Also, I'd say that if the committee doesn't include this on in MAPS, then they will lose a TON of support. People will vote NO out of spite of this not being included at this point I believe.

Politically speaking... these people have definitely missed the boat if their ask is a 100 million+.

I'm not discrediting the idea at all but this push should have happened much earlier. They might get thrown a bone or two for some seed money to kickstart it, but there is virtually no way that the city council is going to give them $100 million+

i think if it turns the tide to get more yes votes for the soccer stadium and the highway cap, and the other projects they really want, they will be all for it... there is plenty of money to go around, and securing a yes vote for their projects, 100 million is a drop in the bucket for that

I love the conceptual development around the aquarium as much, if not more than the aquarium. Won't happen in my lifetime and if it does it will be much more suburban-y than this.

Also, I'd say that if the committee doesn't include this on in MAPS, then they will lose a TON of support. People will vote NO out of spite of this not being included at this point I believe.

this is what i think... i think this is the thing that would actually get people to vote for the proposals they want to pass.. and they will have to include it if they want MAPS 4 to go forward

Politically speaking... these people have definitely missed the boat if their ask is a 100 million+.

I'm not discrediting the idea at all but this push should have happened much earlier. They might get thrown a bone or two for some seed money to kickstart it, but there is virtually no way that the city council is going to give them $100 million+

I think this was the best thing they could do once they got excluded from the earlier presentation slots. Wait until the last minute, get a ton of social media support, probably get some coverage on the local news, and then less than a week later the city council is voting? If it isn't included, people will be very angry.

Obviously somebody in either the Chamber of Commerce or the city council didn't want this. If they'd presented it two months ago, that's plenty of time for people to get their attention focused elsewhere and lose interest. Right now the aquarium proposal is hot.

I wish I lived in OKC and not Edmond just to vote for this aquarium. As much as I support transit improvements, this would drive me to support MAPS4 more. If it's not included I'm not sure I'd vote yes if given the opportunity-- so far nothing else proposed excites me that much. But generally I'm a supporter of MAPS so who knows.

I've got some conceptual images from a presentation. Give me some time to find and post them.

Great, thank you so much Pete. BTW, I think this project is just awesome as well! Very excited if it gets built.

Great, thank you so much Pete. BTW, I think this project is just awesome as well! Very excited if it gets built.

Remember, the zoo is behind this and want it to be 'world class'.

So, I'm not too worried that they'll be able to put together some amazing exhibits.

Obviously somebody in either the Chamber of Commerce or the city council didn't want this. If they'd presented it two months ago, that's plenty of time for people to get their attention focused elsewhere and lose interest. Right now the aquarium proposal is hot.

This has to be it. The rest of the proposals are just lame. Palomar? Few know what that is. A new animal shelter? A stadium for a minor league soccer team? A new state fair colloseum? None of those things motivate me to want to pay 1% more sales tax.

This does.

I think it would be in the best interest of the CO-OP owners to tell the City Council that they're willing to DONATE the land for this project, or at the very least sell it for peanuts. This could be just what they need to make future development in that area more viable. They NEED this proposal to be included and to pass.

i think if it turns the tide to get more yes votes for the soccer stadium and the highway cap, and the other projects they really want, they will be all for it... there is plenty of money to go around, and securing a yes vote for their projects, 100 million is a drop in the bucket for that

100 million is not a drop in the bucket. It is more than 10% of the maps budget. Strange that they are making this push now instead of three months ago.

100 million is not a drop in the bucket. It is more than 10% of the maps budget. Strange that they are making this push now instead of three months ago.

I don't think it's strange. I think they're forcing this project onto the ballot. There had to be somebody with power who hated this idea, and that's why they didn't get one of the presentation slots. Once they realized they weren't going to get a fair hearing, they decided to show it to the public at the moment when it would have the most impact. That's a week before the city council is supposed to vote on it.

Show this to the public three months ago? People get excited and then forget about it. Do it now? Much better chance of forcing it in.

Wow! I thought we had seen all of the MAPS proposals and wasn't expecting something this exciting to pop up. I've been generally in favor of the things that have been presented, but nothing stood out as over the top exciting like the park in MAPS 3 for example. This is that over the top exciting proposal to me, I'll be incredibly disappointed if this gets left out. And being able to better activate the canal makes all the more better.

love everything about this. the canal would definitely make sense and have purpose

100 million is not a drop in the bucket. It is more than 10% of the maps budget. Strange that they are making this push now instead of three months ago.

not really strange at all

I don't think it's strange. I think they're forcing this project onto the ballot. There had to be somebody with power who hated this idea, and that's why they didn't get one of the presentation slots. Once they realized they weren't going to get a fair hearing, they decided to show it to the public at the moment when it would have the most impact. That's a week before the city council is supposed to vote on it.

