With the Parisian acquistion in the SE US, Belk are everywhere around here. Sort of a dime a dozen. They do have some nice things in larger markets (some in ATL, etc.) but others are sort of, just, eh... I hope they attract even higher end retail to UNP.

I haven't been in one, but I get the idea that Belk's is just another Gordman's or Kohl's.

I haven't been in one, but I get the idea that Belk's is just another Gordman's or Kohl's.

I can assure you it's not. My wife worked at the one in stillwater from the time it opened in 2006 until last month. It's not as nice as Dillards or Macy's but more similar to JCPenny.

And it's Belk, not Belk's/Belks. =)

Interesting.

My assumptions need not be correct.

Belk- Belks who cares, you say tomato and I say posibble salmonella poisioning.. As long as we know what it means and is on the same subject Belk or belks, I hear people say JcPennys all the time and I know what they are meaning.. Wow some people are so nit picky.. ; )

Belk- Belks who cares, you say tomato and I say How much.. As long as we know what it means and is on the same subject Belk or belks, I hear people say JcPennys all the time and I know what they are meaning.. Wow some people are so nit picky.. ; )

C'mon man, I put a SMILEY face there :) I just said that because that is what my wife would do.

Just having a friendly spat with you. I didnt know there was a belk in stillwater, does it do any business? The one in branson,mo is really nice(its the only belk store i have been in), so I thought maybe all belk department stores would be like it?

All in good fun. The one in Stillwater is fairly small compared to the other stores, but it is still quite nice. They do pretty good business because they carry merchandise that only OKC and Tulsa department stores have.

There is also a larger store in Owasso that is very nice and a new one that just opened in South Tulsa.

I read an article in the Wall Street Journal this week about the problems of new and in construction lifestyle centers with future retail stores who had signed on to be tennants and have backed out because of the economic situation. These are mainly the smaller more upscale stores.

Part of the problem is the herd syndrome. Certain retailers want to be with others so they wait to see who is coming in. If a key store does not sign on or pulls out then there can be a domino effect. It can be circular too with store A waiting on store B and vice versa.

So just wondering if UN Park is having any problems like that?

With Norman (and Oklahoma in general)'s continued growth and relative isolation from the downturn I don't expect that to be too much of a problem here. At least not for a while. Here's hoping we can continue to buck the nation-wide trend :)

Hello,

New to the forum. Been browsing for a bit, and this thread caught my eye. I didn't even know that this development was as big as it is (looking at the site map, there seems to be a whole lot heading our way).

And thats what I have questions about. Does anyone have the contact information for the developer? I am wonder if there are any opportunities left for a hotel or two (small scale of course, no JQH sized properties coming from me). One of the site plans I saw, showed a proposed 13 acres or so, at Rock Creek and the frontage road.

I would also like to say that I am very glad I found this site. I never knew so many locals were interested in the development of our State. This really makes me excited about the future of Oklahoma (and glad that I didn't move to Texas, lol).

Part of the problem is the herd syndrome. Certain retailers want to be with others so they wait to see who is coming in. If a key store does not sign on or pulls out then there can be a domino effect. It can be circular too with store A waiting on store B and vice versa.

So just wondering if UN Park is having any problems like that?

Your "herd" metaphore is very correct. Commercial retailers are a funny bunch and spend vast amounts of time analyzing who is and isn't present at a site prior to their move in. However, usually a development will reach a critical mass where the first domino falls and the rest fall soon afterwards.

In particular, this scenario is likely to play out at UNP. I've heard many complaining about how the City Council was lied to about the types of stores that will move into UNP. What I believe they are missing is the fact that, just as you described, the upper end stores wait to see who will go in first prior to their decision to act. This usually means the more moderate stores will take the plunge first (Kohl's, Target, Dress Barn, etc.) which will help build to the critical mass I referenced above.

Moreover, as Legacy Trail begins to be built out (the trail will eventually connect UNP to Lake Thunderbird via walking and biking trails) I suspect the intertia will only grow. UNP is a two mile long development and the first mile isn't even close to being fully developed.

Does anyone have the contact information for the developer? I am wonder if there are any opportunities left for a hotel or two

Sooner Investment - Commercial & Investment Real Estate (http://www.soonerinvestment.com/)

Doubtful on hotel opportunities.

