So now that we've moved on from the Convention Center, let's be real here:

Does REHCO have the resources to do this lot justice? They seem to be high-quality developers, but being the best developer in the world does you no good on this lot if you can't get ahold of more than $100M.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say they can't get more than $100M. They don't have to develop the whole property at once. What if they built a 20 story tower on one corner, and then sold it. And then they used that money to build another, etc?

You mean Rainey Williams' definition of world class development...

You mean Rainey Williams' definition of world class development...

And if you don't believe he can pull it off...then well you don't know Rainey Williams.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of this site ends up being massive parking garage for Chesapeake Energy Arena.

At the risk if being gauche...for the record, we are talking about individuals who wouldn't even have to borrow $100 million if they chose to self-finance. Funding isn't an issue.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of this site ends up being massive parking garage for Chesapeake Energy Arena.

Why in the world would Chesapeake Arena need a giant parking garage when it has functioned just fine without one for almost 15 years?

well, in all fairness - isn't the lot functioning as a parking lot for Chesapeake arena today?

they must have too much money to know what to do with it then. just sayin'.

At the risk if being gauche...for the record, we are talking about individuals who wouldn't even have to borrow $100 million if they chose to self-finance. Funding isn't an issue.

Nobody with that kind of wealth bets it all on a singular development. The question remains simply based on the fact that aside from Devon, we've yet to see a recent (this century) private development take place downtown that was valued at >$100M.

There's no question whether these people have resources, however, it could easily be argued this site deserves $1B worth of development, and I highly suspect these developers don't have that in their back pocket. I readily admit, it's not my money etc etc….But in my opinion, anything less than $600M of development on this site is selling OKC short, and anything less than $300M on this site is an embarrassment.

To those thinking this will be parking, that seems pretty pessimistic. Nothing about the history of these developers would indicate that they would only build a parking garage.

I highly doubt that's a possibility here. I imagine we're sure to get a mixed-use development of some sort on this property.

I agree that it seems pessimistic to equate OKC's recent success/failure rate with large CBD "mystery tower" projects to this site which involves totally different developers/investors. On this site you actually have vested interests with a proven track record. That said, we screwed up in not needing to see a proven track record before we demo'd Stage Center. We didn't insist on high standards (beyond predominantly parking uses) before we allowed demo of our historic Main Street.

When your community is used to negative development experiences, it makes it harder to do good development. OKC should be saying no to bad development for the sake of its good development, because at the end of the day, we are dangerously close to getting all of the bad before any of the good can happen. There is no strategy that I can see and not much happening with the CBD that instills much confidence. Luckily areas outside the CBD are another story, but we really did screw up (in 2015 even) with out CBD, and this pessimism and lack of community ethos is just the resultant factor.


Why in the world would Chesapeake Arena need a giant parking garage when it has functioned just fine without one for almost 15 years?

I don't get this logic, because why does anything need a giant parking garage when it functions just fine without one right now? And yet we are tearing down or historic Main Street for new garages left and right and ripping out new bike lanes on Walker to widen it to 4 lanes to serve all the parking garages.

If there's one thing that holds true is that a parking garage is always needed, always highest and best use (in OKC), and always wins in the end.

Nobody with that kind of wealth bets it all on a singular development. The question remains simply based on the fact that aside from Devon, we've yet to see a recent (this century) private development take place downtown that was valued at >$100M....

Where did I say ANYTHING to that effect? Where did I suggest that they WOULD self-finance? There were multiple comments questioning whether they could even get their hands on money; I only said that money was no problem whatsoever here. They can get any amount desired.

You are twisting my comments into something they are not. Stop it.

The question remains simply based on the fact that aside from Devon, we've yet to see a recent (this century) private development take place downtown that was valued at >$100M.

Actually, the SandRidge redevelopment was valued at $100 million. I can see that with the Braniff and Parkside buildings along with the main tower improvements.

That development also took $15 million in historic preservation rehab off the table (including over $5 million in tax credits that can't go into just any project downtown), with the KerrMac and India Temple demolitions. Probably would have been 75-ish units altogether.

