Are you saying the Cox Center is important for Core to Shore because you believe it will be incorporated into the Transit Hub? If not, how in the world is the future of the Cox Center critical to the success of Core to Shore (the new boulevard south to the river)?


A myriad of reasons. Right now, the cox center is a major physical barrier for people in the CBD to access the Core to Shore areas (not to mention Bricktown, Ford Center, Myriad Gardens).

after talking to a few people i don't think this site is any where close .. remember they need convention space ... support space (storage kitchen ect) and room for a large hotel ... plus they need room to expand in the future ..

this site does not have enough space for all of that

More land could be acquired. Easily. And, if need be, the hotel could be put on the cox site, just south of the Ford Center or the north side of Central Park.

I'm not saying this is my #1 site, just that it should be strongly considered by Populus, et al.

More land could be acquired. Easily. And, if need be, the hotel could be put on the cox site, just south of the Ford Center or the north side of Central Park.

I'm not saying this is my #1 site, just that it should be strongly considered by Populus, et al.

So do the plans for a cohesive Core2Shore not matter at all? Should that all be planned around the convention center?

A myriad of reasons. Right now, the cox center is a major physical barrier for people in the CBD to access the Core to Shore areas (not to mention Bricktown, Ford Center, Myriad Gardens).

i don't think most of what you are saying is the case ... the Cox is a big barrier for east to west pedestrian transit .. but not for north to south .. thousands of people walk through the cox every time there is an event at the okc arena ...

and on the other issue .. the hotel needs to be physically attacted to the new convention center ..

i think it is pretty clear that this site will not make it out of the workshop that is the next meeting ..

So do the plans for a cohesive Core2Shore not matter at all? Should that all be planned around the convention center?

Not necessarily.

I view Maps3 as a 5-15 year plan...C2S is a 20-50+ year plan. If the 5-15 plan is messed up, it won't matter what the 20-50+ year plan is.

I personally think C2S is a pipe dream. Core 2 Shore is approx. 1,300 acres of land. For reference, the current Ford Center site is 12.5 acres. Leadership square sits on less than 3 acres.

i don't think most of what you are saying is the case ... the Cox is a big barrier for east to west pedestrian transit .. but not for north to south .. thousands of people walk through the cox every time there is an event at the okc arena ...

and on the other issue .. the hotel needs to be physically attacted to the new convention center ..

i think it is pretty clear that this site will not make it out of the workshop that is the next meeting ..


I don't take myself seriously enough to think everything I say is correct. When it comes to this site, I just think we are being too close-minded.

Major physical items become a barrier to walking around them. Physically, people can. Psychologically, they only walk around/through a major physical boundary a) if they have to b) if they know where they're going. Ideally, they would have a safe, interesting and easy way to get somewhere. There are books and books written on this subject.

All the sites for the hotel that I named earlier are directly across from the Ford Dealership site. While other cities' CC Hotels aren't attached...if we feel like it has to be attached, we could create a skywalk above ground that would directly link the two.

This site may not make it out of the next workshop. However, it's at least being considered now, so it's important to discuss it now.

Not necessarily.

I view Maps3 as a 5-15 year plan...C2S is a 20-50+ year plan. If the 5-15 plan is messed up, it won't matter what the 20-50+ year plan is.

I personally think C2S is a pipe dream. Core 2 Shore is approx. 1,300 acres of land. For reference, the current Ford Center site is 12.5 acres. Leadership square sits on less than 3 acres.

So... what is MAPS3? How do you justify it in terms of city-building? Or is it just a collection of random public facilities that have to be put somewhere afterall? If that's the case, I know a good site--Meridian or NW Expressway. Cheaper land, easier acquisition, large parcels.

With all due respect, my personal view is that M3 and C2S are intermingled and one in the same in the sense that MAPS is the public part of C2S and the first phase of it. We can't forget that we want to build a great city. Not just a great convention center. I think that is lost in all of this.

Have any of you seen the progress of film row. The site would also be centrally located to this area... Film Row is going to evolve into a BT West. Go take a look I see it everyday. Why no one is giving it any props i cannot understand..

Have any of you seen the progress of film row. The site would also be centrally located to this area... Film Row is going to evolve into a BT West. Go take a look I see it everyday. Why no one is giving it any props i cannot understand..

R&W, I don't think anyone wants another Bricktown..one of those is what we need.

I agree that Film Row is going to become something, what we have no idea. We just need to play that one out. But again, do you build a city around a convention center? Something is going to happen with this Downtown Ford land, we know that. Why do you want it to be a convention center? Why couldn't it be a large mixed-use development that pumps energy into the area at all hours of the day?

