i think the saks/nordstrom/neiman marcus horse is dead.

Ye have little faith...

Norman is by and large far superior to Edmond or Yukon, IMO, but I'll save it for another debate...

Norman has just the development for a Saks.

Really? Based on what?

Norman has a 2003 population estimate of 99,197 and a median income of $36,713 according to epodunk.com.

According to that same site, Edmond has a 2003 est. pop. of 71,643 and a median income of $54,556. Add that to Yukon with its population of 21,152 and its median income of $45,265, add to that the richer parts of Oklahoma City which are probably greater in term of numbers and income, throw in South OKC which is closer to central OKC than it is to Norman, and things start to really come together.

Based on just those two suburbs, the Edmond/Yukon market is better than the Norman market. Factor in Oklahoma City itself, and it's no contest.

A retail establishment like Sak's wants to be within a close proximity to the greatest number of potential customers. Norman does not offer this, central OKC would (as far as this Metro is concerned).

If you have something better than civic pride to argue, please feel free. Otherwise, I think the facts speak for themselves.

You have cleary never been TO Norman...

There's more than just I 35 ya know...

I've been to Norman.

Your response is not responsive. Look at the demographic information I've laid out there. Unless you're just in a complete state of denial, you're just wrong. The best location for a Sak's type store in the metro is not Norman.

Can you give a more compelling reason than I? Your non-responsive response "There's more than just I 35 ya know" doesn't really cut it.

The point is, Norman is not going support a Sak's on its own. You would need the customers from Edmond and NW OKC.

Maybe something will happen on Western with the Chesapeake development. You would then pull the wealthiest part of OKC, Edmond, and Norman.

I am against a Sak's anywhere north of 23rd Street. Period and point-blank. I don't see how that's any better than a Sak's in Norman, which beats the rest of the metro HANDS DOWN.

You honestly could spend a day just literally walking around Norman with a camera, and enjoying the historic homes, urban neighorhoods, the campus, and of course, OU football. This is not something that any other area in the metro, 'cept downtown OKC, can offer up.

One word: Demographics.

Historical homes?? Football? What do those things have to do with high end retail?

Why do you only pick at a portion of my posts? WHY GOD!!! Gets kinda annoying sometimes, you see...

I will defend myself if you wish to continue beating a dead horse, like me and you do in SO MANY threads. When Sak's looks for a location, they will look for a city with CLASS. Hate to break it to you, but Edmond is a suburb, and nothing more than a suburb. So is Yukon, Midwest City, Mustang, Moore, and anywhere else...

Penn Square is a crowded mall with ZERO places to add in. Perhaps somewould could get Dillard's to merge into one location, double the size of that one (adding floors would be necessary) and use a former Dillard's at Penn Square, and expand the hell out of it and upgrade the inside and exterior to look more upscale....

That would be too much hassle I do believe. But you're the expert with the inside connection.

Who said anything about inside connections?

Also, I never said they'd be smart to locate in Edmond, MWC, etc. Those would make worse locations than Norman.

What I did say was that if such an establishment were to locate in Norman, they would essentially be alienating markets like Edmond which would mean the loss of substantial revenues.

Penn Square can be remodeled, multilevel parking can be added, once the I-40 relocation is finished, there will be substantial land available for some major development work in the Bricktown area. A place like Saks could also immediately revitalize the area south of downtown.

High end retail could care less about a city with class. They want money -- that's all. They'll go wherever the money will have the least trouble finding them.

Who said anything about inside connections?


Well you seemed to have it all, I was just saying. In fact, it would seem as if there is no reason to read anyone's post except for Midtowner's...

Thank you, Midtowner, for elaborating on what I was trying to express all along. It seems no one wants to listen to what others have to say unless you have a ton of posts!

Well you seemed to have it all, I was just saying. In fact, it would seem as if there is no reason to read anyone's post except for Midtowner's...

