This will drag on for months due to the patchwork approach, with too many exemptions for what should be non-essential businesses. If states like Oklahoma would just rip off the Band-aid and enforce strict social distancing, we could get through this much faster.

So you're fine just adding another 60K deaths per year on top of our death rate? Very cool. And when the next pandemic comes around, will that be the threshold again? We can just keep stacking them up. As long as they don't pass the flu, it's all good.
Boulder has been solidly in the dollar signs over vital signs camp from the very beginning.

Self quarantine till May.

The OKCTalk forum should give this poster a prize for early accuracy. Posted 3/7

Had a couple of friends get tested after coming into close contact with someone who is now hospitalized. Appears they were able to be treated privately for about $75 and got results in 20 minutes (negative). I'm glad to hear this is now an option. Unfortunately, I have other friends who have been quarantined for over a week now and still don't know their results.

I'm curious which testing site this was? None in Oklahoma are reporting faster than 8 hour turnaround. Would you be comfortable divulging where your friends went?
That turnaround time is a huge outlier.

So you're fine just adding another 60K deaths per year on top of our death rate? Very cool. And when the next pandemic comes around, will that be the threshold again? We can just keep stacking them up. As long as they don't pass the flu, it's all good.

Taking into consideration how many people are going to be effected long term due to job loss and the economic destruction continuing down this path will cause...Frankly yes.

Numbers just updated for Wednesday:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/corona040820a.jpg

So you're fine just adding another 60K deaths per year on top of our death rate? Very cool. And when the next pandemic comes around, will that be the threshold again? We can just keep stacking them up. As long as they don't pass the flu, it's all good.

Are you prepared for a 30% unemployment rate ?

35,000 per year die from traffic accidents. We could eliminate every one of those deaths with a 15 mph national speed limit, but in the process, destroy our way of life.

Its not just dollar signs vrs vital signs. That's far too simplistic.

???? do you have proof of that? and that it hasn't affected the numbers? because i can show you proof that while not all people are social distancing, a decent chunk of them are.

Don't know what kind of assumptions IHME modular was making on "total social distancing" , but these were not small misses. The US went from a mid-range estimate of about 250K to 160K for total beds needed. I highly doubt we became 2X more effective in the past 1 to 2 weeks with social distancing. I suspect there is large number of silent asymptomatic carriers that were not factored into the module. Even Fauci is coming onboard to this.

So we could have had a much larger spread than we though we had at the beginning. So it took longer to stop that exponential growth.

This will drag on for months due to the patchwork approach, with too many exemptions for what should be non-essential businesses. If states like Oklahoma would just rip off the Band-aid and enforce strict social distancing, we could get through this much faster.

Our hospitalization rate, which is probably the most useful stat in all of this, has essentially leveled off which would indicate that we’ve done something right over the last few weeks. I don’t really understand why you keep harping on that talking point. The majority of the population is staying at home...the restrictions in place now are the most we need here and I don’t envision them adding much that have any greater effect on what people are doing than those we already have in place. Nothing outside of gaining heard immunity or developing a vaccine is going to do anything other than slow this down. We’ve done enough to allow the hospitals and medical community to catch up...restrictions need to start being lifted in phases toward the last week of April or first week of May.

Our hospitalization rate, which is probably the most useful stat in all of this, has essentially leveled off which would indicate that we’ve done something right over the last few weeks. I don’t really understand why you keep harping on that talking point. The majority of the population is staying at home...the restrictions in place now are the most we need here and I don’t envision them adding much that have any greater effect on what people are doing than those we already have in place. Nothing outside of gaining heard immunity or developing a vaccine is going to do anything other than slow this down. We’ve done enough to allow the hospitals and medical community to catch up...restrictions need to start being lifted in phases toward the last week of April or first week of May.. Completely agree.

Are you prepared for a 30% unemployment rate ?

35,000 per year die from traffic accidents. We could eliminate every one of those deaths with a 15 mph national speed limit, but in the process, destroy our way of life.

Its not just dollar signs vrs vital signs. That's far too simplistic.

all of this

Boulder has been solidly in the dollar signs over vital signs camp from the very beginning.

