Yep. Best of the big airlines for sure.

Although, for price, my most recent purchase for a HNL trip was much better priced than last time, and my two recent trips to SJC were priced better than usual. Delta seems to be focused on better fares to the west, and keeping the higher fares to the east/southeast, where they control markets via Delta.

Not necessarily a East vs West thing. In response to the poster above , DL has a monopoly on the OKC-MSP route for those that want to fly nonstop, and therefore charges a premium. MSP is an expensive market anyway. There's much more competition to ATL, which forces DL to keep their fares lower to compete.

While I understand “first come first served”, the city made a (typical) boneheaded move by letting the carrier that has the lowest gate utilization block the citizen’s investment.

Sorry can you clarify the last part? What is being blocked?

Booked late tickets to FLL for spring break The cheapest ticket I could find on Delta was over 1000 each. Almost same flight times out of Wichita was just over $500 ticket. I am one of those that I like to fly out of my closest airport (Will Rogers is about 2 miles away) but for $2500 (5 tickets) I will drive.

I have been tracking DL fights out of OKC compared to Wichita and Tulsa and it seems that OKC DL flights are consistently higher than the other two. Does DL have that big of a hold on OKC?

Anyone familiar with Wichita airport as far as easiest reasonable place to park for a week?

I've flown out of Wichita before for the very same reason ($$$). It's an easy airport for security, etc. When I was there (5 yrs ago), they had plenty of parking, but no long term covered parking. They may not have any covered parking at all. They may have added some or there may be 3rd party solutions, but I was fine parking outside for the 4-5 trip we took.

Sorry can you clarify the last part? What is being blocked?

After 10am, their gate utilization is essentially 1 gate. And they will be the exclusive tenant. So the citizens build a $100-million upgrades concourse that only a handful of passengers will use outside of peak hours. Should have gone to southwest or American who would utilize the new gates much heavier and thus give a better experience to more passengers.

After 10am, their gate utilization is essentially 1 gate. And they will be the exclusive tenant. So the citizens build a $100-million upgrades concourse that only a handful of passengers will use outside of peak hours. Should have gone to southwest or American who would utilize the new gates much heavier and thus give a better experience to more passengers.

Hence why I'm thinking there were guarantees. If not, I am sure OKC can get out of their contract.

After 10am, their gate utilization is essentially 1 gate. And they will be the exclusive tenant. So the citizens build a $100-million upgrades concourse that only a handful of passengers will use outside of peak hours. Should have gone to southwest or American who would utilize the new gates much heavier and thus give a better experience to more passengers.

Got it - thanks! Didn't realize DL's utilization was so low after the morning rush.

Got it - thanks! Didn't realize DL's utilization was so low after the morning rush.

Delta’s flight schedule tomorrow indicates a grand total of 10 departures. 5 of which are to ATL. They will be taking the most prime real estate in the concourse and squandering it.

Is there any time for pushback to allow AA or SWA to use them?

Delta’s flight schedule tomorrow indicates a grand total of 10 departures. 5 of which are to ATL. They will be taking the most prime real estate in the concourse and squandering it.Wow, 10 departures total? AA has almost that many just to DFW. And SWA is obviously the largest carrier.

https://youtu.be/tHwKmZnc7l4

Better

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/News/February2019Enplanement.pdf

Really getting sunk by frontier basically pulling out.

Better

https://flyokc.com/sites/default/files/News/February2019Enplanement.pdf

Really getting sunk by frontier basically pulling out.

Why do you think they are not successful here but Allegiant is?

Why do you think they are not successful here but Allegiant is?

Probably a better question for catch but their routes are just weird and no promotion. San Antonio and San Diego both failed. Not much business between the two. Didn’t capture the leisure market quite like they hoped I guess.

Is Frontier only flying to just DEN now?

They are unsuccessful pretty much everywhere. They add routes, and take them away just as quickly. They would have better luck going back to the old frontier model and providing at least daily, if not greater than daily service in markets. Going back to a hub and spoke.

They simply can’t maintain any level of consistent service to siphon passengers away from the real airlines. People try them once and hats it. Spirit used to be this way but have improved vastly.

