This is frustrating and terrifying. Not enough of our fellow citizens or leaders are taking this seriously. Speaking as someone who has a young family member who got this, no one wants to get this! I know I am speaking to the chorus here.

My wife was at a CVS in North OKC when a middle-aged woman came into the store without a mask. The staff told her a mask is required to shop there. The woman said, “No, I’m good. Plus, I don’t have a mask.” They had a pile of free masks and offered her one. She said, “No, I’m fine, I am just picking up some coffee beans.”

This back and forth continued with the staff escalating the intensity of their demand that she put on the mask. Eventually the woman just bullied her way into the store, ignoring the workers and, at this point, other shoppers pleading with her to wear a mask.


Honestly, businesses need to have the courage to say "We won't sell you anything until you put a mask on." Just straight up put their items behind the counter and not accept their payment until they wear it. That is the only way to get their attention.

Numbers from the New Your Times:

At least 8 new coronavirus deaths and 1,250 new cases were reported in Oklahoma on Aug. 1. Over the past week, there have been an average of 1,089 cases per day, an increase of 44 percent from the average two weeks earlier.

As of Sunday morning, there have been at least 37,706 cases and 549 deaths in Oklahoma since the beginning of the pandemic, according to a New York Times database.


STAY SAFE WEAR MASKS

Honestly, businesses need to have the courage to say "We won't sell you anything until you put a mask on." Just straight up put their items behind the counter and not accept their payment until they wear it. That is the only way to get their attention.

That’s what I was saying up thread, post 4445. Businesses need to make it clear. “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Masks, No Service. And stick to it. This can’t be beat by sitting around waiting on our elected officials to do it for us.

That’s what I was saying up thread, post 4445. Businesses need to make it clear. “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Masks, No Service. And stick to it. This can’t be beat by sitting around waiting on our elected officials to do it for us.
Absolutely! If EVERYBODY would just do what we all need to do to get past this virus we could beat it.

494 new cases reported today (Sunday).

1 more person has died.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-flu-season-2020-2021.htm
CDC believes it will have plenty of flu vaccine for September and October. Plus 2 new quadrivalents for the 65 and up crowd.

Again, huge props to all the labs that work in vaccine development. Working on the Covid problem doesn't change the need for all our other scheduled vaccines. The bench researchers and scientists are amazing humans.

Under 500 cases today? So expect another huge number Monday or Tuesday?

That’s what I was saying up thread, post 4445. Businesses need to make it clear. “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Masks, No Service. And stick to it. This can’t be beat by sitting around waiting on our elected officials to do it for us.

But, as I've (and other news outlets) have said - having a (most likely close to) min wage teenager in a different t-shirt enforcing no-mask, no-sale just isn't going to do it. And since our POS mask nandate doesn't have any enforcement teeth, and our "leaders" have told us to not bother calling the only people that can really enforce it, what's left? Everybody just go about your business, nothing to see here, just move on........... Idiots, all of them (maskholes, companies that won't enforce the mandate, the city council, the mayor, and the governor).

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-flu-season-2020-2021.htm
CDC believes it will have plenty of flu vaccine for September and October. Plus 2 new quadrivalents for the 65 and up crowd.

Finally some good news. Hopefully we will get ahead of this thing.

Lots of parents at our schools talking about how they won’t listen to the rules about walking kids to the doors and that the schools can’t stop them if they all ignore the rules and march to the doors together. They talk about how it would be traumatizing to the kids if they have to walk 20 yards to the doors by themselves, so instead they are going to throw a giant fit and make a scene and get themselves arrested instead. Because that is less trauma to the kids than spending three weeks preparing them to walk a short distance alone. This doesn’t have much to do with “it’s hard for the kids” but rather “I can’t handle not hovering over my kids as long as possible”. It’s the same group also complaining that their Kids won’t be able to wear masks at school while they are there, and they are making zero effort to work with their kids now to get them used to wearing a mask. I’m sure these same kids are also picking up the same “**** the rules, I won’t follow them” mentality they are seeing from their parents.

We’ve been working with our kiddos on mask wearing. Today, our 3 and 6 year olds already spend 4 hours wearing their masks outside in almost 90 degree temperatures while visiting the Zoo. They kept their mask on with minimal reminders, kept distances, and didn’t have any problems with it. Their 3 year old cousin has the same results.

