed names, something like 5 times or so, since that dealership building was built. It changes ownership frequently, which seems odd. David Stanley had it for awhile. In fact, David Stanley also had a Commercial Ford location where the OnCue is now @ NW 36th & May. We used to go in there to pickup our new company fleet cars.

Come to think of it, sorry about detouring the Church Building story, here I am rambling about old New Car Dealerships in the area.

Seems to me that in the post war era church preference has become kinda like popular entertainment. People chose their type of music and lifestyle in their teens and twenties and then stay with it throughout their adult lives. Young people aren’t supposed to like their parents music, hair and clothes. Style of worship is another area of change, IMO.

My office is in the 5100 Brookline building. Will be curious to see how that corner develops.

I've been following this and there still has not been a recorded sale.

No idea if the planned sale is still on track.

This property sold on 3/3 for $2.45 million.

Buyer was Precor, which is Nick Preftakes.


The rumored plan is complete demolition and redevelopment into a commercial project of some sort.

There goes my polling place!

yay more strip malls and fast food pads probably

yay more strip malls and fast food pads probably

Preftakes has generally been a responsible, local developer. What would you like to see on the site? Honest question.

There goes my polling place!

Comes join us at Christ Central Church just east of there.

Preftakes has generally been a responsible, local developer. What would you like to see on the site? Honest question.

I'm pretty open. This is just the last structure that masses at the corner with the parking behind it. Would be nice to keep that sort of thing instead of contributing to this sea of parking fronting May like we have everywhere else at this corner...

16772

Preftakes has generally been a responsible, local developer. What would you like to see on the site? Honest question.
It’s be nice to change the bar in this area and push any building to the curb with parking in the back and give it character instead of a cookie cutter design.

Nothing against churches but it would be nice to see some demolished so there isn’t one on every corner lol.

I keep saying it, but there are going to be a lot of churches selling their property in the near future, especially those south of Memorial and north of I-240.


Church attendance is dropping everywhere, the OKC area now has tons of mega-churches in outlying areas, and most of these churches were built in the '50s and '60s when not only did people go to church more often, they were surrounded by young families.

In the case of Central Presbyterian, there is another Presby church a 1/2 mile east on 50th. I go by that church all the time as well as the neighboring Mayfair Church of Christ and the parking lots are always empty with just a small amount of cars on Sunday mornings.

We are starting to see the changeover happen. Central Presbyterian, Grace United Methodist on NW 63rd and Tulsa, Northwest Christian Church at NW 30th and May (now Dental Depot HQ). And of course, First Christian at NW 36th and Walker has been for sale for some time. Putnam City Baptist moved way far out in the '80s and sold their property to the PC school district.

I just hope we can find well-designed constructive uses for what is likely to be dozens of former church properties.

It's really similar to the repurposing of old school buildings, although most of those had character and history and lent themselves towards housing and other uses. Not sure there are many uses for churches other than demolition.

Not sure there are many uses for churches other than demolition.

Here are a few great examples. I find these church adaptive re-uses fascinating. A couple of years ago I heard a college professor who is an expert in this talk about these projects below:
https://inhabitat.com/historic-san-francisco-church-creatively-reborn-as-loft-apartments/
http://www.buildingwork.design/news/the-renovation-and-adaptive-reuse-of-churches/
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/call-box/2017-07-14/call-box-karpeles-einstein-s-relativity-theory-mickey-mouse
https://archive.triblive.com/lifestyles/travel/hallelujah-former-church-revived-as-new-washington-d-c-boutique-hotel/

Here are a few great examples. I find these church adaptive re-uses fascinating. A couple of years ago I heard a college professor who is an expert in this talk about these projects below:
https://inhabitat.com/historic-san-francisco-church-creatively-reborn-as-loft-apartments/
http://www.buildingwork.design/news/the-renovation-and-adaptive-reuse-of-churches/
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/call-box/2017-07-14/call-box-karpeles-einstein-s-relativity-theory-mickey-mouse
https://archive.triblive.com/lifestyles/travel/hallelujah-former-church-revived-as-new-washington-d-c-boutique-hotel/