The toll that continued restrictions will have on the economy/our way of life vs the virus death toll is not an easy one, but it’s one that needs to be going on. You can’t just look at it from one side or the other. Anyone that can’t see both sides of this needs to be more realistic or has the lucky benefit of stable employment/income that hasn’t been affected by this yet or won't be.

the fewest new positives in over a week .. is avery good thing

Our hospitalization rate, which is probably the most useful stat in all of this, has essentially leveled off which would indicate that we’ve done something right over the last few weeks. I don’t really understand why you keep harping on that talking point. The majority of the population is staying at home...the restrictions in place now are the most we need here and I don’t envision them adding much that have any greater effect on what people are doing than those we already have in place. Nothing outside of gaining heard immunity or developing a vaccine is going to do anything other than slow this down. We’ve done enough to allow the hospitals and medical community to catch up...restrictions need to start being lifted in phases toward the last week of April or first week of May.

Add to this that it appears that most businesses and the OK population seem to as a whole be taking the mask recommendation seriously. On a recent trip to Target and Lowe’s about 75%-85% of the people I saw were wearing masks and most of the employees were.

Add to this that it appears that most businesses and the OK population seem to as a whole be taking the mask recommendation seriously. On a recent trip to Target and Lowe’s about 75%-85% of the people I saw were wearing masks and most of the employees were.

exactly. this is my observations as well.

i'm also still waiting to see how this is killing our economy. some businesses are not going to survive this, yes, i understand that. and it's going to change a lot about how people prepare for situations and how much they keep saved, etc... but that is the nature of a true free market. you adapt or you die. The economy is hurting but not dying like several of the posters on here are thinking. and relief for some of that is coming. but all disasters cause the end of some businesses, if they aren't able to survive the duration of the event, and don't adjust going forward. this is a true free market situation.

exactly. this is my observations as well.

i'm also still waiting to see how this is killing our economy. some businesses are not going to survive this, yes, i understand that. and it's going to change a lot about how people prepare for situations and how much they keep saved, etc... but that is the nature of a true free market. you adapt or you die. The economy is hurting but not dying like several of the posters on here are thinking. and relief for some of that is coming. but all disasters cause the end of some businesses, if they aren't able to survive the duration of the event, and don't adjust going forward. this is a true free market situation.

on friday of this week we will pass 15 million unemployment claims in the last 3 weeks alone that takes unemplyment to almost 15%

on friday of this week we will pass 15 million unemployment claims in the last 3 weeks alone that takes unemplyment to almost 15%

and businesses will reopen after this is over. and that number is going to go down and go down quickly. your point? we are still in the middle of this disaster. we don't look at unemployment numbers in the middle of, or immediately after a hurricane and say the whole economy is forever destroyed do we? The government is doing what it is supposed to do. providing more money for that short term unemployment as a stop gap. the economy is actually doing much stronger for all that has been going on than most would have guessed. consumer confidence is pretty high, the stock market isn't taking every day. people are still able to get food and other essential items. there aren't mass shortages of goods. where is this destroyed economy? it's just temporarily in a slump. it's not like the oil crises of the last 70's even... we are fine.

This will drag on for months due to the patchwork approach, with too many exemptions for what should be non-essential businesses. If states like Oklahoma would just rip off the Band-aid and enforce strict social distancing, we could get through this much faster.

Regarding the bewildering flu comparison:

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/covid-19-has-now-killed-many-oklahomans-three-weeks-flu-has-seven-months?fbclid=IwAR0pmcogOxCxqlDzJgMh_6fNW0eu238naj 1Q656dsDuMQbNU5sD-AnfHcb0

and businesses will reopen after this is over. and that number is going to go down and go down quickly. your point? we are still in the middle of this disaster. we don't look at unemployment numbers in the middle of, or immediately after a hurricane and say the whole economy is forever destroyed do we? The government is doing what it is supposed to do. providing more money for that short term unemployment as a stop gap. the economy is actually doing much stronger for all that has been going on than most would have guessed. consumer confidence is pretty high, the stock market isn't taking every day. people are still able to get food and other essential items. there aren't mass shortages of goods. where is this destroyed economy? it's just temporarily in a slump. it's not like the oil crises of the last 70's even... we are fine.

Those unemployment numbers should improve now that the Paycheck Protection Program is in place and employers are able to re-hire recently laid off employees. That of course will not be the case for everyone and this is a short-term relief, but it's a step in the right direction.