Where did I say ANYTHING to that effect? Where did I suggest that they WOULD self-finance? There were multiple comments questioning whether they could even get their hands on money; I only said that money was no problem whatsoever here. They can get any amount desired.

You are twisting my comments into something they are not. Stop it.

Man, I'm not twisting your words, I'm simply responding to them. I'm not implying you believe that, but perhaps not every bloke that comes across this thread is going to understand that.

The owners of the site have done great things for OKC and have shown capacity for high quality development. I'm just trying to "set the stage" as it were as to what should be expected on this site. And while I certainly believe they have the capacity to tap into lots of money, assuming an entirely private entity that has never proved their capacity to whip out $600M from their (and more realistically their lenders') pocket(s) is going to do so here seems to me more optimistic than calculating.

I guess I'm bringing all this up to avoid any accusation that potential future complaints about a project are strictly reactionary and nit-picky. And sure, it's hubris and overly self-important on my end, but I'm on an internet forum and this is my only good avenue to publicly dream about these blocks. I'm dreaming of an incredibly substantial development because I think it's fair as a citizen of this community to want what is best for it.

I trust Hall and Howard more than I trust any other entity in OKC, so I'm hopeful. But as Spartan said, it's hard not to be cautionary with CBD development.

I think most "blokes" who come across this thread understand that if someone has personal resources north of $100 million they also have the capacity to borrow the same amount of money (and more) on a qualifying project. There were a number of questions upthread about their ability to get their hands on that type of money. I responded to those questions, and made it clear that getting that level of funding is not a problem for these developers. Nothing more, nothing less. If you desire to turn that discussion into some other type of exercise obviously I am powerless to stop you.

They filed plans to convert one of the parcels where they had recently demolished the last building to parking.

The application described it as a "4-year temporary lot". Sound like there are no immediate development plans for this property.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehcoparking3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehcoparking1a.jpg

Seems like that is always the case with these guys. They go at their own pace...

In fairness, they have done and are doing lots of other things in the core right now.

Not the best time to try and pull off a project of this scale and I'd rather they wait and do it right. Would be be the largest private downtown development ever, at least in terms of property size.

The site is actually on the south side of SW 2nd between Harvey and Robinson not as highlighted on the map.

The site is actually on the south side of SW 2nd between Harvey and Robinson not as highlighted on the map.

Thanks for the correction. The site plan they had included in their application had the orientation flipped.

The image is now correct.

They've got some serious fundraising/partnerships to take care of over the next 2 to 3 years if they want to turn this into what the lot merits.

I'd be disappointed if any less than $500M is invested into these 6 blocks, and it really deserves close to $1B. Between this, the Cox site, and the Stage Center site, OKC should probably see about $2.5B of development...and it's worth waiting to get there and not "cheap out" out at $250M developments. I know it's a lot of money...but it's also not. Not for what could become one of the most important urban areas in the entire region.

They've got some serious fundraising/partnerships to take care of over the next 2 to 3 years if they want to turn this into what the lot merits.

I'd be disappointed if any less than $500M is invested into these 6 blocks, and it really deserves close to $1B. Between this, the Cox site, and the Stage Center site, OKC should probably see about $2.5B of development...and it's worth waiting to get there and not "cheap out" out at $250M developments. I know it's a lot of money...but it's also not. Not for what could become one of the most important urban areas in the entire region.

I agree with this.

Something like the Steelyard would be perfect on that site in my opinion. It needs to be a little more mixed use than the Metropolitan but needs to incorporate retail and housing and also needs to be designed in a way to bridge the MBG with the new park

At least nothing is being demolished for this surface lot.

Everything this group has done has been very nice, well though-out and in alliance with urban planning principles.

Happy to be patient while they get this right.

I agree with this.

Something like the Steelyard would be perfect on that site in my opinion. It needs to be a little more mixed use than the Metropolitan but needs to incorporate retail and housing and also needs to be designed in a way to bridge the MBG with the new park

At least nothing is being demolished for this surface lot.

