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Mississippi Blues
06-26-2024, 12:15 AM
Why do people not want cars? You are stuck in a small area unless you pay someone to take you somewhere else.
(I really thought I asked this earlier, but I guess I didn't verify the post went through.)

Not trying to make light of your question, but you mention having to “pay someone to take you somewhere else” like you don’t have to pay to buy a car, maintain it, and insure it. If anything, the cost of owning a car is one of the more well-known barriers to entry of car ownership.

bamarsha
06-26-2024, 07:59 AM
Not trying to make light of your question, but you mention having to “pay someone to take you somewhere else” like you don’t have to pay to buy a car, maintain it, and insure it. If anything, the cost of owning a car is one of the more well-known barriers to entry of car ownership.

That's very true, good point. Maybe I should have went with the original phrasing (that I thought I posted) about being dependent on someone else (not just paying someone else).

I was just curious as I have never even considered not having a car. Just seems getting to work, getting kids to school, going to the store (especially since they made shopping carts harder to "take with you"), and all that gets a lot more complicated.

I may be a little odd here, but I also hate going downtown/midtown (and Penn Square Mall) because of all the traffic and parking issues... but I still need my car. Haha! I was just curious on what the appeal of no car is, so I thought I would ask (since that's the way this convo went).

BoulderSooner
06-26-2024, 08:47 AM
Even if most people still want to own a car and have the freedom to move around both locally and at distance, many still want to live somewhere where cars are truly optional. If your only choice to get around and live your life REQUIRES that you own a car, that’s the OPPOSITE of the freedom you believe cars represent.

and like wise living somewhere that owning a car is only affordable for the ultra rich is also the OPPOSITE of freedom ..

citywokchinesefood
06-26-2024, 09:18 AM
Why do people not want cars? You are stuck in a small area unless you pay someone to take you somewhere else.
(I really thought I asked this earlier, but I guess I didn't verify the post went through.)

It is nice to not have to drive everywhere. I like being able to walk 10-15 minutes and be able to get something I need. It is like having quests IRL.

OkieBerto
06-26-2024, 09:43 AM
Why do people not want cars? You are stuck in a small area unless you pay someone to take you somewhere else.
(I really thought I asked this earlier, but I guess I didn't verify the post went through.)

That conversation thread was likely deleted because it became argumentative and wasn't trending in the right direction. I appreciate that they keep us on the topic even when sometimes I veer wildly off it.

Dob Hooligan
06-26-2024, 10:14 AM
I think being carless is viable for the single and/or childless person who is healthy enough to walk a lot and reside in a "live, work, play" area. I also think that is no more than 15-20% of the population at any given time. I don't think this part of the country is going to have the density to make carless living work for a larger percentage of the population for 100, or more, years.

Teo9969
06-26-2024, 11:49 AM
I'll skip going intoreasons why one might determine car ownership and driving lowers quality of life (not for all, but, yes, for some).

What I will say is that it's a shame that t the very best part of our metropolitan area for no car ownership also having a dearth of housing is incredibly unfortunate. As it is now, there is not a single place in this metro area where not owning a car would be an obvious choice. It would be great if we could at least offer that to a very small amount of people by having some density in this specific area.

Teo9969
06-26-2024, 11:52 AM
And for those that don't immediately know what makes this area so prime for such walkability: it comes down to having 2 grocery stores within 5 blocks of your residence. You have to live close to food for walkability to feel sustainable.

Urbanized
06-26-2024, 11:57 AM
First off, a city being home to BOTH car-oriented suburbs AND dense, walkable areas that don’t always require auto transit are not mutually exclusive. Folks keep talking about this like it’s an either/or.

Also, walkability and great transit should without question be something that every city ASPIRES to. The benefits to health, to long-term municipal budgets, to the economy and to the environment are inarguable. But it’s not like you can just flip a switch. The automobile-driven unraveling of cities from within has gone on for nearly a century. It will likely take generations for cities like OKC to find more balance, but we absolutely should be seeking it.