But, as I've (and other news outlets) have said - having a (most likely close to) min wage teenager in a different t-shirt enforcing no-mask, no-sale just isn't going to do it. And since our POS mask nandate doesn't have any enforcement teeth, and our "leaders" have told us to not bother calling the only people that can really enforce it, what's left? Everybody just go about your business, nothing to see here, just move on........... Idiots, all of them (maskholes, companies that won't enforce the mandate, the city council, the mayor, and the governor).

This is up to the private sector. It doesn’t Is start or stop with the minimum wage teenager behind the counter. They are just one part of the picture. It has to be implemented and enforced by the owners and managers. If the teenager has difficulty with a customer, then the management needs to step in. If the teenager can’t or won’t do what is required, then they should be replaced. However, it doesn’t have to be that way if the enforcement is done before it gets to the cashier, meaning no one gets in the door without a mask. It takes leadership. And management IS leadership. And if a manager won’t do it, they THEY should be replaced. We know what needs to be done. We just need to knuckle down and do it. ALL of us. If not, then we’re all just spinning our wheels.

Nobody wants to the next “[brand] store in [city] has assault after mask argument” video, so many places do nothing.

Using data from The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/coronavirus-maps.html) I decided to compare Oklahoma's recent case rate over the past week (up through yesterday) with other countries*.

With 7650 new cases, our rate over the last week has been: 5 times that of Mexico, 7 times that of Russia, 17 times that of France, 16 times that of Australia, 24 times that of the U.K. and Canada, 32 times that of Germany and Japan, 64 times that of Italy, 461 times that of South Korea, and 4700 times that of... China. And that's before we begin to reopen schools.

In fact, if Oklahoma were a country, this past week would've placed it with the highest case rate in the world. But crazier yet: there are ten states with even higher rates than us! Just really goes to show how poorly the U.S. is doing compared to the rest of the world.

* with the caveat of differing testing infrastructure around the world and the fact that states are not the same as countries and can't truly be compared apples-to-apples.

This is up to the private sector. It doesn’t Is start or stop with the minimum wage teenager behind the counter. They are just one part of the picture. It has to be implemented and enforced by the owners and managers. If the teenager has difficulty with a customer, then the management needs to step in. If the teenager can’t or won’t do what is required, then they should be replaced. However, it doesn’t have to be that way if the enforcement is done before it gets to the cashier, meaning no one gets in the door without a mask. It takes leadership. And management IS leadership. And if a manager won’t do it, they THEY should be replaced. We know what needs to be done. We just need to knuckle down and do it. ALL of us. If not, then we’re all just spinning our wheels.

I wasn't talking about the min wage teenager behind the counter, I was talking about the one that's supposed to stop people at the door from walking in unmasked (Walmart's "health ambassadors" wearing black shirts), and it wasn't meant to apply just to Walmart, it applies to all establishments. And no, the person at the door (if there even *is* one) isn't going to stop anybody from going in, and s/he won't get replaced. The manager won't enforce it, they'll ask nicely and then be done with it, and they won't get replaced either, and then everything will go on just like it's normal. All the establishments (for the most part, yes, there are exceptions) care about is making sales, and if anything stands in their way, screw that, let 'em in. And yes, we're spinning our wheels because of all that, and we'll continue to spin for months and deaths to come - a great many people just don't care and will not care. Also, d-usa's post above sums it up - take the easy way out, no ripples in the pond of capitalism, don't disturb the cash registers and everything will be fine. That's why we need an *enforceable* mask mandate (yes, they are constitutional), and not the pandering crap they passed. Seriously, don't call the police in the middle of literally a public health emergency, call the Action Line so they can show up 5 days later?

Lots of parents at our schools talking about how they won’t listen to the rules about walking kids to the doors and that the schools can’t stop them if they all ignore the rules and march to the doors together. They talk about how it would be traumatizing to the kids if they have to walk 20 yards to the doors by themselves, so instead they are going to throw a giant fit and make a scene and get themselves arrested instead. Because that is less trauma to the kids than spending three weeks preparing them to walk a short distance alone. This doesn’t have much to do with “it’s hard for the kids” but rather “I can’t handle not hovering over my kids as long as possible”. It’s the same group also complaining that their Kids won’t be able to wear masks at school while they are there, and they are making zero effort to work with their kids now to get them used to wearing a mask. I’m sure these same kids are also picking up the same “**** the rules, I won’t follow them” mentality they are seeing from their parents.