Those are all nice examples, but I don't think they are the category Pete is referring to here. Appears to me that the churches in your links are beautiful, 100 year old structures in dense areas. With the exception of the First Christian Church, Pete is describing mainline, nondescript campuses from roughly 1955-85. Representing the post war, suburban style, they are inefficient in their use of land and square footage, while further burdening their structures with the utilitarian blandness of a government building or hospital. They share the same 4 features; surface parking to meet a peak load of 6 hours a week; Sunday school/classroom space for maybe10 hours a week; kitchen/gym/meeting room that works 15 hours a week, and office space that is used 50 hours a week while utilizing 5 percent of the overall campus.

This no-longer-needed-church-property problem is not unique to OKC but it certainly seems more acute here mainly because our ridiculous and unabated sprawl has led to huge areas of town being regarded as throw-away.

I personally know this better than most because I grew up near NW 63rd & Meridian in the heart of the PC school system when that area was absolutely the 'best' in the Oklahoma City area (apart from Nichols Hills which has always been an entirely different animal).

This was in the '60's and '70's and fast-forward to today where the area has fallen to such a point many now regard it as undesirable. What were once thriving shopping centers and the best and most successful restaurants in town are now an endless string of pawnshops, payday loan storefronts, and vape places. I simply can't believe what has happened to that area in such short time. I'm sure people who went to Northwest Classen and John Marshall in the '60s feel exactly the same, but in their case they have an easy culprit: forced busing. The PC area has collapsed simply because the very far north areas and Edmond offered new housing due to endless cow pastures being turned into subdivisions.

I graduated from high school in 1978, at the tail end of the Baby Boom. My class was 1,000 kids, most upper-middle class. I keep the class database and update it every five years for our reunions. Almost none of the people that grew up in that area continue to live there. Those that are still in Oklahoma are primarily in Edmond or at least in the Edmond schools.


The point being that the locations of most these now deserted church properties are not desirable for investors/developers.

At least this particular church is on the hard corner of a major section line road intersection. 95% of the others are not and I fear they will meet a sad, slow, ugly fate that will contribute to their particular neighborhoods becoming all the more shabby.

Those are all nice examples, but I don't think they are the category Pete is referring to here. Appears to me that the churches in your links are beautiful, 100 year old structures in dense areas. With the exception of the First Christian Church, Pete is describing mainline, nondescript campuses from roughly 1955-85. Representing the post war, suburban style, they are inefficient in their use of land and square footage, while further burdening their structures with the utilitarian blandness of a government building or hospital. They share the same 4 features; surface parking to meet a peak load of 6 hours a week; Sunday school/classroom space for maybe10 hours a week; kitchen/gym/meeting room that works 15 hours a week, and office space that is used 50 hours a week while utilizing 5 percent of the overall campus.

Yes, you are absolutely right about this, as is Pete's comment above as well, when I think about it. We are not talking about centrai, urban locations with high quality builds, but rather mid-century utilitarian buildings without much architectural interest, frankly. So you all are right, most of these will probably meet the wrecking ball.

In the same vein as my examples above, anyone know what has happened to the proposed Travis Watkins Law Firm renovation of our First Church of Christ, Scientist, on Robinson downtown? I thought they were going to renovate it and use it as their new office. That is a beautiful building in a great location.

^

IIRC, Watkins could not obtain historic tax credits and therefore decided not to go forward with a planned renovation.

He bought the property in August 2018 and absolutely nothing has happened there since.

A similar trend started much earlier for the more inner-city churches. The Penn Avenue Church of the Nazarene at 10th and Penn was a thriving church many years ago and was at least active, with a congregation, 20 years ago. Then it became a ministry focused on homeless and near-homeless. It now houses a small inner-city focused non-profit for kids, which is great, but meanwhile the entire building has declined. This is the building that shares a wall with the Hungry Frog, or did while that restaurant was open. It will be interesting to see if this corner is redeveloped.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby032121a.jpg

No demo permit yet, but the backhoe is onsite ready to get busy.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/presbyterian050921a.jpg

I think they're putting a Braum's there lol JK.

