Shake Shack

The CEO decided it is best to return the $10 million loan after hearing the paycheck protection program ran out of money.

Shake Shack

The CEO decided it is best to return the $10 million loan after hearing the paycheck protection program ran out of money.

If we had one here, I'd buy a burger for lunch as a sign of solidarity.

Numbers updated for Monday:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/corona42020a.jpg

Shake Shack

The CEO decided it is best to return the $10 million loan after hearing the paycheck protection program ran out of money.

Lol, gotta love that spin. My take on it is that corporations which make billions of dollars a year scammed millions out of a fund intended to keep mom and pop businesses from going under in another example of corporate greed. You can blame the legislators who were lobbied to create this loophole, the administration that didn't properly manage it, the huge banks which rushed these loans through for their business clients, or all of the above.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-house-gop-face-heat-after-hotel-restaurant-chains-helped-run-small-business-program-dry/

Yeah using one crazy outlier to advocate for more government control is a bit disturbing.

It is not one outlier. There is evidence suggesting that people who are not yet exhibiting symptoms are more contagious right before the symptoms set in.

So this is not a matter of people making some libertarian choice, or free will, because people are unwitting spreaders of this virus, such as the minister from the Tulsa area who traveled to give a revival in Greer County, setting off a chain of some 50 cases and five deaths. Then, he went to Wagoner County and did the same, which is now over 100 cases. That is one guy.

I'm not sure exactly what you are advocating exactly but I think a lot of people are having trouble understanding that even if the governor says, "We are open for business" people are not going to flock back to restaurants, concerts, church, etc.

People and businesses are going to have to make major adjustments to survive, regardless of government policy. But Oklahoma now has more cases and deaths than Tokyo, which is enjoying its own resurgence in cases.

What do people think is going to happen if everyone suddenly goes back to Penn Square Mall, and Chili's?

The history of the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic in Oklahoma City is fascinating to read. It is eerie how similar it seems to this moment. The city at the time had an initial wave of cases in the spring, and OKC did a lot of similar things then that we did during this pandemic. Then, when cases began to decline in the summer, people went back to their regular lives, and it was the second wave of the virus, which crested in late summer through the fall, that killed millions in the United States, and several thousand in OKC.

So there is historical precedent to this. Yes, it sucks, but trying to deny the reality of this is just obtuse and frankly insensitive to the people who will have to deal with the sick people in the hospitals, doctor's offices, grocery stores, etc.

One choir rehearsal in rural Washington state led to some 30 transmissions and 2 deaths.

Can you imagine what will happen when Governor Stitt says it's OK to return to the megachurches?

Lol, gotta love that spin. My take on it is that corporations which make billions of dollars a year scammed millions out of a fund intended to keep mom and pop businesses from going under in another example of corporate greed. You can blame the legislators who were lobbied to create this loophole, the administration that didn't properly manage it, the huge banks which rushed these loans through for their business clients, or all of the above.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/white-house-gop-face-heat-after-hotel-restaurant-chains-helped-run-small-business-program-dry/

Even so, they took the correct action and that's commendable. Just because congress was effectively lobbied, does not necessarily mean that Shake Shack or specific others took part in the lobbying.

In this time, I'm going to choose to believe in the more charitable interpretation of these actions, if the companies actions also appear to be in kind (i.e. doing it now, as soon as possible, and not 3 weeks from now).

If they are making definitive predictions about long-term health impacts when we have no long-term data for them to base it off it, it's a mistruth at best. Maybe they'll be right, but they cannot know for certain at this time.

And my lie judgement was about the masks which is why it was in that paragraph, not the long-term impacts of the virus which I covered in the first paragraph. What other conclusion can be made about the flip-flop on whether masks should be worn by the general public? Either they were lying then or they are lying now.

Unfortunately they have to make predictions. We need their predictions. They may not be right but this is not just about fatalities. There are some weird cases of people having neurotoxic reactions, losing memory and becoming confused, organ failure, and permanent lung damage. These are from folks who were not on ventilators.

I will never understand why some people insist on minimizing and downplaying things that have enormous impact on people's lives. Perhaps it is just a psychological defense mechanism so people can go about their lives free from guilt or worry.

I find it especially troublesome when I read the weird undertones about "underlying conditions" and "they lived in a rest home,' and "people over 65." OK, so what? They deserve to die? Is that the message?

There are people of a certain political persuasion who are more likely to say things like this --- right up until it afflicts them or a member of their family -- and then it becomes a major national priority.