We’ve been working with our kiddos on mask wearing. Today, our 3 and 6 year olds already spend 4 hours wearing their masks outside in almost 90 degree temperatures while visiting the Zoo. They kept their mask on with minimal reminders, kept distances, and didn’t have any problems with it. Their 3 year old cousin has the same results.

I quite enjoyed walking the six or seven blocks home from elementary school alone, I must have liked traumatizing myself. Some days I even extended the trauma playing on the playground alone, since it was on the way.

I quite enjoyed walking the six or seven blocks home from elementary school alone, I must have liked traumatizing myself. Some days I even extended the trauma playing on the playground alone, since it was on the way.Three of us lived about 6 blocks west of Sequoyah Elem where we went to school. We made the trip more like 8 blocks because we usually went to the creek and walked it at least home. We were usually a mess when we got home!

I quite enjoyed walking the six or seven blocks home from elementary school alone, I must have liked traumatizing myself. Some days I even extended the trauma playing on the playground alone, since it was on the way.

And the playground a was asphalt, and the playground equipment was all steel, with no padded edges. How did we ever survive?

And the playground a was asphalt, and the playground equipment was all steel, with no padded edges. How did we ever survive?
REALLY! No way we should have made it!

Commercial starts with dramatic music, then a voice over begins: “if you were exposed to bare metal slides on asphalt as a child, you may be entitled to compensation.”

Commercial starts with dramatic music, then a voice over begins: “if you were exposed to bare metal slides on asphalt as a child, you may be entitled to compensation.”
I love it!

This is actually great news, not the doom and gloom most on this board want to hear.

Though confirmed cases of coronavirus in Oklahoma rose by more than 22,000 in July, there were fewer deaths last month from COVID-19 than in April, when new cases numbered less than 3,000.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5668210/advances-in-treatments-reducing-covid-19-deaths-doctors-say

1) of course as a member of this board I enjoy when Oklahomans die from COVID-19 and I am saddened by these advances. /s

2) it’s not a ****ing binary “alive/dead” outcome. It’s almost like we have talked about this once or twice in the 200+ pages here.

One of my healthy coworkers in his 30/ got the disease back in April and survived being on the ventilator. He’s still not back to work, likely looking at a lifelong disability instead of employment, and they are still trying to figure out if he will need a lung transplant.

But hey, he didn’t die so who gives a ****. It’s all about them deaths.

Couldn't have said it any better.
This is actually great news, not the doom and gloom most on this board want to hear.

[I]Though confirmed cases of coronavirus in Oklahoma rose by more than 22,000 in July, there were fewer deaths last month from COVID-19 than in April, when new cases numbered less than 3,000.[/I

https://oklahoman.com/article/5668210/advances-in-treatments-reducing-covid-19-deaths-doctors-say

This is actually great news, not the doom and gloom most on this board want to hear.

Though confirmed cases of coronavirus in Oklahoma rose by more than 22,000 in July, there were fewer deaths last month from COVID-19 than in April, when new cases numbered less than 3,000.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5668210/advances-in-treatments-reducing-covid-19-deaths-doctors-say

Here are the death totals:

April: 191
May: 112
June: 53
July: 156


I doubt many people see deaths tripling in one month as 'great news'.

Here are the death totals:

April: 191
May: 112
June: 53
July: 156


I doubt many people see deaths tripling in one month as 'great news'.

What were the case #s like from month to month?

Not making light or taking anything from those who have lost a friend or loved one, by any means. Each death is tragic, and is heartbreaking to hear about.

What were the case #s like from month to month?

And this matters why?

Death is an extreme lagging indicator and has been trending sharply up.


This has been covered over and over.

This is actually great news, not the doom and gloom most on this board want to hear.

Though confirmed cases of coronavirus in Oklahoma rose by more than 22,000 in July, there were fewer deaths last month from COVID-19 than in April, when new cases numbered less than 3,000.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5668210/advances-in-treatments-reducing-covid-19-deaths-doctors-say

It is nice to see a glimmer of positivity for once. Medical personnel have learned how to better treat patients and so we're seeing better outcomes because of it. Researchers and front-line medical personnel here have done an amazing job in a relatively short time. It's our job to do our best to keep out of the hospital and give them time to get even better at it so we can get past this and get back to normal.

