OKC2017
12-24-2024, 11:34 AM
top clubs in europe are completely redeveloping their stadiums to maximize revenues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er8rlOnRulQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er8rlOnRulQ
View Full Version : MAPS 4 Stadium OKC2017 12-24-2024, 11:34 AM top clubs in europe are completely redeveloping their stadiums to maximize revenues https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er8rlOnRulQ Laramie 12-25-2024, 10:39 PM Oklahoma City . . . (702,767) MSA 1,477,926 Louisville . . . . . . . . (622,981) MSA 1,365,557 https://www.gotolouisville.com/imager/assets_simpleviewinc_com/simpleview/image/upload/c_fit,w_800,h_600/crm/louisville/1_666310CD-5056-A348-3A9411F970B78042-66630f805056a34_66631133-5056-a348-3a85970be9c86e57_ae9217944f0738f696c093bccdcb3e55. jpg Lynn Family Stadium, Louisville Seating Capacity, 11,700 - Largest crowd: 14,673 Construction cost: $65 million Opened: July 12, 2020 The two cities are similar in city and MSA population. The fire marshal in Louisville allows standing room in excess of outdoor seating; does Oklahoma City fire marshal allow standing room for outdoor events. Our proposed stadium will seat 600 more (12,300) than the soccer stadium constructed in Louisville. Since most stadium are constructed with north-south stands; will there be an opening to the skyline--viewed west from the multipurpose stadium. Budgeted cost $71 million. OKC2017 12-28-2024, 08:48 PM a major league soccer team is up for sale. for some reason it reminded me of how the thunder wound up in oklahoma city. the team was last valued at $420 million, but since expansion fees into the league are now north of $500 million it is not difficult to imagine the asking price could be significant. i think the thunder cost around $300 million or less back in 2007-2008. anyways, it will be interesting to see if there's anyone interested in buying the team and possibly relocating the franchise. this may be the opportunity potential markets like indianapolis, las vegas, phoenix or san antonio are waiting for. but what if oklahoma city takes the chance as it did when the seattle sonics relocated to become the okc thunder??? https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5992511/2024/12/13/vancouver-whitecaps-sale-process/ mugofbeer 12-28-2024, 09:52 PM I have $7? �� Tyson 12-31-2024, 07:53 AM I have $7? �� I was worried until now Pete 01-03-2025, 02:21 PM Populous has submitted a report to the MAPS 4 committee after evaluating the specific site for the stadium. Although the capacity will be 10,000, the design will include the ability to expand to 20,000+ and full MLS compatibility. HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stadium010325a.jpg HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stadium010325b.jpg HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stadium010325c.jpg HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stadium010325d.jpg Plutonic Panda 01-03-2025, 02:37 PM Fantasy territory here, but that would be really cool to see that rail line accommodate passenger rail one day. A new East-West Amtrak route would be really cool along with commuter rail with Union Station being a stop. Jake 01-03-2025, 03:31 PM Partial canopy is better than no canopy I guess. OKC2017 01-03-2025, 09:39 PM wow, some good news here. the design part lead by populous is very positive. i'm surprised gsb is the local architect; i would have expected adg or fsb to fill in that role. accommodating the initial design to make possible a future phase 3 for MLS standards is a good sign. the $54 million budget is also reasonable and in line with the overall goals set forth by the maps 4 program. the schematic distribution of land at the site could have been more refined and with greater thought put into it, in my opinion. OKC2017 01-03-2025, 09:42 PM I have $7? �� well, that's a start. you gotta begin somewhere. here's an idea someone is already trying, i suppose you could do the same: https://canadiansoccerdaily.com/2024/12/15/vancouver-whitecaps-fan-starts-gofundme-page-to-buy-the-club-to-prevent-vwfc-relocation/ Laramie 01-04-2025, 01:13 AM Real head scratcher. Unfortunate for the Vancouver Whitecaps fan base; the Pacific Northwest is no stranger to seeing big league franchises relocate. Below are the active attendance figures for the top 20 MLS franchises. As much as I would like to see an MLS franchise in OKC; the attendance in Vancouver is impressive: Atlanta United FC - 46,831 (42,500) - Mercedes-Benz Stadium (72,035) NFL Stadium Charlotte FC - 33,383 (38,000) - Bank of