With Norman (and Oklahoma in general)'s continued growth and relative isolation from the downturn I don't expect that to be too much of a problem here. At least not for a while. Here's hoping we can continue to buck the nation-wide trend :)

Superhyper, sorry, I did not make myself clear. The article referenced not only the local economies but also the national economic situation which has effect on the national chains and their decisions to build new stores or pull in their horns. So even though this area may be doing pretty well , some chains may be rethinking expansion into new retail developments.

I called about the possibility of another hotel or two in this development, however, they are not currently pursuing more hospitality. Its still on the table, but until the Embassy opens, they will not contract out another hotel.
But there is still a possibility, so I am hopeful at this point. I would like to have a hotel in Norman, and UNP is definitely the area I would like to be in. I can't wait to see how this development turns out.

Published July 30, 2008 12:00 am - Statutory committee members for the University North Park Tax Increment Financing District No. 2 voted Tuesday to send a proposed amendment to the UNP TIF's Project Plan back with all funds still on the table.

Statutory committee keeps TIF funds on table (http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_213111108)

I called about the possibility of another hotel or two in this development, however, they are not currently pursuing more hospitality. Its still on the table, but until the Embassy opens, they will not contract out another hotel.
But there is still a possibility, so I am hopeful at this point. I would like to have a hotel in Norman, and UNP is definitely the area I would like to be in. I can't wait to see how this development turns out.

I think any new hotel in Norman should be near OU. It's crazy there's not a large hotel already by campus like in Campus Corner or downtown.

I wouldn't be opposed to one near OU, but I don't think I would want one off of Highway 9 for instance. I would also think that by placing one in closer proximity to the OU campus, I would be lessening my chances of getting regular travel/Interstate business. If OU didn't have something going on that required out of town patrons to need a hotel, who would come to my hotel?
I'm not saying that there is no demand for a hotel near OU, I think more people would rather "play it safe" and place one near the Interstate (and its not far from the campus or anything really).

You wouldn't put a large hotel near OU but one that could be used for visitors looking at the university, fans staying for football and basketball games especially those from other schools wanting to be close, people coming for events and lectures at the university such as guest speakers, and then of course those that don't want to stay in a boring hotel by the interstate. Something really nice like the Atherton at OSU but bigger and located in Campus Corner, with a great restaurant that could be a showcase for visitors.

I actually think there could be two hotels. One medium-sized hotel like a Sheraton or Radisson right by the stadium that would primarily be used for those coming for football games but could also include meeting facilities and be used year-round especially for people coming to the research campus and National Weather Center nearby on Jenkins. Such a building could also have condos for fans wanting to own a place by the stadium and be located where the athletic dorms are currently, assuming they will be rebuilt at the SE corner of Lindsey and Jenkins. The other would be the aforementioned small upscale hotel in Campus Corner. Getting people away from the interstate and inside Norman would be better for the city in the long run, and there are already plenty of options off I-35 (basically all the hotels in Norman are located there).

Since it hasn't been done yet, I would believe that there isn't demand for a hotel on campus.
If most of the customers staying at the existing hotels in Norman throughout the week are there specifically for University business, I can see a hotel doing well on campus.
If thats not the case, why would someone drive a few miles off the interstate to stay on campus?
But then again, it could be something as simple as OU not wanting a hotel on there campus. Or maybe they are making it too difficult from someone to build one (strict requirements on size and architecture could turn off potential developers).
My family and I would never be opposed to putting a hotel on a University campus, we would just have to have good reason to believe it would do well to even want to bother. As of right now, off the interstate (UNP area more specifically) is the part of town I would want to put a new hotel.

Since it hasn't been done yet, I would believe that there isn't demand for a hotel on campus.
If most of the customers staying at the existing hotels in Norman throughout the week are there specifically for University business, I can see a hotel doing well on campus.
If thats not the case, why would someone drive a few miles off the interstate to stay on campus?
But then again, it could be something as simple as OU not wanting a hotel on there campus. Or maybe they are making it too difficult from someone to build one (strict requirements on size and architecture could turn off potential developers).
My family and I would never be opposed to putting a hotel on a University campus, we would just have to have good reason to believe it would do well to even want to bother. As of right now, off the interstate (UNP area more specifically) is the part of town I would want to put a new hotel.