I just personally get irritated when people equate automobile ownership with freedom. Can an automobile provide one aspect of freedom (the ability to hop into your vehicle at will and drive pretty much anywhere you want)? Of course it does. That part is accurate. But when it is your ONLY choice, an absolutely compulsory - and relatively expensive - type of existence, that is about as far from freedom as you can get.

And again, people can certainly live in a walkable area, where one can walk (or ride a bike) to work, walk to the doctor, walk to the dentist, take advantage of delivery services, frequent nearby dining and entertainment options, all without choosing to drive and yet STILL own and drive a car when they want to or need to. These things are ALSO not mutually exclusive.

And every trip that person makes on foot or on a bicycle instead of being forced to drive keeps their car off the road and benefits everyone else.

Dob Hooligan
06-26-2024, 12:21 PM
First off, a city being home to BOTH car-oriented suburbs AND dense, walkable areas that don’t always require auto transit are not mutually exclusive. Folks keep talking about this like it’s an either/or.

Also, walkability and great transit should without question be something that every city ASPIRES to. The benefits to health, to long-term municipal budgets, to the economy and to the environment are inarguable. But it’s not like you can just flip a switch. The automobile-driven unraveling of cities from within has gone on for nearly a century. It will likely take generations for cities like OKC to find more balance, but we absolutely should be seeking it.

I just personally get irritated when people equate automobile ownership with freedom. Can an automobile provide one aspect of freedom (the ability to hop into your vehicle at will and drive pretty much anywhere you want)? Of course it does. That part is accurate. But when it is your ONLY choice, an absolutely compulsory - and relatively expensive - type of existence, that is about as far from freedom as you can get.

And again, people can certainly live in a walkable area, where one can walk (or ride a bike) to work, walk to the doctor, walk to the dentist, take advantage of delivery services, frequent nearby dining and entertainment options, all without choosing to drive and yet STILL own and drive a car when they want to or need to. These things are ALSO not mutually exclusive.

And every trip that person makes on foot or on a bicycle instead of being forced to drive keeps their car off the road and benefits everyone else.

Seems to me that auto ownership is a cost of increased mobility, and not necessarily a burden. Just as living in any dwelling has a cost. A luxury apartment in NH is more expensive than living at the YMCA, yet both are costs of living.

OkieBerto
06-26-2024, 01:32 PM
First off, a city being home to BOTH car-oriented suburbs AND dense, walkable areas that don’t always require auto transit are not mutually exclusive. Folks keep talking about this like it’s an either/or.

Also, walkability and great transit should without question be something that every city ASPIRES to. The benefits to health, to long-term municipal budgets, to the economy and to the environment are inarguable. But it’s not like you can just flip a switch. The automobile-driven unraveling of cities from within has gone on for nearly a century. It will likely take generations for cities like OKC to find more balance, but we absolutely should be seeking it.

I just personally get irritated when people equate automobile ownership with freedom. Can an automobile provide one aspect of freedom (the ability to hop into your vehicle at will and drive pretty much anywhere you want)? Of course it does. That part is accurate. But when it is your ONLY choice, an absolutely compulsory - and relatively expensive - type of existence, that is about as far from freedom as you can get.

And again, people can certainly live in a walkable area, where one can walk (or ride a bike) to work, walk to the doctor, walk to the dentist, take advantage of delivery services, frequent nearby dining and entertainment options, all without choosing to drive and yet STILL own and drive a car when they want to or need to. These things are ALSO not mutually exclusive.

And every trip that person makes on foot or on a bicycle instead of being forced to drive keeps their car off the road and benefits everyone else.

^^^^^^This 100%

Pete
06-26-2024, 02:02 PM
Freedom is the choice of having a car or not having a car.

It would be nice if OKC offered more (any?) places to live that provided such a choice.