America Stadium (74,867) NFL Stadium Seattle Sounders FC - 30,754 - Lumen Field (68,740) - NFL Stadium New England Revolution - 29,262 (20,000) - Gillette Stadium (65,878) NFL Stadium Nashville SC - 28,599 (30,109) - Geodis Park (30,109) LA Galaxy - 26,136 - Dignity Health Sports Park (27,000) Vancouver Whitecaps FC - 26,121 - BC Place (54,500) - CFL Stadium Toronto FC - 25,681 - BMO Field (28,351) FC Cincinnati 25,237 - TQL Stadium (26,000) Orlando City SC - 22,805 - Inter&Co Stadium (25,500) Portland Timbers - 22,485 - Providence Park (25,218) St. Louis City SC - 22,423 - CityPark (CityPark) (22,423) Los Angeles FC - 22,122 - BMO Stadium (22,000) New York City FC 21,765 - Yankee Stadium (30,321) MLB Stadium Chicago Fire FC - 21,328 - Soldier Field (24,955) NFL Stadium Sporting Kansas City - 21,193 - Children's Mercy Park (18,467) Inter Miami CF - 20,979 - Chase Stadium (21,000) Austin FC - 20,738 - Q2 Stadium (20,738) Columbus Crew - 20,646 - Lower.com Field (20,371) Real Salt Lake - 20,295 - America First Field (20,213) My honest opinion, no way can OKC compete with Vancouver if we've looking at a 20,000 seat MLS maximum capacity stadium. What about a future MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium capable of seating 40,000 too 50,000. Our goal for a multipurpose stadium should be comparable to Memphis' Simmons Bank Liberty Stadium with maximum capacity of 58,000. . OKC2017 01-04-2025, 07:26 AM vancouver is a nice city and has lots of good things going for them, so it is surprising their big league teams have serious relocation issues. i remember, for example, the NBA grizzlies relocating to memphis almost 25 years ago. idk but moving to memphis is not necessarily an improvement, in my opinion. according to the attendance numbers shown it is interesting that with such a solid support base, 26K, the ownership group has not been able to secure a stadium of their own. MLS has made it clear the stadium ownership situation is a game changer because of the control the clubs have over all the revenue streams generated on game day and its vitality to make the business model sustainable because otherwise the risk of actually losing money is certain. privately financing a stadium may be a bigger issue than we think and the owners probably just can't afford it. i wonder if local government subsidizing the stadium is a real necessity for teams to thrive and if that doesn't happen much or at all in canada. if you look around all professional sports leagues in the country, local governments subsidize the stadiums/arenas wholly or in part; basically what the maps 4 program is doing with the stadium effort. but going back to the stadium discussion, 10-12 K seating capacity is logical and a potential phase 3 to double it is exactly what the project needs. it may be way too early to think anything beyond 25K seats for soccer is necessary. Dob Hooligan 01-04-2025, 10:41 AM I haven't read anything suggesting the Vancouver ownership is selling out of need. Rather, I see it as cashing out at a good time in the market. The best time to sell is always when you don't have to, and that looks like the case in Vancouver. Franchise values are speculatively high, rather than true revenue driven. And I think the plan of the local ownership is to sell it to a financially sound group who plans to keep it in Vancouver. The team is also critical to the 3 team pocket of Portland, Seattle and Vancouver. If they did move, I think the league would put another team in Vancouver about as quickly as the NFL put one in Cleveland 30 years ago. amocore 01-04-2025, 04:04 PM It is a bit different lately. There is finally a decent soccer league in Canada and a push to get the MLS Canadian teams in the Canadian league instead of the MLS. I think it makes more sense to have a strong Canadian league and the MLS being a US only league. OKC2017 01-04-2025, 06:45 PM I haven't read anything suggesting the Vancouver ownership is selling out of need. Rather, I see it as cashing out at a good time in the market. The best time to sell is always when you don't have to, and that looks like the case in Vancouver. Franchise values are speculatively high, rather than true revenue driven. And I think the plan of the local ownership is to sell it to a financially sound group who plans to keep it in Vancouver. The team is also critical to the 3 team pocket of Portland, Seattle and Vancouver. If they did move, I think the league would put another team in Vancouver about as quickly as the NFL put one in Cleveland 30 years ago. those are all good points. the vancouver ownership group paid