They are unsuccessful pretty much everywhere. They add routes, and take them away just as quickly. They would have better luck going back to the old frontier model and providing at least daily, if not greater than daily service in markets. Going back to a hub and spoke.

They simply can’t maintain any level of consistent service to siphon passengers away from the real airlines. People try them once and hats it. Spirit used to be this way but have improved vastly.

I think once people get used to flying frontier to Denver to connect, and they establish a brand then they can add these random directs. They never really established a brand here though.

I have no doubt if American or southwest tried a San Antonio direct flight it would do just fine.

I think once people get used to flying frontier to Denver to connect, and they establish a brand then they can add these random directs. They never really established a brand here though.

I have no doubt if American or southwest tried a San Antonio direct flight it would do just fine.
AA to San Antonio would be nice!

I think once people get used to flying frontier to Denver to connect, and they establish a brand then they can add these random directs. They never really established a brand here though.

I have no doubt if American or southwest tried a San Antonio direct flight it would do just fine.

It’s hard to build any sort of connection potential on less than daily flights. Some of their connections require overnights in denver or even ungodly lengths of time during the same day (7+ hours).

It is amateur hour down the street at Frontier HQ.

Flew on a 737 max last night as FAA said they were safe yet half the globe is grounding them. It doesn’t sound too scary until you’re on the plane and the crash safety info card is staring you in the face labeled 737. Given the crashes happened moments after takeoff it makes for a nail biting couple of minutes of pitch, AFTER they decided to take nearly 400 gallons (2,500lbs) of fuel out of the tanks just before flight.

I think people are being a little hysterical about the max. American pilots are the gold standard. There might be something wrong with the max but I also think there’s a reason the crashes happened to 2 new 3rd world country airlines.

They aren’t unsafe, but they are some concerning issues with it. Two hull losses on a fleet that small is extremely alarming.

I won’t board one until we get some more clarity.

Aviation is safe because of redundancy. It’s the Swiss cheese model. I personally feel the way the MCAS system was designed on the MAX and inadequately trained to the pilots, the holes are HUGE. American pilots may be the “gold standard” but aviation is not designed to have Chuck Yeager in every cockpit seat. The system is designed for average pilots. System (mechanical) failures rarely ever have the chance to even make a pilot a hero. Something fails and the redundancy kicks in and the pilot continues to sip his coffee. No one is the wiser. You really don’t want an airplane that requires a gold standard pilot. It helps. But if only the best of the best can fly the airplane, it should not be certified for passenger use. I’m boarding a bus with wings, not a fighter jet.

The MCAS system is flawed and contributed to the loss of 189 souls in October,and the FAA requires Boeing to implement fixes before April. The MCAS system is disabled with autopilot ON, and enabled with autopilot OFF. Think about the implications of a system designed to override the pilot. The system will shut itself off if the pilot trims against the MCAS, but will automatically reactive itself after 5 seconds.

Imagine cruising down the highway at 75 mph and seeing a slowdown ahead and turning cruise control off with your brake pedal (which is a normal memory item for you), only to have the cruise control re-engage after 5 seconds and accelerate back up to your selected speed. You disengage it again and the car slows back down and 5 seconds later it engages and brings you back up to cruise speed. Both hands are likely on the steering wheel now as you try to control the direction of your car as you navigate around smashing into the stopped traffic. On the side of your center console is the cruise control cutoff switch. How long will it take you to reach over and cut it off before it’s too late?

It’s hard to build any sort of connection potential on less than daily flights. Some of their connections require overnights in denver or even ungodly lengths of time during the same day (7+ hours).

It is amateur hour down the street at Frontier HQ.

This is it. I've never flown Frontier. I would but the connections are awful.

Here's an example. Father in law lives in El Paso. The drive is a bear. flights for 4 people are $364 per person with anyone other than frontier out of OKC. But Frontier has flights for $185 per person. That's basically half price. but it's just not even doable. So just pulling one up and it leaves at 830pm and gets to Denver at 9:15pm. Then 14 hours later you fly from Denver to El Paso.

