Are there any plans on activating the stoplights on Harvey & OKC? At least have them setup to be manually activated by people wanting to walk across OKC?

That's a LLLOOONNNGGGG walk.

I dunno, we should use OKCB or something.

Are there any plans on activating the stoplights on Harvey & OKC? At least have them setup to be manually activated by people wanting to walk across OKC?

There's a light there now, all setup and covered up, so they could easily do what you suggest.

I know this ain't a knock on the city planners, just an inquiry. Why not implement a pedestrian bridge between the Myriad and Scissortail? I think it would disrupt traffic flow less and also makes the journey a lot more seamless. As an addendum, the bridge itself could be lit by led fixtures or even have a special design to further bring life into the area.

It's been discussed and desired for years and pitched by several in this thread, including myself. We're all right there with you.

I know this ain't a knock on the city planners, just an inquiry. Why not implement a pedestrian bridge between the Myriad and Scissortail? I think it would disrupt traffic flow less and also makes the journey a lot more seamless. As an addendum, the bridge itself could be lit by led fixtures or even have a special design to further bring life into the area.

Why would we need a pedestrian *bridge* from park to park when there are already multiple, direct, and easy points of pedestrian access from and to each park? Just to disrupt traffic less? We need to shift our mindset away from car-first toward pedestrian-first in this city (which will probably be a never-ending battle).

There's a light there now, all setup and covered up, so they could easily do what you suggest.

That's what frustrates me everytime we go down there. Those stoplights have been covered up for what seems like forever. If they don't want a permanent stoplight I am sure they could set them up where they are always green and only cycle when activated by someone wanting to cross.

Why would we need a pedestrian *bridge* from park to park when there are already multiple, direct, and easy points of pedestrian access from and to each park? Just to disrupt traffic less? We need to shift our mindset away from car-first toward pedestrian-first in this city (which will probably be a never-ending battle).

as long as we're just tossing out our dream scenarios, I'd love if they pulled off a tunnel between the parks. would solve the traffic/pedestrian interaction issues, but more importantly IMO is walking through that parking lot after being under the tree canopy at Myriad in the summer can feel like a 50 degree swing

The best way to solve the pedestrian/traffic interaction issues would be to tear out the giant highway the city put through the middle of an area they hoped would be frequented by pedestrians.

The best way to solve the pedestrian/traffic interaction issues would be to tear out the giant highway the city put through the middle of an area they hoped would be frequented by pedestrians.

I thought the blvd was the State's doing, not the city's. OKC is greatly held back by the state.

It was only the states because it was old I-40 ROW. Pretty sure the state turned it over to OKC, there was a ceremony and everything.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco082221a.jpg

Lots of great work memories on that property a quarter century ago. Spent five years of my life there.

Interesting, so they're putting additional sidewalk in on the inside of the streetcar tracks?

I may be confused but it appears these curbs and sidewalks are aligned more-or-less with the original street grid. Here's my question: when those developing this land come up with a design, if they don't want to follow this grid will it then be torn out?

I may be confused but it appears these curbs and sidewalks are aligned more-or-less with the original street grid. Here's my question: when those developing this land come up with a design, if they don't want to follow this grid will it then be torn out?

yes with out question .. reopening the north south harvey street .. is pointless ..

They have to do something with these lots, I know they get paid a ton for Thunder game parking.

But geez, this has to be the most valuable piece of land in all of OKC.

I may be confused but it appears these curbs and sidewalks are aligned more-or-less with the original street grid. Here's my question: when those developing this land come up with a design, if they don't want to follow this grid will it then be torn out?

If I remember correctly, the city is pretty adamant about leaving Harvey and 2nd open here. I don't think developers are going to have the option to not follow that grid.

If I remember correctly, the city is pretty adamant about leaving Harvey and 2nd open here. I don't think developers are going to have the option to not follow that grid.

the city previously petitioned to close that street and the east west street ...

i have little doubt that they would let a developer close it if the right project was proposed

What are the chances the developers are simply waiting 10 years before a new NBA arena proposed for this site and we will be stuck with a parking lot in the heart of downtown for at least another decade? Hopefully low.

They are spending millions of dollars to upgrade the Paycom Center in the next few years, so they won't be building a new arena any time soon.

Paycom Arena already has most of the features of the latest/greatest basketball venues.

The throw-away of the last generation of arenas was mainly due to the lack of suites and other amenities that we already have, and more will be added through MAPS 4.