Thats one way to look at it, but I donÂ’t think itÂ’s the right one. Though I donÂ’t agree with you very often so that probably shouldnÂ’t be surprising. It isnÂ’t individual selfishness, itÂ’s an unwillingness to give up freedoms because of the slippery slope it creates. I will never agree to anything like what you are suggesting and the massive invasion of privacy that creates...and I say that as a Republican with Republicans in control of most of the government currently. Mandatory tracking of individuals by using their cell phones is just not a box I want opened.

I understand the concern. Having said that, you realize it's already happening, right? Tech companies are tracking, extracting, and selling your personal data everyday. The government has access to much of this data too. That's what the whole Edward Snowden controversy was about. Again, I am an activist for data privacy, but if people want to, for example, re-gain any semblance of a public life then phone tracing is one of the best solutions. Other countries have set it up with certain limits. If you decide that it's not worth it then you're prioritizing personal data privacy over many other rights (e.g., ability to go in public), public health, sickness and health, and economic activity. So, while taking a stance one right that already is being violated, you're forgoing many other rights. To me, the trade-off makes sense. We should use our energy to ensure phone/health tracking is done in a way that ensures long-term privacy.

Interesting background information:

"The Governor and Oklahoma State Health Department are using modeling data from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington in Seattle.

The model uses reported deaths from all over the world to project hospital surges.

The IHME model has been widely criticized because it is a statistical model and does not use any information about transmission rates and has no basis in epidemiology.

The model has been criticized by many in the science community due to the volatility in its predictions.

A critique of the model was in the Annals of Internal Medicine published Wednesday, the same day the Governor’s office started widely distributing its model:

One group of international data scientists found the model to be inaccurate in 70% of states in its predictions of death rates, the main metric it uses to model hospital use.

One academic with extensive experience in epidemic modeling criticized Oklahoma’s citation-absent model.

“I think big problems are too much information and a lack of context for any specific result. A model is only as good as its assumptions and data, both of which should be available,” said Dr. Sean Laverty, who holds a doctorate in mathematical biology. He has done research in the mathematics of epidemiology."

https://freepressokc.com/flawed-scientific-model-basis-for-governor-stitts-reopening-plans/

When the model was shown to be wrong in virtually every respect, it's use should have been discontinued. When the OHD published it's projections based on the same model plus two additional days of real world data, it was shown to be absurdly flawed upon release. I'm no statistical expert, but I was able to do some basic analysis on the real data and realize their peak projections had almost no basis in mathematical reality. And each additional day of real data made it more evident.

When the model was shown to be wrong in virtually every respect, it's use should have been discontinued. When the OHD published it's projections based on the same model plus two additional days of real world data, it was shown to be absurdly flawed upon release. I'm no statistical expert, but I was able to do some basic analysis on the real data and realize their peak projections had almost no basis in mathematical reality. And each additional day of real data made it more evident.

I think they projected the infection rate correctly, but the mortality rate was way off.

I think they projected the infection rate correctly, but the mortality rate was way off.

Nope. The infection rate was one of the worst offenders. They were projecting *hundreds* of daily cases in April leading toward the 9,300 projected cases by May
1.

When the model was shown to be wrong in virtually every respect, it's use should have been discontinued. When the OHD published it's projections based on the same model plus two additional days of real world data, it was shown to be absurdly flawed upon release. I'm no statistical expert, but I was able to do some basic analysis on the real data and realize their peak projections had almost no basis in mathematical reality. And each additional day of real data made it more evident.

Very true!!

Nope. The infection rate was one of the worst offenders. They were projecting *hundreds* of daily cases in April leading toward the 9,300 projected cases by May
1.

Those are the ones tested. My guess is that there is a large untested population that has it or has had it, but unless you are old or overweight or have other conditions you typically do not die from the disease.

At this point would it be cheaper to quarantine the old old, obese and sick, and let the young and healthy work until they come up with a vaccine? Dan, what am I missing from your point of view?

Those are the ones tested. My guess is that there is a large untested population that has it or has had it, but unless you are old or overweight or have other conditions you typically do not die from the disease.

At this point would it be cheaper to quarantine the old old, obese and sick, and let the young and healthy work until they come up with a vaccine? Dan, what am I missing from your point of view?

I've been saying this for a while. Let the under 45 crowd out and keep the older crowd in. Give them the extra unemployment money and extra checks . Let the younger crowd get herd immunity.

