If I owned that property I'd wait to see how everything shakes out with the convention center, Central Park, boulevard, etc. Then I'd make my development decisions.

If things go according to plan, this is arguably the best piece of property in all of OKC, downtown or otherwise. Large, contiguous tract with the massively improved Myriad Gardens to the north, right next door to a remodeled arena, frontage on the new boulevard and right across the street from Central Park -- and probably the convention center.

A combination of high-rise hotel, condos and some retail will probably end up being the highest and best use. Let's hope the developers are willing to go big. If any site can justify it, it's this one.

My Downtown Ford Site Timeline Prediction:

May 2011: Ford Site Not Selected As Convention Center Site
August 2011: Announcement of how Ford Site will be redeveloped
November 2011: Plans released on how Ford Site will be redeveloped
April 2012: Groundbreaking for new development at Ford Site
Aug 2013: Construction Complete

G.Walker - you better make that completion date Aug 2015. If they can build what ever they are going to build in 12 months it will be a disappointment. A house takes 4 to7 months.

Kerry, one can do a lot in 18 months...look how far along Devon Tower has progressed in just 17 months? And I am positive whatever is planned for the Ford site will not be even half of what Devon is.

Two words: Whole Foods.

I'm with Kerry, GW, with that timeline, it definitely won't be highest and best use. Just think, Devon will take nearly 3 years start to finish. We want at least 2 towers on that site, plus mixed use.

I honestly don't think we will get two towers on that site, it would be nice, but I doubt it...lets come back down to reality, I see probably 10 story condo with ground level retail, and adjacent 15 story hotel with parking garage.

Something more on the lines like this:

http://www.condo-living-west.com/toblog/images/courtyard-oakville-exterior.jpg

Not this:

http://www.vow2.com/library/images/reml/user/1/04ab040cf49a7e0cd83943c40270a914.jpg

I honestly don't think we will get two towers on that site, it would be nice, but I doubt it...lets come back down to reality, I see probably 10 story condo with ground level retail, and adjacent 15 story hotel with parking garage.

That is still two towers.

You have mid-rise, high-rise, tower, skyscraper...everybody has their different interpretations, when I think of tower, I think of at least 20+ stories...I guess we will know soon...to me, anything is better than nothing....

I think ideally you would want a 250-500 room full service "event" hotel on the 4 star level (can we convince Charlie Givens to bring a ZaZa here to his hometown) with large common areas for gathering, but not necessarily convention space. Add to that a 15-20 story upscale residence tower with bottom 10 floors for lease and top 10 for purchase. Tie it together with business plaza of upscale restaurants, personal service companies (hair dressers, cleaners, tailors, etc.), and put 2 story center of clubs, restaurants, shops between that and the Ford Center.

I've been involved with several Ritz Carton projects which combine an upscale hotel with upscale condos and they sell out quickly. I don't think we will yet be on Ritz's radar, but we could have our own "Ritz Lite" project and make it work. I just recently worked on the LA Live project next to the Staples Center and it is pretty cool.

If I owned that property I'd wait to see how everything shakes out with the convention center, Central Park, boulevard, etc. Then I'd make my development decisions.

If things go according to plan, this is arguably the best piece of property in all of OKC, downtown or otherwise. Large, contiguous tract with the massively improved Myriad Gardens to the north, right next door to a remodeled arena, frontage on the new boulevard and right across the street from Central Park -- and probably the convention center.

A combination of high-rise hotel, condos and some retail will probably end up being the highest and best use. Let's hope the developers are willing to go big. If any site can justify it, it's this one.


Kerry, I bet this is exactly what happens. How big it goes will completely depend on what surrounds it and how solid the market demand is for that area for that particular use.

My Downtown Ford Site Timeline Prediction:

May 2011: Ford Site Not Selected As Convention Center Site
August 2011: Announcement of how Ford Site will be redeveloped
November 2011: Plans released on how Ford Site will be redeveloped
April 2012: Groundbreaking for new development at Ford Site
Aug 2013: Construction Complete

That's not going to happen. G Walker...you don't want this to happen. With the market/economy today, you want them to delay plans for awhile. Also, that site will almost assuredly be built in phases. I think a 10 year horizon for it to be fully developed is more appropriate and very prudent. The LAST thing you want is developing too fast and with things that aren't good for that site long-term.