Then the flight back has a 3.5 hour layover (which isn't horrendous)

The other issue is that you can fly out on Friday and back the next Saturday. I don't want to spend 8 days with Father in law. wanting to do a fly out fri back on Monday. so the kiddos can see their grandpa.

looking though and Frontier does have direct flights to MCO. It's about $20 more per person than Allegiant but it flies you into MCO instead of SFB. Also Allegiant only flies that what looks like once a week. Out on Fridays back on Saturdays. At least Frontier has some flights out on Thursdays and back on Sundays.

They aren’t unsafe, but they are some concerning issues with it. Two hull losses on a fleet that small is extremely alarming.

I won’t board one until we get some more clarity.

Aviation is safe because of redundancy. It’s the Swiss cheese model. I personally feel the way the MCAS system was designed on the MAX and inadequately trained to the pilots, the holes are HUGE. American pilots may be the “gold standard” but aviation is not designed to have Chuck Yeager in every cockpit seat. The system is designed for average pilots. System (mechanical) failures rarely ever have the chance to even make a pilot a hero. Something fails and the redundancy kicks in and the pilot continues to sip his coffee. No one is the wiser. You really don’t want an airplane that requires a gold standard pilot. It helps. But if only the best of the best can fly the airplane, it should not be certified for passenger use. I’m boarding a bus with wings, not a fighter jet.

The MCAS system is flawed and contributed to the loss of 189 souls in October,and the FAA requires Boeing to implement fixes before April. The MCAS system is disabled with autopilot ON, and enabled with autopilot OFF. Think about the implications of a system designed to override the pilot. The system will shut itself off if the pilot trims against the MCAS, but will automatically reactive itself after 5 seconds.

Imagine cruising down the highway at 75 mph and seeing a slowdown ahead and turning cruise control off with your brake pedal (which is a normal memory item for you), only to have the cruise control re-engage after 5 seconds and accelerate back up to your selected speed. You disengage it again and the car slows back down and 5 seconds later it engages and brings you back up to cruise speed. Both hands are likely on the steering wheel now as you try to control the direction of your car as you navigate around smashing into the stopped traffic. On the side of your center console is the cruise control cutoff switch. How long will it take you to reach over and cut it off before it’s too late?
That makes lots of sense.

Kinda a non issue now that it’s grounded all over.

I think people are being a little hysterical about the max. American pilots are the gold standard. There might be something wrong with the max but I also think there’s a reason the crashes happened to 2 new 3rd world country airlines.

There is reason for concern with the this aircraft. Stereotyping about other airlines is not accurate in this case concerning Ethiopian Airlines.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/despite-recent-crash-ethiopian-airlines-has-strong-safety-record/

I think people are being a little hysterical about the max. American pilots are the gold standard. There might be something wrong with the max but I also think there’s a reason the crashes happened to 2 new 3rd world country airlines.

What an utterly insulting post. What, so developing countries can't have perfectly safe airlines? What kind of joke is that? Yes Ethiopia might not be as well off as the US, but Ethiopian Airlines is a fantastic airline, widely considered to be the best in Africa. And while Lion Air has a dodgy past, they'd mostly had their act together the past few years. Indonesia is also a rapidly developing country. If you don't know what you're talking about, best to keep quiet. Then again, posts like yours fit in perfectly on airliners.net these days.

What an utterly insulting post. What, so developing countries can't have perfectly safe airlines? What kind of joke is that? Yes Ethiopia might not be as well off as the US, but Ethiopian Airlines is a fantastic airline, widely considered to be the best in Africa. And while Lion Air has a dodgy past, they'd mostly had their act together the past few years. Indonesia is also a rapidly developing country. If you don't know what you're talking about, best to keep quiet. Then again, posts like yours fit in perfectly on airliners.net these days.

There’s a real life economic difference between a 3rd world developing country and the United States. In every aspect of life, from banking, to the human capital available, infrastructure, price of Jet A. It’s not insulating it’s just the facts.

So it’s not surprising the two crashes came from 3rd world countries, not the US, Arab, or Europe airlines. And I didn’t say unsafe, I implied they’re less safe.

And I didn’t say unsafe, I implied they’re less safe.