I've been saying this for a while. Let the under 45 crowd out and keep the older crowd in. Give them the extra unemployment money and extra checks . Let the younger crowd get herd immunity.

Yes, though I would add to it those that are young but in the high-risk category and potentially caretakers if they must be in constant close proximity to any of the above.

https://www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2020/04/tag-Coronavirus-Lungeschaden-Forschung-Uniklinik-Innsbruck-6708e11e-28dc-4843-a760-e7f926ace61c.html?fbclid=IwAR3nNrZcHfJyuilDzk3yzvb 3ySqmZ6I7ON_EtWQVmtWEGBTnI8jkgtyrRrY

Article is in German but the translation Google provided read as pretty clean English. Apparently there are reports that people who recovered with even just mild symptoms have some amount of permanent lung damage.


In the clinic, doctors have treated dozens of coronavirus sufferers in the past few weeks, from symptom-free spreaders to intensive care patients on the heart-lung machine. Among them were six active divers, all of whom did not have to be treated in hospital, but cured themselves in home quarantines. All of them were not severe cases, their illnesses were five to six weeks ago and they are considered to have recovered. But they can no longer dive. "The damage to the lungs is irreversible," said Hartig in an interview with the APA.

"This is shocking, we don't understand what's going on here. They are probably lifelong patients, so it doesn't matter whether they dive again or not," said the doctor. The bad news was made clear by lung CTs. "They didn't get any better at all in imaging," said Hartig. "As an emergency doctor with 20 years of experience, you swallow when you see something like this in a 40-year-old patient."

In the control after several weeks, two patients showed significant oxygen deficiency when under stress as a typical sign of persistent lung shunt. In two, the bronchi were still very excitable when under stress, as in asthmatics. Four out of the six divers still showed impressive lung changes on the control CT. "I even called on the X-ray to see if they had swapped the pictures because a healthy patient was sitting in front of us," said Hartig. "When they saw their own pictures, it was shocking for them," said the doctor. "You have to check regularly with such lung damage."

Numbers just updated for Tuesday:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/corona042120a.jpg

21 deaths today? That is an unpleasantly sharp uptick.

21 deaths today? That is an unpleasantly sharp uptick.

The report said 5 deaths in the last 24 hours, so the remainder must be casualties that came earlier but are now attributed to the virus.

I hoping that is due to delayed reporting from other sources.

I would love to question if the reported deaths are:

1. Died from CV
2. Died with CV

I believe there is more money if CV is listed than if not. Challenge is we are all using these numbers to make big decisions so its fair to ask about the data imo

I hoping that is due to delayed reporting from other sources.

Probably more likely what Pete said above.

I would love to question if the reported deaths are:

1. Died from CV
2. Died with CV

I believe there is more money if CV is listed than if not. Challenge is we are all using these numbers to make big decisions so its fair to ask about the data imo

These are deaths attributed to Covid-19.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Not only deaths, but positives and hospitalizations up by a higher % than in recent days.
To early for resuming elective surgeries in my opinion

21 deaths today? That is an unpleasantly sharp uptick.

Fox 25 mid day news, said most of them were in eastern Oklahoma, only one in Ok County, and 2 in Kay County.

It almost looks like Oklahoma has found a sweet spot where we've got a lot of people out and about and communal contagion is low to moderate and we're not seeing any sort of rapid spike, but we're also not seeing a recovery where we move to negligible increases in cases/hospitalizations/deaths.

These are deaths attributed to Covid-19.

Sorry to disappoint you.

? What does disappoint have to do with my question? I hate any deaths. I know we use the numbers for many things plus will they be used to make reopen decisions? I think its important to know in more detail if CV caused the death. I learned long ago to question things and thats all I’m doing. I’m not calling anyone out or saying anyone is lying. I just want to know officially how and who is making these determinations and what criteria they are using.

Is there any official place to see the official way they decide if its CV or not?

If my questions are not allowed then please retract them

I've been saying this for a while. Let the under 45 crowd out and keep the older crowd in. Give them the extra unemployment money and extra checks . Let the younger crowd get herd immunity.

This will lead to disaster and another shelter-in-place. First, there is no evidence that a society can effectively segregate young and old people. Second, we don't know who is vulnerable. Many people have health problems of which they are unaware of. Moreover, obesity is a primary cause for COVID-19 for young people. They should be considered immunocompromised. And a huge number of young Oklahomans are obese. Third, people seem to be misunderstanding many of these models. They're not predictors, they offer a range of possibilities. Many models offered worst-case forecasts based on people making few changes in their lives. Instead, people have made unprecedented changes to their lives that has had generally good results. Now, people are using the policies that were successful to say this has all been overhyped.