I would be very disappointed with something like the Steelyard on this site. This site should have at least 2 buildings well over 10 stories (and 2+ specifically because this needs to not be a monstorous superblock type development. )...If there's a "skyscraper" (in this case 30+ stories, 350+ feet) great, but not necessary...not so obsessed with something super tall. I do think a hotel that rivals the Convention Hotel given the proximity to the convention center (and the hope to someday host the NBA All-Star game) should be part of this site, and definitely some mid-rise to high-rise residential. There obviously needs to be plenty of restaurant and retail, and probably even some sort of entertainment, and having a sort of central focal point in the middle of this development that also has a path between the MBG and the MAPS Park.

To me, in an ideal world you have:

1. 15-25 story hotel (At least 350+ rooms)
2. At least 200k square feet of office space
3. At least 20-50 condos
4. At least 150-200 apartments
5. At least 35k square feet of retail/restaurant space. (That's two Fassler Hall buildings worth)
6. Needs to have some sort of niche attraction/entertainment.
7. All of that necessitates at least 600 parking spaces.

All of that, to me, is pretty well bare minimum. I acknowledge again that it's not my money nor my property, but those numbers are some 20% - 40% lower than what I think this city can support.

I have no doubt that these guys can do it correctly. I'm glad to see that they are planning on the parking lot being there for (at least) 4 years (I assume the earliest they'd announce anything is early 2019). That being said, pulling off something like the above without significant subsidy would be a private development (non Fortune 500) unlike anything this state has seen.

Four years isn't that long at all when you consider that the Convention Center won't be completed until 2020 at the earliest and were looking at three years before the north central park is completed. Makes sense that they would want to wait until these two projects were completed to see how they affect market demand.

Totally agree with Teo, Steelyard (with signifnicantly more ground retail frontage and more height/units) could be on a very small portion of the site, say the SW near the park. But the majority of the site needs to be a continuum of the CBD - which means highrise with retail on the bottom.

This is a great opportunity to develop a new commercial grand street the likes OKC had back when Main Street was the top dog. If this is their plan, then I am happy to have what is now the largest parking crater in the nation (perhaps?), IF they agree to develop it piece by piece while remembering this IS THE CBD. Otherwise, I wish they would sell the lots closest to the arena (retain the far south west lot for the Steelyard V2 bigger bro idea for themselves to develop), and hopefully sell the rest to developers who can make the highrises happen - again, piece by piece.

We don't need any more super blocks or superblock development in the CBD and that includes the COX redevelopment - we need both parcels to be developed as organically as possible with CBD characteristics!!

I think OKC has grown up from thinking we need to have large swaths of land for CBD development to be viable. This is why I always call for OKC to develop Master Plans for the inner core - Highrise is how you develop in the CBD on small lots; and when you control a huge parcel then you still develop each individual highrise but one at a time to make sure everything is viable with a shared vision for the entire parcel.

Thread revive.... Anything new happening here?

Nope.

We are likely years away from anything moving forward on this site.

Nope.

We are likely years away from anything moving forward on this site.

Why sit on prime real estate, maybe in the best in OKC, like this? They know what's coming. Why not get the development started to coincide with the opening of the park?

Why sit on prime real estate, maybe in the best in OKC, like this? They know what's coming. Why not get the development started to coincide with the opening of the park?

Maybe they are holding out in hopes to be the new arena site ?

The more Myriad/Scissortail news I see, the more concerned I am about the vacant lot in between them. Steve said in his chat today that Howard is still years away from acting on that land...

The more Myriad/Scissortail news I see, the more concerned I am about the vacant lot in between them. Steve said in his chat today that Howard is still years away from acting on that land...

Don't let your mind worry. The owner of the land has a good history in OKC, and does care that it get developed the right way.

Don't let your mind worry. The owner of the land has a good history in OKC, and does care that it get developed the right way.

I think the bigger worry is the amount of time it is going to take before they bother to do anything with the land. It would put a lot of people at ease if they had a plan in place that would be in the works to finish in late 2020 early 2021.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that property remain vacant for quite a while and not just because MidtownR is methodical and seems to have no clear plan here.

But because what type of commercial development would would be viable in the near future?

Hotel? There are tons of them all over downtown, a bunch more coming and 2 new heavily subsidized nearby properties (Omni and First National) set to bring tons more rooms onto the market.

