If not, then I have terrible luck. Again, I will NOT take a super rushed vaccine for anything. There are promises of a vaccine in less than 9 months since inception. Forget that. Some can take decades. For a virus with so many unknowns (this thread states as much), how can a vaccine be created in 8 months?

OK, I know you didn't have time to read (or even skim) all (or any of) those, so here's the gist - you probably just had an immune response reaction, not the flu (and no, I don't know that for sure because I'm not you). Also, vaccine takes two weeks to work, so there is a window of opportunity for the flu to get you, also could've been another strain, or a bad reaction (Mayo link has this info), or some other illness. Neither me nor my wife had ever had a flu vaccine until last year and we both got one and were perfectly fine afterwards. Even if we got sick/felt unwell, we'd likely still be getting it this year again (and from now on) because we believe in proven science.

I get a flu shot every year and haven't had it since I started doing so over 20 years ago.

OK, I know you didn't have time to read (or even skim) all (or any of) those, so here's the gist - you probably just had an immune response reaction, not the flu (and no, I don't know that for sure because I'm not you). Also, vaccine takes two weeks to work, so there is a window of opportunity for the flu to get you, also could've been another strain, or a bad reaction (Mayo link has this info), or some other illness. Neither me nor my wife had ever had a flu vaccine until last year and we both got one and were perfectly fine afterwards. Even if we got sick/felt unwell, we'd likely still be getting it this year again (and from now on) because we believe in proven science.

I did test positive for the flu about 2 months after getting the vaccine. And I was sick as a dog. Only time I missed any college classes (this was about 10 years ago). Who knows why, but I got it, not the reaction, since it was so far after. I am not questioning the efficacy of the vaccine, just that I won't risk it until it has been studied on a large scale (i.e. given to millions).

Interestingly, you can already see how the decision to not take a vaccine is falling along political lines.

Interestingly, you can already see how the decision to not take a vaccine is falling along political lines.

How so? I am registered to the party that most likely WOULD get the vaccine. In general, maybe so. But I must be the exception (did not mean to make it political, but the door was already opened).

Interestingly, you can already see how the decision to not take a vaccine is falling along political lines.

As I've said during this whole thing, we seem to be the stupidest country in the world...

As already stated, any widely approved vaccine would have to follow the same testing as any other.

It's being developed quickly because the U.S. and other countries are pouring in billions and there are billions to be made on behalf of the pharmaceutical companies.

I was as concerned as a lot of people when I heard about "Operation Warp Speed" but from what I understand about it now, it's misguided, a waste of money, and may not be effective, but it shouldn't affect safety. Basically, the government is expediting approvals and letting companies do Phase 2 and Phase 3 clinical trials simultaneously so that the data collection and analysis process which can take years is finished in months. They're also giving the companies billions of dollars to start manufacturing the vaccines now before the clinical trials are done.

Waste of money: It's virtually guaranteed that millions will be spent manufacturing at least one vaccine which doesn't work and will have to be thrown away
Misguided: The vaccine candidates for the program were picked by who would be "first to market" instead of who had the best track record
Not Effective: Standards have been set where the threshold for immunity is in the area of 50% and measured in months instead of years

The risk is that with speed being the main focus, a more effective vaccine doesn't get the attention and investment it needs, but there are literally hundreds of vaccines being developed and trillions of dollars being invested so eventually something better will come along. People may end up first getting a vaccine that only provides them partial protection for a limited period (which doesn't mean it's not safe and that it won't lessen the severity of their symptoms), and then have to get a different vaccine a few months to a year later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trumps-promise-of-warp-speed-fuels-anti-vaccine-movement-in-fertile-corners-of-the-web/2020/05/20/c2b3d408-9ab2-11ea-89fd-28fb313d1886_story.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/06/how-we-will-know-when-coronavirus-vaccine-is-ready-cvd/

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/06/16/fact-sheet-explaining-operation-warp-speed.html

I have always found anti-vaxers to be the far right and far left of each party. Basically the people who are very far out of each way generally believe vaccines are evil/cause disease. It is pretty sad honestly that this has taken place. Not just in the US this is a global thing that many other countries deal with as well.

As I've said during this whole thing, we seem to be the stupidest country in the world...

I am not anti-vax. Never will be, either. I just don't want to get a rushed vaccine that will be skipping protocols to get to market quicker. Just my stupid opinion, though. I am just a dumb Oklahoma CPA working towards his MBA.