What would be better for Film Row? What would be better for C2S? What would be better for the Arts District? Heck, what would be better for all of downtown? What would be better for [insert better convention center location here]?

You have to think more holistically.

I don't see Film Row evolving into Bricktown at all. I think it's going to have its own unique character. When I first saw it before anyone had begun renovating it, I thought it would be a great retail/restaurant area, similar to some of the neighborhoods in Chicago just outside downtown. I don't know if that's going to happen. The small businesses there seem to fit it perfectly, and I'd love to see a couple really hip restaurants and bars go in there. Places for the locals rather than tourists.

All Film Row is waiting on is for the city rescue mission to move.. What is the deal on 7th and Virginia it that the new mission. The building is very cool and Modern. The bums are going to love it. Also saw the workers remodeling Detox today on Linwood and Virginia how exciteing haha..

This might help. Whenever the urban renewal maps were shown to us I could not figure out why everything to the north and to the west of the Ford sight was in the red urban renewal target, but Ford sight was not. This probably means the city wants no part of the sight. That map is somewhere on line can someone find it please. It had the art council was safe, but 400 block of reno was in the red as well as my property. Also believe ABC was also in the red.. I am going to try to find this map.

Steve L I think you know what i am talking about, Can you find it I am having trouble finding the map.

This might help. Whenever the urban renewal maps were shown to us I could not figure out why everything to the north and to the west of the Ford sight was in the red urban renewal target, but Ford sight was not. This probably means the city wants no part of the sight. That map is somewhere on line can someone find it please. It had the art council was safe, but 400 block of reno was in the red as well as my property. Also believe ABC was also in the red.. I am going to try to find this map.

R&W, what are you talking about? In the safe from what? Red urban renewal targets?

Urban renewal is acquiring land for the assemblage of the Central Park. They might do some land acquisition to spur development around the park. They might be tasked to do the land assemblage for the convention center. Other than that, I'm not aware of what you're talking about.

If you're a little clearer, there are a lot of people on here who can probably bring up the map you might be referring to..

Granted Howard and Ford have some money and could develop their site, but has anyone thought that they might just be throwing some ambitious plans out to the public to somewhat drive up the value of that property so they could demand more money if the city were to buy it for the convention center?

Granted Howard and Ford have some money and could develop their site, but has anyone thought that they might just be throwing some ambitious plans out to the public to somewhat drive up the value of that property so they could demand more money if the city were to buy it for the convention center?

The problem is it doesn't work that way. Besides, we haven't seen any ambitions plans.

Granted Howard and Ford have some money and could develop their site, but has anyone thought that they might just be throwing some ambitious plans out to the public to somewhat drive up the value of that property so they could demand more money if the city were to buy it for the convention center?

Doubtful.

Spartan it was in the DOK everyone in the neighborhood saw it. Do you live in OKC full time. Dude I know what I am talking about because I am being affected. I will try to find it for you.

I think it's very doubtful that all along Howard and Hall have just been acting as land acquisition agents for the city in secret. That would represent a strong move AWAY from the Core2Shore city-building model coming from the highest levels of city government, and I doubt that strongly. I also doubt that Preftakes is acting as a secret land acquisition agent for Devon. I don't think he's that integral a part of the good ol boy network downtown, even though I'm not saying he isn't plugged in, and I also see him doing development simply for the reason that he is a developer. He has developed lots of things in the past. He was one of the first to bring up downtown housing in this city since urban renewal, back in the 90s.

I read the Daily Oklahoman too. I'm a lot more plugged in than you realize (and I find it absolutely shameful that I'm defending my "plugged-in"-ness on a freaking Internet forum, which is why I generally avoid every single personal remark directed toward me on this board)..and yes, I'm now living in Europe for a few months. Big deal? I don't feel like OKC is moving at such a rapid pace that I miss a lot of things. I think you also know that's not the case...lol

EUROPE!!!!!!! WOW!!!! Enough said. No Wonder..

At least Reno is a real stakeholder

The people on this forum never cease to amaze me.

The people on this forum never cease to amaze me.

+1

So... what is MAPS3? How do you justify it in terms of city-building? Or is it just a collection of random public facilities that have to be put somewhere afterall? If that's the case, I know a good site--Meridian or NW Expressway. Cheaper land, easier acquisition, large parcels.

With all due respect, my personal view is that M3 and C2S are intermingled and one in the same in the sense that MAPS is the public part of C2S and the first phase of it. We can't forget that we want to build a great city. Not just a great convention center. I think that is lost in all of this.