OU actually just closed it's own on-campus hotel. Admittedly it was terrible, but it had apparently been quite a tradition here for a number of years.

OU actually just closed it's own on-campus hotel. Admittedly it was terrible, but it had apparently been quite a tradition here for a number of years.

That gives OU a great opportunity to build a new Sooner Hotel that would be much better than the old one. OU building and operating it would probably be more feasible than a private developer, and the end product would most likely be better anyway. Anything built at OU is built to last while sadly many developers do the opposite.

Best Western opened last year (I think) on the South side of Campus. So there is one major chain very close to campus right now.

Totally forgot about Best Western, off of Classen I believe. Looks okay from the outside, but I remember seeing the rooms, and they were very nice (I think I remember flat panel LCD's as well).
I knew Sooner Hotel existed also, but never knew they closed it (are they going to turn it into dorms or apartments?)
I can see OU opening a hotel of their own, but really, I think most people will be happy with staying near the Interstate and driving to OU.

I honestly haven't heard any plans for a new hotel. They've converted the bungalows nearby into suites for visiting faculty/staff, but that's about all that's been done. I believe the original building itself is being turned into more administrative offices. If OU is to build another hotel, i'd be curious to see where it goes. We're* already pressed for space as it is.

*Disclaimer: I do work for the University. That doesn't mean I know everything that's going on though!

surely there was a hotel in downtown Norman at some date in the past.

and maybe the handful of bed and breakfast establishments located around campus fill the demand somewhat for lodging near campus corner/OU.

surely there was a hotel in downtown Norman at some date in the past.

and maybe the handful of bed and breakfast establishments located around campus fill the demand somewhat for lodging near campus corner/OU.

There used to be a hotel on Main street. I think it was on the corner of University and Main, on the North side. It was there in the 60's or early 70's.

Many universities have university-owned hotels on campus or nearby. They give alumni special rates, host visiting speakers, and allow people to stay by a bustling college campus. If OU were to rebuild the Sooner Hotel I'd say put it in Campus Corner and make it the cornerstone of a revitalization of University Blvd. Also make it upscale but also modern so visitors can leave Norman impressed.

OSU fixed up their run down campus hotel (with donations) and it's extremely nice now. On the Historic Hotels of America list actually.

OSU fixed up their run down campus hotel (with donations) and it's extremely nice now. On the Historic Hotels of America list actually.

The Atherton is very nice, as is the Ranchers Club restaurant inside. Something the size of the Atherton with an upscale restaurant would be PERFECT for Campus Corner.

Back to UNP, I know people working on the Embassy Suites project and substantial completion is still Sep. 21st. So I would guess a grand opening sometime in October.

I guess you all read this article in the Transcript this morning. It raises some questions with me.

"He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area." So what stores were announced and what was the negative backlash?

"He said the national economic climate had made it tougher to attract stores and restaurants, but he still expects to be successful. Several national chains have made announcements that they will not be opening new locations until the economy rebounds." I wonder if he was counting on some of these chains?

"In Phase 6, developers are looking at grocers like Whole Foods. Phase 6 is planned for construction in 2011 and 2012, although Nelson said there is no definite timeline." I think the question is would Whole Foods look at UNP not vice versa?

"He said he expects to have the south portion of University North Park between Robinson and Rock Creek Road fully developed in the next five to eight years. At this time, they do not have any plans to do residential or office space." So when might that residential /office space be developed?