Yeah, well, why would you want to pay attention to a silly thing like income demographics when building a high end retail store... yeah, that's silly.

It's definitely more important to have a football stadium, a smaller presences of proximity to wealth than other potential neighborhoods, and oh yeah... "class" which clearly OKC has none of and Norman has plenty of.

You seem content to discuss the intangibles Norman may have going for it, (which even still is debateable) but you seem a little too unconcerned with the tangibles.

-- which do you think is more important to a high end retail store whose goal is to make money? You're just being stubborn now.

What I see is you objecting to "how" I said that, not "what" I said. I don't even see how "how" is relevent. Perhaps you could fill us in on that as well.

allure....We do listen to people with low post numbers, but you do have to admit you came on here a little strong with the wrangler podunk Oklahoma statements

But I also agree most upscale stores would do better in the metro to pull in customers from all the surrounding burbs

Allure, you're the one that got all hung up on Saks. Not all of us have a hard on for Saks like you do. What, do you have a financial stake in the company or something? Saks isn't the be all end all you think it is. Sure it's nice but it's not the only store in the universe.

All we were saying is that it'd be nice for UNP to have something different and unique to the area. Something a little bit more upscale than the Super Target there or Old Navy. We've done the big box thing and it sucks, no matter how much you think fits Norman. Everyone's tired of the homogeny of having the same thing in every shopping area in every city. Why travel somewhere when you've got all the same stores everywhere else. Big box is what ruined Belle Isle, it could have been a unique place but someone thought we needed another Shoe Carnival.

I'll agree with all that's been said about Saks located in Norman after digging a bit into the company and its clientele. It does make sense that for it to work in the metro area it would need customers from all parts of the metro. Anyway, enough of that I guess.

Moving onto UNP, let's remember that Boren has a say in what goes into the area (which is why the Super Target is a brick structure in the first place). If he wants a store that's more upscale and different than the ones along Big Box parkway, you can bet that there will be a store more upscale in UNP than what Norman already has.

Edmond has had a brick Target for four years. It looks a little better, but at the end of the day, it is still Target. It will be interesting to see if they put anything in UNP that will make it unique. Having a bunch of generic retail stores with a nicer facade isn't going to get it done.

^^Totally Agree

Another point, bricked Super Targets and Super WalMarts are the status quo. The new walmart in Stillwater is Brick. The new stores across the counrty are being built to blend in better. They try and use the tpical building materials of that region.

Oklahoma equals red dirt equals brick.

I doubt Boren had much to do with Target being brick. Target has been building stores with a nicer facade for a while now.

^That's what the article in The Oklahoman stated, I didn't come up with that. Besides, as I said, it's University North Park, and the article did say Boren has an influence into what goes there. And it also mentioned that the focus will be on getting stores that are different and unique to Norman, especially in the new outdoor mall.

On another note, has anyone tried out the new European foods shop on Main? It right down the street from the Sooner Theatre, I heard it has European wines and cheeses among other things.

I don't believe they can sell wine and cheese in the same location.

Ahh well, they don't have wines then, but I heard it's big on European cheeses, 200+ different kinds.

That is cool... has anyone checked it out yet? I am interested to know what Italian cheeses they have.

Is that Embassy Suits sign on the UNP new?

Watchou talkin' bout Willis?

A sign in the development, why yes, would be new. I was in there yesterday shopping at the Target and did not see anything.

^Well, there's supposed to be a hotel and convention center down there, so that might be it.

Anyone know what the new construction starting up north of Target is going to be?

Could the UNP be like the Branson Landing? I am here in Branson, and I thought that the Branson Landing was just awesome! Here is the website Branson Landing-Welcome To The New Branson Landing (http://www.bransonlanding.com/). I think that Norman could support a shopping mall like this. The UNP could support the same style of shopping as the Landing, if not better! The Landing also has condos that the UNP could also support. This could work for Norman. Maybe the same company could come in and do the samething, but bigger and call it the Norman landing.