With all due respect, I think you blew my comment out of proportion. I think you plan Maps3 with the hope that C2S comes to fruition, but don't count on it.

Going back to the Ford site, I think it's a very important key in the cog of both Maps 3 and Core to Shore. It must be developed properly and at the right time to help these initiatives succeed.

With all due respect, I think you blew my comment out of proportion. I think you plan Maps3 with the hope that C2S comes to fruition, but don't count on it.

Going back to the Ford site, I think it's a very important key in the cog of both Maps 3 and Core to Shore. It must be developed properly and at the right time to help these initiatives succeed.

I agree. I think it is the most important cog, actually. And there were (hopefully still are, I presume) plans for that. There was also a series of proposed places, off to the side, for the convention center. I think Core2Shore and the new park is going to be built AROUND what ends up going on this site. It will be the new beating heart of downtown. Should that be a convention center facility, or should it be a large, vibrant mixed-use development?

That's the question. I'm not doubting that this isn't a good site for the convention center, I'm just saying that it's an even better site for some other things, and the question I'm pressing, is why don't you think that should be considered? Why is the convention center perspective the end-point? Downtown is not about conventions. The downtown we're trying to have is about lifestyle, and business is not more than just a component of that.

That's the question. I'm not doubting that this isn't a good site for the convention center, I'm just saying that it's an even better site for some other things, and the question I'm pressing, is why don't you think that should be considered? Why is the convention center perspective the end-point? Downtown is not about conventions. The downtown we're trying to have is about lifestyle, and business is not more than just a component of that.

Well I think all Comm Real Estate Guy is saying is... if YOU owned land and had the choice of doing an expensive, difficult, development where you had to spend money and take risks OR selling land to the city at a premium easily and being done with it, wouldn't you stop and see what could play out with the city? I think I would no matter how much I wanted to see development there. It's just a smart business decision to ride that out

Oh, no doubt. I actually said just that earlier in this thread, not that it's important, but I'm definitely there. So from the perspective of Howard/Hall, yeah...

But from the perspective of the city, I think there is a LOT more, and that's all I can comment on. I can't really comment on or extrapolate what might be good for private parties. That's not really interesting to me.

I agree with you both.

As discussed earlier, I don't think this site is big enough for what the CVB is saying is needed. I also don't think the Cox Site (even with Sheraton Century Center included) is big enough.

So, I think we'll see mixed use on the Ford site. I don't think it will be developed in the near future, but it will be great when it's done.

In a dream world, this site would be perfect for:
-Retail along the Boulevard
-A skinny park running through it to connect Central Park and Myriad Gardens
-Housing developed on the rest of the site
-Also, narrowing the streets that run through the site and adding on-street parking would make this an Uptown-style development in Dallas

I think the land on the NW corner of R&W would be better suited..

I agree with you both.

As discussed earlier, I don't think this site is big enough for what the CVB is saying is needed. I also don't think the Cox Site (even with Sheraton Century Center included) is big enough. ...

Not sure if I understand this as currently the Cox site has 1M sf (arena included) and the new C.C. is going to have 300K? Seems like plenty of room for the C.C. even with Phase 2 expansion plus the hotel. Especially if it is built up and not out as some have suggested.

Not sure if I understand this as currently the Cox site has 1M sf (arena included) and the new C.C. is going to have 300K? Seems like plenty of room for the C.C. even with Phase 2 expansion plus the hotel. Especially if it is built up and not out as some have suggested.

The lot the Cox sits on in only 670,000 sq feet. The only way the claim the Cox has a million sq feet of floor space is if they count the underground parking deck, the main level (including the arena floor) and the second floor. The footprint of Cox is not 1 million sq ft. As near as I can tell the footprint of the Cox is less than 450,000 sq feet.

If you close Harney and Hudson the Ford site has 720,000 sq feet. However, this is one of the reason I am opposed to the Ford site. Downtown OKC does not need another super block, espcially when one of the last remaining thru street (Shields) is going to be reduced to two lanes and won't even connect directly to the new Blvd (which happens to be only 1 of 2 East/West thru street). Talk about creating a traffic nightmare. It would be gridlock most of the time - espcially after an event.

The lot the Cox sits on in only 670,000 sq feet. The only way the claim the Cox has a million sq feet of floor space is if they count the underground parking deck, the main level (including the arena floor) and the second floor. The footprint of Cox is not 1 million sq ft. As near as I can tell the footprint of the Cox is less than 450,000 sq feet.

If you close Harney and Hudson the Ford site has 720,000 sq feet. However, this is one of the reason I am opposed to the Ford site. Downtown OKC does not need another super block, espcially when one of the last remaining thru street (Shields) is going to be reduced to two lanes and won't even connect directly to the new Blvd (which happens to be only 1 of 2 East/West thru street). Talk about creating a traffic nightmare. It would be gridlock most of the time - espcially after an event.