Office? Way overbuilt right now in downtown and not being absorbed quickly at all.

Retail / restaurants? Only as part of a much larger development.

Condos? Bob Howard has said many times he doesn't want to build for-sale housing.

Apartments? Maybe, but that's a huge piece of property in a key area to waste on just apartments.


Also, Howard & Co, make good money off parking and that property was paid for a long time ago.

I could see the waiting being 10+ years rather than 2 or 3.

If they wait that long it might end up being the replacement arena site :-P

I wouldn't be surprised to see that property remain vacant for quite a while and not just because MidtownR is methodical and seems to have no clear plan here.

But because what type of commercial development would would be viable in the near future?

Hotel? There are tons of them all over downtown, a bunch more coming and 2 new heavily subsidized nearby properties (Omni and First National) set to bring tons more rooms onto the market.

Office? Way overbuilt right now in downtown and not being absorbed quickly at all.

Retail / restaurants? Only as part of a much larger development.

Condos? Bob Howard has said many times he doesn't want to build for-sale housing.

Apartments? Maybe, but that's a huge piece of property in a key area to waste on just apartments.


Also, Howard & Co, make good money off parking and that property was paid for a long time ago.

I could see the waiting being 10+ years rather than 2 or 3.

You also have the Cox convention center opening up for redevelopment in 3 years when the new one is finished. That, to me, is the single biggest redevelopment site in OKC next to the transit center and in between the CBD, Bricktown, Myriad Gardens and CHK Arena. Restoring the street grid and doing a Denver Union Station-like redevelopment would be amazing.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that property remain vacant for quite a while and not just because MidtownR is methodical and seems to have no clear plan here.

But because what type of commercial development would would be viable in the near future?

Hotel? There are tons of them all over downtown, a bunch more coming and 2 new heavily subsidized nearby properties (Omni and First National) set to bring tons more rooms onto the market.

Office? Way overbuilt right now in downtown and not being absorbed quickly at all.

Retail / restaurants? Only as part of a much larger development.

Condos? Bob Howard has said many times he doesn't want to build for-sale housing.

Apartments? Maybe, but that's a huge piece of property in a key area to waste on just apartments.


Also, Howard & Co, make good money off parking and that property was paid for a long time ago.

I could see the waiting being 10+ years rather than 2 or 3.
Agree that it could potentially be that long, and I don't for a moment see it as a bad thing. I would rather have the RIGHT thing appear there even if it takes longer to materialize. The rush to have stuff filled out no matter what is not good strategy IMO. Examples of the highest and best use coming after an interminable wait abound in downtown at this point. 21c/West Village, Steelyard, First National Center and even the Skirvin took years and even decades to find the right purpose and the right owners/developers. This is a very important piece of property. I'd rather see it be parking for a few years and something amazing after than than be something mediocre tomorrow.

I personally wouldn't mind it being another park. That way there's continuous park from the Myriads all the way to the river. That being said, it would kind of be a waste of land. Something that would be nice is to have some food truck parking there for people going to both of the parks.

Would be a good location for weekend European style flea market and art market for local artists. Include food trucks and there is still room for parking. It might be a great magnet to bring even more people downtown on the weekends. These are great activity centers in many European cities of all sizes.

Those would both be outstanding temporary uses of the property. And by temporary I mean it could be a few years' time until the highest and best use comes into focus. It might help to remember that REHCO is the same group that - while they were developing real actual mixed-use elsewhere in the district - converted several other of their properties into things like BleuGarten (yes, it is temporary but nobody thinks of it as a blight or is in a pants-afire hurry to see it built out). They also donated empty lot space for the Midtown dog park AND they lease the space next to BleuGarten for the Holiday Pop-Up Shops and Industry Flea.

The highest and best use of this piece of property probably involves some combination of high rise, housing, hospitality/mixed use. But it might be a bit before we see that.

I get the 10 plus years possibly (even though I hate it). I get keeping it a parking lot (even though I hate it). In the end they're gonna make money hand over fist off this deal whether they like it or not.My question is, will they try to spruce up the property. With everything going on around this property, the least they could do is spend a minimal amount of money to spruce up the place. Look at the difference the parking lot in bricktown made with a small beautification project.