Down she comes.

I'm told there are plans for restaurants/retail but no specific plans have been drawn.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/presbyterian052521a.jpg

I get that it was going to get demoed regardless, but I hate this whole let it be demolished without a plan thing.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby052521c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby052521d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby052521e.jpg

I get that it was going to get demoed regardless, but I hate this whole let it be demolished without a plan thing.

I understand what you are saying, but I think there are 2 big factors that make demolition almost a forced choice:

1. I have always been told that assessed property values add for structure(s) on site. So removal can make taxes lower. Also, it can eliminate the need to insure a property.

2. Homelessness: This property is becoming plagued with homeless people camping in any semi-hidden corners and nooks area on the exterior. I don't know that they have broken in, but when they do then securing the space becomes almost impossible.

RIP to the Pokemon Go gym on that corner, eventually.

How sad. But it's just a sign of the times.

I briefly dated the daughter of the Preacher at this church back in the late 70's.

I went by just now and the entire structure is already flattened.

Will take them a while to truck off all the debris. Looks very strange to have those buildings gone.

It's easier to sale this type of property if it's an empty lot. Prospective buyers don't want the added expense to remove structures.

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

OnCue recently bought and plans to develop the former Founders Bank property just a few hundred yards to the north.

7-11 might be a good candidate but I suspect this group will do a fast food place or two with maybe a small strip center, very similar to the old car dealership immediately to the north which is now home to Jack-in-the-Box, Whataburger and some small businesses.

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

Hell to the F No.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby052621a.jpg

Seems ironic Mayfair is mostly empty, unless something has changed recently, but the church is torn down to make room for another retail strip center.

Mayfair has a bunch of deals in the pipeline.

That area is one of the most dense in all of OKC.

I found that ironic as well mugofbeer. I realize this is a dense area (just drive through it some time and see all the traffic), but the turnover on a lot of those spaces is pretty high too. Now isn't the time small business is going to be taking a risk to start and a lot of them have failed in the last year. Mayfair is taking its dang sweet time to move at all on the renovations, so just don't expect anything fast around these parts. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be south of the NWXway.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/centralpresby071121a.jpg

Is that pit from a former basement or did it recently get dug? Scrolled back through pics but couldn't tell.

Is that pit from a former basement or did it recently get dug? Scrolled back through pics but couldn't tell.

A basement. I was surprised to see the steel beams being pulled out earlier this week. The property sits about a foot or two above May Avenue, so getting a good view of the surface is difficult when driving by.

would love to see housing with structured parking here. We need more residential density in the near core of the city to support all those businesses, walkable.

Meh, queue strip mall: Subway, Nail Salon, Liquor Store, & H&R Block, lol.

Meh, queue strip mall: Subway, Nail Salon, Liquor Store, & H&R Block, lol.

It’s not gonna be this bad but I’d be surprised if we get something better than fast casual restaurants and moderately upscale retail chains.

Meh, queue strip mall: Subway, Nail Salon, Liquor Store, & H&R Block, lol.

Nah, not H R Block, Liberty Tax Service with someone in a Statue of Liberty costume spinning a sign out on the corner. ��

hopefully something not in OKC/OKlahoma if it has to be a fast food strip

There is a huge, undeveloped parcel there. To me, it is screaming for a large mixed use development featuring hundreds of apartments, retail, restaurant, and possibly a parking facility. It is a major untapped opportunity.

I can't imagine a better infill housing option in that part of town.

Conversely, turning it into yet another strip center with massive parking frontage would be a huge disappointment.

Any knowledge about who owns it and their plans would be welcomed.

Can you verify your streets on this, I see a CVS and a bank on this corner.