What if you created a new superblock at the Downtown Ford site with the convention center, but then demolished the Cox and restored the street grid there? That would enable Broadway to go south to Reno dead-ending at the Ford Center, and for California to go from Robinson to Santa Fe. With the train station next door it could be a massive TOD on par with what they are doing at Union Station in Denver.

I am all for getting rid of the Cox superblock but that won't solve any of the problems created by a new super block on the Ford site. There will still be no thru traffic. Everyone going into or out of downtown will have to make atleast one left or right turn. It will be a traffic disaster. The city needs to be working to restore the grid, not making it worse. If they keep closing all the streets the new Blvd will need to be 6 lanes wide, and so will Shields.

Can you build "up" with a convention center? Are there 5 story convention centers that make sense with floor plans? Or is it essential to have the most amount of sq. footage on a single floor?

The Monona Terrace Convention Center in Madison, WI is 5 stories.
http://www.mononaterrace.com/conferences-conventions/facilities-room-capacities

The Duke Energy Cincinnati Convention Center is 3 stories
http://www.cincyusa.com/duke-energy-center/

The Pittsburgh Convention Center is 4 stories
http://www.pittsburghcc.com/cc/floorplans.html

The Louisville convention center is 3 stories
http://www.kyconvention.org/meeting_facilities/diagrams_and_dimensions.html

The Miami Beach convention center is 3 stories
http://www.miamibeachconvention.com/100/FloorPlans.asp

The San Diego convention center is 3 stories (5 if you count the underground parking).
http://www.visitsandiego.com/facilityinformation/floorplans.cfm

The Mobile convention center is 3 stories
http://www.mobileconventions.com/fac_layout.html

The Utah Valley (Provo) convention center is 3 stories
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700040577/Construction-of-Utah-County-Convention-Center-gets-under-way.html

In a dream world, this site would be perfect for:
-Retail along the Boulevard
-A skinny park running through it to connect Central Park and Myriad Gardens
-Housing developed on the rest of the site
-Also, narrowing the streets that run through the site and adding on-street parking would make this an Uptown-style development in Dallas

Let's just keep pushing for that dream world, eh?


Can you build "up" with a convention center? Are there 5 story convention centers that make sense with floor plans? Or is it essential to have the most amount of sq. footage on a single floor?

There are a lot of cities that "make it work" in a sensible way, but generally speaking, it is considered a strength for a CVB to be able to market the most contiguous column-free exhibition floor space as possible.

There are a lot of variables that make for a good convention center, but that's just the clearest and most basic answer that answers your question, I think.

Do any of us actually think that Okc will have a multi level convention center?

I am sure that Okc will do what it does best, sprawl everything outward not upward.

The lot the Cox sits on in only 670,000 sq feet. The only way the claim the Cox has a million sq feet of floor space is if they count the underground parking deck, the main level (including the arena floor) and the second floor. The footprint of Cox is not 1 million sq ft. As near as I can tell the footprint of the Cox is less than 450,000 sq feet. ...

That may be the case, here is what the Chamber's report stated:
2nd line = Cox
3rd line = Phase 1 (MAPS 3)
4th line = Phase 2 (future expansion)

On the surface it would seem like you should be able to get roughly half the building sf in the same footprint??

Prime Exhibit Space
81,500 sf
200,000 sf
300,000 sf

Meeting Space
28,600 sf
50,000 sf
75,000 sf

Ballroom/Multi-use Space
25,000 sf
35,000 sf
50,000 sf

Total Sellable Space
153,600 sf
285,000 sf
425,000 sf

Total Building Space
1,000,000 sf
570,000 sf
850,000 sf

It seems that it is the arena that causes the numbers to be off. The arena floor is only 36,000 sq feet but by the time you add floor space for seats concessions and bathrooms it pushes the Cox to 1,000,000 sq feet without any addition to the exhibition space. This is probably why there will not a be an arena in the new Convention Center.

I suspect at some point in the next 10 to 12 years OKC will need a new 'basketball specific' arena and at that point you will see the Cox torn down and the new arena built there. This probably explains why some people want the Convention Center built first. This will allow the Cox to sit empty for 2 or 3 years which will make it an easier to sell to the Citizens to tear it down and replace it.

The Cox Arena seating is stacked...not layered...

The Cox Arena seating is stacked...not layered...

How far is it horizontally from the front row seats to the seats in the last row? That is where the 'missing' sq footage is.