I've been a vocal proponent of this and the Cox site not being redeveloped until 2025/2030 because we simply need more time to build the OKC brand. They constitute some of the most valuable land in the region and doing them right is the difference between leaving an indelible impression on visitors and have just another city.

I do think they could find some temporary uses outside of parking for some of the spaces...in fact they already have even in that area with the basketball court. When Scissortail Park is finished, I hope they put something in that invites pedestrians to move freely from MBG to SP. Maybe a place for some Food *Carts* which we could certainly use more of in OKC. Opportunities for an open-air Art Display that feature mainstay sculpture works and also purchasable art.

Reminder the Ford dealership has been closed now for almost a decade, a time of unprecedented downtown growth.

The owners clearly aren't in any hurry.

I've been a vocal proponent of this and the Cox site not being redeveloped until 2025/2030 because we simply need more time to build the OKC brand. They constitute some of the most valuable land in the region and doing them right is the difference between leaving an indelible impression on visitors and have just another city.

I do think they could find some temporary uses outside of parking for some of the spaces...in fact they already have even in that area with the basketball court. When Scissortail Park is finished, I hope they put something in that invites pedestrians to move freely from MBG to SP. Maybe a place for some Food *Carts* which we could certainly use more of in OKC. Opportunities for an open-air Art Display that feature mainstay sculpture works and also purchasable art.
Great point about the basketball courts. That was of course spearheaded by the Downtown OKC Partnership (then Downtown OKC, Inc), but that is the FOURTH temporary activation on land owned by these developers that has been pointed out. So it’s not like they are absentee slumlords. They are thoughtful and strategic redevelopers. Again, if they have a long play here that doesn’t involve immediate development I would expect to see them work to mitigate the current appearance issues and possibly allow for temporary activation in the interim, especially considering proximity to the park(s), arena and CC.

^

That property is nothing but a sea of asphalt used for parking for the landlord's benefit for over 8 years.

The basketball court is a tiny sliver of that (.14 acres of over 18).

There are no current plans to improve that property and there doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon.


Let's keep things in perspective here.

The city should shut down Harvey between the two parks and use the ROW as a pocket park/pedestrian corridor

The city should shut down Harvey between the two parks and use the ROW as a pocket park/pedestrian corridor

Excellent idea. Harvey really serves no purpose there.

^

That property is nothing but a sea of asphalt used for parking for the landlord's benefit for over 8 years.

The basketball court is a tiny sliver of that (.14 acres of over 18).

There are no current plans to improve that property and there doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon.


Let's keep things in perspective here.

I believe I absolutely AM keeping things in perspective. I am suggesting that being a Chicken Little is NOT doing so.

The land has been surface parking for eight years because it made sense as such. Eventually it will make sense as something much greater. As has been pointed out it probably currently has as much or more potential than any land in the state.

Rushing to put something - ANYTHING AT ALL PLEASE GET SOMETHING ON THIS SPOT OH MY GOD THE OWNERS ARE MAKING MONEY ON PARKING - is lunging. This spot deserves better than lunging.

If temporary activation other than parking makes sense at the time the CC and park come online, I would guess these owners would consider it, based upon their well-documented history. If/when it makes sense to move forward with whatever the permanent use is determined to be, they have the means and they have demonstrable experience.

Rushing to put something - ANYTHING AT ALL PLEASE GET SOMETHING ON THIS SPOT OH MY GOD THE OWNERS ARE MAKING MONEY ON PARKING.

Strawman, as no one has said anything remotely close.


Reminder that the owners fought tooth and nail not to let the city acquire this property for the convention center, taking them to court.

They also refuse to sell any of their properties (and Bob Howard has said he absolutely will not consider that) and they own a ton that remain un- or under-developed throughout the urban core. They also recently chose to move a huge business out of the core to the far north side of town creating much more vacant property with no real plan to develop it.


Everyone wants something great at this location but considering this ownership group has been sitting on it and a bunch of other properties for a long time and tends to move very slowly -- and has never come close to developing anything on this scale -- people are right to be concerned that this spot could sit vacant for quite a while. It already has.