There are good models for transitions, but much of the U.S. is going to fail at them because we're rushing things back before we have the testing and tracing infrastructure to keep this under control. There is no safe way to open restaurants and gyms with widespread transmission that will likely lead to a worse wave. People need to quit making decision based on anxieties and start using evidence or else it will end up counterproductive.

This happened.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5e9b473dc5b6ea335d5c6981?ncid=engmodushpmg00000 003&fbclid=IwAR3wIuiVPhsEIT-pIPiV8ZIhcNLtiXSXlIDWAn0rpGKyzTu94qpgnLyvREw

In pictures of Alex Jones at the event, from the expressions on his face, the grimaces, he looked like he was wondering if he should even be there, such as the picture of him shaking a man's hand. People like him should have at least had the good sense to wear a mask, but maybe doing that would distract from trying to get back to normal. Anyway, if he comes down with the virus, I will be wondering what if only he had a mask on. If he doesn't come down with it, I won't be surprised he claims his snake oil saved him.

? What does disappoint have to do with my question?


I believe there is more money if CV is listed than if not.

When you hint at conspiracy theories that COVID deniers espouse don't be surprise if your intentions are questioned.

When you hint at conspiracy theories that COVID deniers espouse don't be surprise if your intentions are questioned.

Say what? It was reported already by MSM that other states are doing this. Its not me making stuff up.

So its fair to ask how Oklahoma is reporting. Why is everyone so on edge? AllI want to know is what Oklahoma is using to define CV deaths.

Here:

CDC tells states to add 'probable' coronavirus cases to death toll

NEW YORK — The U.S. tally of coronavirus cases and deaths could soon jump because federal health officials will now count illnesses that are not confirmed by lab testing.

There was already a big rise in New York City, where officials this week started counting people who had never tested positive for the coronavirus. That caused the city’s death count to jump by more than 3,700 on Tuesday.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/cdc-tells-states-add-probable-coronavirus-cases-de/

Numbers just updated for Tuesday:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/corona042120a.jpg

Biggest jump in cases since the 9th. 21 deaths. Just wait over the next two weeks after all the dumb Okies who think this is over and who have been out and about start transmitting it.

I don’t think we will peak in Oklahoma until sometime in May or June, once people finally realize this is an actual threat. Their negligence will just drag this out for months.

And no, healthy people under 45 are not safe. My work colleague is 40 and healthy with no underlying conditions and she has had this over a month. She said it is worse than any flu or illness she has ever had. She can barely speak for 10 minutes without losing her breath and having to lay down. Sadly, I wonder if she will be like the divers in that German study, permanently damaged by this, with permanent lung damage.

Please listen to medical experts and scientists not Tea Party organizers and Fox News commentators .

Are Hospitals up cause of Easter? 8 days would be the right time frame most start showing symptoms day 5-12. Also the Checks came in the mail last Wednesday. I'm really interested in the numbers to see if they stay high cause of these couple of factors.

Biggest jump in cases since the 9th. 21 deaths. Just wait over the next two weeks after all the dumb Okies who think this is over and who have been out and about start transmitting it.

I don’t think we will peak in Oklahoma until sometime in May or June, once people finally realize this is an actual threat. Their negligence will just drag this out for months.

And no, healthy people under 45 are not safe. My work colleague is 40 and healthy with no underlying conditions and she has had this over a month. She said it is worse than any flu or illness she has ever had. She can barely speak for 10 minutes without losing her breath and having to lay down. Sadly, I wonder if she will be like the divers in that German study, permanently damaged by this, with permanent lung damage.

Please listen to medical experts and scientists not Tea Party organizers and Fox News commentators .

I don't understand how negligence is drawing this out. What I've seen circulating since early on has been very clear: because we don't and won't have a vaccine in time, at least 60% of people WILL get this virus and the only question outstanding is when they will get it. The reason for this is because the virus spreads unwittingly with ease. We can attempt contact tracing all we want, but unless we have 900,000,000 rapid result tests in the wing and a really low margin of error plan to mark a Day 0, we have 0% chance of hindering the spread of this until enough people cannot contract the virus due to built up immunity or a vaccine

It is never going to happen in the West. We are not prepared for something like this and never were, not with all the prep that was done in the previous 5 administrations. We cannot betray our ingrained values quick enough to effectively quell a "stealth virus".

