$50 bet, to the first taker, that nothing of great importance to the downtown landscape gets developed on this property by the end of 2020. Pete can even hold my money for me and a show of good faith, lol.

Whenever they build it, whatever use it has, it has to be extremely sculptural. This is a chance for OKC to create a structure or several structures that encompass the architectural identity similar to the stage center or even the Kansa City performing arts center. Imagine being in the building and looking out to the new park and scissortail bridge, or looking towards downtown. Beautiful views! It needs to be an extremely architectural building. Something that is designed by a world renowned Architect. OKC deserves that.

They didn’t “make the city take them to court”. The city choose to pursue ED on the site. Because the owners didn’t agree to their price. Period. They thought their land was worth more than the city was offering them. And guess what they were correct

1. MidtownR rejected the City's offer, which forced them into eminent domain proceedings
2. They asked $100MM when it was nowhere near worth that amount and knew the City only had $13MM budgeted
3. They demanded they City consider trading them the Cox site
4. They supeoned sensitive information about the convention center and hotel studies, things that had not previously been made public
5. The day before Cathy O'Connor was to be deposed in all this, the City dropped the eminent domain lawsuit
6. Several news reports described the proeedings as contenious

They have a civic obligation of course to make sure that when they develop this land it does not detract from its surroundings, and I believe these owners will take that further and make sure it is the highest and best use, in part because they are good corporate citizens and in part because they are excellent businessmen.

What leads you to believe they are good corporate citizens when they are buying and hoarding key properties and waiting for public investments to maximize their value? Sounds more like profiteering than being leaders. They may know how to make money but I’ve yet to see them do real game changing development that induces other real development. Buy and hold isn’t leadership.

Strawman, as no one has said anything remotely close.


Reminder that the owners fought tooth and nail not to let the city acquire this property for the convention center, taking them to court.

They also refuse to sell any of their properties (and Bob Howard has said he absolutely will not consider that) and they own a ton that remain un- or under-developed throughout the urban core. They also recently chose to move a huge business out of the core to the far north side of town creating much more vacant property with no real plan to develop it.


Everyone wants something great at this location but considering this ownership group has been sitting on it and a bunch of other properties for a long time and tends to move very slowly -- and has never come close to developing anything on this scale -- people are right to be concerned that this spot could sit vacant for quite a while. It already has.

Sounds like money grubbing land barons

They can be responsible and conservative and still lead. They don’t have to develop the whole site at once. If they develop a great plan for the space with staged development, they can induce more development AND help increase the value of the land. They could create the vision and develop a single signature building to kick start the development. Let’s say they develop a mid-rise mixed use on the corner across from the Omni, Park, and arena that becomes the gateway to the development and show the quality and type of vision they will promote. It doesn’t have to be a huge investment. A 12-15 story building with a 10,000 sq ft footprint can be built for $25-35 million. Then, if they invite other developers to join them in developing additional pieces of the site, they can kick start the whole thing.

We have gotten into the mindset that we need huge projects and single developers when we really need many developers and significant smaller pieces added one at a time.

What leads you to believe they are good corporate citizens when they are buying and hoarding key properties and waiting for public investments to maximize their value? Sounds more like profiteering than being leaders. They may know how to make money but I’ve yet to see them do real game changing development that induces other real development. Buy and hold isn’t leadership.

I absolutely agree that Buy and Hold isn't leadership, and it is definitely a problem in this city. To me it also shows a lack of faith in our market which is disappointing.

That being said - I don't think the Howards were involved with West Village but we know that Hall is involved with REHCO. West Village absolutely is game changing development for that area. But even that is nowhere near the level of development nor investment that this land needs/deserves.

I think people have to consider that there's a chance this site and/or the Cox site are on hold until we find another major corporation that wants to come in and headquarter downtown. Coming up with $250M and coming up with $500M are completely different ballparks. This site merits well beyond either one of those numbers and that's almost surely going to require a company that can anchor a massive mixed-use development. That kind of company needs to be employing close to 1000 people in those headquarters, and we don't have just tons of those in this market, and all of the ones that are not downtown have no real intention of leaving their digs anytime soon.

If they cannot find a way to activate the Harvey spine once the park is complete, that is worrisome, but the rest of this remaining parking until 2025 seems disappointing, but filling this area with a bigger version of West Village...well...that would be...unfortunate.

Even if you include streets, the 21c, Jones and all of West Village, that is only 8 acres.

This old dealership site is 18 acres and deserves something way more dense than the west end of Film Row.