Businesses coming to University North Park
By Carol Cole-Frowe


August 14, 2008 10:59 am

— New restaurants, shops and stores are coming to the 280-acre retail development at University North Park, but many of those remain under wraps, said Stanton Nelson, UNP developer.
Nelson told the Norman Chamber of Commerce's aviation committee at their Tuesday luncheon that he and developer Roy Oliver have a strong desire to bring good things to Norman in the 2 million square feet of retail space planned in the UNP retail development west of Max Westheimer Airport, east of Interstate-35 and between Robinson Street and Rock Creek Road.
"(Roy) is from here. I live here," Nelson said. "We wanted to do something that would hopefully be positive. ... We (in Norman) have lost a lot of sales tax dollars to Moore and other places ... Not only is this going to keep hopefully our sales tax dollars here, but we are going to attract from the south, the west, the east and even the north. Hopefully, this will be a place that people will get in the car to come just for the variety of stores that are going to be here."
He said three upscale restaurants are committed to locate around Legacy Park, when Norman councilmembers approve revenue bonds for the $8.5 million in UNP Tax Increment Financing District funds to build it. Park land is going to be donated to the City of Norman as part of the TIF projects.
"What we see as a huge value ... first of all it's going to be a huge amenity to the city," Nelson said about Legacy Park. "But we are also going to have the ability to have two or three restaurant pads around the water feature."
One of those will be a Mahogany Prime Steakhouse from the Hal Smith Restaurant Group. Two others he said he couldn't announce yet.
"Obviously the restaurant pad users want to make sure that the park is built, so it is all contingent on the city," Nelson said. "So I really anticipate that with a vote from council hopefully in September. And hopefully they can start construction sometime in 2009."
Nelson said the group also is waiting on the City regarding plans to firm up on the Rock Creek overpass from 24th Avenue NW to 36th Avenue NW over I-35, before they go further in the design of that portion of the development.
He said the national economic climate had made it tougher to attract stores and restaurants, but he still expects to be successful. Several national chains have made announcements that they will not be opening new locations until the economy rebounds.
But it helps that Norman recently was named No. 6 among the Best Small Cities to Live by Money magazine.
"We're doing better than just about everybody in the nation," Nelson said about central Oklahoma after the meeting. "If they are going to locate anywhere, they should locate here."
He said he expects to have the south portion of University North Park between Robinson and Rock Creek Road fully developed in the next five to eight years. At this time, they do not have any plans to do residential or office space.
"This is a unique project ... when you look at this contiguous (retail) project, it is the fourth largest in the United States," Nelson said.
He said Phase II construction to the north of Kohl's should start in the next 90 to 120 days, with a variety of stores.
The John Q. Hammons Embassy Suites and Conference Center is expected to open Oct. 15.
"That will have a huge benefit ... bringing 2,500 people to town (on the weekend)," Nelson said.
The Logan's Roadhouse near completion will be opening south of the Super Target. A Cheddar's restaurant is planned to open in 2009 nearby.
Nelson said the lifestyle center in Phase 5 will be the focal point of the development, similar to the spine of the entire project. It would include the more upscale stores in the project.
"What we've tried to do is build around the lifestyle center, so it won't just be out there by itself," he said. "Our intent is to come back later this year and have something to show city council (about the lifestyle center)."
Developers are planning an upscale theater complex that would show more art-type movies as well as first-run movies.
"There is a myriad of different concepts that we are looking at," Nelson said. "The feel (for the lifestyle center) is that you can park your car and you can walk from one end to the other. ... We'll have a Main Street feel."
One aviation committee member asked about high-end stores expected to be located in University North Park.
Nelson said recently the city of Chandler, Ariz., paid Neiman-Marcus $40 million to come to town. TIF committee members were told in the initial phases that the area would not support a Nordstrom's or Saks, but could still attract upscale stores.
"The reality is that they do the research on the population base," Nelson said. "Unfortunately, Oklahoma City and Norman, we just don't have the economics to support them."
In Phase 6, developers are looking at grocers like Whole Foods. Phase 6 is planned for construction in 2011 and 2012, although Nelson said there is no definite timeline.
He said the impact to Norman is already being felt, with a current ad valorem tax base of somewhere around $540 million.
"So it's going to have a huge impact to Norman," Nelson said.
Sales tax and ad valorem dollars are already outpacing projections, he said.
"With the 280 acres fully built out, we'll double the tax base," Nelson said.
He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area.
"The hard part about doing this is I know people are wanting to know about specific stores," Nelson said. "I apologize that I can't give you a full list of everybody who's coming."
There are $11.5 million in TIF funds planned to improve the Robinson Street and Tecumseh Road intersections and build the frontage road. Councilmembers recently voted to spent $7.75 million to help build the Rock Creek overpass that would have been part of the funds used to purchase the conference center.
Developers are building other infrastructure like internal roads to make the project work.
"Only one road is part of the TIF," he said. "Every other road is outside of the project."
He said they have no preference about whether frontage roads along I-35 should be one-way or two-way, an issue being discussed in conjunction with the upcoming I-35 six-lane widening project by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.
"What we'd like to see is if it's one-way, it needs to be one-way throughout the city. Because there is some talk of breaking it up," Nelson said. "I just feel like people will be confused ... We're comfortable either way and we'll support the city in whatever direction they opt to take."
He urged Norman residents to have patience about how the development is unfolding and said he believes the development will meet the expectations of the public when it's fully built out.
"Hopefully it will have a huge, positive, long-lasting impact on Norman, not only from a sales tax standpoint, but on the public schools and everything associated with the ad valorem tax base," Nelson said.
Carol Cole-Frowe 366-3538 ccole@normantranscript.com