There is no removing the virus from circulation only reducing the velocity of circulation. The velocity in Oklahoma is clearly at a manageable pace. I'm not saying re-open everything tomorrow, but the people out and about for the last 3 weeks have not flooded our hospitals. Additionally, a lot of data should be coming out in the next two or three weeks that gives us what we need to create the most effective policies of re-opening.

In pictures of Alex Jones at the event, from the expressions on his face, the grimaces, he looked like he was wondering if he should even be there, such as the picture of him shaking a man's hand. People like him should have at least had the good sense to wear a mask, but maybe doing that would distract from trying to get back to normal. Anyway, if he comes down with the virus, I will be wondering what if only he had a mask on. If he doesn't come down with it, I won't be surprised he claims his snake oil saved him.

Maybe it would be OK if he caught it?

Biggest jump in cases since the 9th. 21 deaths. Just wait over the next two weeks after all the dumb Okies who think this is over and who have been out and about start transmitting it.

I don’t think we will peak in Oklahoma until sometime in May or June, once people finally realize this is an actual threat. Their negligence will just drag this out for months.

And no, healthy people under 45 are not safe. My work colleague is 40 and healthy with no underlying conditions and she has had this over a month. She said it is worse than any flu or illness she has ever had. She can barely speak for 10 minutes without losing her breath and having to lay down. Sadly, I wonder if she will be like the divers in that German study, permanently damaged by this, with permanent lung damage.

Please listen to medical experts and scientists not Tea Party organizers and Fox News commentators .

Do you really think it's just people in Oklahoma are getting out and about? Our news is so NYC and DC centric as to make many think what you are seeingbon the national news is how it is everywhere.

Our very science-oriented GAY DEMOCRAT Governor in CO just announced he doesn't plan to extend the shelter-in-place for the state after April 30 because it's unnecessarily keeping people away from jobs all across rural CO where there is little to no virus being reported. He also acknowledges there are many other jobs where separation and distancing are probably adequate.

They are formulating plans to extend shelter-in-place by county or big city by big city and require masks be worn by everyone. They are also making it clear there may be flare-ups that require shut-down later on.

Even the somewhat liberal hosts on CNBC this morning were making many of the same comments that in less densely populated areas, there should be consideration given to gradual opening.

So next time you think those dumb Oklahoma conservatives are the only ones who are looking to end shelter-in-place in their location, think again. There is also the choice that if you don't think it should end, just stay home. I don't plan to get out much more than now for a few more weeks.

Just curious as to what relevance the sexuality(in caps no less) of the Governor has to do with shelter in place?

Per NPR reporting, Cleveland clinic says it has stopped using Abbott labs and DiaSorin tests as the false negative rate falls below 95percentile. Abbott disputes the claim. Cleveland clinic doctor says he plans to publish the data.
Here in Oklahoma, everyone is using different tests, some Abbott, some Cepheid. It will be interesting to see where all the sensitivities and specificities end up. Read somewhere that only 4 labs had EUA now for FDA for rapid assay, but they are aware of 98 different rapid tests being used experimentally.

I’m with mugofbeer. If everything gets opened up I’m waiting a while to see how it goes before I get out much.

Just curious as to what relevance the sexuality(in caps no less) of the Governor has to do with shelter in place?

To further illustrate, for the poster who said those who wanted the shelter-in-place order modified were "dumb Okies", Gov. Polis is the furthest thing from a bible-totin', FOXNEWS obsessed right winger who acknowledges it's silly to force people to shelter in place in areas where the virus simply isn't present. Dont get all offended at it.

To further illustrate, for the poster who said those who wanted the shelter-in-place order modified were "dumb Okies", Gov. Polis is the furthest thing from a bible-totin', FOXNEWS obsessed right winger who acknowledges it's silly to force people to shelter in place in areas where the virus simply isn't present. Dont get all offended at it.

Nothing in that post is illustrative of a person's sexuality being connected to theology, television news viewing habits, intelligence, or geographic locale. It does say more about the author of the post. Nor is saying GAY Governor in anyway an answer to "dumb okies" There was nothing by that poster about Fox, religion or other descriptors you offered up.

I’m with mugofbeer. If everything gets opened up I’m waiting a while to see how it goes before I get out much.

I think a fair amount of folks are like that. I know my wife and I were talking yesterday about what we'd do if either of our jobs started wanting folks to come back in sometime in May. I'd be shocked if my work did it, but she's willing to quit rather than go back, because I'm in such a high risk segment of the population. I expect it'll be months after everything opens up before I'm comfortable being out among crowds.