Those unemployment numbers should improve now that the Paycheck Protection Program is in place and employers are able to re-hire recently laid off employees. That of course will not be the case for everyone and this is a short-term relief, but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm not sure anyone will use that money to re-hire people. Once received, it all has to be spent in 8 weeks in order for it to be forgivable.

and businesses will reopen after this is over. and that number is going to go down and go down quickly. your point? we are still in the middle of this disaster. we don't look at unemployment numbers in the middle of, or immediately after a hurricane and say the whole economy is forever destroyed do we? The government is doing what it is supposed to do. providing more money for that short term unemployment as a stop gap. the economy is actually doing much stronger for all that has been going on than most would have guessed. consumer confidence is pretty high, the stock market isn't taking every day. people are still able to get food and other essential items. there aren't mass shortages of goods. where is this destroyed economy? it's just temporarily in a slump. it's not like the oil crises of the last 70's even... we are fine.

This is incorrect beginning at the first sentence of your post.

We are already at a point where some businesses will not reopen. The gov't has done some work to minimize those losses with the SBA loans, but those mediums are essentially useless if we're not back up and running after April...maybe we can make it a week or 2 into May. After that, it will require another round of injection from the Fed/Washington, but at some point, a large swath of small business owners will just cut losses and not try to guess when we're good to come out of lockdown. And they will not re-insert that working capital back into the market until they have some assurance that we're not going to get rocked again.

When restrictions are lifted and many people's choice of food establishment to celebrate is no longer operating and has no definite plans of returning will be the 1st time that people really begin to understand the economic consequences of this virus. The closer we push this to summer, the more out of whack supply and demand economics becomes. Returning that to order will probably take, minimum, a month for every week we are shut down beginning this month.

I'm curious which testing site this was? None in Oklahoma are reporting faster than 8 hour turnaround. Would you be comfortable divulging where your friends went?
That turnaround time is a huge outlier.

Sorry, didn't ask for the name of the place. I just know the last friend to be tested had to go to Norman and was told to be there by 7am because it's first come, first served.

I think the number of people laid off needs to be put in perspective, here's unemployment claims in historical context

https://twitter.com/ThingsWork/status/1246150462073536512?s=19

And ya don't just flip a switch and everything returns to normal, a lot of businesses are becoming cash poor and won't have to capital to restart.

Also, this Fed spending is not mannah from heaven, its not free. We're looking at a return of inflation, higher interest rates, and higher taxes

We will also see the impact in higher prices for goods as manufacturing returns from over seas, where they've been enjoying cheap labor. That won't fly here. This will contribute to inflation.

The restaurant business looks terrible. They're still just tricking back to restaurants in China. Until there's a vaccine , there's gonna be large segments of the economy that struggle.

Housing will be another concern that the Fed Gov will have to deal with, foreclosures are sure to follow unemployment, that will lead to a crash in housing prices.

I'm not sure anyone will use that money to re-hire people. Once received, it all has to be spent in 8 weeks in order for it to be forgivable.

But they are required to rehire to qualify for forgiveness correct?

Cut/paste:

The Paycheck Protection Program is a loan designed to provide a direct incentive for small businesses to keep their workers on the payroll.

SBA will forgive loans if all employees are kept on the payroll for eight weeks and the money is used for payroll, rent, mortgage interest, or utilities.

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program-ppp

^

All you have to do is keep the employees you have at the time of application.

Most companies have already let go the majority of their staff.

It does appear that Oklahoma County numbers are leveling off. Small town Oklahoma not so much. It is foolish to assume tens of thousands of Oklahomans contracting a virus that is fatal up to 3.5 percent would create a robist environment for economic stability. Further, the governor exempted many businesses that few would view as essential.

I'm not sure anyone will use that money to re-hire people. Once received, it all has to be spent in 8 weeks in order for it to be forgivable.

That is probably correct, but it should help to curb additional layoffs as well as keep the lights on once we get back to some level of normalcy to allow for them to re-hire previous employees.

That is probably correct, but it should help to curb additional layoffs as well as keep the lights on once we get back to some level of normalcy to allow for them to re-hire previous employees.

But will the previous employees still be re-hire-able? Some will have moved on to other jobs or other fields, who knows how many will be re-employed where they used to work...