I have always found anti-vaxers to be the far right and far left of each party. Basically the people who are very far out of each way generally believe vaccines are evil/cause disease. It is pretty sad honestly that this has taken place. Not just in the US this is a global thing that many other countries deal with as well.

This doesn't align with the data. In general, anti-vaxxers are predominantly conservative:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/

This has just gotten worse since the Trump era, given that Trump himself promoted anti-vaccination conspiracy theories like vaccines cause autism

I did test positive for the flu about 2 months after getting the vaccine. And I was sick as a dog. Only time I missed any college classes (this was about 10 years ago). Who knows why, but I got it, not the reaction, since it was so far after. I am not questioning the efficacy of the vaccine, just that I won't risk it until it has been studied on a large scale (i.e. given to millions).

You could very well have had it, as the flu vaccine isn't 100% effective. The point Travellers is trying to get ahead of is that the vaccine didn't give you the flu.

596 today. I wonder if we will keep seeing cases during the week around 600. Scary.

I am not anti-vax. Never will be, either. I just don't want to get a rushed vaccine that will be skipping protocols to get to market quicker. Just my stupid opinion, though. I am just a dumb Oklahoma CPA working towards his MBA.

Wasn't directed at you personally (hence "country"), just at the US population as a whole. And I agree a rushed vaccine can be problematic. And thanks for getting an MBA, one more to add to the "educated more than high school" population here in OK. :)

596 new cases.
56 new hospitalizations
6 additional deaths

Based on the interactions I’ve had at my workplace, some people have no clue how vaccines work.

You could very well have had it, as the flu vaccine isn't 100% effective. The point Travellers is trying to get ahead of is that the vaccine didn't give you the flu.

Oh, I never meant to imply that it did. I meant to say that vaccines are, even when well-established like the flu vaccine, subject to failure. So one that is rushed like the COVID vaccine is being, might have a higher chance at not being effective.

11,500 new cases in Florida today, a new record.

And Arizona with 4,500 on a much small population base. At this rate, they will soon have more per capita cases than any other state.

Fewer than 1,000 ICU beds available in Texas.

I know the flu vaccine can’t give you the flu. 100% on board. But I can feel jonny d’s point. For years I wouldn’t get a flu shot because dad contracted Guillian-Barre syndrome in 1979 and it was possibly attributable to that years flu shots. He spent the rest of his life in bed or a wheelchair. Then in maybe 2000ish when my wife worked at Hertz they gave free flu shots to employees and spouses. Got the shot two years and both years I got something a couple weeks later. Not a reaction. A curled up in the fetal position wishing God would take me now sick. Couldn’t keep water down for 3 or 4 days. Stopped getting them until a couple years ago when my doctor strongly suggested a 60 year old should get the flu shot, backed up by my hips replacement surgeon suggesting it’s a good idea because the flu could become a bacterial infection if it went into pneumonia. And that can be VERY bad. So two years of flu shots with no issues at all. I’m sure the other 2 times were pure coincidence.

11,500 new cases in Florida today, a new record.

And Arizona with 4,500 on a much small population base. At this rate, they will soon have more per capita cases than any other state.

Fewer than 1,000 ICU beds available in Texas.

So I was wondering this when our esteemed governor said "we're fine, we have tons of ICU beds across the state" - what happens when all the ICU beds in OKC and Tulsa are full and there are still ICU beds in McAlester or Guymon (just random picks) - do they send COVID-19 patients all the way across the state to those? And yep, am aware that not all ICUs are equal, so wondering also how that plays into it?

^

They would likely try and scramble and set up temporary facilities.

So I was wondering this when our esteemed governor said "we're fine, we have tons of ICU beds across the state" - what happens when all the ICU beds in OKC and Tulsa are full and there are still ICU beds in McAlester or Guymon (just random picks) - do they send COVID-19 patients all the way across the state to those? And yep, am aware that not all ICUs are equal, so wondering also how that plays into it?

Utilization of ICU beds is written into hospital disaster preparedness policy (assuming a JCAHO hospital). Keep in mind not all Covid 19 patients will require ICU level care, and not all ICU patients are Covid patients.
The problem in the smallest hospitals is how to separate that. One option is to actually transfer your few ICU covid patients to a larger town with a dedicated Covid 19 ICU (separate ventilation system, etc). You run the risk of exposing the healthcare workers doing the transport, but it's an option on the table.
This whole pandemic is really showing off the weaknesses in a fractured healthcare delivery system.