I dont think we will see multiple towers. Im not sure we will even see one. There isnt much of a market for them. Maybe somethng that is 5-6 stories but I dont see much more. I guess they do have the advantage of not having to pay high land acquisition costs but I just dont see any residential over 10 stories happening in OKC anytime soon. Last years ULI panel said the same.

Heck, even a high rise hotel wont happen without a private/public partnership. Its so incredibly expensive to build up.

We have 22% population growth in the urban core. Downtown OKC is the fastest growing residential area in the State. Demand for rental is there and a tower will make a nice condo conversion in 10 years.

The Central Park area will also become very desirable; I'm with Kerry, demand is there.

The Central Park area will also become very desirable; I'm with Kerry, demand is there.

I don't even live in the State and I am trying to talk the wife into moving back and living downtown.

I honestly don't think we will get two towers on that site, it would be nice, but I doubt it...lets come back down to reality, I see probably 10 story condo with ground level retail, and adjacent 15 story hotel with parking garage.

I would call this my wildest hopes (within reason) for downtown OKC.

The demand is there, and that being the best piece of real estate in Oklahoma City makes it even better. If a 10 story hotel/convention center work in Norman.

http://www.bradenton.com/2011/03/09/3019596/embassy-suites-norman-in-oklahoma.html

I am sure downtown OKC can support a 20 story hotel, next to Arena, Central Park, and Myriad Gardens. Now condos, that's a different issue, the best bet would be for Bob and Fred to make that site for convention center hotel...with adjacent office mid-rise and parking garage...let Deep Deuce, Midtown, and new central park area absorb condo/apartment development...

My Proposal:

15 Story Class A Office Building
20 Story Hotel

both would use same 7 level parking garage...

Phase I: build parking garage first, followed by hotel
Phase II: build office building, securing a tenant who would occupy at least 40%, and with all companies wanting to move downtown, don't see this as a problem

Budget: $85M

If they build a 10 story or 15 story building on that site it will shade the Myriad Gardens Crystal Bridge. This would not be good for the newly renovated gardens!

The demand is there, and that being the best piece of real estate in Oklahoma City makes it even better. If a 10 story hotel/convention center work in Norman.

http://www.bradenton.com/2011/03/09/3019596/embassy-suites-norman-in-oklahoma.html

I am sure downtown OKC can support a 20 story hotel, next to Arena, Central Park, and Myriad Gardens. Now condos, that's a different issue, the best bet would be for Bob and Fred to make that site for convention center hotel...with adjacent office mid-rise and parking garage...let Deep Deuce, Midtown, and new central park area absorb condo/apartment development...

My Proposal:

15 Story Class A Office Building
20 Story Hotel

both would use same 7 level parking garage...

Phase I: build parking garage first, followed by hotel
Phase II: build office building, securing a tenant who would occupy at least 40%, and with all companies wanting to move downtown, don't see this as a problem

Budget: $85M

I think that the site is an incredible opportunity to pursue some heavy duty downtown retail for once. I think that if the project had a mixed-use nature, retail and residential, that makes it the likeliest to sign certain brands to come to downtown--the rooftops right above will be a major selling point. Ultimately, the point of mixed-uses also isn't to have specialized districts--commercial in downtown, residential in Deep Deuce, entertainment in Bricktown. That's a zoning apartheid. It all needs to be mixed, and above all, Bricktown and downtown need to start seeing some actual residential for a change--that's what will pump real vitality (that is constant) into the core and into Bricktown. I think having the Myriad Gardens surrounded by mixed-use on all sides would be a great opportunity to finally, for the first time ever, really take advantage of that particular asset.

If they build a 10 story or 15 story building on that site it will shade the Myriad Gardens Crystal Bridge. This would not be good for the newly renovated gardens!

Any buildings built on the N. or S. side of the gardens will have ZERO effect on the plants outside or the ones inside the Crystal tube.