PhiAlpha
06-26-2024, 02:28 PM
Having the option not to drive is great. Living in downtown Tulsa I had enough restaurants, bodega type stores, coffee shops etc nearby that I could walk or scooter to that I would often realize that I hadn’t even been downstairs to my parking garage in over a week or two. I wouldn’t ever have given up the car but it was nice being able to go weeks without needing to drive anywhere.

soonerguru
06-26-2024, 05:15 PM
I think being carless is viable for the single and/or childless person who is healthy enough to walk a lot and reside in a "live, work, play" area. I also think that is no more than 15-20% of the population at any given time. I don't think this part of the country is going to have the density to make carless living work for a larger percentage of the population for 100, or more, years.

This is a defeatist perspective and the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This isn't an argument about the pros and cons of not having a car. Drive all you want. Yes, in other cities people have families and don't own a car. It's entirely possible to do it.

No one is telling anyone to give up their automobile. Great cities have areas in which it is possible to live without a car. Let's be a better city than we are. It's very possible for OKC to pull off in a few areas. As others have pointed out, some areas lack only a few services to make this type of life possible.

Yes, we can do it in OKC in certain areas, and no it will not take 100 years.

bamarsha
06-27-2024, 08:35 AM
My original question was in response to "not wanting a car at all". That is what I would have a hard time wrapping my head around. I guess I just do too much of a variety of things (though it certainly doesn't seem that way anymore). I understand not using your car much, but still having one to use. However, not having a car at all would greatly limit your employment options (unless remote work continues, though this seems to be slowly trending down, maybe to hybird level at most). Also, shopping for a family, not sure I want to carry 30 bags full of groceries for a good distance, or eating at the same 10 restaurants all the time. I understand some walking is good for you, but not when the heat index is 120ºF or wind chill is -20ºF. It's thing like this is what I was asking about... "not wanting a car at all". Are the housing options really that affordable in these areas that a grocery store or restaurant job can support you?

Pete
06-27-2024, 08:57 AM
I've lived within walking distance of a grocery store, and you don't carry 10 bags, you merely walk over when you need something.

You can also Uber or ride your bike to anywhere you want to go, so it's not like you still can't go to any restaurant or store you want.

Teo9969
06-27-2024, 09:19 AM
You also have Embark on Western, so you could easily have employment anywhere downtown or all the way up to Mercy.

Teo9969
06-27-2024, 09:23 AM
I've lived within walking distance of a grocery store, and you don't carry 10 bags, you merely walk over when you need something.

You can also Uber or ride your bike to anywhere you want to go, so it's not like you still can't go to any restaurant or store you want.

There are also tools to make walking 5 blocks with a lot of groceries much more manageable. We just don't ever see them here because it's so uncommon.

OkieBerto
06-27-2024, 09:29 AM
I think being carless is viable for the single and/or childless person who is healthy enough to walk a lot and reside in a "live, work, play" area. I also think that is no more than 15-20% of the population at any given time. I don't think this part of the country is going to have the density to make carless living work for a larger percentage of the population for 100, or more, years.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but the last part ignores the current economy and what developers are creating as we speak. Most of the more significant developments have Live/work spaces, understanding that office work will die off. Oak even downsized its office building, realizing it was not viable. However, they built many apartments right next to their retail and restaurants. Also, car makers are raising the prices of their vehicles without a consumer base to buy them.

Dob Hooligan
06-27-2024, 09:59 AM
I've lived within walking distance of a grocery store, and you don't carry 10 bags, you merely walk over when you need something.

You can also Uber or ride your bike to anywhere you want to go, so it's not like you still can't go to any restaurant or store you want.

Yes, Pete....but...you OWN a car. You are single, healthy and own a car. I freely admit it is possible for those who are of a station in life such as yourself.

I'm in my 60s. I work in a blue collar business that will never have a work from home component. My "Stay at home wife" at the time and I have raised 2 kids. Kids who went to different schools and had different activities. Seems like as kids get older the schools get farther away from each other. Elementary is closer to home than Middle School and High Schools is farther still. It is not easy to have a church of your faith and doctrine within walking distance.

In the 1990s we lived in Mid Town, I worked near the Fairgrounds; went to church in The Village; schools were in Mesta Park, then West Nichols Hills, then Sheperd Mall. Doctors, counselors and tutors were all over town.