I think a fair amount of folks are like that. I know my wife and I were talking yesterday about what we'd do if either of our jobs started wanting folks to come back in sometime in May. I'd be shocked if my work did it, but she's willing to quit rather than go back, because I'm in such a high risk segment of the population. I expect it'll be months after everything opens up before I'm comfortable being out among crowds.

I really do see it being two segments of people when it partially opens up.

The people who just go back to normal life and blow this whole thing off, maybe get sick maybe not. Then you have people who are going to wait several months to see how it all shakes out. I tend to fall in the later camp but am lucky to be able to work from home until at least August.

A lot of folks are conveniently forgetting that it's about to get hot AF in Oklahoma.

We'll be out mowing the lawn and enjoying the Australia Effect soon enough: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/.

In places where they are starting to reopen, consumers are generally staying away.

To me, that's the worst outcome. You still have a very high risk of things going wrong and possibly going back into lockdown again instead of just riding this out another month or two (the economic damage is already done IMO)... And then you don't have enough business to pay your people anyway.

I've been ringing the economic alarm bells since the very beginning but as I said, at this point the economy is already thrashed for a while so might as well do things right and then try and get past this.

And I say all this with the very strong reality of completely losing my business.

Say what? It was reported already by MSM that other states are doing this. Its not me making stuff up.

So its fair to ask how Oklahoma is reporting. Why is everyone so on edge? AllI want to know is what Oklahoma is using to define CV deaths.

Here:

CDC tells states to add 'probable' coronavirus cases to death toll

NEW YORK — The U.S. tally of coronavirus cases and deaths could soon jump because federal health officials will now count illnesses that are not confirmed by lab testing.

There was already a big rise in New York City, where officials this week started counting people who had never tested positive for the coronavirus. That caused the city’s death count to jump by more than 3,700 on Tuesday.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/cdc-tells-states-add-probable-coronavirus-cases-de/

The article you cite merely enforces that hospitals are following the federal guidelines. Your original post said you believed that hospitals got more money if they said the cause of death was "from" COVID rather than "with" COVID implying that hospitals were fudging their numbers to get more money.

If you'd like to fact check that conspiracy theory here's an article for you:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/21/facebook-posts/Fact-check-Hospitals-COVID-19-payments/

Biggest jump in cases since the 9th. 21 deaths. Just wait over the next two weeks after all the dumb Okies who think this is over and who have been out and about start transmitting it.

I don’t think we will peak in Oklahoma until sometime in May or June, once people finally realize this is an actual threat. Their negligence will just drag this out for months.

And no, healthy people under 45 are not safe. My work colleague is 40 and healthy with no underlying conditions and she has had this over a month. She said it is worse than any flu or illness she has ever had. She can barely speak for 10 minutes without losing her breath and having to lay down. Sadly, I wonder if she will be like the divers in that German study, permanently damaged by this, with permanent lung damage.

Please listen to medical experts and scientists not Tea Party organizers and Fox News commentators .

Except that only 5 of those deaths actually happened yesterday with the rest spread out of the previous two weeks....but what does that matter when you find the perfect opportunity to use the wrong stat to tell all of us dumb okies who don’t agree with you how dumb we are, right?

In places where they are starting to reopen, consumers are generally staying away.

To me, that's the worst outcome. You still have a very high risk of things going wrong and possibly going back into lockdown again instead of just riding this out another month or two (the economic damage is already done IMO)... And then you don't have enough business to pay your people anyway.

I've been ringing the economic alarm bells since the very beginning but as I said, at this point the economy is already thrashed for a while so might as well do things right and then try and get past this.

And I say all this with the very strong reality of completely losing my business.I was going to go into a long essay of how I see this dilemma. Instead I”ll just put in a nutshell. I think when it comes to reopening I’m afraid we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

The article you cite merely enforces that hospitals are following the federal guidelines. Your original post said you believed that hospitals got more money if they said the cause of death was "from" COVID rather than "with" COVID implying that hospitals were fudging their numbers to get more money.

If you'd like to fact check that conspiracy theory here's an article for you:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/21/facebook-posts/Fact-check-Hospitals-COVID-19-payments/

The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life.

Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said the federal government is continuing to count the suspected COVID-19 deaths, despite other nations doing the opposite.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem," she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. "Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

"The intent is ... if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that," she added

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

Back to my original question. How does Oklahoma determine cause of death for Covid-19?