Actually the position of the sun over OKC is heavily affected by Oklahoma's location in this thing called the "Northern Hemisphere."

But you know that!

Not all plants require, or can tolerate, full sun. Consistent and dependable shade in parts of the park would actually allow for a greater variety of plants.

I know this would be very ambitious but I'd love to see something like the new Ritz Carlton in downtown L.A. where floors 1-26 are the hotel and 27-52 are residences. The condo owners also get to use the athletic facilities, concierge, and other amenities.

http://www.ritzcarlton.com/NR/rdonlyres/23AE1803-659C-41FE-B7B5-9430F47DEF09/0/NEW_LALive11_crop.jpg

I know this would be very ambitious but I'd love to see something like the new Ritz Carlton in downtown L.A. where floors 1-26 are the hotel and 27-52 are residences. The condo owners also get to use the athletic facilities, concierge, and other amenities.

http://www.ritzcarlton.com/NR/rdonlyres/23AE1803-659C-41FE-B7B5-9430F47DEF09/0/NEW_LALive11_crop.jpg

I was involved in this project in both the condo development and the hotel. As I mentioned a few posts up, we could have our own version with Charlie Given's group doing a ZaZa and coupling it with a condo/for rent tower. It could even be called OK Live. The site sets up very much like LA Live in its proximity to downtown and the arena, just like LA Live and Staples Center. If you swing that picture around you see downtown LA high rises start just to the North. It has spurred several renovations and condo conversions close by. It took a slummy area and made it cool

It all needs to be mixed, and above all, Bricktown and downtown need to start seeing some actual residential for a change--that's what will pump real vitality (that is constant) into the core and into Bricktown.

Do you think we'll ever see apartments in Bricktown at this point?

Rover, Hyatt would be an obvious hotelier as they love downtowns near convention centers and there isn't one yet in OKC.

However, I don't think that an LA Live type of development is the answer, as Bricktown largely fills that purpose already. A beautiful, upscale hotel with condos above fronting both huge parks, within the CBD and immediately adjacent to the arena and convention center could work. It's really the only place in OKC right now where this type of development might come off.

Think we can get AEG involved? ;)

Haven't really followed this thread lately, but I just got back from doing video. I actually ran into metro at the old Ford site. I got a little bit of video there, then it dawned on me that it's nothing but dirt now. Nothing at all there now. I'm sure somebody already mentioned that a few posts ago.

Rover, Hyatt would be an obvious hotelier as they love downtowns near convention centers and there isn't one yet in OKC.

However, I don't think that an LA Live type of development is the answer, as Bricktown largely fills that purpose already. A beautiful, upscale hotel with condos above fronting both huge parks, within the CBD and immediately adjacent to the arena and convention center could work. It's really the only place in OKC right now where this type of development might come off.

Think we can get AEG involved? ;)

Yes, we did the San Antonio Hyatt project. Most likely though it will be more like the Dallas Convention Hotel put together by the city and a a franchise brand is found (was also involved in that - as a supplier). That seems to be the way of the convention hotels these days. Marriott or Hyatt would probably just be a franchise and the developer someone else.

I mentioned ZaZa because of the local connection with Givens. He is active again in the city. I mentioned an "event" hotel rather than convention hotel because it would require less meeting space and probably be more feasible there from a viability standpoint. The current hotel by the Ford Center isn't really a good gathering hotel. It is basic and OK, but not appropriate. The rooms even have through the wall air conditioning...cheap and appears so. By the gardens needs a quality project.

I know AEG has done convention centers, but I think all out of the country. They would seemingly be a good fit if they had the as yet to be named arena and the convention center both. They have facilities in cities our size and area - Sprint Center in Kansas City, FedEx in Memphis and others. Interesting idea. I hope the city has reached out to them. Maybe we could build a really nice pro soccer stadium at the old Cotton mill and have them involved in that too.

Haven't really followed this thread lately, but I just got back from doing video. I actually ran into metro at the old Ford site. I got a little bit of video there, then it dawned on me that it's nothing but dirt now. Nothing at all there now. I'm sure somebody already mentioned that a few posts ago.

Yep, good meeting you as well. I took a few pics since you were taking video. I will try to upload them tomorrow.

