I do agree with you here, have said that not everybody needs to go to college for years now. Some people just aren't cut out for college-type classes/careers, for many reasons. Trade/vocational schools need to not be looked down upon, and college degrees are not the end-all, be-all means to success. The number being thrown around is $1.5 trillion in current student debt, and that's absolutely ridiculous. If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably still get my degree, but maybe not in today's world because of the insane cost of higher education. I went to CSU (now UCO) from 83-89, was on a scholarship for my first year, paid my own way the 2nd year, and middle of my junior year I got on the co-op education program with the DoD and they paid for all my school from then on out, so I had no debt when I graduated. I'd have loved to work with wood/houses/buildings in some fashion (not plumbing) instead of waggling my fingers over a keyboard to make magic happen, and that would've probably ended up making me as much money as I do now. I believe that in Europe they do assessments and help students figure out which path to go down, not sure they do that as much here, but schooling in Europe seems to be smarter and more well-done than it is here in a lot of ways.

Nobody says everyone needs to go to college. But OK is near the bottom % of those that do and those that actually complete. This idea that anyone is claiming everyone needs to be a Rhodes Scholar is absurd. In OK we can't attract tech or other high paying jobs to the state because we don't have an available pool of workers educated enough to do it. Notice I didn't say SMART enough. If someone wants to drive a truck or hoe a row of vegetables, more power to them. But if a kid hasn't received a quality education by the time they are 20, it's darn hard for them to overcome it and go get a job as an engineer. We are limiting too many of our kids who would rather do something differently than labor for the man and are capable of doing more. We expect too little and yet we can't even reach that bar.

Nobody says everyone needs to go to college. But OK is near the bottom % of those that do and those that actually complete. This idea that anyone is claiming everyone needs to be a Rhodes Scholar is absurd. In OK we can't attract tech or other high paying jobs to the state because we don't have an available pool of workers educated enough to do it. Notice I didn't say SMART enough. If someone wants to drive a truck or hoe a row of vegetables, more power to them. But if a kid hasn't received a quality education by the time they are 20, it's darn hard for them to overcome it and go get a job as an engineer. We are limiting too many of our kids who would rather do something differently than labor for the man and are capable of doing more. We expect too little and yet we can't even reach that bar.

I agree, our K-12 needs to be better, and during that K-12 time, paths need to be figured out - is this kid better at college-type things and they should be directed that-a-way, or are they better suited to a trade, and if so, then send them down that path. Not sure how it works now, but seems like there wasn't much direction or counseling back when I went, kids were kinda on their own, and I knew what way I was going by myself (always been very self-directed), and had the grades/ability to go to college, so I did. Others aren't so lucky and need direction, and as I said, I believe European countries do that and we should do better at it here in America (and specifically OK).

I agree, our K-12 needs to be better, and during that K-12 time, paths need to be figured out - is this kid better at college-type things and they should be directed that-a-way, or are they better suited to a trade, and if so, then send them down that path. Not sure how it works now, but seems like there wasn't much direction or counseling back when I went, kids were kinda on their own, and I knew what way I was going by myself (always been very self-directed), and had the grades/ability to go to college, so I did. Others aren't so lucky and need direction, and as I said, I believe European countries do that and we should do better at it here in America (and specifically OK).

So what happened to parents giving good advice? What happened to parents encouraging their kids to get educated to make the best possible life for themselves and giving them the most options? The government shouldn’t know more about your kids and your family’s ambitions and pride than the parents. When parents don’t care or don’t get involved with their kids then we get what we have. It’s easier to give your kids a pass than to give them ambition, courage and drive.

So what happened to parents giving good advice? What happened to parents encouraging their kids to get educated to make the best possible life for themselves and giving them the most options? The government shouldn’t know more about your kids and your family’s ambitions and pride than the parents. When parents don’t care or don’t get involved with their kids then we get what we have. It’s easier to give your kids a pass than to give them ambition, courage and drive.

