Anybody have an update on this project?

Nope, I haven't seen anything in a while.

Nope, I haven't seen anything in a while.

Darn.

New signs on property FOR SALE so this must be dead

New signs on property FOR SALE so this must be dead

I drove by today and Toby Brown has a sign up that just says "Available". I assume that is for sale, but I didn't see it on his website.

Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.

Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.

Wasn't it proposed well before Alley North was even a thought?

Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.

Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.

Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.

They never actually got handed any tif money.

They never actually got handed any tif money.

Fully aware of that, Rover...

But they had that commitment from the city, which is good enough for any bank. And they still couldnt make it work. Which tells me they never had a chance and that OKC is awarding tif money to too many projects. Look at the handful of other projects that got TIF commitments and have still languished for years. Maybe they're marginal deals and shouldnt be incentivized by the city in the first place. Or, maybe start incentivizing everything everywhere in OKC.

There needs to be timeliness places in projects being awarded TIF. Either start within 1 year of approval (or some other arbitrary time frame) or you lose approval, or since other detriment. Can't let people waste time if city council and planning commission with projects they know will never come to fruition.

Extenuating circumstances are different (like a global pandemic). But right now, that isn't a huge issue. So if you get approved, start work on the project or get out of the way for projects that can start.

I think real estate developments are always a risk. The only difference is the number of zeros. We might be impatient, but I do not hear that TIF awards are harming development in OKC. I wonder if we are solving a problem that doesn't exist?

Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.

Probably realized they could just sell the property for a Pappasitos with a bunch of more surface parking!

There needs to be timeliness places in projects being awarded TIF. Either start within 1 year of approval (or some other arbitrary time frame) or you lose approval, or since other detriment. Can't let people waste time if city council and planning commission with projects they know will never come to fruition.

Extenuating circumstances are different (like a global pandemic). But right now, that isn't a huge issue. So if you get approved, start work on the project or get out of the way for projects that can start.
Financing discussions can take a long time and Tif is just one of the considerations. When they try to get Tif promised they are not always assured of financing. If people would go through the processes of doing a development like this they might have a better appreciation for what developers go through. A general internet board opinion is the least of their worries.

Financing discussions can take a long time and Tif is just one of the considerations. When they try to get Tif promised they are not always assured of financing. If people would go through the processes of doing a development like this they might have a better appreciation for what developers go through. A general internet board opinion is the least of their worries.

Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.

Let the TIF flow.

Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.

Or maybe some things changed.

Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.From what I was told, the primary developer here WAS CoreBank and its owners and investors. I doubt they will be leasing space in Alley North anytime soon.

Pete, is this project officially dead?

Pete, is this project officially dead?

I'd say so since its for sale at $7.25 million.

Easy prediction, the next person to put it under contract/buy it will also be looking for TIF money and most likely even more than what The Hub was asking for.

I'd say so since its for sale at $7.25 million.

Easy prediction, the next person to put it under contract/buy it will also be looking for TIF money and most likely even more than what The Hub was asking for.

Which they will only get if they build whatever they propose, just like the current owners.

It's a really good spot for housing.

Something will eventually happen here.

Which they will only get if they build whatever they propose, just like the current owners.

We all know this.

But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.

We all know this.

But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.

Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.

Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.

As a developer, I agree with Pete's take. A developer will do a "residual land value" calculation after inputting their minimum targeted return metrics into the proforma and then factoring in all potential income sources that flow to Net Operating Income (including property tax reimbursements - aka "pay as you go" TIF agreements). For A+ development sites that professional developers/investors will compete over, I'd say 80-90% of the present value of the TIF package will go to the seller.

Whoever "believes" in the site the most (potential TIF agreement, potential apartment rents, how aggressive they can be on operating costs, etc.) will justify paying the most.

Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.

Hence why there needs to be something done to the process. Sitting on a property, then benefitting because of TIF isn't fair to the taxpayers. But I get it, since forcing development is also not fair.

We all know this.

But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.

$7.25 million which they may not get in the first place since the property in question is only for sale and unless there's a surprise we don't know about has not actually been sold yet.

And on the other hand, if they do get that $7.25 million it means it gets sold to a developer who will have plans that justify the cost so why should I care.

I personally know a couple of the investors on this project. The last I was personally told, probably 6-8 months or so ago, was that they were having issues getting approval to close the alley that runs just to the west of The Garage Loft Apartments between NW 13th and NW 14th.

I was told that one of the adjacent landowners, the Garage Loft or 1420 N Robinson, was protesting the closing of the alley and that The Hub needed that to happen in order to build the proposed apartments on the NW corner of the lot.

That being said, this project was announced pre-pandemic, when building costs were much lower. I'm sure the announcement of Alley North led to them reconsidering the feasibility of this project too.

could it be built with just the midrise tower sans the apartments (or work the apartments in a different way)?

That sucks to hear about this project being dead. I was really looking forward to it it would have completely changed the feel and it had a nice sized building as well.

I personally know a couple of the investors on this project. The last I was personally told, probably 6-8 months or so ago, was that they were having issues getting approval to close the alley that runs just to the west of The Garage Loft Apartments between NW 13th and NW 14th.

I was told that one of the adjacent landowners, the Garage Loft or 1420 N Robinson, was protesting the closing of the alley and that The Hub needed that to happen in order to build the proposed apartments on the NW corner of the lot.

That being said, this project was announced pre-pandemic, when building costs were much lower. I'm sure the announcement of Alley North led to them reconsidering the feasibility of this project too.

I'm betting higher lending cots/interest rates had a part in it as well.