We have 22% population growth in the urban core. Downtown OKC is the fastest growing residential area in the State. Demand for rental is there and a tower will make a nice condo conversion in 10 years.

There may be lots of population growth but most of it is coming from reasonable priced apartments. You do realize a highrise apartment buildings rent would begin around $1600 or so and go way up from there. Highrise construction costs are so high. As I said earlier, even the ULI panel said a tall hotel could not happen without some public assistance, just too costly for a private hotel company to build.

$1600 for a nice rental in a high rise doesn't sound so bad.

$1600 for a nice rental in a high rise doesn't sound so bad.

Maybe but that might only get you a low floor small flat. Then maybe another hundred or two a month for parking.

That might not sound all that bad but how many potential renters are out there that will pay 3k and up for an upper floor? Outside of the 12 Thunder players I dont guess very many.

There may be lots of population growth but most of it is coming from reasonable priced apartments. You do realize a highrise apartment buildings rent would begin around $1600 or so and go way up from there. Highrise construction costs are so high. As I said earlier, even the ULI panel said a tall hotel could not happen without some public assistance, just too costly for a private hotel company to build.

$1,200 will get you 800 sq feet in the Skypoint Tower in downtown Tampa. Not sure what the equivalent price would be in OKC.

http://www.channelside.com/details.php?id=27

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1061-skypoint.jpg

Maybe but that might only get you a low floor small flat. Then maybe another hundred or two a month for parking.

That might not sound all that bad but how many potential renters are out there that will pay 3k and up for an upper floor? Outside of the 12 Thunder players I dont guess very many.

Typically the lower you are in the building the more space you get. You trade sq footage for view as you go up the building until you reach the penthouse - then you pay for size and view.

Do you think we'll ever see apartments in Bricktown at this point?

Short answer: God I hope so. If Bricktown is interested in staying alive and maintaining successful, avoiding the West End in the 2000s fate, then yes, someone will make apartments happen eventually.

Long answer: We know about several of the deals for apartments that fell through because of the recession. During the recession I was hearing about a handful of really interesting sounding deals that would have been really cool. Obviously they fell through. There must be a reason that stuff is not happening in Bricktown anymore. My opinion is that if a developer tried to introduce housing there the Bricktown Association would resist and attempt to kill it themselves, judging by how they react to the possibility of anything new in Bricktown (like an arts festival, for example).

I think there are ways Bricktown could get more housing if it ever came to the realization that that's what they need. They could incentivize it. They could get Pitman or Avis, maybe even the Brewers, or someone who's big in Bricktown to develop it. They could even put in an ordinance requiring a certain percentage of residential units in new developments. Even better, OCURA could call back all of the land that Hogan failed to develop according to schedule. And so on. There are ways that the city or even just the Bricktown Association could get it done on their own.

The time for residential in Bricktown has probably come and gone. There are already much more desirable places to live in the urban core with many more ready to come on-line soon. Add in easy downtown movement via streetcars and it will make it even less likely Bricktown will see residential. The people hoarding vacant land in Bricktown missed the boat.

The question then becomes how long can it survive as a tourist destination? Perhaps the boulevard will help, and something new can be put in on the parking lot south of Bass Pro to attract more people to the land run statues (which will probably be the most permanent attraction apart from the canal). Maybe even something nice could be built on the lumber yard site if it isn't incorporated into either the transit hub or convention center.

Back to topic, How about multiple 3-5 story mixed-used residences and a boutique hotel on the Ford site, if there could be an attached hotel with the convention center?

The Ford site represents the single best site downtown for retail. If there is any hope to lure national retailers to downtown it has to be at the Ford site. It is the only place where one entity owns enough contiguous land. I would like to see maybe two levels of retail with hotel and housing above.

Wish we could get something like the City Creek center in Salt Lake City.

http://www.downtownrising.com/index.php/city-creek-introduction

The Ford site represents the single best site downtown for retail. If there is anyhope to lure national retailers to downtown it has to be at the Ford site. It is the only place where one entity owns enough contiguous land. I would like to see maybe two levels of retail with hotel and housing above.