Just curious as to what relevance the sexuality(in caps no less) of the Governor has to do with shelter in place?

Clearly he’s not sheltering in place in a closet. Though I don’t think that was the point of mentioning his sexuality.

Do you really think it's just people in Oklahoma are getting out and about? Our news is so NYC and DC centric as to make many think what you are seeingbon the national news is how it is everywhere.

Our very science-oriented GAY DEMOCRAT Governor in CO just announced he doesn't plan to extend the shelter-in-place for the state after April 30 because it's unnecessarily keeping people away from jobs all across rural CO where there is little to no virus being reported. He also acknowledges there are many other jobs where separation and distancing are probably adequate.

They are formulating plans to extend shelter-in-place by county or big city by big city and require masks be worn by everyone. They are also making it clear there may be flare-ups that require shut-down later on.

Even the somewhat liberal hosts on CNBC this morning were making many of the same comments that in less densely populated areas, there should be consideration given to gradual opening.

So next time you think those dumb Oklahoma conservatives are the only ones who are looking to end shelter-in-place in their location, think again. There is also the choice that if you don't think it should end, just stay home. I don't plan to get out much more than now for a few more weeks.

I did not use the word conservative. I have looked at cases across the country, and Oklahoma is not faring well in comparison. Look at Oregon and Oklahoma's numbers as of today and the difference is significant. I love Oklahoma but we do have a lot of dumb people here who are seemingly oblivious to the world around them, and they are not all ideologically conservative if they have any ideology at all.

Discussing issues like this on the Internet is very difficult, even in this usually civil forum. It instantly becomes a black and white discussion with people jumping onto their ideological lane.

For God's sakes, read some of the tripe over the last few pages, the denial, etc. I find it harrowing. I read the mayor's daily FB posts and I see the most ridiculous, fact-free diatribes from people trolling him, every day. I suspect they are a very vocal minority if polling is to be believed.

I do not want to shelter in place for the rest of the year! I would rather not do it another month! But it is not at all clear that Oklahoma's cases are declining. We are not even meeting Trump's metrics for "reopening."

And let us not forget that in this "closing," we have people flocking to massive retail stores and Mathis Brothers. People act as if they have been locked away in a Soviet gulag in some sort of police state. Really? It seems only small restaurants and retailers and nail salons and small businesses were closed by Stitt. Virtually every other business in the state was deemed essential. Some closing.

Can we agree that this is a serious global health crisis? Can we agree that the answer to navigating this will require some trial and error, but strong purpose to prevent a catastrophe?

At the moment, some very vocal people act like we should be popping champagne corks and hitting the bars because it's all over. Nothing close to that is true. And a handful of rowdy nutcases circling City Hall waving "I Want a Haircut" signs doesn't change that.

Allow me to blow your mind: I think Oklahoma should listen to Trump's guidelines and follow them. If we do, we will not be "reopening" on April 30, more like May 15 in the best case scenario, and that is only if all of these "COVID MY ASS" people will find the discipline to stop infecting each other for a few more weeks.

Can we agree that this is a serious global health crisis?

I think this is the big issue. There are a bunch of people, even people on this board, who do not believe it is a big deal. Some are even insinuating that the deaths are being overreported for money.

I did not use the word conservative. I have looked at cases across the country, and Oklahoma is not faring well in comparison. Look at Oregon and Oklahoma's numbers as of today and the difference is significant. I love Oklahoma but we do have a lot of dumb people here who are seemingly oblivious to the world around them, and they are not all ideologically conservative if they have any ideology at all.

Discussing issues like this on the Internet is very difficult, even in this usually civil forum. It instantly becomes a black and white discussion with people jumping onto their ideological lane.

For God's sakes, read some of the tripe over the last few pages, the denial, etc. I find it harrowing. I read the mayor's daily FB posts and I see the most ridiculous, fact-free diatribes from people trolling him, every day. I suspect they are a very vocal minority if polling is to be believed.

I do not want to shelter in place for the rest of the year! I would rather not do it another month! But it is not at all clear that Oklahoma's cases are declining. We are not even meeting Trump's metrics for "reopening."

And let us not forget that in this "closing," we have people flocking to massive retail stores and Mathis Brothers. People act as if they have been locked away in a Soviet gulag in some sort of police state. Really? It seems only small restaurants and retailers and nail salons and small businesses were closed by Stitt. Virtually every other business in the state was deemed essential. Some closing.