Also a very real concern that America will become more corporatized because huge companies will benefit more from the bailout than small employers, and chains might start snapping up non-reopening small businesses/restaurants.

Teo's post is pretty on target, there are *lots* of places that just won't re-open. Think about Lipsmackers - did good business, tried to open in a new place, got in too deep to re-open, ran out of money, and no Lipsmackers ever again (or at least for the foreseeable future). Not an exact comparison, but close enough because lots of places just won't get bailed out (or if they do, not in time).

https://slate.com/business/2020/04/care-act-small-business-disaster-grants.html

I think the number of people laid off needs to be put in perspective, here's unemployment claims in historical context

https://twitter.com/ThingsWork/status/1246150462073536512?s=19

And ya don't just flip a switch and everything returns to normal, a lot of businesses are becoming cash poor and won't have to capital to restart.

Also, this Fed spending is not mannah from heaven, its not free. We're looking at a return of inflation, higher interest rates, and higher taxes

We will also see the impact in higher prices for goods as manufacturing returns from over seas, where they've been enjoying cheap labor. That won't fly here. This will contribute to inflation.

The restaurant business looks terrible. They're still just tricking back to restaurants in China. Until there's a vaccine , there's gonna be large segments of the economy that struggle.

Housing will be another concern that the Fed Gov will have to deal with, foreclosures are sure to follow unemployment, that will lead to a crash in housing prices.

and this doesn't even talk about how all state and city gov are going to be in a world of hurt budget wise

It does appear that Oklahoma County numbers are leveling off. Small town Oklahoma not so much. It is foolish to assume tens of thousands of Oklahomans contracting a virus that is fatal up to 3.5 percent would create a robist environment for economic stability. Further, the governor exempted many businesses that few would view as essential.

3.5% is a number almost out of thin air ...

3.5% is a number almost out of thin air ...

You are right... there are some medical authorities claiming it may be higher since it may have caused deaths that were misdiagnosed, especially amongst those with existing heart and lung conditions.

Given the poor record on testing, denial by lots, and asymptomatic carriers, we will probably not know the real number. What we do know is it way more deadly than the flu or other viruses and we have no vaccine.

You are right... there are some medical authorities claiming it may be higher since it may have caused deaths that were misdiagnosed, especially amongst those with existing heart and lung conditions.

Given the poor record on testing, denial by lots, and asymptomatic carriers, we will probably not know the real number. What we do know is it way more deadly than the flu or other viruses and we have no vaccine.

and the huge majority think it is much much smaller and we don't know that it is more deadly than the flu

Sorry, didn't ask for the name of the place. I just know the last friend to be tested had to go to Norman and was told to be there by 7am because it's first come, first served.

I'm betting it's IMMY labs in Norman, has capacity for 150 tests per day and reports a 6 hour turnaround (I am guessing that they built themselves a bit of a buffer) . Interesting that it's $75. They originally were quoting $25 plus the cost of the test kit, so their cost is $50 per kit? Hmmm.

and this doesn't even talk about how all state and city gov are going to be in a world of hurt budget wise

In the most recent stimulus bill 4 (electric boogaloo) one proposal from the house is $150 billion to go to states to shore up their budget deficits

3.5% is a number almost out of thin air ...

This

The re-open-the-economy folks who think the economic hardship is worse than COVID-19 live in fantasy land. This isn't an either/or choice.

First, anyone who argues this isn't worse than the flu should be ignored because all the evidence supports they're wrong. The primary reason things aren't way worse is because people have taken drastic social distancing measures across the United States. Even with shelter-in-place for weeks, here's what happened in NYC (source (https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1247884285333266434)):


– The grey line shows the number of deaths in New York State in 2015-18
– The colored lines at the bottom are deaths from the flu in past years
– In red is the number of confirmed deaths from the pandemic

15947
(click on the picture for a larger image)

Regardless of whether it will be as bad, most cities in the U.S. still haven't hit their peak.

Second, there is no such thing as re-opening the economy until COVID-19 is under control. This requires universal testing and mask wearing, the development of anti-bodies, and continued social distancing. And only once the curve has flattened can businesses open in a limited way. People will not fully participate in the economy unless they are confident the health risks are low (and this has to be real or sickness and death will reveal it).