That is life experience than makes me question how utopian a car-less life would be in Oklahoma City.

cinnamonjock
06-27-2024, 10:41 AM
I've walked to the grocery store many times. Easiest way to do it is to take your child so you can load up the stroller with your bags

Pete
06-27-2024, 10:43 AM
Yes, Pete....but...you OWN a car. You are single, healthy and own a car. I freely admit it is possible for those who are of a station in life such as yourself.

I'm in my 60s. I work in a blue collar business that will never have a work from home component. My "Stay at home wife" at the time and I have raised 2 kids. Kids who went to different schools and had different activities. Seems like as kids get older the schools get farther away from each other. Elementary is closer to home than Middle School and High Schools is farther still. It is not easy to have a church of your faith and doctrine within walking distance.

In the 1990s we lived in Mid Town, I worked near the Fairgrounds; went to church in The Village; schools were in Mesta Park, then West Nichols Hills, then Sheperd Mall. Doctors, counselors and tutors were all over town.

That is life experience than makes me question how utopian a car-less life would be in Oklahoma City.

Absolutely nobody is saying you shouldn't own a car.

People are merely advocating to have that as an option in OKC.

OKCTalker
06-27-2024, 10:50 AM
There’s been no mention here (that I’ve seen) of a motor scooter. In addition to owning a car and bicycle, I ride my scooter whenever possible. It reduces mileage on my car, it’s a lot of fun, and I see/smell/hear things better than in the car. I’m frequently asked where I bought it and how much it costs, many times by those who appear to have economic challenges. I don’t ride on highways, at night or in the rain, and I take the car when buying large items, but for 95% of my needs it fits the bill.

dankrutka
06-27-2024, 11:36 AM
My original question was in response to "not wanting a car at all". That is what I would have a hard time wrapping my head around. I guess I just do too much of a variety of things (though it certainly doesn't seem that way anymore). I understand not using your car much, but still having one to use. However, not having a car at all would greatly limit your employment options (unless remote work continues, though this seems to be slowly trending down, maybe to hybird level at most). Also, shopping for a family, not sure I want to carry 30 bags full of groceries for a good distance, or eating at the same 10 restaurants all the time. I understand some walking is good for you, but not when the heat index is 120ºF or wind chill is -20ºF. It's thing like this is what I was asking about... "not wanting a car at all". Are the housing options really that affordable in these areas that a grocery store or restaurant job can support you?

Many of your assumptions are grounded in a car-centric view of the world. Again, I don't own a car. Admittedly, my wife does and I use it about once a month, but it's usually for long distance trips. First, not owning a car in a car-centric city requires planning. You seek and live in the most walkable neighborhood that is near your work. If your work is in a car-centric sprawl then it, of course, would be harder. My job is 7 blocks from where I live. I spend 95% of my life within two square miles. I bike and walk almost everywhere. I never get tired of the restaurant, bar, or entertainment options. There's enough within a couple blocks that there are places I only go to 1-2 times a year. I am regular at other places and get to know workers and others in the area. This is one of the biggest perks of living in a walkable place—you get to know people and they get to know you. Here's some other responses to your concerns:

- Groceries: As Pete stated, getting 30 bags of groceries is a product of sprawl. Historically, most people only got groceries for the next day or two because there's a grocery store or bodega in a walkable neighborhood. The Homeland on 16th is probably the best option for many in OKC. However, this problem is largely solved with grocery delivery services.
- Temperatures: I've never had any problem with temperatures from 20 degrees to 105 degrees, or rain or snow. You just dress/plan for it. It's really not a big deal. Even when the whether is bad, there is still something so enjoyable about biking. I love it.
- Housing: My apartment is in the prime entertainment district in my city. My rent is high... but you have to factor in how many areas in which I save money. I have no car insurance, require no gas, have no lawn to maintain, have no repairs I have to pay for. While rent is higher, everything else is lower.

We don't have kids or pets. That definitely makes it easier to live in a walkable neighborhood, but if we did have either, there are condos that I would move to a couple blocks away. Again, no one is saying everyone has to live this way, but I believe every city should strive to make it a possible option for anyone who wants it.