377 new cases reported today.

1 additional death.

But this was posted on Oklahoma Source:

8/3/2020
*On the OSU ECHO call this morning, Interim OSDH Commissioner Col. Lance Frye stated that today's number would be very low and that there is still a backlog of 22,000 tests yet to be processed.

Last week had a 8.9% positivity rate. The true number of confirmed positives could be scary.

We can't possibly reopen schools and restart sports until we are able to quickly process tests, and after 6 months of doing this, we are headed in the complete wrong direction.

If they can't process tests in a timely manner then any daily numbers are useless. My daughter still hasn't gotten her results from 3 weeks ago. If she was positive she would have already been sick and recovered by now. If they have 22,000 backlogged tests then the daily numbers they post are also lagging, just like hospitalizations and deaths everyone is so quick to dismiss because they are lagging. Lagging numbers can never be charted and trends can never be observed. Are cases rising? Falling? Plateaued? NOBODY KNOWS because all the info we have is inaccurate. Garbage in-Garbage out

I think the most accurate-real time numbers are hospitalizations and deaths. Although a cause of death can be debated these are the only true facts we have.

Since the very beginning I only know three people personally that have tested positive. One was a friend's grandmother that died in early April. She was also obese, diabetic, and she had a heart issue. Death was listed as Covid which the family tried to fight with no success. Another friends daughter had no symptoms and a friends son last week in Stillwater is showing symptoms. He said it feels like the flu.

With these types of delays, there is no point even testing.

Just quarantine eveyrone who thinks they may have it.

Lagging numbers can never be charted and trends can never be observed. Are cases rising? Falling? Plateaued? NOBODY KNOWS because all the info we have is inaccurate. Garbage in-Garbage out.

This is a relatively new problem and we are just talking about Oklahoma.

It's irresponsible to dismiss all data as useless.

We have lots of data points (from Oklahoma, surrounding states and nationally) over quite a period of time now so it's not hard to identify trends, even if daily numbers in a limited geography are erratic.

With these types of delays, there is no point even testing.

Just quarantine eveyrone who thinks they may have it.

Exactly. I was sick a couple of weeks ago with symptoms that very well could have been Covid. Called my doctor and we came to the same conclusion. I quarantined and stayed home for a couple of weeks, since the effort to get tested and wait for the response wasn't worth it. If I had gotten worse I would have gone to the hospital but otherwise what's the point.

This is the big one for me. I think an debate could be made for or against a mask mandate, or a state wide stay at home order, or how we handled hospital readiness or whatever. But there's really no excuse for use to be 6 months in to this and still not have the capacity or ability for timely testing. This should be pandemic 101. Even if it takes a little time to ramp up capacity, there is absolutely no excuse for us to still be having these issues. How can we even think about having a clear picture, doing any sort of contact tracing, and trying to manage outbreaks and hotspots if we can't identify them in a timely manner?

We can't possibly reopen schools and restart sports until we are able to quickly process tests, and after 6 months of doing this, we are headed in the complete wrong direction.

I agree. My kids go to a public school and it feels like every week they announce a new plan for reopening school. I think all High School fall sports will be cancelled and I think college will happen. They will limit fans in attendance and will be on TV. They have to have that TV revenue to survive. OK State just cancelled homecoming that that is very foreshadowing.

We can't possibly reopen schools and "restart sports" until we are able to quickly process tests, and after 6 months of doing this, we are headed in the complete wrong direction.

sports? sports in general?

MLS, NBA and NHL are all playing sports and in bubbles. Once the players got inside the bubble the rates have gone considerably down.
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-nhls-latest-covid-19-223515733.html
https://www.nba.com/article/2020/07/29/nba-nbpa-update-covid-19-test-results-official-release
For some reason MLB didnt want to do bubbles. I think they could have had several maybe by league or even by division and been fine.
If MLB makes it to the playoffs look for them to bubble the teams in some location at that point.

you must mean high school sports?

Universities are losing tens and hundreds of millions. That is money that cannot be replaced. I'm not at all advocating that they should go back to in-person classes and playing sports, just pointing out one of many looming financial catastrophes.

Already, fully 40% of universities are not plannng in-person classes this fall and that number is growing every day. I'll bet it will be well less than 50% before fall classes start.

sports? sports in general?