It is supposed to be something simillar to the landing. Though, the ped mall was indeed downsized. It was supposed to be at a level with Southlake, though obviously, it is not.

There is still a lot of un-planned land that will be included in the development, however.

What is ped mall?
I just hope this is as good as the Landing. Who is controling all this?

Do you know who the developer is?





It's the OU Regents.

Edmond has had a brick Target for four years. It looks a little better, but at the end of the day, it is still Target. It will be interesting to see if they put anything in UNP that will make it unique. Having a bunch of generic retail stores with a nicer facade isn't going to get it done.

Other than the one in Edmond and the one in UNP, every new or remodeled Target I've seen in OKC and elsewhere has been EIFS.

Cool... the point is, who gives a crap about a Target.

I don't mean to be dumb, but what does EIFS mean?

Cool... the point is, who gives a crap about a Target.

Those of us saddled with the same old crap at Walmart do TS....Supertarget blows away Walmart's groceries and deli...Pretty good sushi as well

EIFS = "Exterior Insulation Finishing System(s)" = synthetic stucco.

Can be attractive, but often isn't, and New Urbanist types hate it because it reeks of suburbia.

Not because it wreaks of suburbia, but because it is a cheap, low-quality material.

New Urbanist types hate it because it reeks of suburbia.

EIFS no longer reeks of suburbia - it reeks of all things new. Even here in San Francisco new residential buildings go up covered with this crap. Go to Arizona or Nevada and see every house clad in it. And now they try to trowel it to look like concrete, but it's still the same chemical styrofoam beneath. EIFS is a nifty solution to use... sparingly. But because of its quick installation and affordability people like Randy Hogan use it inhibit the aesthetic of most new developments.

Does anyone know what all the work going on North of Target in UNP is going to be? Is it just one project that they're working on now or many?

I think it's just infrastructure work so when tenants are ready for UNP, the infrastructure will be there so they can start construction sooner. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

K, thanks.

It's a new retail / strip mall center. It's not the big mall that has been talked about.

This is what I know about University North Park:

Target will officially open 10/3/2006. Throughout the center proposed tenants include TJ Maxx, Circuit City, Office Depot, Petco, Kirklands, Dress Barn, Maurices, Rack Room Shoes. PF Changs as well as Pei Wei are heavily considered as possible tenants. Chipolte will be located on an outparcel. Starbucks will be a build-to-suit in Area 1B. JC Penney will be located in Area 2A, while Kohl's will be located in Area 2B. John Q hammons will build Embassy Suites in Area 4 along with a large convention center.

Home Depot is in negotation to take Area 3A, which means the present location on I-35 will be vacated.

Other possible tenants include: high end eateries, Hal Smith type restaurants, Whole Foods, Costco, and The Container Store.

A theatre is planned for the Lifestyle Center however it is to be small and offer dining during the movie.

Sooner Mall is not intending to close and from what it appears Dillards will absorb the vacated JC Penney store, much like Dillards did at Penn Square.

From my understanding, the large theatre planned for Moore is stil underway; however additional investors are being sought before additional financing can be provided.

Unfortunately, University North Park offers the same ol' stuff that is being located at very shopping center in OKC. There is still some available retail bays and restaurant sites that the developer can utilize that will make this development stand out from the rest.

OKYBOY, JCPenny is building a new store in Moore. South of 19th. I appreciate your information but please portray them as your thoughts, not as facts. Could you let us know where you got those ideas? I wouldnt think Home Depot would move two miles north, closer to the big store that is in moore! Either Way, keep up the enthusiasm!

This project needs a tenent like Dave & Busters or Game Works. Also, it needs an entertainment facility like Main Event :: Bowling :: Billiards :: Lasertag :: Videogames :: Rock Clilmbing :: Main Event (http://www.maineventusa.net/). Think outside the box!