This site is half the size of the entire Producers Coop. It's larger than the Cox Center site and the presumption has been all the way along that those 14 Cox acres will be divided up amoung multiple developers.

MidtownR has yet to develop anything larger than an acre or more than 4 stories tall.


If there is going to be something dense and worthwhile, I just don't see it happening for a long time.

Reminder of what MidtownR already owns and how much of it is un- or under-developed:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/midtown062418.jpg

Would love to see Midtown R work with Bradshaw. Having Bradshaw’s proposal for the convention center parking garage be built across from Fassler or on the Bleu Garten site would be amazing.

Pete, out of curiosity who are the faces behind Midtown R?

Pete, out of curiosity who are the faces behind Midtown R?

Bob Howard (car dealer) and Mickey Clagg.

This old dealership site is co-owned by the Hall family as well.

The city is in the process of selling about half an acre of land on the west side of Robinson to REHCO, the group headed by Bob Howard that owns the adjacent property.

There are no signs REHCO is going to develop this land any time soon -- especially now.

Will be paying $1.06 million.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco061620a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco061620b.jpg

Would absolutely love to see a Hilton or JW Marriott on this site. Something 20-30 stories would be amazing and bridge the gap in the skyline between CBD and Omni. One can dream, right?

Would absolutely love to see a Hilton or JW Marriott on this site. Something 20-30 stories would be amazing and bridge the gap in the skyline between CBD and Omni. One can dream, right?

Given the people behind it, I would think that a major hotel will go up on the se corner of that lot, unless the convention center is a huge flop. But they may as well wait a 5-10 years to get an idea of how things are going to shape up before they determine the scale of what they plan on building. It's a multi-generational site.

Possibly a future hotel maybe 7 to 10 years away if Omni doesn't exercise their 1st rights of refusal. OKC's agreement with Omni; no other new hotel is allowed to encroach upon the Omni for 25 years IIRC. Does this agreement affect an expansion of the 395 room Sheraton or 319 room Renaissance increasing their size...

If the success of the 605 room Omni exceed expectations and the city needs another hotel for convention support; then Omni will be given the first rights to propose a hotel which includes the Cox site if that convention center is ever demolished. Is there any agreement with Omni that OKC would be responsible to incentivized an Omni if they were to build a 300 or more room adjacent hotel on the convention center parcel.

Will the convention industry be so lucrative (Post Covid-19/vaccine) come MAPS 5 renewal in 2028 that the Cox site will propose modification to accommodate the booming convention industry that will engulf OKC for a 2030 expansion.

Whoever takes control of this parcel of land, I hope they will consider some 'meanwhile' use until they undertake a full-scale development. It is a blight on an otherwise exceptional part of the city. A supersized OKSea would get my vote, but really anything that formalized a pedestrian route between Scissortail and the Myriad would be a start.

Possibly a future hotel maybe 7 to 10 years away if Omni doesn't exercise their 1st rights of refusal. OKC's agreement with Omni; no other new hotel is allowed to encroach upon the Omni for 25 years IIRC. Does this agreement affect an expansion of the 395 room Sheraton or 319 room Renaissance increasing their size...

If the success of the 605 room Omni exceed expectations and the city needs another hotel for convention support; then Omni will be given the first rights to propose a hotel which includes the Cox site if that convention center is ever demolished. Is there any agreement with Omni that OKC would be responsible to incentivized an Omni if they were to build a 300 or more room adjacent hotel on the convention center parcel.

Will the convention industry be so lucrative (Post Covid-19/vaccine) come MAPS 5 renewal in 2028 that the Cox site will propose modification to accommodate the booming convention industry that will engulf OKC for a 2030 expansion.

the Omni only has the first right to build a hotel on the cox site if the city wants a hotel there ..

they have no ability to block a hotel on this site ...

NOTE: city money can not go to a hotel on this site

The important question is: How many cars can fit on a half acre of land? :)

The important question is: How many cars can fit on a half acre of land? :)

Ha, perfect! And I'd bet that someone in the OKC Parking Mafia has a database of *exactly* how many can be squeezed into whatever size or shape of lot there is...

Whoever takes control of this parcel of land, I hope they will consider some 'meanwhile' use until they undertake a full-scale development. It is a blight on an otherwise exceptional part of the city. A supersized OKSea would get my vote, but really anything that formalized a pedestrian route between Scissortail and the Myriad would be a start.