And maybe wave his magic wand and create enough appropriate Dr.'s, Nurses, ICU Specialists, folks that run the "hundreds if not thousands" of vents we have "stockpiled", etc. It's a hell of a lot of strain on the just-in-time system, and we will not be getting a lot of help from our neighbor states that have undergone this massive uptick. Oh, and let's not forget about the folks who are not making payments to mortgages (Hey, Gateway, how are you helping? Really?) and other debt... more homeless? We had better get "personally responsible" PDQ.

Utilization of ICU beds is written into hospital disaster preparedness policy (assuming a JCAHO hospital). Keep in mind not all Covid 19 patients will require ICU level care, and not all ICU patients are Covid patients.
The problem in the smallest hospitals is how to separate that. One option is to actually transfer your few ICU covid patients to a larger town with a dedicated Covid 19 ICU (separate ventilation system, etc). You run the risk of exposing the healthcare workers doing the transport, but it's an option on the table.
This whole pandemic is really showing off the weaknesses in a fractured healthcare delivery system.

Thanks for the info, and yes, showing off the weaknesses of not only our healthcare system, but the entire capitalist structure our country is built on.

Net hospitalizations went up by 34 today.

5.2% positive test rate.

Utilization of ICU beds is written into hospital disaster preparedness policy (assuming a JCAHO hospital). Keep in mind not all Covid 19 patients will require ICU level care, and not all ICU patients are Covid patients.
The problem in the smallest hospitals is how to separate that. One option is to actually transfer your few ICU covid patients to a larger town with a dedicated Covid 19 ICU (separate ventilation system, etc). You run the risk of exposing the healthcare workers doing the transport, but it's an option on the table.
This whole pandemic is really showing off the weaknesses in a fractured healthcare delivery system.

The fact that we need sick people for hospitals to make a profit and stay open is a very messed up problem.

As for ICUs, that’s an issue that contributes to the problems and deaths with this. People like to point out that “shutting stuff down kills people because suicides”, but often those same people ignore the fact that an over stressed healthcare system will lead to increases in deaths from many other diseases.

The fact that we need sick people for hospitals to make a profit and stay open is a very messed up problem.

As for ICUs, that’s an issue that contributes to the problems and deaths with this. People like to point out that “shutting stuff down kills people because suicides”, but often those same people ignore the fact that an over stressed healthcare system will lead to increases in deaths from many other diseases.

They provide a service. If services are not being provided, how can a profit be justified?

They provide a service. If services are not being provided, how can a profit be justified?

If the fire department doesn’t have calls, they are sitting around in the stations getting paid to polish the trucks. But when needed the service is provided, and no profit. That’s how the world runs most of the health care systems.

If the fire department doesn’t have calls, they are sitting around in the stations getting paid to polish the trucks. But when needed the service is provided, and no profit. That’s how the world runs most of the health care systems.

that is also why the best surgeons in this country have lots of foreign patients that pay cash .

Tulsa going with a mask requirement as soon as Wednesday, Holt just tweeted that there's a meeting on Thursday to discuss a similar measure in OKC

https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1281658756405829634

If the fire department doesn’t have calls, they are sitting around in the stations getting paid to polish the trucks. But when needed the service is provided, and no profit. That’s how the world runs most of the health care systems.

I've long believed that hospitals (not surgeons, doctors, radiology techs, people in general) need to be not-for-profit here in the US.

I've long believed that hospitals (not surgeons, doctors, radiology techs, people in general) need to be not-for-profit here in the US.

Just to be clear though, even going non profit it doesn't mean hospitals would just staff tons of unnecessary people sitting around waiting for a major health event. Even fire departments staff based on typical projection of needs; not based on responding to a 9/11 level disaster. So yeah, they'll have people sitting around being paid to polish, but that's still just a specific number of people that are on shift at that moment. Efficiency still will matter.

Tulsa going with a mask requirement as soon as Wednesday, Holt just tweeted that there's a meeting on Thursday to discuss a similar measure in OKC

https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1281658756405829634

will be interesting to see if anyone votes against it

Holt issued all types of unilateral edicts regarding the Covid-19 situation (complete shutdown and reopening of businesses, curfews) but is now passing the buck to City Council on the mask issue claiming he is only "1 vote of 9". Certainly his prerogative but a purely political move to deflect heat regardless of what is decided.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020a.jpg

Net hospitalizations went up by 34 today.