Show this to the public three months ago? People get excited and then forget about it. Do it now? Much better chance of forcing it in.

Agreed. I think its perfect timing.

I don't think it's strange. I think they're forcing this project onto the ballot. There had to be somebody with power who hated this idea, and that's why they didn't get one of the presentation slots. Once they realized they weren't going to get a fair hearing, they decided to show it to the public at the moment when it would have the most impact. That's a week before the city council is supposed to vote on it.

Show this to the public three months ago? People get excited and then forget about it. Do it now? Much better chance of forcing it in.

yep

YES!!! 100% on board with this!!!

Look at the popularity of the Georgia Aquarium in downtown Atlanta. This could be such a game-changer for us! It would do so much for that end of the canal, that end of the city, the visuals from the highway...so much potential!

I've long wanted a great aquarium here, but the thought of having it on the zoo property wasn't something I was particularly excited about. This proposal is simply awesome!

Realizing that this, if on the MAPS slate, wouldn't get built for a number of years, it would be nice if we could have the adventure rail line or at least a bus route/shuttle connecting this attraction with the zoo proper, so folks with an "all access" zoo pass (if such a thing would exist by then) could get between both sites without needing a car since they're staying in one of the downtown hotels...

I don't think it's strange. I think they're forcing this project onto the ballot. There had to be somebody with power who hated this idea, and that's why they didn't get one of the presentation slots. Once they realized they weren't going to get a fair hearing, they decided to show it to the public at the moment when it would have the most impact. That's a week before the city council is supposed to vote on it.

Show this to the public three months ago? People get excited and then forget about it. Do it now? Much better chance of forcing it in.

Having worked on public projects with the city for twenty years, this last-minute push is political ineptitude. The city doesn't move that fast and the projects have already been determined. To change all of the commitments would involve going back to the leaders of each project and informing them how much each project is getting cut to provide the 100 million+ dollar amount.

You guys do realize that the agenda for MAPS comes out tomorrow? To make a sweeping change to the resolution language would probably involve dozens of people that would all have to literally agree to do this today .

Realizing that this, if on the MAPS slate, wouldn't get built for a number of years, it would be nice if we could have the adventure rail line or at least a bus route/shuttle connecting this attraction with the zoo proper, so folks with an "all access" zoo pass (if such a thing would exist by then) could get between both sites without needing a car since they're staying in one of the downtown hotels...

I like that idea.

Am I missing something? All I see in the renderings and video's is a video wall, a canal and a café...where is the actual aquarium....where they are keeping the fish? If this is going to be a world class aquarium, it is going to have to be more than a giant electrical billboard with a canal running next to it. I would like to see rendering of world class displays of marine life.

MAPS is about thinking big! An aquarium without fish is the exact type of innovation that can make OKC stand out!

Especially if they allow for entry on both ends. To be able to get on and off on both ends of the Canal would be great. Since they're already extending it, go ahead and build all the components necessary for entry on this end. Ticket Booth and a round area to turn around in and anchor or whatever its called in this case. An ACTUAL water taxi.

Totally agree. Hope I didn't come off as hating on the water taxi. For what it is, I've seen it usually packed with people when I'm in Bricktown. I just feel like it more of a novelty when it could be be at least somewhat useful if there was a destination to go to/come from. This aquarium would definitely be that.

MAPS is about thinking big! An aquarium without fish is the exact type of innovation that can make OKC stand out!

An aquarium where people are the exhibits.... PEOPLE! :D

It's kind of funny how much more widespread the support and enthusiasm is for this project seems to be than for any other proposed project. If the MAPS projects are already determined, well, they better make changes. The MAPS projects will not only be discussed based on what's included, but now based on what's excluded if the aquarium doesn't make it. A segment of citizens may vote against MAPS if it doesn't include the aquarium. What an unexpected turn.

Having worked on public projects with the city for twenty years, this last-minute push is political ineptitude. The city doesn't move that fast and the projects have already been determined. To change all of the commitments would involve going back to the leaders of each project and informing them how much each project is getting cut to provide the 100 million+ dollar amount.

You guys do realize that the agenda for MAPS comes out tomorrow? To make a sweeping change to the resolution language would probably involve dozens of people that would all have to literally agree to do this today .

Too bad. They cheated the selection process by not giving the Zoo a proper chance to present their proposal.

If Maps fails because this Aquarium was left off, the blood will be on their hands.

An aquarium where people are the exhibits.... PEOPLE! :D

Be the fish you wish to see in the aquarium. - Ghandi

When do we think NewsOK will have it on their website? Who will they give credit to? I realize this was public record (most likely) but Pete did the legwork and got it out there when no one else did.