MLS, NBA and NHL are all playing sports and in bubbles. Once the players got inside the bubble the rates have gone considerably down.
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-nhls-latest-covid-19-223515733.html
https://www.nba.com/article/2020/07/29/nba-nbpa-update-covid-19-test-results-official-release
For some reason MLB didnt want to do bubbles. I think they could have had several maybe by league or even by division and been fine.
If MLB makes it to the playoffs look for them to bubble the teams in some location at that point.

you must mean high school sports?

I mean ALL sports, including football and all levels of other sports.

No university sports are being played at all and haven't been for 6 months, and that represents way more teams, fans and dollars than the pro sports that have restarted in very limited ways.

Bubbles won't work in amateur sports. They are students first and have to attend campus. I think I heard the NBA is spending $1.5 million a day for their bubble in Orlando. I think if any pro sport wants to stay relevant and have fans after all of this then some kind of "bubble" will have to be implemented.

Bubbles won't work in amateur sports. They are students first and have to attend campus. I think I heard the NBA is spending $1.5 million a day for their bubble in Orlando. I think if any pro sport wants to stay relevant and have fans after all of this then some kind of "bubble" will have to be implemented.

Couldn’t they just use the Internet to learn remotely? There’s probably ways to make it work, but I don’t see the Big Money Donors fronting the cash to finance bubbles, even for D1 football teams.

With these types of delays, there is no point even testing.

Just quarantine eveyrone who thinks they may have it.

100% agree. Although most are presented with a financial vs moral dilemma and deciding income is more important.

Couldn’t they just use the Internet to learn remotely? There’s probably ways to make it work, but I don’t see the Big Money Donors fronting the cash to finance bubbles, even for D1 football teams.

I don't know the NCAA rules about a student athlete. I know OSSAA states the student has to attend at least one class on campus to be able to play sports. If a student can't even take one class in person because of Covid-19 should we even consider sports essential enough to play? D-1 is amateur sports and nobody is going to pay for a bubble that big.

^

More importantly, college players aren't paid while the university and coaches make millions.

No way can they offer up players in this way; especially if the schools themselves deem their own campuses unsafe for the casual student to sit in a classroom.

It's funny. When the numbers come in sky high, it's all doom and gloom around here and I get roasted when I suggest not to trust these numbers right now. Now that the numbers are low, all I see is "we can't trust these numbers!!!"

I tried to tell you all that they are completely unreliable right now...whether they're high or low.

^

More importantly, college players aren't paid while the university and coaches make millions.

No way can they offer up players in this way; especially if the schools themselves deem their own campuses unsafe for the casual student to sit in a classroom.

While they may not be paid, they do receive room and board, an education, and exposure. I would have loved that opportunity if I was gifted in a sport (I wasn't!).

If it's unsafe for classes it's unsafe to play.

It's funny. When the numbers come in sky high, it's all doom and gloom around here and I get roasted when I suggest not to trust these numbers right now. Now that the numbers are low, all I see is "we can't trust these numbers!!!"

I tried to tell you all that they are completely unreliable right now...whether they're high or low.

Same here! Numbers flying all around me and I'm just sitting here trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Sometimes I feel like everyone around me has an agenda to push and I just want to live my simple life.

As has been stated over and over, look at trends and data from surrounding states and from the country overall.

You don't have to dive down into each daily number in each county and state to see a clear pattern.


It's not just "garbage in, garbage out". Some info is temporarily incomplete or late; that in no way should distract from broad and obvious trends.

We are not splitting the atom, here. People are just merely trying to decide very big and general questions like: Should schools fully reopen?

And the information that it is taking 1-2 weeks to process tests is very important in itself.

With these types of delays, there is no point even testing.

Just quarantine eveyrone who thinks they may have it.

Looks like that's the only option at this point.

Meanwhile, in the UK:

Roll-out of 2 new rapid coronavirus tests ahead of winter (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/roll-out-of-2-new-rapid-coronavirus-tests-ahead-of-winter)

I’m noticing a lot of seemingly acceptable posts being removed. Is something wrong with the Servers?

I’m noticing a lot of seemingly acceptable posts being removed. Is something wrong with the Servers?

I'm still deleting a bunch due to politics and completely incorrect information.

In the future, any questions about board moderation should be dealt with through a private message to me.