Yes, this land is too important settle for a fast, less than ideal development. It needs to be done right. Luckily, the owners realize that.

One thing I have noticed in other cities is usually there is some sort of outdoor mall or pedestrian oriented retail zone close to their convention center/convention hotel.

The owners didn’t fight tooth and nail at all. They used the correct ed process (that the city was fine with until they realized the price) to get the actually value of their property. They were 100% ok with selling the land to the city. Just not for any discount. Which is what good business owners do.

This property is going t be developed once in the next what 70 years. They need to do it “right”. They have owned the property for what 100 years. Looking mostly at I40 and before a run down part or the city. They don’t “owe” a speedy development to anyone.

Oh how soon people forget...

REHCO made the city take them to court and knew darn well they would not be willing or able to pay a price as set by court-appointed appraisers. The land budget ($13MM) was spelled out in public MAPS 3 documents.

Also, REHCO was trying to get the city to make a swap for the Cox Convention site.

Things got so bad REHCO issued subpoenas and requests for all documents related to the convention center and hotel and then demanded $100 million for that site, a number way beyond anything that would be recommended by independent parties.

The whole thing was very contentious and in the end, the city withdrew their eminent domain proceeding -- after spending lots of planning money on that site -- at the last minute before they would be obligated to pay what the court manadated and focused.

Then, in a scramble, went back to the current site.

Took this today of this property and you can see the area fronting the boulevard has been sodded.

I believe that is still considered city/odot property.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco062318b.jpg

Strawman, as no one has said anything remotely close...

Uh, I think my all caps made it quite obvious that was an exaggeration, but it is certainly the tone of many of these recent posts. The fact of the matter is that this is some of the most valuable and important property in the state of Oklahoma, and the owners of this property came to own it through fair, legal and honorable means. They of course are benefiting from the nearby location of public infrastructure (they also have been and continue to be inconvenienced by a decade+ of adjacent demolition and construction), but fair is fair. They have zero obligation to sell it below what it is worth or to develop it on any timeline other than their own.

They have a civic obligation of course to make sure that when they develop this land it does not detract from its surroundings, and I believe these owners will take that further and make sure it is the highest and best use, in part because they are good corporate citizens and in part because they are excellent businessmen.

I think the city should wait to demo the cox site and keep using it until the ford site is developed. Unless they have a sure-fire highest-use solidly-financed proposal for the site that will start construction immediate after demo. if they are both vacant/flat at the same time it will terrible from the gardens with 2.5 of 4 sides undeveloped.

I've been a vocal proponent of this and the Cox site not being redeveloped until 2025/2030 because we simply need more time to build the OKC brand. They constitute some of the most valuable land in the region and doing them right is the difference between leaving an indelible impression on visitors and have just another city.

I do think they could find some temporary uses outside of parking for some of the spaces...in fact they already have even in that area with the basketball court. When Scissortail Park is finished, I hope they put something in that invites pedestrians to move freely from MBG to SP. Maybe a place for some Food *Carts* which we could certainly use more of in OKC. Opportunities for an open-air Art Display that feature mainstay sculpture works and also purchasable art.

Just a few years ago, for a couple of years they tried to have a Country music fest, but with it being hotter than hell on asphalt, they couldn't make it go.

They didn’t “make the city take them to court”. The city choose to pursue ED on the site. Because the owners didn’t agree to their price. Period. They thought their land was worth more than the city was offering them. And guess what they were correct

If it turns out to be done right and the city keeps crime away and people feel safe at the new park, it has the potential to change the complexjon of the entire downtown. If the park is seen as the "place to be," new housing and businesses will spring up in that entire area - even to the river and across, the Wheeler Ditrict and the Airpark development.

It may not be until this happens that some of these parcels become developed. These people own the land and its their right to develop them. Now if they also own other parcels elsewhere that could be used in a worthwhile development and start playing holdout- for-more simply because they can, thats a different story.

Took this today of this property and you can see the area fronting the boulevard has been sodded.

I believe that is still considered city/odot property.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco062318b.jpg

It's going to be a total mess if there are no improvements in the next 18 months, but honestly, even just repaving the existing lots would go a long way, IMO.