Which is total BS. I'm sorry but that's what it is. So far there is ZERO indication to indicate that these crashes had anything to do with both airlines being in developing countries. To be honest you sound like you've never set foot in one. There is nothing less safe about Ethiopian Airlines compared to any other major airline around the world. Please stop with the racist nonsense. Are you implying that Ethiopia doesn't have access to Jet A? That they don't train their pilots to international standards? You obviously know nothing about what life in a developing country is like except what you see on faux news. It's easy for you to sit in your bubble and blame a poor African or Asian country - when that had zero basis in reality and quite likely nothing to do with why those two planes crashed.

Haha American pilots are the gold standard? Tell that to the families of AA587 or CO3407 or DL5191. Let me guess - those must have also occurred in third world countries! Yes, US pilots are in general top notch, but they're human too. They're just humans from a rich country. Fully trained pilots from developing countries deserve the same benefit of the doubt.

I saw where there has been a flurry of 737 MAX aircraft landing inTulsa today, heading to the Mx base

Haha American pilots are the gold standard? Tell that to the families of AA587 or CO3407 or DL5191. Let me guess - those must have also occurred in third world countries! Yes, US pilots are in general top notch, but they're human too. They're just humans from a rich country. Fully trained pilots from developing countries deserve the same benefit of the doubt.

That means the training in a 3rd world country (or even a developing country) is the same as here in the US (or other 1st world countries)? If so, then yes. But I doubt they have the access to the same training and expertise that US pilots do.

That means the training in a 3rd world country (or even a developing country) is the same as here in the US (or other 1st world countries)? If so, then yes. But I doubt they have the access to the same training and expertise that US pilots do.

What kind of question is that? I seriously don't even know how to answer that. You guys really think that Ethiopian Airlines and Air India (as an example) are putting pilots behind the controls of a 777 or A350 (or any modern jet!) that aren't qualified? Is that some kind of joke? How do you think airlines such as ET train their crews on flying the latest Airbus and Boeing jets? Does Boeing send some kind of stripped down 3rd world poor country simulator to them to train on? How do you think airlines in developing countries carry out maintenance? Do they not use the same manuals and protocols that Boeing and Airbus do? Or do they have a special poor country manual just for them? You think Boeing and Airbus are just selling hundreds of the newest jets to these airlines in developing countries, then providing zero support on how to actually fly and maintain them? The level of ignorance here is astounding to say the least. But not surprising actually. Not to mention that Ethiopian at least has many foreign pilots from Europe, India, etc. I'm sure European pilots would go fly for happily go fly for Ethiopian even if their safety standards weren't up to par, right?

What kind of question is that? I seriously don't even know how to answer that. You guys really think that Ethiopian Airlines and Air India (as an example) are putting pilots behind the controls of a 777 or A350 (or any modern jet!) that aren't qualified? Is that some kind of joke? How do you think airlines such as ET train their crews on flying the latest Airbus and Boeing jets? Does Boeing send some kind of stripped down 3rd world poor country simulator to them to train on? How do you think airlines in developing countries carry out maintenance? Do they not use the same manuals and protocols that Boeing and Airbus do? Or do they have a special poor country manual just for them? You think Boeing and Airbus are just selling hundreds of the newest jets to these airlines in developing countries, then providing zero support on how to actually fly and maintain them? The level of ignorance here is astounding to say the least. But not surprising actually. Not to mention that Ethiopian at least has many foreign pilots from Europe, India, etc. I'm sure European pilots would go fly for happily go fly for Ethiopian even if their safety standards weren't up to par, right?

And a Harvard degree means as much as a Cameron University degree? Not saying they aren't trained, or that they are bad pilots, but all things are not equal when comparing an AA or Delta pilot to an airline from a developing country, in terms of the quality of education and access to resources. You, nor anyone, will change my mind.

And a Harvard degree means as much as a Cameron University degree? Not saying they aren't trained, or that they are bad pilots, but all things are not equal when comparing an AA or Delta pilot to an airline from a developing country, in terms of the quality of education and access to resources. You, nor anyone, will change my mind.