In short, the only reasonable option is to (a) get COVID-19 under control so health confidence raises and (b) then re-open aspects of the economy while continuing/maintaining tests, masks, social distancing, etc. All of that will be around for the next year+ in some form or another.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

^

All you have to do is keep the employees you have at the time of application.

Most companies have already let go the majority of their staff.

Ok, I see what you are saying. If already cut they don’t have to rehire.

Had I made the bill I would have required rehires to qualify. Especially since its free money (forgiveness).

The re-open-the-economy folks who think the economic hardship is worse than COVID-19 live in fantasy land. This isn't an either/or choice.

First, anyone who argues this isn't worse than the flu should be ignored because all the evidence supports they're wrong. The primary reason things aren't way worse is because people have taken drastic social distancing measures across the United States. Even with shelter-in-place for weeks, here's what happened in NYC (source (https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1247884285333266434)):



15947
(click on the picture for a larger image)

Regardless of whether it will be as bad, most cities in the U.S. still haven't hit their peak.

Second, there is no such thing as re-opening the economy until COVID-19 is under control. This requires universal testing and mask wearing, the development of anti-bodies, and continued social distancing. And only once the curve has flattened can businesses open in a limited way. People will not fully participate in the economy unless they are confident the health risks are low (and this has to be real or sickness and death will reveal it).
In short, the only reasonable option is to (a) get COVID-19 under control so health confidence raises and (b) then re-open aspects of the economy while continuing/maintaining tests, masks, social distancing, etc. All of that will be around for the next year+ in some form or another.

Sure there is...you just do it (over a few weeks) because it isn't feasible to keep it shut down long enough for universal testing, a vaccine to be developed, or the virus to disappear. People will be willing to go along with this for a few more weeks but at some point, anger and unrest among the unemployed and people running businesses that aren't being allowed to operate will build and end with people pushing for an end to this or rebelling against the stay at home order/nonessential orders.

At any rate, I guess we'll see how it works out for Sweden vs everyone else.

Ok, I see what you are saying. If already cut they don’t have to rehire.

Had I made the bill I would have required rehires to qualify. Especially since its free money (forgiveness).

The problem is that all the money has to be spent in 8 weeks.

So, almost nobody is going to rehire people when they will likely still be struggling 8 weeks down the line.


Speaking for myself, we are not planning to rehire people at the Gazette; just trying desperately to pay our core employees so we can come back strong when the time is right. And that is not likely to be within 8 weeks.

Sure there is...you just do it because it isn't feasible to keep it shut down long enough for universal testing, a vaccine or anything else to catch up. I guess we'll see it works out for Sweden vs everyone else.

I guess you mean not feasible for the United States. Other countries are making it happen far more quickly. Many of these things should be feasible within 4-6 weeks if we do things right.

Oh, and again for the COVID-19-is-the-flu crowd. Just a reminder that almost 2,000 people (1,858 deaths) died due to COVID-19 on Tuesday.

I guess you mean not feasible for the United States. Other countries are making it happen far more quickly. Many of these things should be feasible within 4-6 weeks if we do things right.

Cellex Inc does have emergency authorization from the FDA for serologic testing work. They are headquarted in North Carolina, according to the FDA EUA approval letter.

Oh, and again for the COVID-19-is-the-flu crowd. Just a reminder that almost 2,000 people (1,858 deaths) died due to COVID-19 on Tuesday.

over 7700 people die every day

The problem is that all the money has to be spent in 8 weeks.

So, almost nobody is going to rehire people when they will likely still be struggling 8 weeks down the line.


Speaking for myself, we are not planning to rehire people at the Gazette; just trying desperately to pay our core employees so we can come back strong when the time is right. And that is not likely to be within 8 weeks.

Was just listeniing to Ted Cruz's podcast " The Verdict " while on my bicycle ride, he says if they've already laid off employees, if they hire them back the loan will be treated as a grant.
'

This is incorrect beginning at the first sentence of your post.

We are already at a point where some businesses will not reopen. The gov't has done some work to minimize those losses with the SBA loans, but those mediums are essentially useless if we're not back up and running after April...maybe we can make it a week or 2 into May. After that, it will require another round of injection from the Fed/Washington, but at some point, a large swath of small business owners will just cut losses and not try to guess when we're good to come out of lockdown. And they will not re-insert that working capital back into the market until they have some assurance that we're not going to get rocked again.