BoulderSooner
06-27-2024, 11:45 AM
Historically, most people only got groceries for the next day or two because there's a grocery store or bodega in a walkable neighborhood. .

historically when and where ..

because that was NEVER the case in most of the United States

TheTravellers
06-27-2024, 11:51 AM
historically when and where ..

because that was NEVER the case in most of the United States

Didn't tons of cities have shops/small grocery or general stores every few (for varying definitions of few) blocks in tons of neighborhoods at some point in the past (50+ years ago? Driving around Milwaukee when we lived there, we saw a lot of bars every 5 blocks or so that looked like they could've been stores in the past, just as one example.

dankrutka
06-27-2024, 11:55 AM
historically when and where ..

because that was NEVER the case in most of the United States

Prior to WWII in much of the U.S.

BoulderSooner
06-27-2024, 11:57 AM
Prior to WWII in much of the U.S.

the huge majority of the US is and was rural ..

that hasn't changed .. and the % of people that lived in rural USA was higher back then

dankrutka
06-27-2024, 12:03 PM
the huge majority of the US is and was rural ..

that hasn't changed .. and the % of people that lived in rural USA was higher back then

No, it wasn't a "huge majority." The majority of people lived in "urban" areas in the U.S. by 1920, but even smaller towns had main streets that people visited a local grocer fairly frequently. Anyway, while we wait for your full report on food sourcing demographics over U.S. history, let's just agree that a lot of people living in walkable communities got groceries from a local, neighborhood grocer. It was pretty common, which was the main point.

TheTravellers
06-27-2024, 12:03 PM
the huge majority of the US is and was rural ..

that hasn't changed .. and the % of people that lived in rural USA was higher back then

Goalpost moving? Aren't we talking about cities, not the entire US as a whole?

soonerguru
06-27-2024, 01:12 PM
My original question was in response to "not wanting a car at all". That is what I would have a hard time wrapping my head around. I guess I just do too much of a variety of things (though it certainly doesn't seem that way anymore). I understand not using your car much, but still having one to use. However, not having a car at all would greatly limit your employment options (unless remote work continues, though this seems to be slowly trending down, maybe to hybird level at most). Also, shopping for a family, not sure I want to carry 30 bags full of groceries for a good distance, or eating at the same 10 restaurants all the time. I understand some walking is good for you, but not when the heat index is 120ºF or wind chill is -20ºF. It's thing like this is what I was asking about... "not wanting a car at all". Are the housing options really that affordable in these areas that a grocery store or restaurant job can support you?

We have multiple grocery delivery services. We have buses. We have Uber and Lyft. We have bicycle lanes. People have motorbikes and scooters. Expand your imagination a bit, bro.

soonerguru
06-27-2024, 01:13 PM
the huge majority of the US is and was rural ..

that hasn't changed .. and the % of people that lived in rural USA was higher back then

This is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

soonerguru
06-27-2024, 01:17 PM
It should be worth noting that at one time, families had one vehicle, not multiple vehicles. Even making it possible for people to reduce the number of vehicles they own would add another dimension to OKC's quality of life.

Owning a car is expensive. Car payment, insurance, upkeep, and fuel really add up. If you are live closely to most of the services you need, you could limit your ride share rides and bus fares and save a ton of money. Even a weekly trip to the grocery store could be done via ride share for about $30 round trip.

OkieBerto
06-27-2024, 01:52 PM
historically when and where ..

because that was NEVER the case in most of the United States

Historically, Neighborhoods like the Paseo, Edgemere, Jefferson Park, Linwood Place, and S&S grocery still exists in Las Vegas, Pennville, and Youngs-Englewood. It is appalling to me how many people never spend time in the old urban core neighborhoods. Some, like the Plaza District, used to be such places. Those neighborhoods also have sidewalks and large parks. It is Suburban and Rural parts of the US that decided not to build such things.