Totally agree. Hope I didn't come off as hating on the water taxi. For what it is, I've seen it usually packed with people when I'm in Bricktown. I just feel like it more of a novelty when it could be be at least somewhat useful if there was a destination to go to/come from. This aquarium would definitely be that.

There should actually be 2 separate types of water taxis. One for tours, and one for transit.

Big yes from me, both on the aquarium plan and the canal extension. This needs to be on the MAPS4 ballot or the council is screwing up big time.

Wow! Yes Please!!!

Worth budgeting $150 million on the initial project, Zoo could add more with their 1/8 cent sales tax funding ($16-18 million annually). This would be a great core tourist attraction near our convention center complex.

As mentioned on Ideas for MAPS thread #1524, I've identified 10 projects totaling $675 million using the highest estimate so far:

Animal Shelter $40 million, Bus Transit $87.2 million, Chesapeake Arena enhancements $135 million, Diversion Hub $18 million, Family Justice Center (Palomar) $37 million, Freedom Center $25 million, Homeless Housing $40 million, Innovation Link $100 million, Multipurpose Stadium $72 million & State Fair Coliseum $120 million. Some funding for sidewalks & trails are apart of 2017 GoBonds passage. Protected bike lanes will need to be addressed.

Aquarian would be worth its investment; a complementary tourist piece.

I've confirmed council will vote on the MAPS 4 slate on Tuesday.

Won't know the details until the put the agenda out late Friday afternoon. Hopefully they fully list the proposed projects and budgets.

If this is on the ballot then I would feel a lot better about voting yes on a soccer stadium. Putting both of these on the Co-Op site would be fantastic.

Be the fish you wish to see in the aquarium. - Ghandi

Spock tried that and he got thrown out of the exhibit.

I haven't seen this much excitement for a maps project ever.

It is frustrating how many people on social media are completely oblivious to the fact that education and highways are state issues and have nothing to do with MAPS. Seems like any proposal that comes up gets attacked because it isn't addressing those two things, as if a state can't make improvements in multiple areas at the same time.

Too bad. They cheated the selection process by not giving the Zoo a proper chance to present their proposal.

If Maps fails because this Aquarium was left off, the blood will be on their hands.

Maybe. It polled so badly though it was kicked to the curb.

Having worked several campaigns it is best to start early and focus on voter education so they understand what the initiative is. The Gazette was extremely helpful ten years ago as was OKCTALK in educating the public and policymakers about a fairly complicated endeavor (the streetcar). The Aquarium doesn't seem that complicated as a concept but I think a great many people would ask why the Zoo is supporting a location that isn't at the Zoo.

If they were serious about this they should have started meaningfully educating the public months ago. Getting nine people to agree on anything is like herding cats. Getting MAPS to include things like this takes a lot more work then some last-minute surprise.

Not sure if I missed it elsewhere in this thread but Holt keeps tweeting something to the effect of “this won’t be on MAPS 4 but the conversation shouldn’t end here”

It is frustrating how many people on social media are completely oblivious to the fact that education and highways are state issues and have nothing to do with MAPS. Seems like any proposal that comes up gets attacked because it isn't addressing those two things, as if a state can't make improvements in multiple areas at the same time.

Just like when schools build new facilities through voter-passed bonds and everyone gripes about teacher pay.

Our laws literally prohibit using bond money for on-going school expenses.

Many don't understand the concept of different funding sources.

Real question. How world class would a $100-150M aquarium be? I have no idea how much other world class aquariums have cost. As discussed in other threads, if we build an aquarium, we should do it right...does $100M get us there?

What are the chances the Aquarium & stadium could be built on the COOP site? That would be pretty spectacular.

I assume this will be the push. Why extend canal to only one attraction on COOP when you can have two.

I just dont want to see Sooner Investment developing the surrounding area. With two brand new attractions like aquarium and soccer stadium, it needs to be better than big box retail surrounding it. But they do have a former mayor working with them so who knows.

Also, the coop people are going to have to realize they cant ask for the moon for some dirty contaminated site, even if it is close to downtown.

But Im all for this in maps.

Real question. How world class would a $100-150M aquarium be? I have no idea how much other world class aquariums have cost. As discussed in other threads, if we build an aquarium, we should do it right...does $100M get us there?


$125 million

Both the mayor and Urban Pioneer have stated pretty clearly already that there's no feasible way for this to make it onto the MAPS4 project list by tomorrow. Regardless of how or why this is only coming out now, perhaps we need to set our expectations appropriately so it isn't some outrageous scandal when tomorrow the proposed projects look like they were always going to for the past few weeks.

Not sure if I missed it elsewhere in this thread but Holt keeps tweeting something to the effect of “this won’t be on MAPS 4 but the conversation shouldn’t end here”

Interesting. This aquarium thing is becoming very strange.