I am all for getting rid of the Cox superblock but that won't solve any of the problems created by a new super block on the Ford site. There will still be no thru traffic. Everyone going into or out of downtown will have to make atleast one left or right turn. It will be a traffic disaster. The city needs to be working to restore the grid, not making it worse. If they keep closing all the streets the new Blvd will need to be 6 lanes wide, and so will Shields.

You only will close 2 streets: Harvey (which is already blocked north of Reno at Myriad Gardens) and SW 2 (which is blocked at Robinson by the Ford Center). Robinson and Hudson remain the way they are but with a more pedestrian-oriented intersection/streetscape where they intersect with Reno.

The new convention hotel could then be built at the NE corner of Reno & Robinson once the Cox is demolished. That entire stretch of Robinson between Reno and Sheridan could have tall buildings facing the gardens. That is where the real mixed-use development would go sandwiched in between the gardens to the west, CBD to the north, convention center/Ford Center to the south, and the multi-modal transportation center/Bricktown to the east. It could be a very high density/mixed-use area that takes advantage of the main thoroughfares already downtown: Broadway, Robinson, Sheridan, Reno.

You only will close 2 streets: Harvey (which is already blocked north of Reno at Myriad Gardens) and SW 2 (which is blocked at Robinson by the Ford Center). Robinson and Hudson remain the way they are but with a more pedestrian-oriented intersection/streetscape where they intersect with Reno.

They will also need to close Hudson. Depending how the alignment of the new Blvd is done 2nd doesn't have to be closed either. Once Prominade Park goes in they are going to have close even more streets. Someone with the City needs to start ensuring that traffic can flow with all the these street closings.

They will also need to close Hudson. Depending how the alignment of the new Blvd is done 2nd doesn't have to be closed either. Once Prominade Park goes in they are going to have close even more streets. Someone with the City needs to start ensuring that traffic can flow with all the these street closings.

Why would you have to close Hudson? You could likely fit the entire program of the convention center onto the site bordered by Reno, the blvd, Robinson and Hudson. If you absolutely had to have the extra space west of Hudson why not a skybridge like the Washington DC convention center?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/62893631_0d7072ae19.jpg

Why would you have to close Hudson? You could likely fit the entire program of the convention center onto the site bordered by Reno, the blvd, Robinson and Hudson. If you absolutely had to have the extra space west of Hudson why not a skybridge like the Washington DC convention center?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/62893631_0d7072ae19.jpg

Now imagine walking through that to get from the Myriad Park to the Central Park.

Now imagine walking through that to get from the Myriad Park to the Central Park.

that is why this is a horrible site for the new convention center

The Dallas Convention Center has two major streets and a DART line running beneath it. So it is possible to integrate a huge convention center into a street grid. With that said, it does back up to an interstate and rail line so its impact on the downtown core is minimal.

We are trying to squeeze ours in between two parks and an iconic boulevard.

No, thats just one unmentioned possibility of about 3 mentioned.

No, thats just one unmentioned possibility of about 3 mentioned.

Well, someone is trying to. It is on a list of only 3 locations.

I know a lot of business owners in Bricktown I attend all the COC functions. All I here is they do not want the Mill Sight.. It still might go there and if it does Great!!! This conversation will finally be over in 2-3 months.. Speculation is fun!! Still think they need to close SW 2 nd street between Walker and Hudson nobody ever uses it..

Still think they need to close SW 2 nd street between Walker and Hudson nobody ever uses it..

They will with 6 sq blocks of retail and residential there.

Okay - I am done discussing the Ford site being a potential Convention Center location. Based on the criteria being used to located the CC the Ford site is a dead end.

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/file-108-.pdf

I don't know when this happened, but they have already demolished one of the buildings (the northern most) on the Ford site and appear to be moving quickly to the others.

Demo of the Ford site makes it seem there is a timeline at work here. I drove past there yesterday and wondered, what's the rush?? Maybe an announcement is nearing...

I don't think we will hear an announcement until after they select CC site, however,they can still announce proposals/plans for the property, if that site is not selected for CC, I guess we will know soon...

The Ford site would be perfect for a highrise hotel. It could be the CC hotel that is not connected but close. Whatever they decide to build there lets hope it's a high rise.

Yes, that property has potential, and mixed-use would be the way to go, why limit yourself to one market. A high-rise with a hotel and residences would work, with retail at ground level....

Article today by Steve:

http://www.newsok.com/fred-jones-dealership-in-downtown-okc-is-history-but-will-likely-play-significant-role-in-downtowns-future/article/3548833?custom_click=columnist

Yeah, but not really any new news in the article.