somewhere around $30 million to join the league back when it was still affordable. if they sell now at current valuation they will see their investment multiplied 20 fold, which is pretty good because as you mention those valuation are more speculative than real prospect and it seems the league has reached a growth ceiling, at least in the canada market, or a plateau until we see what develops post world cup 2026. in my opinion though, canada is an interesting market but perhaps with greater limitations to grow than more ripe american cities like san antonio, tampa bay, cleveland, las vegas, new orleans, milwaukee, baltimore, buffalo, detroit, phoenix, pittsburgh, memphis, indiana, etc, etc, etc. all big league cities that can easily accomodate a soccer stadium, corporate sponsors and a solid support base. in about seven years we'll see how much real demand and growth for MLS as an entertainment product has increased in value if they are able to secure a more lucrative TV and media rights than the one they currently under. The EPL for example makes about $4 billion per season, MLS is currently making around $250 million per season. so there's still plenty to grow and to prove. jn1780 01-05-2025, 10:25 PM HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stadium010325c.jpg Looks like all the areas that will require extensive site work are going to be covered with parking and those areas will be the very last thing that gets touched. bombermwc 01-06-2025, 07:33 AM Well that'll fill in about as fast as that Core 2 Shore that's still sitting empty 20 years later. Unless the city builds it, it doesn't seem to get developed. Oski 01-06-2025, 09:12 AM Are they still planning to extend the canal into this area? That will be unique and a smart thing to do. warreng88 01-06-2025, 09:49 AM Well that'll fill in about as fast as that Core 2 Shore that's still sitting empty 20 years later. Unless the city builds it, it doesn't seem to get developed. I think the bigger question mark would be the property facing the boulevard and not so much the rest of it. That property is still owned by Fred Mazaheri and we know how he operates his properties... I know Mark Beffort is involved, so that puts a great name behind it. Also, Kanady is doing the Convergence with Tanenbaum so I wouldn't be surprised for him to be mentioned as well. Those are big names, would bring big plans, have deep pockets and can also draw investors. Rover 01-06-2025, 12:18 PM Are they still planning to extend the canal into this area? That will be unique and a smart thing to do. Was there a plan? April in the Plaza 01-06-2025, 01:32 PM Are they still planning to extend the canal into this area? That will be unique and a smart thing to do. pretty sure there's an elevation issue that would make it impractical to extend the canal to this property. would probably need a system of locks to solve for it, which would be a big league expense. Oski 01-06-2025, 02:13 PM @ Rover: I guess there was a plan, or it was only Rumble's plan. 19401 @ April: Another source told there wasn't a grade difference, which one is more accurate? Anyway, Mark Beffort told he might ask for the canal or streetcar to be built into the stadium district. So, at least there is hope! "Extending the canal from where the Land Run Monument is west through the stadium district might be far less expensive than many might suspect because there is no grade change for that path." https://www.aol.com/streeetcar-canal-extension-stadium-district-110318956.html OKC2017 01-06-2025, 07:09 PM the article mentions the okc stadium and its possibility, although extremely unlikely of bringing MLS via relocation from vancouver https://www.transfermarkt.us/major-league-soccer-expansion-potential-cities-top-locations-to-land-teams/view/news/448128 Urbanized 01-06-2025, 09:26 PM pretty sure there's an elevation issue that would make it impractical to extend the canal to this property. would probably need a system of locks to solve for it, which would be a big league expense. This is absolutely NOT correct. Engineering work was done 15+ years ago that proves the case for it. There is however an open drainage ditch that would need to be boxed to make it happen, if the waterway was extended from the canal’s existing southern terminus. The elevation issue involved taking the canal across the BNSF viaduct where the boulevard crosses. That’s not where the canal would go if incorporated into this plan. And no, there is currently not a plan in place for an extension associated with this project, however the developers have publicly discussed being