I seriously doubt we'll need an entirely new arena for at least 20 years and maybe beyond.


The Midtown Renaissance / Fred Jones partnership that owns this land has done nothing but fantastic development in the core, and when the time is right I'm sure we'll see a great mixed-use development on this site.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco092721a.jpg

^ Forgive me for my ignorance and if it's already been mentioned, but what is that black asphalt strip near the streetcar track towards the bottom? I walked from Scissortail towards the Myriad Gardens for a show Saturday evening and I wondered about it. Didn't seem like a sidewalk to me, more like a walking/biking trail but maybe I'm wrong.

it's a pedestrian path, which is cool, but also odd since there's a pretty wide sidewalk opposite the tracks

Super weird that they laid it down as asphalt instead of concrete to match the other sidewalks in the area. The pedestrian path over in the park have a purpose and are a good walking surface, this doesn't go anywhere you would want a good walking surface for.

If you look in the middle right of the photo, it exists up there, too, so I guess maybe they're going around the whole thing, or at least 3 of the 4 sides...

does the REHCO lands qualify to be a parking crater, OKC's largest?

Is this the land between scissortail and myriad gardens?

What is the plan for this land?

Is this the land between scissortail and myriad gardens?

What is the plan for this land?

Yes.

Nothing planned yet. Owned by the Fred Jones group and Midtown Renaissance, so they'll eventually do some thing high-quality.

Is this the land between scissortail and myriad gardens?

What is the plan for this land?

All you need to do is look at the first post of this thread, and see how long that was ago. So I wouldn't get your hopes up.

A seasonal snow cone stand across from Spark would be an improvement.

I suspect they will hold off until a possible new arena is built or at least announced/financed.

Yes.

Nothing planned yet. Owned by the Fred Jones group and Midtown Renaissance, so they'll eventually do some thing high-quality.

Why don’t they just sell it to someone who will actually do something with it now? Are they just trying to hold on til it’s more valuable?



Yes, I’m being facetious. :)

If it ever does get developed it won't be by the current owners. The next owner will do it though.

I think a lot of people would settle for a little landscaping on the Ford site if they're going to take their time with it. It's in the middle of downtown with public investment all around it, and it looks terrible.

If it ever does get developed it won't be by the current owners. The next owner will do it though.

Ridiculous statement.

Ridiculous statement.

The first post in this thread was 13 years ago. If they were going to do it themselves they would have done it by now.

Yet another ridiculous statement.

Completely ignores the patient and calculated and deliberative nature of the development to date by this group, which in aggregate is probably the most impressive grouping of urban projects in the past decade. Add in the fact that the developers behind Jones Assembly, 21C and West Village would also likely be involved, and you have some of the most effective, patient capital this city has ever seen.

^
I think that is the point Just The Facts is trying to make. With the great track record from this group why let the best real estate in all of OKC sit in despair as a parking lot? Its been 13 years since they officially announced something on this site, so no something is not right.

They officially announced something, and then the convention center discussion and dealings with the city changed everything.

I’m certain that the main reason behind any pause now is that two super blocks immediately adjacent are in massive flux, positioning for once-in-a-generation change involving public money, a likely vote of the people, and a need to ensure the Thunder remains across the street, which is not a given. A secondary reason is surely that they are concentrating their development focus on a different part of downtown.

On one hand I find it remarkable how entitled folks feel to demand that someone develop a property even when the highest and best use had yet to be made 100% obvious due to outside, developing factors.

But I’m also surprised how few people here appreciate how massively unsettled the future currently is for those two super locks on the east side of Robinson. Again, generational change is likely, and a move without knowing the outcome would be foolhardy. These guys are better positioned than almost anyone in OKC to know this.

And again, the national office market is chaotic right now and probably headed for a sea change before things are sorted out. If office was going to be a part of any planned development it would DEFINITELY warrant a wait-and-see approach.

^

I agree with everything you are saying about this property.

Beyond the Halls and Midtown Renaissance group doing the absolute best commercial development in the core and on a large scale, they both genuinely care about OKC and urbanist principles.

I love new development more than anyone but in this instance, I'm happy to patiently wait until the time is right for them to do something fantastic on this site. It's the most important private parcel in the entire city.