Is Dicks Sporting Goods still planning on coming to UNP?

"The feel (for the lifestyle center) is that you can park your car and you can walk from one end to the other. ... We'll have a Main Street feel."

Why not just build on real Main Street then? Maybe we wouldn't want this kind of development (or developer) in downtown anyway as they are dragging their feet and everything has been below expectations so far. I honestly never expected anything better though, it's a giant strip mall with bland chain stores that serve their purpose with a nice hotel/conference center. If I was showing a visitor around Norman I would not take them there, how is it any different than anywhere else in the country? Norman should be trying harder to continue development downtown and around OU instead of in this sprawling area along I-35. If I were an upscale retailer I would rather be in Campus Corner near boutiques and local eateries right next to a university instead of surrounded by parking lots, the airport, and stores like Dress Barn and Kohl's.

OU doesn't own Main St, so how could they develop it? The land that they are developing is very valuable for what it is.

The developer was actually ahead of schedule for the first two phases. They aren't the ones dragging their feet.

The first two phases have turned out to be exactly what they said they would be. Upscale tenants aren't supposed to come until the Lifestyle Center phase. It's too early to complain about the tenants. All "lifestyle" centers have big box stores around them.

Does anyone really think that this developer isn't trying to get upscale tenants? If the store refuses to come, it's not the developer's fault.

People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on. :)

Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.

It's definitely nicer than the big mound of dirt that was there before.

It's definitely nicer than the big mound of dirt that was there before.

Amen to that!

People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on. :)

Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.

Thanks for saying what most of us were thinking.

This project has been one of the rare ones that has been EXACTLY as we have been promised. I take Sooner Investment Group at their word. They have high-quality projects. The two highest quality "strip malls" in the OKC are theirs: University North Park and the Midwest City Town Center.

"He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area." So what stores were announced and what was the negative backlash?


This is the one that I'm curious about.

OU doesn't own Main St, so how could they develop it? The land that they are developing is very valuable for what it is.

The developer was actually ahead of schedule for the first two phases. They aren't the ones dragging their feet.

The first two phases have turned out to be exactly what they said they would be. Upscale tenants aren't supposed to come until the Lifestyle Center phase. It's too early to complain about the tenants. All "lifestyle" centers have big box stores around them.

Does anyone really think that this developer isn't trying to get upscale tenants? If the store refuses to come, it's not the developer's fault.

I realize OU doesn't own Main Street but they own a lot of property just to the south. I think it's good they have developed something there by the airport and Norman needs those big box stores and really needed that hotel. I just think OU would be better off working to redevelop the gateway to the university along Main that is currently not that attractive instead of trying to lure upscale stores to a faux-Main Street setting next to the airport and big box stores. Trust me I am GLAD we have this development for the tax revenue and increased shopping/dining options it provides, although I will probably never shop anywhere there except Target.

Ohio State University recently completed a project by their campus which took a really rundown stretch of High Street that serves as a gateway to their campus and revitalized it with stores, restaurants, and university offices. I've been to Columbus when it was still rundown and it makes downtown Norman look like Brookhaven, I mean it was really rundown and even dangerous. Now it is great, I saw it on a trip I took up there a couple years ago and couldn't believe the transformation and what it has done for Ohio State. I was thinking the whole time how great that would be for OU to do the same with Main as you enter downtown coming on Main or Flood from I-35 and then down University to Boyd. Maybe if they are successful with the rest of UNP they will have the money to finally do that, it is definitely overdue.

People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on. :)

Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.

However some complaints are justified i thought this was really going to be something yet there is nothing unique to our market yet. I wll of coursehold off final judgement until much later but first imppressions are important. And to all the over eager defenders remember the developer is not paying please don't take made against the project personally.

OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ‘lifestyles’ (http://oudaily.com/news/2008/sep/11/norman-sells-new-lifestyles/)

From the OU Daily article: "Officials are also working on plans for a luxury movie theater that will show lesser-known films on eight to 10 screens. “It’ll deal more with the artistic side and more independent films you might not see at theaters,” Nelson said. “There’s a huge demand for it.”"

Fantastic. I love the Magnolia in Dallas and would love to have a similar theater within a few minutes of the house. I hope people here will give it a chance so it will remain viable. Now if we could just get that Whole Foods...

From the OU Daily article: "Officials are also working on plans for a luxury movie theater that will show lesser-known films on eight to 10 screens. “It’ll deal more with the artistic side and more independent films you might not see at theaters,” Nelson said. “There’s a huge demand for it.”"

Sounds a lot like an Angelika. I think it would work better in a more central location, but I'll settle for Norman. I fear it wouldn't make it down there, though.

Sounds a lot like an Angelika. I think it would work better in a more central location, but I'll settle for Norman. I fear it wouldn't make it down there, though.

You're right, I'm thinking of Angelika and not Magnolia. Wires crossed in the brain. :)

I think a modest project, like a 4 to 6 screen theater (not getting too fancy with the "luxury" part) would have a following, at least until the Christianists get their panties in a wad when the place screens something they don't approve of.

Well the Anglelika in Mockingbird Station is not really very luxury. Not at all compared to the Warren. It's kind of modern and spartan in decor, the theatres are small, and the picture quality is nothing special. It's just that they show things you can't find anywhere else, except the Art Musuem in some cases. The Art Museum theatre, by comparison, is much nicer.

However, it's just a very niche audience on a lot of these films and even the one in Dallas isn't THAT crowded. I know Norman is an "artsy" place, but I think it would be much more likely to survive if it were downtown.

Well the Anglelika in Mockingbird Station is not really very luxury. Not at all compared to the Warren. It's kind of modern and spartan in decor, the theatres are small, and the picture quality is nothing special. It's just that they show things you can't find anywhere else, except the Art Musuem in some cases. The Art Museum theatre, by comparison, is much nicer.

However, it's just a very niche audience on a lot of these films and even the one in Dallas isn't THAT crowded. I know Norman is an "artsy" place, but I think it would be much more likely to survive if it were downtown.

I agree. This whole lifestyle center sounds great and I'm glad Norman will be getting some new stores but I can't stand the location. Main St. would be much better. The city says they are committed to downtown but when they let these kind of developments happen I wonder just how committed they really are. I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.

I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.

I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.

I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.

The 15 minute rule of real-estate dictates that it won't happen. The easy on, easy off access next to I-35 increases the number of roof tops available in the store 15 minute foot print.

The reason this area will continue to attract desirable shopping that might otherwise be located downtown is the sheer demographics available. I love downtown Norman as much as the next guy but it is what it is; hard to get to.

The 15 minute rule of real-estate dictates that it won't happen. The easy on, easy off access next to I-35 increases the number of roof tops available in the store 15 minute foot print.

The reason this area will continue to attract desirable shopping that might otherwise be located downtown is the sheer demographics available. I love downtown Norman as much as the next guy but it is what it is; hard to get to.

Hard to get to? Main, one of the four primary east-west corridors in Norman, runs from the westside straight into downtown and into east Norman. It takes less than 10 min. with traffic to get from I-35 to downtown.

In understand some of the reasoning but many other cities have made it a priority to draw people into the city and off the interstate. Downtown Norman will thrive with or without UNP but it sure would be nice to see some of the stores along a real Main and not the faux Main Street they're building in UNP. Just like Campus Corner is mostly local stores and restaurants so will downtown but unlike CC there aren't very many "anchors" to draw more local businesses which is where a few well-placed national stores and restaurants could help out.

I agree. This whole lifestyle center sounds great and I'm glad Norman will be getting some new stores but I can't stand the location. Main St. would be much better. The city says they are committed to downtown but when they let these kind of developments happen I wonder just how committed they really are. I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.

I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.

I think every store should be in a congested downtown area where you have to park six blocks away to shop there.

I think every store should be in a congested downtown area where you have to park six blocks away to shop there.