Obviously not - it's impossible to change a bigot's mind. It astounds me the ignorance that some of you live with. Just because something has the name "American" or "Delta" on it doesn't automatically make it superior to everything else. What the hell does the Harvard vs Cameron comparison have to do with anything? You either know how to fly or you don't. And you're making completely biased and bigoted assumptions by concluding that pilots from developing countries are inherently inferior to those from wealthier countries. You even admit that you know literally nothing about the training that pilots in Ethiopia, India, etc receive, yet here you are automatically assuming that well they're Ethiopian so what do they know. There is literally zero evidence behind that. So if you want to be an ignorant bigot, go right ahead, I'm not stopping you.

I think we can all take a step back for a minute. No reason to get heated. Let’s at least keep this thread civil.

folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.

This has nothing to do with 3rd world countries or airlines, this is a manufacturer and (possible) FAA certification issues; more evidence that less government is NOT always better. The FAA let Boeing self police this new autopilot. ........ Enough said.

folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.

This has nothing to do with 3rd world countries or airlines, this is a manufacturer and (possible) FAA certification issues; more evidence that less government is NOT always better. The FAA let Boeing self police this new autopilot. ........ Enough said.

Yup. It's weird right? If the ET and JT crashes were this easily chalked up to being from third world countries because this would never happen to us in big, bad America, then why is Boeing inviting pilots from AA/UA to test the software changes? It should be a complete non-issue for the US-based pilots, right? Seems to me like the 737 MAX is a fundamentally unstable plane, which is literally the opposite of what you want for a passenger aircraft.

I've heard fighter jets a couple times today

Yup. It's weird right? If the ET and JT crashes were this easily chalked up to being from third world countries because this would never happen to us in big, bad America, then why is Boeing inviting pilots from AA/UA to test the software changes? It should be a complete non-issue for the US-based pilots, right? Seems to me like the 737 MAX is a fundamentally unstable plane, which is literally the opposite of what you want for a passenger aircraft.

You keep taking such a huge offense to that but pilot error and over reliance on autopilot by third world pilots was a big part of it. Straight from a friend of mine that is fairly high up at AA... the pilots union knew about the autopilot glitch but their pilots knew how to easily avoid it due to the fact that US based pilots are better trained and are less reliant on autopilot/better able to handle adversity than foreign pilots. That is fact, not racism as you seem to be hell bent on claiming over and over again. It is harder to get a pilots license in the US, harder to get a commercial pilots license here, and US based airlines require more rigorous additional training than most foreign airlines do, especially those based out of third world countries.

Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

0700 departure OKC-YYZ
2130 arrival YYZ-OKC

Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

0700 departure OKC-YYZ
2130 arrival YYZ-OKC
That's great news

You keep taking such a huge offense to that but pilot error and over reliance on autopilot by third world pilots was a big part of it. Straight from a friend of mine that is fairly high up at AA... the pilots union knew about the autopilot glitch but their pilots knew how to easily avoid it due to the fact that US based pilots are better trained and are less reliant on autopilot/better able to handle adversity than foreign pilots. That is fact, not racism as you seem to be hell bent on claiming over and over again. It is harder to get a pilots license in the US, harder to get a commercial pilots license here, and US based airlines require more rigorous additional training than most foreign airlines do, especially those based out of third world countries.

Hilarious - by that logic, France and South Korea must also be third world countries, right? US based pilots are better? Oh really? What happened to AA587? What happened to CO3407? What happened to DL5191? Must've been third world country pilots, right?

You know literally nothing about the training standards in other countries, yet here you are passing judgment. Are there incompetent pilots abroad? But news flash, there have been many crashes caused by pilot error in the US too. Hard to believe but it's true.

Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

0700 departure OKC-YYZ
2130 arrival YYZ-OKC

April Fool?

If not, this is quite a stunner!

Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

0700 departure OKC-YYZ
2130 arrival YYZ-OKC
if you had posted this ANY OTHER day, I would have believed you. Good one, Catch!

Hilarious - by that logic, France and South Korea must also be third world countries, right? US based pilots are better? Oh really? What happened to AA587? What happened to CO3407? What happened to DL5191? Must've been third world country pilots, right?

You know literally nothing about the training standards in other countries, yet here you are passing judgment. Are there incompetent pilots abroad? But news flash, there have been many crashes caused by pilot error in the US too. Hard to believe but it's true.

Yep I know nothing...

folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.