open to the idea. Thunderbolt 01-07-2025, 11:50 AM @ Rover: I guess there was a plan, or it was only Rumble's plan. 19401 [/URL] Maybe Rumble should've designed the streetcar route!! Rover 01-07-2025, 04:21 PM Maybe Rumble should've designed the streetcar route!! I don't know. The streetcar route seems like it was designed by either a bison or a donkey. Let's hope the entertainment area around the stadium is better thought out. Urbanized 01-07-2025, 09:35 PM @ Rover: I guess there was a plan, or it was only Rumble's plan. 19401 @ April: Another source told there wasn't a grade difference, which one is more accurate? …There IS no grade difference that would prevent the canal from being extended into this development. It only requires desire by the developers combined with political will. The photo you shared was taken at an event/news conference celebrating the canal’s 10th anniversary. The drawing was unveiled at that time to show potential directions for expansion, with the intention of sharing these possibilities before already-planned projects on the horizon solidified in such a way that they could impact such an expansion. Projects such as the boulevard, P180 or MAPS3 projects. However by that point it proved to be too late in the game to get any traction in MAPS 3 (or anywhere else). Rumble was simply there as a part of an appearance in support of the anniversary, as were Thunder Girls and multiple VIPs. I personally own the drawing in your picture. It’s stored in my office. It was drawn in 2009 by Johnson & Associates, who originally designed the north section of the existing canal. No offense to anyone else, but I’m as close as you’ll find to a definitive source on the topic of the Bricktown Canal. Laramie 01-07-2025, 10:34 PM What would it cost to extend the canal into the Stadium District? The mile long Bricktown Canal was apart of original 1993 MAPS at a cost of $23 million completed in 1999. Would love to see the canal extended there. Just get the feeling that our Multipurpose Stadium will be expanded beyond 12,300 and meet MLS specifications*. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma: City population: 681,054 Metro area population: 1,441,695 - TV market rank: 41st Other major sports: Oklahoma City Thunder (NBA) - Soccer specific stadium: Planned. Oklahoma City based KOCO News 5 reported in November 2024, that the ownership group had agreed to build a new stadium located just south of Harkins Theater, with constructions scheduled to begin in 2025 and concluded in 2027. The Sports Business Journal reported that the new ownership group plans to build a 12,300-seat stadium and bring back the USL Championship side. The stadium is part of a greater entertainment district that will also include the Bricktown Ballpark and the Paycom Center home of the NBA Oklahoma City Thunder. *The size of the stadium makes immediate MLS expansion unlikely, however. HOT ROD 01-07-2025, 10:43 PM I certainly hope (and expect) for local Vancouver to assemble a new ownership. The team aint going anywhere. As someone who has attended games at BC Place stadium, yes it's larger than the normal crowd draws but that's the case at nearly every MLS site particularly those that aren't soccer specific. Vancovuer was the first MLS team IIRC in the Pac NW and (as mentioned) forms the natural rivalry with Seattle and Portland (all of which are very well attended). There was an original plan to build a soccer specific stadium over the rail yard and another which extended into the bay. Those were rescinded when it was determined BC Place should be better utilized. The same is the case today. Now what should happen is 1) assemble new ownership and 2) upgrade BC Place to benefit both tenants (BC Lions CFL and Vancouver Whitecaps MLS). That's what I expect to happen, OKC (and others) can get an expansion MLS when the time is right. Laramie 01-07-2025, 11:35 PM Despite a small 12,300 seat stadium which OKC could sell out and create a demand for tickets while a 10,000 seat expansion could increase capacity to 22,000 seats. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GcxHEJfWcAABXG6?format=jpg&name=small A larger stadium would make OKC ideal for hosting Major League Soccer and other events. Laramie 01-08-2025, 07:52 AM IMO it's going to cost less to build the stadium to full capacity 20,000+ (Phase III); than to build in stages. Build something comparable to Austin's Q2 (20,500) which cost $260 million to construct in June 2021. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYoWkvdbrlA&t=183s We could build something comparable to Austin's Q2 stadium on a $160 million budget ($100 million) less than what the Austin FC stadium cost to build in Texas now that we have the land. City would need $90 million added to our current $71 million ($160 million) to build a state-of-the-art 22,000 seat Multipurpose Stadium on the old mill site. USL could use the lower bowl probably consist of 12,000 seats until an MLS franchise can be secured. Stadium naming rights could go to our city toward stadium construction. bombermwc 01-08-2025, 07:57 AM That's really one thing that's nice about the design is that it can easily expand without screwing with the whole aesthetic of the place. It wont look like a college stadium that's added on to every 30 years. At 22k, it's a pretty big place for what events would be going on there. I mean realistically, OSSAA could use the thing almost as much as the soccer team would. HS football and Soccer state playoff games and whatnot. And throw a couple of DCI/OBA/OSSAA band events in there and you've got a pretty busy place....which is great. There will absolutely be no shortage of events that could use this place....even at 22k. borchard 01-08-2025, 08:28 AM That's really one thing that's nice about the design is that it can easily expand without screwing with the whole aesthetic of the place. It wont look like a college stadium that's added on to every 30 years. At 22k, it's a pretty big place for what events would be going on there. I mean realistically, OSSAA could use the thing almost as much as the soccer team would. HS football and Soccer state playoff games and whatnot. And throw a couple of DCI/OBA/OSSAA band events in there and you've got a pretty busy place....which is great. There will absolutely be no shortage of events that could use this place....even at 22k. I agree, and I've always thought it should be built initially with at least ~20k. And for the reasons you stated; - HS Football Championships (ALL classes) - HS Soccer championships - Even small college games (SNU vs OBU?) - Bedlam OU vs OSU women's soccer - Possible UFL team - Possible USMNT/USWNT soccer friendlies - Concerts - FCS Football Championship (Its leaving Frisco and may not return). Why could OKC NOT bid on it? Thunderbolt 01-08-2025, 11:19 AM IMO it's going to cost less to build the stadium to full capacity 20,000+ (Phase III); than to build in stages. Build something comparable to Austin's Q2 (20,500) which cost $260 million to construct in June 2021. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYoWkvdbrlA&t=183s We could build something comparable to Austin's Q2 stadium on a $160 million budget ($100 million) less than what the Austin FC stadium cost to build in Texas now that we have the land. City would need $90 million added to our current $71 million ($160 million) to build a state-of-the-art 22,000 seat Multipurpose Stadium on the old mill site. USL could use the lower bowl probably consist of 12,000 seats until an MLS franchise can be secured. Stadium naming rights could go to our city toward stadium construction. This would be really great for downtown. It's a sharp-looking stadium and concept. But where would you get the extra $90 million??? bison34 01-08-2025, 12:36 PM This would be really great for downtown. It's a sharp-looking stadium and concept. But where would you get the extra $90 million??? Would be easier to find and justify if we could guarantee an MLS team. Austin didn't just decide to build that stadium. It was only built with the guarantee of an MLS team. Hence why the new NBA arena here is a tiny bit easier to swallow, it has a tenant. Building without a guaranteed tenant, when there are many other pressing needs, won't go over as well. Laramie 01-08-2025, 01:28 PM This would be really great for downtown. It's a sharp-looking stadium and concept. But where would you get the extra $90 million??? We're getting ready to finance a loan for $900 million for the new DT arena; why not request an additional $90 million to finance the new stadium and $20 million to extend the canal into the Stadium District--could the City council approve those changes and award the contract to Manica Architecture and TVS to design and construct all three projects. That would result in one firm designing all three projects to complement one another. Whether we get a Major League Soccer franchise or not; the stadium will be there for the future. Let's not forget that OKC is on MLS' radar for expansion. Major League Soccer expansion: Potential cities, top locations to land teams https://www.transfermarkt.us/major-league-soccer-expansion-potential-cities-top-locations-to-land-teams/view/news/448128 