You walk more going to a mall or shopping center than you would downtown where there is parking in front of the stores, or not far away, on the street or parking in lots behind. I wouldn't say downtown is congested, although we really need to bring back 2 way traffic on Main. Campus Corner has more issues with parking and really needs a garage. Plus walking is GOOD for you. :biggrin:

Hard to get to? Main, one of the four primary east-west corridors in Norman, runs from the westside straight into downtown and into east Norman. It takes less than 10 min. with traffic to get from I-35 to downtown.

In understand some of the reasoning but many other cities have made it a priority to draw people into the city and off the interstate. Downtown Norman will thrive with or without UNP but it sure would be nice to see some of the stores along a real Main and not the faux Main Street they're building in UNP. Just like Campus Corner is mostly local stores and restaurants so will downtown but unlike CC there aren't very many "anchors" to draw more local businesses which is where a few well-placed national stores and restaurants could help out.

Think of it this way. You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP. One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households. Which one are you going to go with? It's a simple math formula. Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T. In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.

It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman. It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.

As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman? You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm. I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman. Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes. When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes. I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits. In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown. That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.

Think of it this way. You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP. One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households. Which one are you going to go with? It's a simple math formula. Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T. In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.

It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman. It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.

As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman? You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm. I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman. Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes. When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes. I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits. In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown. That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.

And that is truly unfortunate. Downtown could be what ties the very different westside, eastside, and campus areas together in a CENTRAL location but not if everything is located along I-35. For me, by campus, it's a pain to get to the interstate. Also downtown stands to benefit once commuter rail is up and running and I wouldn't be surprised to see stores that initially located in UNP relocate. Downtown Norman will be the finest TOD in the Metro outside of downtown OKC. Just give it time (and make Main 2 way again).

And that is truly unfortunate. Downtown could be what ties the very different westside, eastside, and campus areas together in a CENTRAL location but not if everything is located along I-35. For me, by campus, it's a pain to get to the interstate. Also downtown stands to benefit once commuter rail is up and running and I wouldn't be surprised to see stores that initially located in UNP relocate. Downtown Norman will be the finest TOD in the Metro outside of downtown OKC. Just give it time (and make Main 2 way again).

We shall see. Oh, and I couldn't agree with you more about making Main a 2 way street.

There are rumors floating that the interstate access roads on the east and west side of I-35 in and around the Robinson area are being pushed to be 1 way. I hope that these are just rumors with no substance to them :(

Think of it this way. You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP. One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households. Which one are you going to go with? It's a simple math formula. Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T. In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.

It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman. It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.

As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman? You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm. I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman. Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes. When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes. I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits. In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown. That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.

thats neat and all your fancy figuring but i thought the point was upscale/specialty shops which often tend to favor urban areas. norman needs to more like lawrence; this ugly cookie cutter shopping center filed with stores like ross and dress barn only lessens norman's college town feel.

http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Conferences/GSA07/gifs/DG_Massachusetts-Street.jpg

i think anyone who has been to both and is unbiased will admit mass st is much better than campus corner

http://bp1.blogger.com/_JpYOG27VBVU/R_7ceofvQpI/AAAAAAAAATU/YuZO8i4AbQo/s320/mass.bmp

when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?

Downtown Lawrence : The Heart of the City (http://www.downtownlawrence.com/)

http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Conferences/GSA07/gifs/DG_Massachusetts-Street.jpg

i think anyone who has been to both and is unbiased will admit mass st is much better than campus corner

http://bp1.blogger.com/_JpYOG27VBVU/R_7ceofvQpI/AAAAAAAAATU/YuZO8i4AbQo/s320/mass.bmp

when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?

Downtown Lawrence : The Heart of the City (http://www.downtownlawrence.com/)

I agree. Although Campus Corner is close, and could be even better if University is developed and the "wall" of bars/restaurants/local shops is expanded north on Asp. You couldn't ask for a better location right next to OU. I wouldn't want any of whatever is going in at UNP in Campus Corner, but downtown, especially the rundown part near Main & Flood, could really use some of that retail and restaurant activity. Norman needs to think of itself as a unique college town first, booming OKC suburb second...

amen campus corner has serious potential id like to see a medium to large bookstore (independent or chain) move in

when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?



Saturday.

Saturday.

lol! I concur.