As someone who walks between these two parks a handful of times a week, I agree with this sentiment a million percent

Not getting my hopes for anything special, last thing we need in another temporary "green space". It's best use at this point would be , let me dare to say a parking garage, lol.

Bob Howard & Co. do things right. See their many quality projects in Midtown.

It stinks to have that big hole but I'd much rather wait and get a quality, well thought-out development.

I don't know what you could build right now given the market conditions.

the Omni only has the first right to build a hotel on the cox site if the city wants a hotel there ..

they have no ability to block a hotel on this site ...

NOTE: city money can not go to a hotel on this site

Thanks for the assurance info...

My wife and I visited Myriad Gardens yesterday, the whole thing was so beautifully designed. Then I looked at the Scissortail Park direction, I think nothing should block the gorgeous view from Myriad to Scissortail and vice versa, probably another park in this old Ford site is best for both parks and downtown, I know we won’t be able to afford it though. For those who love towers, we still have plenty of empty lands in the Coop site, Strawberry Fields, and the area next to Lower Scissortail Park. I myself think towers are cold, repetitive, and boring, mid-rises are the best.

we'll see but the ford lands are probably the most valuable land in the state - a park or mid-rises probably are not the best use for such valuable land.

don't worry though, they will very likely incorporate greenspace and/or promenade to connect the two parks regardless of what is built.

My non valuable 2 cents on this, mid rise with shopping and restaurants on the lower levels, office as a buffer then mid to high end condos or apartments. I am thinking some people would love to be able to walk to basic shopping/restaurants and then spend time in the park.

Just imagine a massive building gets built the between the two parks in this photo, that would be sad!

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/convention032821b.jpg

Why would that be sad!?

Why would that be sad!?
Same reason as a bunch of humongous skyscrapers that would separate NYC Central Park into two parts, in this case, Myriad would look much smaller because it’d be boxed out. Very sad, especially if it’d boxed out by empty towers.

Same reason as a bunch of humongous skyscrapers that would separate NYC Central Park into two parts, in this case, Myriad would look much smaller because it’d be boxed out. Very sad, especially if it’d boxed out by empty towers.

It's only bad if you're looking at these parks from a drone or the highway. On the ground, where people live, it would likely be great. If it's a good development, it would probably enhance the area, increase vibrancy (making the parks feel safer), and allow for people to do more things. I think a big mixed use project with creative access between the parks is the way to go.

I don't think there will be a threat of much substantial being built here in the near future. When the market has turned around, a building like what WPX built in Tulsa would be good. Nice looking small tower with a huge portal and retail on the bottom.

It's only bad if you're looking at these parks from a drone or the highway. On the ground, where people live, it would likely be great. If it's a good development, it would probably enhance the area, increase vibrancy (making the parks feel safer), and allow for people to do more things. I think a big mixed use project with creative access between the parks is the way to go.

+1

Same reason as a bunch of humongous skyscrapers that would separate NYC Central Park into two parts, in this case, Myriad would look much smaller because it’d be boxed out. Very sad, especially if it’d boxed out by empty towers.

These parks are already permanently separated by a giant ugly expressway. Cant get any worse than that.

Good urban buildings don't block views, they create views.

Just imagine a massive building gets built the between the two parks in this photo, that would be sad!

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/convention032821b.jpg

It wouldn't be sad. It would be different.

Keep in mind this property is split by Harvey.

The city has already indicated they will not allow Harvey to be closed for future development, so an easy and direction connection will remain between the two parks.

Keep in mind this property is split by Harvey.

The city has already indicated they will not allow Harvey to be closed for future development, so an easy and direction connection will remain between the two parks.

as someone that watched all of those planning commission meetings .. i am not sure this is the case ..

the city had the owners apply to close the streets when that was going to be a possible CC location and the planning commission had a fit and that action got delayed over and over and over until it was finially with drawn ..

but the point is that the City was on the side of closing the streets at the time ..

^

That was when they were going to own it and even then they insisted the "Harvey Spine" be left open to pedestrians. It's why the plans for the convention center on that site involved putting the largest room underground.

Since then, they have installed a traffic light on Harvey and the Boulevard, and what will be the Spark Cafe faces that intersection.

Given the fall-out from the owners of this property contesting the city's eminent domain plans, I don't think the city is going to be super excited about just giving them the property presently occupied by Harvey.

I am all in favor of Harvey being closed to vehicles and becoming a pedestrian promenade with outdoor dining and shops and stages and such to connect the parks and flanked by a high-rise on either side.

Yes please

Something similar to Sundance Square in Fort Worth would be perfect for that space.