Oklahoma ranks first in the nation for incarcerated mothers. Top Five for teen pregnancy ages 15-19. These parents might have other things on their plate, so maybe the government should know more than the parents. That's how things like HeadStart get funded.

So what happened to parents giving good advice? What happened to parents encouraging their kids to get educated to make the best possible life for themselves and giving them the most options? The government shouldn’t know more about your kids and your family’s ambitions and pride than the parents. When parents don’t care or don’t get involved with their kids then we get what we have. It’s easier to give your kids a pass than to give them ambition, courage and drive.

Dunno, we don't have kids, and my parents just pretty much let me and my brother be, because we pretty much knew what our situation was and where we wanted to go, but yeah, *everybody* needs to be involved in kids' lives/education (parents, teachers, government, counselors, kids). Edmond Hausfrau does have a good point, also.

Oklahoma ranks first in the nation for incarcerated mothers. Top Five for teen pregnancy ages 15-19. These parents might have other things on their plate, so maybe the government should know more than the parents. That's how things like HeadStart get funded.
But this is a red red state and red doesn’t believe in social programs for help. They also don’t trust the govt. they’d rather be ignorant and poor

But this is a red red state and red doesn’t believe in social programs for help. They also don’t trust the govt. they’d rather be ignorant and poor

That is most applicable to the long time declining small towns in Oklahoma, which don't have much going for them anyway. It might help the rest of the state to not have any leading legislators from there.

https://okpolicy.org/another-year-goes-oklahoma-still-leads-nation-cuts-education/

https://okpolicy.org/report-despite-gains-from-teacher-walkout-oklahoma-school-funding-is-still-way-down/

First two results from a simple google search: Oklahoma education funding.

RedDollar brought up that Oklahoma has $24 billion to work with, a huge amount, yet, state departments are underfunded. A Logan County Commissioner I know of complained about lack of funding for the roads in his district with legislators not paying attention to him. It's 3rd world like with old bridges still being used built during the days of wagons and tin lizzies. If I'm right, the many millions swiped from the State Road and Bridge Fund are far from restored. As I recall, Republicans demanded an audit to find out why so many millions were missing from that fund. As it turned out, it was revealed Republicans had to swipe from it to balance the state budget. With the state obviously so poorly run, I don't think legislators deserve such a huge raise.

^^^^ I’m torn on the raises for legislators. On one hand Oklahoma has so much potential that’s been hindered by many of the far right conservative policies and the other there has been some good progress made in Oklahoma despite all of that.

I may be in the minority here, but I really think we should be paying our “public servants” more where those without means can actually live off of this job. We treat the people who guide the future of our community like volunteers doing it for fun yet it is a full time and a very important one at that. The only people that seem to be able to make things work are those who are rich or those willing to be bought out and paid for by special interests.

^^^^ I’m torn on the raises for legislators. On one hand Oklahoma has so much potential that’s been hindered by many of the far right conservative policies and the other there has been some good progress made in Oklahoma despite all of that.

I may be in the minority here, but I really think we should be paying our “public servants” more where those without means can actually live off of this job. We treat the people who guide the future of our community like volunteers doing it for fun yet it is a full time and a very important one at that. The only people that seem to be able to make things work are those who are rich or those willing to be bought out and paid for by special interests.

But this is a red red state and red doesnÂ’t believe in social programs for help. They also donÂ’t trust the govt. theyÂ’d rather be ignorant and poor

I really don't agree with what was said here. Conservatives believe in social programs, we just don't put up with wasteful spending, and social programs are an easy channel for inflated budgets or mismanagement of funds. Oklahoma has a money management problem, and this has come up many times in the past where contractors for the state are overpaid, money used for personal expenses. The list goes on and on.

America by and large has gotten into a very dangerous habit of tribalizing political parties and using that as grounds for empty, useless debates that politicize issues such as education, mental health and medicare. All I hear is red this, blue that, right wing, hard left. It's all talk and no action. The problem is - Republican or Democrat - we don't hold our lawmakers accountable. We're too busy attacking the opposite party. It's a symptom of a bigger problem and its evidence of a society in decay.