bison34 01-08-2025, 01:53 PM We're getting ready to finance a loan for $900 million for the new DT arena; why not request an additional $90 million to finance the new stadium and $20 million to extend the canal into the Stadium District--could the City council approve those changes and award the contract to Manica Architecture and TVS to design and construct all three projects. That would result in one firm designing all three projects to complement one another. Whether we get a Major League Soccer franchise or not; the stadium will be there for the future. Let's not forget that OKC is on MLS' radar for expansion. Major League Soccer expansion: Potential cities, top locations to land teams https://www.transfermarkt.us/major-league-soccer-expansion-potential-cities-top-locations-to-land-teams/view/news/448128 I think you have violated about 23 different state or city laws with this lazy approach to doing this. You'd have to go through a whole new vote of the people, most likely, to get an already voter-approved funding mechanism amended. Which would slow down the arena, and everything along with that, leading to a breach of contract in terms of an expected move-in date for the new arena. Robbing Peter to pay Paul never works, and both get in trouble in the end. No city just builds stadiums for the fun of it. Lol. Movement for the sake of motion is a very, very bad way of doing government and business. Laramie 01-08-2025, 02:24 PM ^ Agree^ Now on the 'naming rights' for the stadium, I don't think the USL have the same 'naming rights' revenue going to the team as the NBA does in basketball. City could use 'naming rights' revenue toward the stadium construction. bombermwc 01-09-2025, 07:39 AM And if you want to look at stadiums that failed to "attract" the audience they were building for, look at San Antonio's Alamodome and Kansas City's arena of 20 names. You can spend a lot of money and end up with a fancy place for low tier sports. OKC2017 01-09-2025, 12:11 PM And if you want to look at stadiums that failed to "attract" the audience they were building for, look at San Antonio's Alamodome and Kansas City's arena of 20 names. You can spend a lot of money and end up with a fancy place for low tier sports. that is very true and it reminds me how lucky okc was to bring the sonics in. i remember when ford arena was just a big, empty building without significant activity. there have always been cities that are better positioned to lure an NBA team than okc, think for example kansas city, tampa bay, st. louis, seattle, cincinati, pittsburgh, buffalo, nashville, baltimore, vancouver, quebec, etc. and it just so happened that okc beat them all and now has the thunder. it did help that ford arena was already built and a group of multi millionaires got together and decided to pay the hundreds of millions to buy the franchise and convince corporate sponsors to help out; oh and it also helped that new orleans was under water and couldn't host the hornets and that the sonics were up for sale and ready to relocate. talk about perfect timing and the perfect storm. OKC2017 01-09-2025, 12:21 PM i think that if okc is ever to have a major league soccer team it would probably be via relocation, more or less the same way the thunder were brought over from seattle. right now the expansion fees are too high for a small market city and if MLS does expand in the future it would most likely be to the largest media markets without a team yet, the order of which are phoenix, detroit, tampa bay...etc. so the current stadium proposal is fine and leave open the possibility to build phase 3 of the project if and only if a major league franchise is guaranteed under contract and the private investors who buy the team commit their own financial resources to expand the stadium to MLS standards, i think that's where they can get creative and outsource the financing outside of public funds, think corporate sponsors, club members, venture capital, etc, etc. Pete 01-09-2025, 12:37 PM Due to the past failure of previous American soccer leagues, the MLS is being super conservative. It's really smart and you can see how the league is continuing to grow in popularity and quality of play. But it also means they are going to be very slow to expand. That may change, but no time soon. OKC2017 01-11-2025, 02:22 PM on building sporting venues for private enterprise with public funds... ( in canada ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4sGF_QfvNA Nimble33 02-20-2025, 07:04 AM Good Morning All Was curious if there is any more updates on this project? |