If it doesn’t wind up being multiple 20+ story towers then the future development will be a massive failure. /s

Make excuses for whatever. But the fact remains this is the most prime real estate in all of OKC and it been sitting vacant for decades. They are sitting on the property and just raking in money from the parking contract they have with the Thunder. Office does not have to be part of this development at all. A mix of hotel, housing, and retail would be perfect. But again who am I right, I just call it like I see it. Same with the Goodwill property and Lumberyard.

Too bad Randy Hogan and company didn't own this property would love to see his Dream Hotel project on this site vs. Bricktown.

Too bad Randy Hogan and company didn't own this property would love to see his Dream Hotel project on this site vs. Bricktown.

If he owned it there would already be something like Bass Pro and a bunch of 1-story buildings and acres of surface parking, just like Lower Bricktown.

Also, Hogan has owned that Dream parking lot for 26 years.

And again, the national office market is chaotic right now and probably headed for a sea change before things are sorted out. If office was going to be a part of any planned development it would DEFINITELY warrant a wait-and-see approach.
Look, if they would just consider a strip mall that had amenities we don’t have downtown like a city target, 7 eleven, CVS, we could redevelop it in 5-10 ye…

/s

In all seriousness with this property I completely agree with a wait and see approach rather than my ideology for getting development for the COOP site.

There are many on these boards who apparently think development is like playing Sim City. Development has never been easy, but as Urbanized points out, is as difficult now as it’s ever been. Most have no clue of the financial commitments and risk involved. Anyone can conceptualize great looking buildings fitting rigid urbanism dogma. Getting those to work financially is way more difficult than most even imagine.

This develop on demand attitude is unrealistic. OKC doesn’t demand development at any cost. We love it, but serious money people tread carefully when investing here.

Tax parking at a much higher rate and see who cries the loudest. Then you will know what business they are in.

Tax parking at a much higher rate and see who cries the loudest. Then you will know what business they are in.

Afraid that the only problem with raising the rate of taxes on parking, the council affects all paved surface parking lots. Owners will past that tax on to the customers.

In a lot of ways, this site is make or break for Downtown. Perhaps not make or break in terms of downtown being a great deatination in the center for the residents of OKC to come together as a community.

I do think it's a make or break site in terms of whether or not we are going to ever be a serious contender for a Tier II city. Ultimately, some element of this site needs to contain something that is unique in the city/state and also something that stands out in the region. In a lot of ways, the site needs to be able to gather thousands of people into one place and serve the surrounding area.

This site very likely has a huge footprint of building(s) that are 15-45 stories which means it's going to take north of $1B to develop in 2025+ dollars. You can't rush the confluence of things that need to come together to ensure the right thing is built here and the point about the future of the Thunder absolutely matters.

Something we should consider: the performance of the Convention Center will greatly impact the floor count of a very probable hotel on the site, so a few years is most welcome.


I will say that I agree some things should be done to beautify this area. A food truck park is likely viable for at least 5 years and would have so much success with the parks and different events that congregate in that area.

This site very likely has a huge footprint of building(s) that are 15-45 stories which means it's going to take north of $1B to develop in 2025+ dollars.

They don't have to develop the whole site at once. My guess is they want to sell it to the city for a new arena, then used the windfall profits to fund development on their property in midtown. In the meantime nothing gets developed for the next 10 years.

Everything is a conspiracy to have surface parking.

Urbanized is as close to the heartbeat on these things as anyone can get without being directly involved and displays wisdom beyond his years in interpreting that pulse. I would bet his opinion is as close to reality on this matter as is possible.

What exactly is Urbanized's opinion with regard to this site? It will get developed when it gets developed and not a second sooner? That is a pretty bold stance to take.

They don't have to develop the whole site at once. My guess is they want to sell it to the city for a new arena, then used the windfall profits to fund development on their property in midtown. In the meantime nothing gets developed for the next 10 years.

They wouldnt sell it to the city at a fair price for core to shore. The city will not overpay to place a stadium there in the future.

What exactly is Urbanized's opinion with regard to this site? It will get developed when it gets developed and not a second sooner? That is a pretty bold stance to take.
On one thread you’re arguing with me and agreeing with Urbanized about my stance on the COOP site but here you’re taking a complete opposite stance. What’s the deal?

There are many on these boards who apparently think development is like playing Sim City. Development has never been easy, but as Urbanized points out, is as difficult now as it’s ever been. Most have no clue of the financial commitments and risk involved. Anyone can conceptualize great looking buildings fitting rigid urbanism dogma. Getting those to work financially is way more difficult than most even imagine.