BoulderSooner
06-27-2024, 02:00 PM
Historically, Neighborhoods like the Paseo, Edgemere, Jefferson Park, Linwood Place, and S&S grocery still exists in Las Vegas, Pennville, and Youngs-Englewood. It is appalling to me how many people never spend time in the old urban core neighborhoods. Some, like the Plaza District, used to be such places. Those neighborhoods also have sidewalks and large parks. It is Suburban and Rural parts of the US that decided not to build such things.

show me the walkable grocery in Harrah in 1930 or 1940 ..

OkieBerto
06-27-2024, 02:18 PM
show me the walkable grocery in Harrah in 1930 or 1940 ..

The Town of Sweeney was renamed Harrah after Frank Harrah, a man who owned a dry goods and grocery store. It survived the Great Depression because of the Oklahoma Gas and Electric Company's electrical generating station. Most who lived there likely walked to the grocers every day. A simple look at the history of Harrah would have told you that.

bamarsha
06-27-2024, 02:23 PM
This has been a very interesting discussion for me... we have a pretty diverse group of people here. I appreciate the feedback.

I grew up an a very small town (probably the size of some neighborhoods here). While I am sure some people did walk to the local grocery store, I don't remember anyone ever doing so. We had to drive about 30 miles to get to the nearest Wal-Mart and about 75 miles to get to the nearest McDonald's. As a kid, we rode I bikes to the convenient store (so we could get cokes and candy without our parents knowing, but that's back when it was safe to play outside). I even remember my granddad taking a trip to The City (that's OKC in small town talk) to go to Sam's Club. I still go to Sam's and then the WM Supercenter right by it, weekly... my entire trunk is full most weeks (I like buying in bulk, normally cheaper). I couldn't imagine going to the store more than once a week.

The no car idea so just so odd to me (probably based on the way I grew up). After reading here, I can definitely see how/why some people would like to minimize their car usage in these work-live-play areas, though... just not probably for me.

BoulderSooner
06-27-2024, 02:30 PM
The Town of Sweeney was renamed Harrah after Frank Harrah, a man who owned a dry goods and grocery store. It survived the Great Depression because of the Oklahoma Gas and Electric Company's electrical generating station. Most who lived there likely walked to the grocers every day. A simple look at the history of Harrah would have told you that.

lol no

you should let my family know this .... they were not walking to the grocery store daily ..

Oski
06-27-2024, 02:31 PM
I'm curious, why don't they keep the garage unless it's structurally damaged, so they can develop around it later?

OkieBerto
06-27-2024, 02:35 PM
This has been a very interesting discussion for me... we have a pretty diverse group of people here. I appreciate the feedback.

I grew up an a very small town (probably the size of some neighborhoods here). While I am sure some people did walk to the local grocery store, I don't remember anyone ever doing so. We had to drive about 30 miles to get to the nearest Wal-Mart and about 75 miles to get to the nearest McDonald's. As a kid, we rode I bikes to the convenient store (so we could get cokes and candy without our parents knowing, but that's back when it was safe to play outside). I even remember my granddad taking a trip to The City (that's OKC in small town talk) to go to Sam's Club. I still go to Sam's and then the WM Supercenter right by it, weekly... my entire trunk is full most weeks (I like buying in bulk, normally cheaper). I couldn't imagine going to the store more than once a week.

The no car idea so just so odd to me (probably based on the way I grew up). After reading here, I can definitely see how/why some people would like to minimize their car usage in these work-live-play areas, though... just not probably for me.

That is the point. Options. If someone wants to own cars and drive them everywhere all the time, I have no problem with that. It just strikes me as odd to not want more options for transportation.

Dob Hooligan
06-27-2024, 02:54 PM
I'm curious, why don't they keep the garage unless it's structurally damaged, so they can develop around it later?

It is expensive to maintain and insure. It doesn't have any tenant, so it would be a cavern for the homeless and unruly element. It probably doesn't fit in the future layout. It is probably worth more if it is removed and attached as part of the overall property damage amount. They might need someone to guarantee there is zero structural damage before it could be occupied.