If you have ever been to a Dave and Busters, You would like it. I dont think a Main Event would be good with the two new places on indian hills. I think a dave and busters would be perfect. Plus, its half a sports bar and half to play! Big points on that one ETL!

Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today

So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself

Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today

So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself

Yeah, I'm a little disappointed that there aren't bigger players yet..... My guess would be that we won't get any commitments until the city council takes care of the TIF. It's making Hammons wait, so I hope that it all gets worked out and this can get some upscale stuff coming in.....

But the Pei Wei news has me VERY excited..... I am a big fan. :congrats:

Have to agree about Pei Wei...Excellent every time I have eaten there

Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today

So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic about the tj maxx and marshall's, if not I'm not trying to make fun. This was built up to be such a big development, as something special and different for the area but it sounds like now it's just going to be a glorified strip mall. Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic about the tj maxx and marshall's, if not I'm not trying to make fun. This was built up to be such a big development, as something special and different for the area but it sounds like now it's just going to be a glorified strip mall. Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!

Definitely sarcastic...Looks to be just another strip center with those boring tenants....And please please have two or three check cashing places as well...Just can't seem to find any of those places when I am looking for a respectable 56% loan :doh:

Maybe now the "real" unique and more upscale businesses/restaurants will locate in a revitalized downtown Norman/Campus Corner rather than in a development by the highway. I was never going to frequent UNP anyway because it's not near where I live (central Norman). If this was a really stellar development I'd be afraid of it negatively impacting downtown and the Corner but it looks like it won't.

There will be a new AT&T(Cingular) store opening between July and September

I never expected UNP to be a 585 acre development of only upscale shops. However, I do have higher expectations for the lifestyle center. The lifestyle centers in The Woodlands, Plano, and South Lake all have these types of stores around them. 585 acres is huge. I think it is too early to write this development off as a "glorified stripmall". It actually seems like some people hope this does turn out to be a failure just so they can complain about it and say "I told you so". I hope I'm wrong.

I'll take the nicest Super Target I've ever seen over a big mound of dirt (Mt. Williams) any day.

Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!

and Cato and Dollar Tree...

I am excited over the SuperTarget...Made frequent 40 minute drives just to shop there on Memorial....Also excited about Pei Wei coming in....Rest of the list not so much...Same crapola coming in the Moore Strip Center just different names

I too hope there will be some better tenants come along...Definitely don't want it to suck being so close to home

I had high hopes for this development but am now disappointed. With the latest news of the same ol' crap coming to the development, I'm not holding out alot of hope for the lifestyle center.

I dont really mind the "same old crap" stores. I think those are necessary stores to support diversity. Meaning, you have to have some of the old or regular to have some of the new and different. The key point to me is that it doesnt turn into an Ed Noble parkway x2 and even uglier because the back of the stores faces the highway!

Sure, but so far there is no new and different.

Sure, but so far there is no new and different.

thank the Norman City Council.... they are dragging their feet on the TIF and it is putting, not only the more "upscale" shops in jeopardy, but now Hammon's is waiting to begin the hotel and convention center....

so hopefully they get their act together....

It's kind of crazy that Hammons plans a hotel/convention center in UNP and the I-35 & Covell project, and and Embassy Suites downtown.

Sure, but so far there is no new and different.

There isn't old either. Actually, there is nothing but a target.

Why dont you guys lay off of the UNP project. Its not even really underway yet. Have a little faith that they are going to do what they said they are, and thats something bigger and better! How can anyone say there is nothing new or different when there is nothing old and the same?

I think the point of this thread is to talk about what you hear, what you want, what you dont want etc, not bash it before it starts. If you want new and different, talk about that. Dont gripe about something that doesnt exist! There has been no plans finalized saying that we are getting a cingular, a nail place, donut store, dry cleaning and oil change place. So why think thats all its going to be. I'm sorry even those regular "old and the same" stores arent enough to fill up 2.5 million square feet, so obviously we are getting something big and exciting.

CHILL OUT