MCAS has nothing to do with the autopilot. It is a system completely independent of the autopilot. It is designed to detect an abnormally high angle of attack (AOA) from a single AOA sensor - at low airspeed - and then pitch the nose down. Most worldwide flight crews weren’t told about MCAS, much less trained in its use. The two accidents are - so far - being attributed to the failure of the single AOA sensor, so Boeing is reprogramming MCAS to require two AOA sensors working in general agreement. They are also providing training to all crews on the proper function of the system, and what to do if one fails. As pilots we are trained to understand every system on the aircraft, and what to do if it fails. I’ve had several system failures as a pilot, but because I knew the systems and workarounds, I’m still here. These guys were blindsided by a system that was unknown to them, and failed.

I saw an article the other day discussing hours required by the airlines and how the US requires many more hours before flying the big commercial airlines. I can't find that article but here is one similar.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Foreign-Airline-Pilots-US-Flight-Schools-Do-They-Get-Enough-Training-Time-in-Cockpit-230581371.html

Not April Fool’s related:

United trims the second mainline that was loaded this summer for Okc-DEN. I have a feeling this is for backfill coverage of the MAX routes. (Moving airplanes around to absorb the reduction of available frames).

Pete, could we move all the flight safety/737 Max fighting to a politics thread? It's mostly not related to OKC Aviation.

MCAS has nothing to do with the autopilot. It is a system completely independent of the autopilot. It is designed to detect an abnormally high angle of attack (AOA) from a single AOA sensor - at low airspeed - and then pitch the nose down. Most worldwide flight crews weren’t told about MCAS, much less trained in its use. The two accidents are - so far - being attributed to the failure of the single AOA sensor, so Boeing is reprogramming MCAS to require two AOA sensors working in general agreement. They are also providing training to all crews on the proper function of the system, and what to do if one fails. As pilots we are trained to understand every system on the aircraft, and what to do if it fails. I’ve had several system failures as a pilot, but because I knew the systems and workarounds, I’m still here. These guys were blindsided by a system that was unknown to them, and failed.

It wasn't even in the manual at the time of the Lion Air crash. Instead of just chalking it up to "well it's Indonesia", I wish posters would bother to spend one nanosecond actually learning about what may have happened, and that maybe it's not quite as simple as "well it's a poor country and not America so it's their fault and would never happen to us." But that's the political climate we're in these days, no surprise there.

I saw an article the other day discussing hours required by the airlines and how the US requires many more hours before flying the big commercial airlines. I can't find that article but here is one similar.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Foreign-Airline-Pilots-US-Flight-Schools-Do-They-Get-Enough-Training-Time-in-Cockpit-230581371.html

While that may be true, the number of hours doesn't tell the whole story. Someone trained to fly in the military may well be much more qualified after 300 hours than a flight instructor that's spent 2000 flying Cessnas. I'd argue that it's much more challenging on a day to day basis to fly in India, Indonesia, or Ethiopia for a number of reasons. A pilot that can fly safely there can probably fly safely anywhere.

Whether the pilot has 30,000 hours flying widebodies for an American legacy carrier or 500 hours flying Cessna Caravans in east Africa, if an unknown system takes control of the aircraft, there isn't much that can be done. You're in a deathmatch with a machine.

While that may be true, the number of hours doesn't tell the whole story. Someone trained to fly in the military may well be much more qualified after 300 hours than a flight instructor that's spent 2000 flying Cessnas. I'd argue that it's much more challenging on a day to day basis to fly in India, Indonesia, or Ethiopia for a number of reasons. A pilot that can fly safely there can probably fly safely anywhere.

Did you read the article? It said that in many cases, when Asian airlines contact US based flight schools about training newly hired pilots, their trip from their country of origin to the US is THEIR FIRST TIME IN AN AIRPLANE. In most cases we’re not talking about military pilots moving into the private sector, we’re talking about people who have never been on a plane before learning to fly large commercial planes. Many of these people come from places where they can’t afford general avaiation or where it is basically non-existent so if they didn’t have military experience, which again isn’t the type of person the article is talking about, these pilots first time on a plane was on the way to learn how to fly one. Pilots in the US generally need 1500 hours or more to qualify to fly commercial planes, and I’m pretty sure military flight time does count toward that.