Until this country wises up and starts exercising even a 10th of the maturity it used to have, then these problems will just continue to quantify. Too many politicians anymore are too absorbed in their careers. Don't think for a second they actually give a crap about the people in their district.

This thread is really about a topic that isn't worth discussion. Comparing OKC growth to Dallas growth... Dallas is an entirely different animal. In the 1980s, when oil went bust, Texas went pro-business. Oklahoma did not. Instead, Oklahoma simply kept raising taxes to do nothing but keep the lights on in state government and did little or nothing to attract new business. Population in Texas continued to grow, Oklahoma as a whole lost population between 1982 and 1989 and struggled throughout the 1990s. Can't change history.

This thread is really about a topic that isn't worth discussion. Comparing OKC growth to Dallas growth... Dallas is an entirely different animal. In the 1980s, when oil went bust, Texas went pro-business. Oklahoma did not. Instead, Oklahoma simply kept raising taxes to do nothing but keep the lights on in state government and did little or nothing to attract new business. Population in Texas continued to grow, Oklahoma as a whole lost population between 1982 and 1989 and struggled throughout the 1990s. Can't change history.
But beginning under Gov. Keating in the 1990s income tax got cut. Also a new law was voted upon making tax hikes in the state legislature considerably more difficult to do. Maybe doing all that helped Oklahoma City add on population at a faster rate than Dallas since 2000. On the other hand, Ft. Worth has been growing faster than OKC.

You couldn't pay me $1MM to go live in Dallas. It would take at least $10MM or more + a helicopter with a pilot available 24/7. I can't believe folks actually want to live down there, especially places like Denton. Lol

Dallas traffic is a breeze compared to other major American cities.

You couldn't pay me $1MM to go live in Dallas. It would take at least $10MM or more + a helicopter with a pilot available 24/7. I can't believe folks actually want to live down there, especially places like Denton. Lol

Depends on where you're working. Denton is a great town in its own right, but living in Denton and commuting to Dallas sounds like the worst thing in the world.

Depends on where you're working. Denton is a great town in its own right, but living in Denton and commuting to Dallas sounds like the worst thing in the world.
My brother lives in Denton and I asked him one time how he could live there, His response....we never leave Denton and know the back roads. He has a law office there and he only handle cases in Gainesville to Denton.

I really don't agree with what was said here. Conservatives believe in social programs, we just don't put up with wasteful spending, and social programs are an easy channel for inflated budgets or mismanagement of funds. Oklahoma has a money management problem, and this has come up many times in the past where contractors for the state are overpaid, money used for personal expenses. The list goes on and on.

America by and large has gotten into a very dangerous habit of tribalizing political parties and using that as grounds for empty, useless debates that politicize issues such as education, mental health and medicare. All I hear is red this, blue that, right wing, hard left. It's all talk and no action. The problem is - Republican or Democrat - we don't hold our lawmakers accountable. We're too busy attacking the opposite party. It's a symptom of a bigger problem and its evidence of a society in decay.

Until this country wises up and starts exercising even a 10th of the maturity it used to have, then these problems will just continue to quantify. Too many politicians anymore are too absorbed in their careers. Don't think for a second they actually give a crap about the people in their district.

This thread is really about a topic that isn't worth discussion. Comparing OKC growth to Dallas growth... Dallas is an entirely different animal. In the 1980s, when oil went bust, Texas went pro-business. Oklahoma did not. Instead, Oklahoma simply kept raising taxes to do nothing but keep the lights on in state government and did little or nothing to attract new business. Population in Texas continued to grow, Oklahoma as a whole lost population between 1982 and 1989 and struggled throughout the 1990s. Can't change history.

Help me to understand your position better:

It appears you are a conservative and you are opposed to wasteful spending? I will guess you are opposed to waste, fraud and corruption? Can you tell me who you think is in favor of waste, fraud and corruption? And how "they" might be acting in a fashion that is in favor of that?