5.2% positive test rate.

It can get a lot worse. It's 33% in AZ. NY peaked at 50%.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/hety91/arizona_testing_on_tuesday_has_33_positive_rate/

Just to be clear though, even going non profit it doesn't mean hospitals would just staff tons of unnecessary people sitting around waiting for a major health event. Even fire departments staff based on typical projection of needs; not based on responding to a 9/11 level disaster. So yeah, they'll have people sitting around being paid to polish, but that's still just a specific number of people that are on shift at that moment. Efficiency still will matter.

Yes, agreed, but the just-in-time model and what we're doing is not working. Read a story a few days ago about how hospitals keep soooooooooooooooo much secret WRT how much procedures cost for this insurance company, that insurance company, this hospital, that one, uninsured, ad nauseum that it's clear it's working for nobody except the insurance companies and hospital conglomerates. Here it is, horrible to read, but worth it.

https://www.alternet.org/2020/07/why-hospitals-keep-their-prices-secret/

Holt issued all types of unilateral edicts regarding the Covid-19 situation (complete shutdown and reopening of businesses, curfews) but is now passing the buck to City Council claiming he is only "1 vote of 9". Certainly his prerogative but a purely political move to deflect heat regardless of what is decided.

...

When I wrote Cooper, I told him that Trump, Stitt and Holt have failed us, so they need to step up. I used to think Holt was one of the good guys, but not anymore.

When I wrote Cooper, I told him that Trump, Stitt and Holt have failed us, so they need to step up. I used to think Holt was one of the good guys, but not anymore.

One of the good guys as long as he agrees with you? If he veers off your holy path at all, he loses your respect? I think he has done well. He knows businesses can't afford to close again, as much as this board wants them to. He also knows hastily enacting a mask mandates will get recall petitions against him, like in Norman. Just my opinion.

The controversy over mandatory mask wear is the height of ridiculousness. It's been a lot worse assault upon personal freedom and enjoyment when this all started. Thunder couldn't play any more. The Cher concert and all other concerts were canceled. Bars, restaurants, movie theaters and unessential businesses were shut down by the government. People couldn't make a living. The government compounded things by being unable to process the onslaught of unemployment claims. Yet, after all of that some people want to stir the pot over being required to wear a mask? May God help us.

So folks, please wear a mask when in public. Surely you and I don't want to return to another period of closed businesses and further lasting uncertainty as to when games and concerts can restart. If things don't improve by mid August, it may be doubtful that schools and colleges can safely resume classes in person.

One of the good guys as long as he agrees with you? If he veers off your holy path at all, he loses your respect? I think he has done well. He knows businesses can't afford to close again, as much as this board wants them to. He also knows hastily enacting a mask mandates will get recall petitions against him, like in Norman. Just my opinion.

Anybody that doesn't mandate masks in the current environment such as the one OKC is currently experiencing and passes the buck is not a good guy, he's shown his colors. This is/was a test and he's failed. As Pete said, he's passed down unilateral mandates before, but then just went "Eh, not my problem, talk to the horseshoe".

He knows businesses can't afford to close again, as much as this board wants them to.

I *hate* this type of comment.

Characterizing a site of thousands in an attempt to justify your own position.

And this isn't even remotely true as I've yet to see *anyone* here advocate for shutting down businesses. Just an outrageous strawman argument.

The controversy over mandatory mask wear is the height of ridiculousness. It's been a lot worse assault upon personal freedom and enjoyment when this all started. Thunder couldn't play any more. The Cher concert and all other concerts were canceled. Bar, restaurants, and unessential businesses were shut down by the government. People couldn't make a living. The government compounded things by being unable to process the onslaught of unemployment claims.

So folks, please wear a mask when in public. Surely you and I don't want to return to another period of closed businesses and further lasting uncertainty as to when games and concerts can restart. If things don't improve by mid August, it may be doubtful that schools and colleges can safely resume classes in person.

Don't forget Elton John.... * grumble grumble grumble* I should have been sitting in my floor seats 5 days ago.

Ya kind of felt like Holt is taking the plan on not stating his opinion so if it goes bad either way he can say well I was just one vote! Pretty lame leadership from Holt.

Ya kind of felt like Holt is taking the plan on not stating his opinion so if it goes bad either way he can say well I was just one vote! Pretty lame leadership from Holt.