This develop on demand attitude is unrealistic. OKC doesn’t demand development at any cost. We love it, but serious money people tread carefully when investing here.

Yes, I always think if you desperately wish to see something developed, you should become a developer.

They don't have to develop the whole site at once. My guess is they want to sell it to the city for a new arena, then used the windfall profits to fund development on their property in midtown. In the meantime nothing gets developed for the next 10 years.

I agree, in 10 years, they will be saying the same thing: "It will get developed when the market allows it", lol.

Ah yes the old, why don't you do it argument. I'm not a developer so it isn't my job to do it.

It really comes down to this. The taxpayers have spent a lot of money in this area; MBG, Scissortail, Convention Center, Streetcar, OMNI, and OKC Blvd. The expectation that taxpayers had was that this spending would spur adjacent economic development. However, the three largest landowners in the area aren't doing their part. Instead of building off the tax dollars spent they either do nothing or sell parking, all the while repeaing the benefit of increased property values.

The carrot has not worked and it is getting close to time that we need to use the switch. OKC is on the verge of squandering billions in public dollars. Why do I say this? Look where the most organic growth has been occuring: midtown, OAK, Deep Duce, and the far flung edges of the city. The places that have NOT received billions in taxpayer dollars. In many cases the exact sames landowners are the ones developing these other areas.

What we are seeing play out on this message board is the difference between spectators and activists. The spectators comes here to learn what is going on, add some commentary, and then accept whatever happens. The activists come here to change the course of events, be it new urbanism principles, land value taxation, TIF, etc...

I have come to think that OKC has approached downtown revitalization all wrong. In fact most cities are getting it wrong. We stimulated growth through government spending. Direct spending through MAPS, indirect spending through TIFs, grants, forgivable loans, property tax abatement, etc... But the benefits of those only last as long as the handouts keep coming, and when we get to properties like the Ford site, Lumberyard, Strawberry Fields, and Coop the City has no mechanism to force movement.

If you play poker then you know that anties, big and small blinds are there to force action on the table. Without them a person could just fold every hand. That is fine for the person folding but not great for the other players, or the person waiting on the outside that can't get a seat at the table.

We need big and small blinds for developers. Bet or pay the penalty for sitting at the table and doing nothing. If they can't or don't want to then let someone else play. You can't tell me that there isn't a project right now that wouldn't be profitable on the Ford site. There are probably hundreds of developers that could turn that vacant lot into a profitable project - if they owned the land.

We need to get that land into the hands of one of those other people, so what is the best ways to do it? More government spending in the area with TIFs and MAPS? That hasn't worked so far. It is time to play hardball and make parking lots and vacant lots unprofitable. If anyone has a suggestion on how to do that speak up.

Finally, let's stop pretending that the developer profession is some field that only the smartest and greatest can aspire to. Trump was a developer, made billions, and most of you think he is the dumbest guy on the planet and the most evil since Hitler. Being a developer is not difficult. Any of us could go do it right now, but it does come with risk so most of us don't do it and we choose to earn our income in other pursuits.

Finally, let's stop pretending that the developer profession is some field that only the smartest and greatest can aspire to. Trump was a developer, made billions, and most of you think he is the dumbest guy on the planet and the most evil since Hitler. Being a developer is not difficult. Any of us could go do it right now, but it does come with risk so most of us don't do it and we choose to earn our income in other pursuits.

I'm a developer, and I disagree. It's very difficult! It's very difficult to convince people to give you the money to build anything, because people are smart with their money, and it's too expensive to do it yourself. It's very difficult to build something that works as well (ask Devon and BOK), what's the point of building a castle and leaving it sit vacant for a hundred years because nobody needs it, how the investors will get their money back, what if it's a bad project to start with, knock it down and building something else later? I'm sure that if you can find the developers who have the brains and pockets to make this site work, the owner will be happy to hand off their land. Figuring out ways to navigate risks isn't easy, that's why most people don't do it. What you're saying is like: all of us can cross the Sahara, the risks are we may get lost and run out of water, that's why most of us don't do it. Yes, that's simple.

Btw, I believe many smart people don't think Trump is dumb either, and not sure if Hitler was dumb either, but I'm sure he was an evil.

If Randy Hogan can pull off building four 24-26 story high rises between a railroad track and a Uhaul storage, you can't tell me nothing can't work right now for this Ford site.