When restrictions are lifted and many people's choice of food establishment to celebrate is no longer operating and has no definite plans of returning will be the 1st time that people really begin to understand the economic consequences of this virus. The closer we push this to summer, the more out of whack supply and demand economics becomes. Returning that to order will probably take, minimum, a month for every week we are shut down beginning this month.

correct... which i stated in my first statement... my apologize if you assumed i meant all businesses, after i had already said that some will die.... really not sure why you are arguing with me on this... i said that very statement before you did, and explained why that is just the nature disasters and the free market.

The re-open-the-economy folks who think the economic hardship is worse than COVID-19 live in fantasy land. This isn't an either/or choice.

First, anyone who argues this isn't worse than the flu should be ignored because all the evidence supports they're wrong. The primary reason things aren't way worse is because people have taken drastic social distancing measures across the United States. Even with shelter-in-place for weeks, here's what happened in NYC (source (https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1247884285333266434)):



15947
(click on the picture for a larger image)

Regardless of whether it will be as bad, most cities in the U.S. still haven't hit their peak.

Second, there is no such thing as re-opening the economy until COVID-19 is under control. This requires universal testing and mask wearing, the development of anti-bodies, and continued social distancing. And only once the curve has flattened can businesses open in a limited way. People will not fully participate in the economy unless they are confident the health risks are low (and this has to be real or sickness and death will reveal it).

In short, the only reasonable option is to (a) get COVID-19 under control so health confidence raises and (b) then re-open aspects of the economy while continuing/maintaining tests, masks, social distancing, etc. All of that will be around for the next year+ in some form or another.

I think that's what a lot of people don't get. It's not just an economic argument, there has to be some endgame for the universal "shelter in place" policies. The entire world can't stay in quarantine for 18 months until a vaccine is ready so once you "flatten the curve" and keep the initial burst of critical cases from overloading hospitals, you actually need as many people to continue getting infected as possible (without overloading the hospitals again) to build herd immunity.

It only makes sense to start with the younger and much lower risk group which can then get antibody testing to confirm they're immune and no longer a risk to others. I'm sure a lot of people would do this voluntarily and could be a kind of "hands-on workforce" for those who have to stay safe at home. The grocery store workers, package delivery people, and other essential jobs which are currently filled by people risking their health would be taken care of and the world could go on until there's a vaccine for the high risk groups.

https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/coronavirus-releasing-young-people-could-be-best-way-out-of-lockdown-experts-suggest-150828964.html

Was just listeniing to Ted Cruz's podcast " The Verdict " while on my bicycle ride, he says if they've already laid off employees, if they hire them back the loan will be treated as a grant.
'

The loan is forgivable to the extent the money is spent on payroll, utilities, mortgage and rent.

You don't have to rehire anyone to meet this condition.

^

All you have to do is keep the employees you have at the time of application.

Most companies have already let go the majority of their staff.


That’s what our company is doing. They are cutting everyone’s hours and have applied for the relief funds so as to not lay anyone off and keep moving forward.

The loan is forgivable to the extent the money is spent on payroll, utilities, mortgage and rent.

You don't have to rehire anyone to meet this condition.

75% of the loan must be used for payroll or none of the loan amount is forgiven. In addition, the loan amount is determined by your average monthly payroll - so if you take a loan for 2.5 times your monthly payroll but don't hire back enough people to hit that 75% threshold, you are on the hook to repay the entire thing.

The PPP loan is designed to get employers to keep and/or rehire staff that was let go.

75% of the loan must be used for payroll or none of the loan amount is forgiven. In addition, the loan amount is determined by your average monthly payroll - so if you take a loan for 2.5 times your monthly payroll but don't hire back enough people to hit that 75% threshold, you are on the hook to repay the entire thing.

The PPP loan is designed to get employers to keep and/or rehire staff that was let go.

And it has to be spent within 8 weeks of being issued.

I've already applied and hope to have funds in the next few days.

The loan is forgivable to the extent the money is spent on payroll, utilities, mortgage and rent.

You don't have to rehire anyone to meet this condition.

It also doesn't specify how that payroll is allocated to employees, just that a minimum of 75% of the loan is spent towards payroll to be forgiven.