I am all in favor of Harvey being closed to vehicles and becoming a pedestrian promenade with outdoor dining and shops and stages and such to connect the parks and flanked by a high-rise on either side.

I would totally be on board for that. Great idea!

Reminder that the original plan for the convention center and hotel on this site was to preserve the "Harvey Spine", which in this case meant a pedestrian walkway that would connect the two parks:

https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cc060115b.jpg

I am all in favor of Harvey being closed to vehicles and becoming a pedestrian promenade with outdoor dining and shops and stages and such to connect the parks and flanked by a high-rise on either side.

That's the best use for this property. Highrises with storefront retail on the land, promenade along Harvey connecting the parks!

It's frustrating to see developers just sit on this lot. I was watching the Thunder game and the broadcast showed aerial shots of the Peake and really made the area look a lot more desolate and dead. The taxpayers have dramatically increased the value of the Ford lot through public investments on every side. How much more money will the owners really make by sitting on it longer? And, the owners haven't done hardly anything to make the lot more attractive in the interim. You'd hope the owners would have even just a little civic pride to either make a small investment to spruce up the lot or move forward with a development plan. It seems like that's a fair tradeoff for the profits the city will make them.

If dreams came true, I’d love to see an international competition held for the site!
Here are some designs I think would work.
Valley by MVRDV
16808 16809
1000 Trees by Heatherwick
16810 16811
King Toronto by BIG
16812 16813

One big dis-incentive for the owners of this property to be in a rush to develop it: this coming season the city will pay them $310,000 for Thunder preferred parking.

That's for just 43 games (41 regular, 2 pre-season). Playoff games are billed at $5,600 per.

Combine that with charging for parking for concerts and other events, and they make a ton of money for doing absolutely nothing, with no risk or investment.

They've been getting this pay from the city for the last 9 years and I'm sure it will continue well into the future.

One big dis-incentive for the owners of this property to be in a rush to develop it: this coming season the city will pay them $310,000 for Thunder preferred parking.

That's for just 43 games (41 regular, 2 pre-season). Playoff games are billed at $5,600 per.

Combine that with charging for parking for concerts and other events, and they make a ton of money for doing absolutely nothing, with no risk or investment.

They've been getting this pay from the city for the last 9 years and I'm sure it will continue well into the future.

I wish they'd do something to activate it. can you imagine Bleu Garten or The Yard on this spot after a Thunder game? Especially with Scissortail, Thunder Alley, and Omni all happening, I truly believe there is higher, better, and more profitable temporary uses than parking.

Yeah, it stopped being a car dealership a long time ago.

If this is going to continue to be used for parking, why not make a parking garage with ground floor retail?

I mean makes sense, and it gives us something...

They could actually make a mixed used a development with housing, retail, and a parking garage. And they can still sell so many parking spaces to the city for Thunder games, etc.

^^^ All of that would cost them money to implement, and as Pete said, if they can make tons of money by keeping the status quo/surface lots and doing nothing, none of the above will happen.

Yes, paid parking is a pandemic in basically every urban core. This is why city's need to have standards to which the parking is to be kept, or limits on how long it can be parking etc.

Look at all the random lots in Bricktown and Midtown that were essentially worthless even as little as 10 years ago. Now they pull regular daily parking revenue plus event parking and now weekend up-tick parking. It is almost all profit with barebone overhead. You have what, property taxes, maybe some electric and plumbing depending on if there is a structure. Then you have maybe some parking attendant or two that you need to pay maybe $200 for an event day?

Cities enable this with no restrictions or standards. And apparently for this particular lot, with the info Pete gave. The city is actually not only enabling, but also incentivizing no development on this block.

Bare minimum would be the city requiring the lots to not look like trash as they do now, but even that is a faint hope.

Why not a minimum standard as to surface conditions, landscaping, lighting, cleanliness, etc. ?

We need that taxing by land use system that's been mentioned before (e.g. the higher the use, the lower the property taxes; the lower the use, the higher the taxes). Unfortunately that's probably a county-level thing vs city-level, and I don't see the county passing such a thing.

1702517026

They're rebuilding the sidewalks on Harvey

^

Will make it easier to move between Scissortail Park and the Myriad Gardens.

Easy access between the two parks should and needs to be an integral part of whatever happens at the DF site. I'd hate to see something developed and it really close off access between the parks

Are there any plans on activating the stoplights on Harvey & OKC? At least have them setup to be manually activated by people wanting to walk across OKC?