I totally agree, I just hope that is how the owners view it if it is not chosen for the convention center (God forbid).

The Ford site represents the single best site downtown for retail. If there is any hope to lure national retailers to downtown it has to be at the Ford site. It is the only place where one entity owns enough contiguous land. I would like to see maybe two levels of retail with hotel and housing above.

Wish we could get something like the City Creek center in Salt Lake City.

http://www.downtownrising.com/index.php/city-creek-introduction

Very nice for SLC, but a bit boring. I hope that OKC can use this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something REALLY unique. This is the "Kanyon" in Istanbul. It is perhaps not really right for OKC, but it is a good example of an alternative way of thinking. http://www.photos4travel.com/turkey-travel-guide/kanyon/high_quality/Istanbul_Kanyon.jpg

That is nice David. Be warned though - we have some people that say we are nothing like Istanbul so it will never work here.

Yeah, I know, but the truth is that the SLC project looked SOOO much like it fit into OKC that I thought some degree of originality needed to be suggested, albeit clearly not appropriate for the Ford site. I actually think it is important to see a great deal of sidewalk traffic, like I understand OKC used to be like in the early 60's when I was a kid. The SLC model just looks too much like a mall without a roof.

If I really had my wish, I would like to see a striking building, maybe from Jean Nouvel. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.outnext.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/04/jeannouvelchelsea01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.outnext.com/on/2007/04/nyc_residences_.html&usg=__71pYon4ODIhExbkMUg5dARhADt0=&h=413&w=465&sz=70&hl=en&start=37&zoom=1&tbnid=FAHfhl3o2SdOSM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=150&ei=vV6CTbasC8uhOoDi9MYI&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djean%2Bnouvel%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26cl ient%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1149%26b ih%3D578%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C809&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=872&vpy=208&dur=2054&hovh=212&hovw=238&tx=193&ty=116&oei=r16CTfzMBs7GtAaMm7jHAw&page=3&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:37&biw=1149&bih=578

Who cares about Salt Lake? As long as they aren't stealing our transit dollars I don't see how they of any of their new urbanism is relevant to this.

they "stole" OKC's transit dollars.

they "stole" OKC's transit dollars.

Some people think there is a Mormon conspiracy to steal transit funds from Oklahoma and send them to Utah. It all goes back to Istook who didn't approve rail funds in MAPS I but agreed to help SLC build lightrail in preparation for the Winter Olympics.

Some people think there is a Mormon conspiracy to steal transit funds from Oklahoma and send them to Utah.

Um. There is. Or was.

Will our dreams come true? Will the new CC site be moved, and Howard/Hall can proceed with plans for retail and housing in this area? Will this thread be revived from the dead?

I would love it if they would also leave the street grid.

Will our dreams come true? Will the new CC site be moved, and Howard/Hall can proceed with plans for retail and housing in this area? Will this thread be revived from the dead?
Zombies live (well, sort of)

Zombies live (well, sort of)

Hey now, this isn't the Crossroads Mall thread. lol

I did refrain from mentioning it...only because I was trying to think of a clever way to tie it in... :)

Hopefully they do it right, anything less than 15 stories wouldn't be wasting that prime location.
I hope this one happens

Bringing this thread back from the dead now that the convention center has moved on to another site.

In fact, REHCO just filed to have the old parts building demolished.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fordsite.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/rehco112315b.jpg

You wouldn't think they would spend money to demo something if they didn't think they'd get that money back on a sale or development...

In fact, REHCO just filed to have the old parts building demolished.

More $20 parking.

So now that we've moved on from the Convention Center, let's be real here:

Does REHCO have the resources to do this lot justice? They seem to be high-quality developers, but being the best developer in the world does you no good on this lot if you can't get ahold of more than $100M.

I really hope a mixed-use development with housing and retail happens on this site within the near future. I hope the plan isn't for more surface parking.

Let's be realistic here. They just left millions of dollars and rumored future cox CC site land to keep these lots. There is no way they are planning just more surface parking. It might be that way for a few years while they plan and gather finances but something will be done with the site because it is arguably one of the most valuable undeveloped sites downtown today.