He has also already talked to City Council about this and likely knows where they will all vote on a mask decision.

I *hate* this type of comment.

Characterizing a site of thousands in an attempt to justify your own position.

And this isn't even remotely true as I've yet to see *anyone* here advocate for shutting down businesses. Just an outrageous strawman argument.

Agreed, I'm not advocating for a shutdown, just everybody wearing masks, that's probably literally all it would take to keep things going and the infections to go down.

He has also already talked to City Council about this and likely knows where they will all vote on a mask decision.

He could take a page from the Tulsa playbook and say " if Dr. Dart (McGough for OKC) says we need to do item x (masks, public hand washing stations, free testing) due to a public health emergency, and I am going to follow the advice of experts".
Note this tactic works best when your public health experts are, in fact, scientists.

Anybody that doesn't mandate masks in the current environment such as the one OKC is currently experiencing and passes the buck is not a good guy, he's shown his colors. This is/was a test and he's failed. As Pete said, he's passed down unilateral mandates before, but then just went "Eh, not my problem, talk to the horseshoe".

Yep. Is he just hoping that Cooper, Hamon, Nice, and a stray other council member help seal the deal? I don't understand the logic of taking the dramatic action of shutting everything down and banning gatherings, etc. early on in the pandemic (granted everywhere was), only to weasel out of having to make a simple decision on the one way that we could more safely reopen for all as we accumulate 6-8X the number of cases per day than when he'd taken the drastic action....

Yep. Is he just hoping that Cooper, Hamon, Nice, and a stray other council member help seal the deal?

Anything requires a majority so 5 votes would be needed.

I think it's more likely that he has the votes to reject a mask requirement.

From https://twitter.com/Hi_Dr_Nick in response to Holt's "I'm only one vote of 9" tweet:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020b.png

Also from https://twitter.com/Hi_Dr_Nick:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020c.png

From https://twitter.com/Hi_Dr_Nick in response to Holt's "I'm only one vote of 9" tweet:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020b.png

Is Oklahoma in a state of emergency (Well, OKC)? Who would declare that? I thpught the state removed that declaration, but could be wrong.

I know this is a month old, but I personally know of 3 people this has happened to. So, I guess I'm posting this as more of a warning.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200610094112.htm


Using RT-PCR test results, along with reported time of exposure to the virus or time of onset of measurable symptoms such as fever, cough and breathing problems, the researchers calculated the probability that someone infected with SARS-CoV-2 would have a negative test result when they had the virus infection. In the published studies, health care providers collected nasal and throat samples -from patients and noted the time of virus exposure or symptom -onset and sample collection.

From this data, the Johns Hopkins researchers calculated daily false-negative rates, and have made their statistical code and data publicly available so results can be updated as more data are published.

The researchers estimated that those tested with SARS-CoV-2 in the four days after infection were 67% more likely to test negative, even if they had the virus. When the average patient began displaying symptoms of the virus, the false-negative rate was 38%. The test performed best eight days after infection (on average, three days after symptom onset), but even then had a false negative rate of 20%, meaning one in five people who had the virus had a negative test result.

Is Oklahoma in a state of emergency (Well, OKC)? Who would declare that? I thpught the state removed that declaration, but could be wrong.

The MAYOR declares the state of emergency.

He did this back in March when he started issuing edicts about business shutdowns and the like.

Holt issued all types of unilateral edicts regarding the Covid-19 situation (complete shutdown and reopening of businesses, curfews) but is now passing the buck to City Council on the mask issue claiming he is only "1 vote of 9". Certainly his prerogative but a purely political move to deflect heat regardless of what is decided.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020a.jpgHe said during his last press conference that his emergency powers were expiring and that the council was going to have to take over decision making.

Agreed, I'm not advocating for a shutdown, just everybody wearing masks, that's probably literally all it would take to keep things going and the infections to go down.

Yes!!

Also from https://twitter.com/Hi_Dr_Nick:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/holt071020c.png

What does that "trajectory" percent reflect?

Has the DHS's website removed the ability to see bed availability by facility?

What does that "trajectory" percent reflect?

New Cases This Week vs. New Cases Last Week

He said during his last press conference that his emergency powers were expiring and that the council was going to have to take over decision making.

He's letting them expire.

New Cases This Week vs. New Cases Last Week

Thanks! I figured it was something like that, but the number was too high for day to day.

He's letting them expire.True. But maybe the council will grow some???