If they can't process tests in a timely manner then any daily numbers are useless. My daughter still hasn't gotten her results from 3 weeks ago. If she was positive she would have already been sick and recovered by now. If they have 22,000 backlogged tests then the daily numbers they post are also lagging, just like hospitalizations and deaths everyone is so quick to dismiss because they are lagging. Lagging numbers can never be charted and trends can never be observed. Are cases rising? Falling? Plateaued? NOBODY KNOWS because all the info we have is inaccurate. Garbage in-Garbage out

I think the most accurate-real time numbers are hospitalizations and deaths. Although a cause of death can be debated these are the only true facts we have.

Since the very beginning I only know three people personally that have tested positive. One was a friend's grandmother that died in early April. She was also obese, diabetic, and she had a heart issue. Death was listed as Covid which the family tried to fight with no success. Another friends daughter had no symptoms and a friends son last week in Stillwater is showing symptoms. He said it feels like the flu.

Yep, at this point the testing is pointless from a containment point of view. Your looking at what the virus was doing a week to two weeks ago. Looking at Hospital data and other states data I would say were at a plateau.

It is exhausting having to address repeated tropes that are irrelevant, such as any kind of argument about "low death rates" or "like the flu." Jeez, really people?

1. COVID-19 doesn't have to kill you to screw up your body and your life and permanently maim you.
2. Doctors have gotten better at treating patients than they were in April.
3. Any attempt to minimize the deaths that have occurred at the hands of this virus is borderline evil: did you really think there would be over 150,000 dead Americans by August 1 when this hit the US?
4. Perhaps lower death counts as a ratio of positive infections is reflected by the fact that a major share of new cases is among young people, but just because they are not dead does not mean they won't suffer potential life-changing damage to their minds and bodies.

Again, we have a memorial service every year on April 19 to honor the tragic deaths of 168 Oklahomans. We have a similar ceremony in New York to honor the memory of about 2750 people killed in the WTC attack. Right now we have lost about 550 Oklahomans in six months to this virus -- and counting.

It is not just about deaths! And no life is expendable. None.

It is not just about deaths! And no life is expendable. None.

do you think everyone should wear a mask every year during flu season? this would with out question save lives

do you think everyone in every car should wear a helmet at all times? this would with out question save lives ..

ect ect ect ect ect

do you think everyone should wear a mask every year during flu season? this would with out question save lives

do you think everyone in every car should wear a helmet at all times? this would with out question save lives ..

ect ect ect ect ect

Unserious question.

Unserious question.

very serious questions 1.8 mil people have died in the united states this year. are we taking all of those deaths seriously and reporting on them as such??

very serious questions 1.8 mil people have died in the united states this year. are we taking all of those deaths seriously and reporting on them as such??

That would be a more rational retort if we didn't already spend quite a bit of time and money as a society minimizing unnecessary deaths. Could we be doing more? Clearly. Are we already doing a lot? Absolutely.

...

We are not splitting the atom, here. People are just merely trying to decide very big and general questions like: Should schools fully reopen?
...

Can't remember which school, but saw a headline that said "First COVID-19 positive test within hours of <insert name here> school re-opening". Football players at some schools have tested positive because practice has already begun. Tons of schools don't have HVAC systems that can filter out the coronavirus and can't be adapted to do so, unless they spend huge $$$. Also tons of schools don't have windows that can open (which would be miserable at this time of year in some places, like it was in OKC when I was school and mine didn't really have A/C. So I'd say "nope, schools not ready to re-open".

That would be a more rational retort if we didn't already spend quite a bit of time and money as a society minimizing unnecessary deaths. Could we be doing more? Clearly. Are we already doing a lot? Absolutely.

This! I had someone throw the whole "well, more people a year die from cancer" at me like it was a mic drop. We spend A LOT of time and money trying to prevent unnecessary cancer deaths, and I couldn't even list the number of laws and regulations which exist and restrict certain rights in an attempt to try to prevent exposure to carcinogens.

This! I had someone throw the whole "well, more people a year die from cancer" at me like it was a mic drop. We spend A LOT of time and money trying to prevent unnecessary cancer deaths, and I couldn't even list the number of laws and regulations which exist and restrict certain rights in an attempt to try to prevent exposure to carcinogens.

it is honestly like waving the white flag in terms of debate. is that all ya got? Not to mention, we have seatbelt laws, smoking laws, we spend billions researching ways to fight disease and improve health outcomes, so, the question itself is fundamentally unserious.