Pete
06-27-2024, 02:57 PM
^
I bet they were getting heat from the surrounding businesses and the City in general because the site looks terrible. Big investments have been made in all immediate directions and for a couple of years now, you have a charred concrete parking garage and weeds and mud.

baralheia
06-29-2024, 07:38 AM
Didn't tons of cities have shops/small grocery or general stores every few (for varying definitions of few) blocks in tons of neighborhoods at some point in the past (50+ years ago? Driving around Milwaukee when we lived there, we saw a lot of bars every 5 blocks or so that looked like they could've been stores in the past, just as one example.

You can even still find evidence of this in some of OKC's older neighborhoods

Rover
06-29-2024, 09:15 AM
You can even still find evidence of this in some of OKC's older neighborhoods

Seems like they were convenience stores before 7-11 and other gasoline marketers took over.

mrdude
06-30-2024, 09:12 PM
It should be worth noting that at one time, families had one vehicle, not multiple vehicles. Even making it possible for people to reduce the number of vehicles they own would add another dimension to OKC's quality of life.

Owning a car is expensive. Car payment, insurance, upkeep, and fuel really add up. If you are live closely to most of the services you need, you could limit your ride share rides and bus fares and save a ton of money. Even a weekly trip to the grocery store could be done via ride share for about $30 round trip.

This. Family of 5 in Edmond (downtown/central) and one WFH parent. Car insurance and following the false belief the cars need to both be new, even the non commuter one. Granted the location and WFH is a huge advantage, all our amenities are within walking distance, I’m also a cyclist that can get anywhere I need via that, walking or city link. Once you start alternative transportation you’ll start framing a different POV and differing ways to utilize resources and suddenly those car insurance premiums, tagging, maintenance, gas for multiple vehicles just aren’t missed after awhile. I realize everyone has different needs but in this economy if I was single living alone car dependency locations would still be a turn off.

mugofbeer
06-30-2024, 09:36 PM
You can even still find evidence of this in some of OKC's older neighborhoods

There are dozens of these neighborhood retail zones in the Denver metro and virtually all have gentrified like 16th / lndiana area. However, none serve their original purpose - ie. small gas station, small grocer, etc.

rte66man
07-05-2024, 07:39 AM
The Town of Sweeney was renamed Harrah after Frank Harrah, a man who owned a dry goods and grocery store. It survived the Great Depression because of the Oklahoma Gas and Electric Company's electrical generating station. Most who lived there likely walked to the grocers every day. A simple look at the history of Harrah would have told you that.

I'm willing to bet the grocery store had delivery as an option. Might have been a kid on a bike or a delivery truck. Also, we forget that most people got their dairy perishables from the milkman, who delivered every morning.

soonerguru
07-05-2024, 11:17 AM
There are dozens of these neighborhood retail zones in the Denver metro and virtually all have gentrified like 16th / lndiana area. However, none serve their original purpose - ie. small gas station, small grocer, etc.

I realize you live there, but Denver is not relevant to every discussion about OKC urban planning.

mugofbeer
07-07-2024, 09:50 PM
Then don't respond. Have a nice day! :)

OkieBerto
07-08-2024, 09:40 AM
I'm willing to bet the grocery store had delivery as an option. Might have been a kid on a bike or a delivery truck. Also, we forget that most people got their dairy perishables from the milkman, who delivered every morning.

It is insane how many people think small towns were filled with cars. Walking to the grocery store happened on the daily. Yes, some used vehicles, especially if they were on a farm just outside of town. Those who lived within the city limits likely walked or had them delivered. I do not understand anyone who thinks that cars were the only way people got around.

OkieBerto
07-08-2024, 09:52 AM
I realize you live there, but Denver is not relevant to every discussion about OKC urban planning.

We could learn a lot from the way Denver creates Living Retail zones. Most people I know who live there either want to be in a zone or live close to a zone. An excellent example of this is Cherry Creek North (https://cherrycreeknorth.com/visiting-us/hotels). This place has hotels, apartments, wellness studios, restaurants, coffee shops, event venues, etc. If the company behind Classen Curve brings housing to this location, it would make for one of the most desirable places to live in the city.