Could we see some MAPS backlash if this isnt included? Or will people forget about it by the time the vote comes around?

https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1164545584876982274


Thanks for the feedback. The aquarium proposal did not move forward in the process some time ago and will not be a part of MAPS 4, but the Zoo has its own permanent sales tax and the conversation about an aquarium doesn’t have to end here. Thanks again for the feedback!

I understand the logistics of why, but it will be a screw-up to proceed without a central project like this that people are clearly excited over.

David Holt's tweet this morning: "Thanks for the feedback. The aquarium proposal did not move forward in the process some time ago and will not be a part of MAPS 4, but the Zoo has its own permanent sales tax and the conversation about an aquarium doesn’t have to end here. Thanks again for the feedback!"

Yeah, the Mayor is shooting it down completely.

I fully expect the Maps vote to fail now.

At least we get a really cool, uh, minor league stadium?

Not sure if I missed it elsewhere in this thread but Holt keeps tweeting something to the effect of “this won’t be on MAPS 4 but the conversation shouldn’t end here”

At this point, I'm one of those who will vote no on MAPS if it doesn't include an aquarium. The Council or the Chamber or whomever has kept the zoo from being part of the process. If this MAPS doesn't pass, they can try again next year with projects actually worthy of public support.

These slides should answer a lot of questions:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aquarium101.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aquarium102.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aquarium103.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aquarium104.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aquarium105.jpg

You guys are silly. Please vote yes for thew sake of Bike lanes, public transit, sidewalks, trees, support for mental health, etc.. an aquarium is not nearly as important as these things that will actually improve quality of life for all people in meaningful ways.

deleted, after seeing Mayor Holt shoot the idea down and say it won't happen... sad, because this was my yes vote... and now i don't think there is a reason for me to support it.

Interesting. This aquarium thing is becoming very strange.


I find it completely strange that all of sudden this is an issue the day before they publish the agenda. Where was all the outrage months ago? lolz

it's what makes me think they realized the current projects weren't polling well at all... and decided to take this idea that they didn't like, and try to push it last minute to get enough polling support to show it will pass

Who is "they"?

Maybe. It polled so badly though it was kicked to the curb.

Having worked several campaigns it is best to start early and focus on voter education so they understand what the initiative is. The Gazette was extremely helpful ten years ago as was OKCTALK in educating the public and policymakers about a fairly complicated endeavor (the streetcar). The Aquarium doesn't seem that complicated as a concept but I think a great many people would ask why the Zoo is supporting a location that isn't at the Zoo.

If they were serious about this they should have started meaningfully educating the public months ago. Getting nine people to agree on anything is like herding cats. Getting MAPS to include things like this takes a lot more work then some last-minute surprise.

All of these longer explanations seem to miss the point the aquarium seems to be both (a) the project the public wants and (b) the project that may save MAPS 4. Who cares if the process was bad? Technically, the process hasn't started... nothing is decided or final yet. And, the response seems to indicate the public does not care about minute details that the aquarium isn't at the zoo. OKC's political leaders including Holt will have to decide if they are going to be responsive and successful or stubborn and risk losing MAPS 4. While I personally don't feel as passionate about the aquarium idea the public response is overwhelming.

I find it completely strange that all of sudden this an issue the day before they publish the agenda. Where was all the outrage months ago? lolz

the "open process" (that was not really open at all) fully supressed this project a long time ago so it never actually got a fair shake

i suspect because if given a proper presentation by the zoo director would have become a must have on the MAPS 4 list ..

I find it completely strange that all of sudden this an issue the day before they publish the agenda. Where was all the outrage months ago? lolz

the "open process" (that was not really open at all) fully supressed this project a long time ago so it never actually got a fair shake

i suspect because if given a proper presentation by the zoo director would have become a must have on the MAPS 4 list ..

deleted, after seeing Mayor Holt shoot the idea down and say it won't happen... sad, because this was my yes vote... and now i don't think there is a reason for me to support it.

I bet you are correct. And what they are proposing needs to double in size IMO if you want to have a real regional attraction.

Seem like a shell game being played

Here is another perspective. I like the aquarium idea but not as part of the COOP. It is stupid to think we should dump a 150 million dollars subsidy into an area that the developer can’t figure out what to do with it. Also, your crazy to think the renderings beside the aquarium itself would ever come to fruition.

The COOP has failed to realistically develop this site on their own due to unrealistic financial expectations. A public subsidy should not even be part of the discussion. The COOP and lumber yard owners would disproportionately benefit from this investment.

How bout we put it on the Zoo Amp site? Zoo owns the land. Don Hays presentation to council was a joke. The whole thing is a sham to help make the COOP more marketable. You know they will be asking millions for the dirt. Just like they did when the convention center was being considered at the COOP. This is MAPS for millionaires! Joke.