Can we agree that this is a serious global health crisis? Can we agree that the answer to navigating this will require some trial and error, but strong purpose to prevent a catastrophe?

At the moment, some very vocal people act like we should be popping champagne corks and hitting the bars because it's all over. Nothing close to that is true. And a handful of rowdy nutcases circling City Hall waving "I Want a Haircut" signs doesn't change that.

Allow me to blow your mind: I think Oklahoma should listen to Trump's guidelines and follow them. If we do, we will not be "reopening" on April 30, more like May 15 in the best case scenario, and that is only if all of these "COVID MY ASS" people will find the discipline to stop infecting each other for a few more weeks.

You keep saying things like this but it is often you who makes some of the most inflammatory and political comments. You might want to take some of your own medicine on that one. People who disagree with you would be much more receptive to your opinions if you toned it down.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem," she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. "Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

"The intent is ... if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that," she added

Back to my original question. How does Oklahoma determine cause of death for Covid-19?

You are clearly trying to find a way to claim the death numbers are inflated... Why? To make the point the crisis is also inflated? Why else would you care about such technicalities? IMO, this is nothing but very thinly-veiled politics.

In the example above, it clearly states Covid-19 had caused someone to go to the ICU and they ended up dying. You are splitting hairs to try and claim that this somehow should not count as a virus-related death.

Most people who had AIDS died of pneumonia or other causes. This is the way diseases work.

A lot of folks are conveniently forgetting that it's about to get hot AF in Oklahoma.

We'll be out mowing the lawn and enjoying the Australia Effect soon enough: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/.

What is the Australia Effect? It's getting colder there...??

You are clearly trying to find a way to claim the death numbers are inflated... Why? To make the point the crisis is also inflated? Why else would you care about such technicalities? IMO, this is nothing but very thinly-veiled politics.

In the example above, it clearly states Covid-19 had caused someone to go to the ICU and they ended up dying. You are splitting hairs to try and claim that this somehow should not count as a virus-related death.

Most people who had AIDS died of pneumonia or other causes. This is the way diseases work.

It seems to me we use/used the numbers to shut down businesses. If numbers are being used as gospel to keep business shut down its fair to ask how we determine.

For example our numbers look good/declining and we have these 1 or 2 day big spikes. Is this going back and reclassifying deaths labeled as something else due to ability by rules to do so. If some of the deaths on the spike days are questionable CV related then it would mean our trend is better than shown. We trend down for 5 days and then bam a big spike. If part of that spike is not caused by CV then to me that would be great news. And perhaps then it would give better hope to open up businesses faster.

The original intent of closing things down was to prevent a big spike in hospital beds not to prevent it. There is no cure or vaccine so we can only use the data trends to determine when to start reopening. To that point if the spikes are truly 100% caused by CV then we may be slower in opening. If some were other causes but labeled as CV for insurance or CDC allowable reasons then it matters.

What I’m after is getting reopened and the one factor driving decisions is this data. Its not political I want to see us able to reopen as fast as possible yet as safely as possible. How they report factors in.

These are the type honest discussions taylor made for OKC Talk. If My post is in any way offensive or political please delete it no harm no foul

What is the Australia Effect? It's getting colder there...??

Australia’s case rate and the Science (https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/do-weather-conditions-influence-the-transmission-of-the-coronavirus-sars-cov-2/) speak for themselves.

Did you even read this?


The weather effect is minimal, and all estimates are subject to significant biases reinforcing the need for robust public health measures.

Did you even read this?

It also says this:


Results suggest that temperature does positively correlate with infection rates spread, whereas it negatively correlates with humidity. Temperature and humidity are likely to contribute a maximum of 18% of the variation in transmission.

That being said, it's dated March 23, 2020 so it may as well be The Iliad at this point.

It seems to me we use/used the numbers to shut down businesses. If numbers are being used as gospel to keep business shut down its fair to ask how we determine.

No, you use the numbers for politics. We use the numbers to understand who has died. Your inability to take off your partisan glasses even in the face of mortality numbers is a really bad look.

If people who want to open the economy so bad would just focus on how to do so safely (e.g., testing, tracing, PPE, business protocols) then we'd be more on our way to doing so. We all want businesses open. All of us. I'm terrified about this could lead to famine in third world countries (https://visionsofed.com/2018/09/16/episode-89-students-rights-in-schools-with-kimberlee-ried/). But, if we get this wrong, then it won't work. Either people will stay home because they will feel unsafe or we'll just end up back in shelter-in-place because of an explosion of cases.