I think that's what a lot of people don't get. It's not just an economic argument, there has to be some endgame for the universal "shelter in place" policies. The entire world can't stay in quarantine for 18 months until a vaccine is ready so once you "flatten the curve" and keep the initial burst of critical cases from overloading hospitals, you actually need as many people to continue getting infected as possible (without overloading the hospitals again) to build herd immunity.

It only makes sense to start with the younger and much lower risk group which can then get antibody testing to confirm they're immune and no longer a risk to others. I'm sure a lot of people would do this voluntarily and could be a kind of "hands-on workforce" for those who have to stay safe at home. The grocery store workers, package delivery people, and other essential jobs which are currently filled by people risking their health would be taken care of and the world could go on until there's a vaccine for the high risk groups.

https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/coronavirus-releasing-young-people-could-be-best-way-out-of-lockdown-experts-suggest-150828964.html

Again, shelter-at-home OR everyone gets it are not the only options. There are sensible middle ground approaches. The herd immunity end game seems to be a way worse option than tests + masks + social distancing + widespread precautions to get us through the year+ until there's a vaccine. Most things can re-open under those circumstances. Probably not indoor (or crowded) concerts or clubs and such will probably need to stay closed for longer. But businesses that impose temporary COVID-19 limitations (e.g., every third table can be used) could open. A lot of people will certainly choose to be less social until there's a vaccine and so carry out/delivery will continue to be popular.

At some point ( i'm thinking around june 1st) we are going to have to let the younger crowd out into the world. Still no concerts still no large events but like the post above being able to go out to eat. All you have to do is look at the death rates. Under 50 I think it's .05 percent. Even in Oklahoma only 4 deaths under 50 (that might of changed today) We still need to keep the older population isolated though. Keep them at home as much as possible. Drop off grocery, don't go visit them. Pretty much all the things we are trying to do now. I just copy part of a story

Of the 4,758 deaths in New York since the first on March 14, 61% were men and 39% were women, the state Department of Health reportedon its new data portal.

In addition, 63% of the deaths were among those age 70 and older, while 7% of the cases were those 49 and younger.

And 4,089 of those who died had at least one other chronic disease, the records showed:

The leading underlying illness was hypertension, which showed up in 55% of the deaths.
Next was diabetes, which was diagnosed in 1,755 deaths, or about 37% of the cases.
Other top illnesses found in those who died from coronavirus were hyperlipidemia; coronary artery disease; renal disease and dementia.

So if i'm doing my numbers right only 333 people 49 or under have died. Maybe if you have one of the conditions listed and your under 50 you also need to stay home. I don't know the answer but we also can't keep going like this for 18 months.

One issue in this thread is the whole “sacrificing the economy for 60,000 deaths” argument. It’s “only” 60,000 because we did what we needed to do. Under a “screw lives, save the economy” approach we would be looking at a much much larger number.

But many predicted that any success at lowering the totals would be met with a “see, not many people died, we didn’t need to do all this, everyone overreacted” argument.

It also doesn't specify how that payroll is allocated to employees, just that a minimum of 75% of the loan is spent towards payroll to be forgiven.

This is false. At the top of the PPP Fact Sheet for Borrowers published by the Treasury Department, it specifically states that for loan amounts to be forgiven, one of the criteria is that "employee and compensation levels are maintained." Any business owner that takes out a PPP loan must have the same level of staff they had when the crises started, or have a good reason why not. And maintaining compensation levels means no sweetheart salaries for the boss at the expense of the owners/management.

I am not your CPA and I am not offering any professional advice on this message board. However this is dangerous misinformation that is spreading, and I strongly encourage any business owner that is seeking a PPP loan consult with their accountant.

And it has to be spent within 8 weeks of being issued.

I've already applied and hope to have funds in the next few days.

My PPP was funded today and is in my bank account

The powers that be have their butt covered on this one .............

If deaths are not what they forecast, then it was all due to the draconian lock down of American life.

And its appearing that they used scare tactics that were beyond necessary.

The powers that be have their butt covered on this one .............

If deaths are not what they forecast, then it was all due to the draconian lock down of American life.

And its appearing that they used scare tactics that were beyond necessary.
That will be the radical right wing media spin.