19005

Oski
07-08-2024, 10:38 AM
^^^

I wish Oklahoma City had more development groups capable of creating neighborhoods like that. Some areas in OKC, such as the Lower Scissortail Park neighborhood, would benefit more from a master plan rather than being left entirely in the hands of private developers.

BG918
07-08-2024, 11:32 AM
We could learn a lot from the way Denver creates Living Retail zones. Most people I know who live there either want to be in a zone or live close to a zone. An excellent example of this is Cherry Creek North (https://cherrycreeknorth.com/visiting-us/hotels). This place has hotels, apartments, wellness studios, restaurants, coffee shops, event venues, etc. If the company behind Classen Curve brings housing to this location, it would make for one of the most desirable places to live in the city.

19005

Cherry Creek North is very walkable and you easily could live there without a car. That being said, it's also one of the most expensive neighborhoods in an already very expensive city so out of reach for most people to live there. And it's not very well-connected to the rest of the city via transit - bus lines only in a city with hundreds of miles of light/commuter rail.

OkieBerto
07-08-2024, 11:50 AM
Cherry Creek North is very walkable and you easily could live there without a car. That being said, it's also one of the most expensive neighborhoods in an already very expensive city so out of reach for most people to live there. And it's not very well-connected to the rest of the city via transit - bus lines only in a city with hundreds of miles of light/commuter rail.

Denver is costly, but I am talking about design and function over price, considering we are far from that type of pricing here. Taking ideas from this development to make the ones we already have can make ours even better. Classen Curve is connected to transit; it has two grocery stores, retail, restaurants, a hotel, and room to grow. It also has multiple established neighborhoods surrounding it. Will the location and amenities be a little pricey? Yep.

BG918
07-08-2024, 01:26 PM
Denver is costly, but I am talking about design and function over price, considering we are far from that type of pricing here. Taking ideas from this development to make the ones we already have can make ours even better. Classen Curve is connected to transit; it has two grocery stores, retail, restaurants, a hotel, and room to grow. It also has multiple established neighborhoods surrounding it. Will the location and amenities be a little pricey? Yep.

I agree with you - as far as being able to walk to grocery, restaurants, retail and central location within OKC the Classen Curve area cannot be beat. Hopefully more companies make the CHK campus home so there are more jobs in the area too. I’m bullish on residential at Classen Curve as well as the area just east of Nichols Hills Plaza (east of Western and north of 63rd). Add in a commuter rail stop at 63rd and you could easily have one of the largest TOD’s outside of downtown.

PhiAlpha
07-08-2024, 07:42 PM
We could learn a lot from the way Denver creates Living Retail zones. Most people I know who live there either want to be in a zone or live close to a zone. An excellent example of this is Cherry Creek North (https://cherrycreeknorth.com/visiting-us/hotels). This place has hotels, apartments, wellness studios, restaurants, coffee shops, event venues, etc. If the company behind Classen Curve brings housing to this location, it would make for one of the most desirable places to live in the city.

19005

Tennyson Street in the Highlands/Berkley area has become really great too.

OkieBerto
07-09-2024, 09:49 AM
Tennyson Street in the Highlands/Berkley area has become really great too.

Every time I am in Denver, I go to Tennyson Street. A great example of using new and old development to make for a better retail village. It has everything the surrounding neighborhoods need and is so walkable.

traxx
07-09-2024, 03:58 PM
DenTalk dot com

mugofbeer
07-13-2024, 10:15 PM
There's only so much talking you can do about one apt. complex that burned down and nothing is happening right now. Why not talk about successful renovated retail/living/business districts?

BG918
07-14-2024, 09:43 AM
With retail likely going in along NW 63 north of the Canton site I don’t think this project needs to be mixed-use. Higher end apartments would do really well here. If you start to make it more mixed-use by adding retail podiums or increase density where you can’t build with wood-framing (over 5 stories) the project likely doesn’t pencil. Even with the current design and construction costs it likely is right on the edge. I bet Hines is watching very closely how the OAK apartments lease up which would be similar top-of-market rents.