I don’t know why everything has to be turned into a bigotry issue. It’s common knowledge that US based pilots generally are better trained and have more experience than pilots abroad, especially in Asia and Africa. That isn’t being a racist or a bigot, that is stating fact. Hell, we went through almost a decade without a flight related death in the US until the southwest window issue last year. I looked into this deal quite a bit before commenting on it and Boeing definitely is at fault to a point, but the bottom line is that better trained pilots could’ve handled the situation better. Whether that was a failure of the airlines discussing MCAS with their pilots or lack of R&D on their part or it was Boeing’s fault for not discussing the new system with their foreign purchasers will be determined. US based pilots were aware of the issue and how to handle it and unfortunately, pilots in at least India and Ethiopia were not.

Pete, could we move all the flight safety/737 Max fighting to a politics thread? It's mostly not related to OKC Aviation.

A new thread in this Transpotation forum would be more appropriate. Politics forum is no more appropriate than Restaurants and Bars.

Sorry to post about this again in this thread, but it looks like the Ethiopian pilots were trained correctly and followed the proper procedures.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ethiopian-airlines-boeing-software-emergency_n_5ca49822e4b0ed0d780f0c3c

"Boeing anti-stall software on a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet re-engaged as many as four times after the crew initially turned it off due to suspect data from an airflow sensor, two people familiar with the matter said.

It was not immediately clear whether the crew had chosen to re-deploy the system, which pushes the nose of the Boeing 737 MAX downwards, but one person with knowledge of the matter said investigators were studying the possibility that the software had kicked in again without human intervention.

...

The investigation has now turned toward how MCAS was initially disabled by pilots following an emergency checklist procedure but then appeared to repeatedly start working again before the jet plunged to the ground, the people said.

A directive issued after the Indonesian crash instructed pilots to use cut-out switches to disengage the system in the event of problems and leave it switched off.

Doing so does not shut down the MCAS system completely but severs an electrical link between the software and aircraft systems, a person familiar with the technology said.

Investigators are studying whether there are any conditions under which MCAS could re-activate itself automatically, without the pilots reversing the cut-out maneuver. Boeing is in the midst of upgrading the software while adding extra training."

Sorry to post about this again in this thread, but it looks like the Ethiopian pilots were trained correctly and followed the proper procedures.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ethiopian-airlines-boeing-software-emergency_n_5ca49822e4b0ed0d780f0c3c

"Boeing anti-stall software on a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet re-engaged as many as four times after the crew initially turned it off due to suspect data from an airflow sensor, two people familiar with the matter said.

It was not immediately clear whether the crew had chosen to re-deploy the system, which pushes the nose of the Boeing 737 MAX downwards, but one person with knowledge of the matter said investigators were studying the possibility that the software had kicked in again without human intervention.

...

The investigation has now turned toward how MCAS was initially disabled by pilots following an emergency checklist procedure but then appeared to repeatedly start working again before the jet plunged to the ground, the people said.

A directive issued after the Indonesian crash instructed pilots to use cut-out switches to disengage the system in the event of problems and leave it switched off.

Doing so does not shut down the MCAS system completely but severs an electrical link between the software and aircraft systems, a person familiar with the technology said.

Investigators are studying whether there are any conditions under which MCAS could re-activate itself automatically, without the pilots reversing the cut-out maneuver. Boeing is in the midst of upgrading the software while adding extra training."

Boom. Boeing has some 'splainin to do. This is assuming ET is telling the truth... which it seems they may not have been 100% forthcoming about their 2010 crash near Beirut ... but their Doro Wot is so damn good they get the benefit of the doubt from me. For now.

Yeah, I think someone upthread said it best - it's inherently an unstable plane that they used a bunch of software/etc. to fix, which to my mind is unacceptable. They apparently needed to get something out fast to compete with Airbus, and didn't want to take the time to (re)design a new plane, they just "fixed" the old one.

One report said that the physical force required by a pilot to override MCAS is almost beyond human ability. Why would you design such a system!?

The prelim is out. It makes for very grim reading. http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20435/0/Preliminary+Report+B737-800MAX+%2C%28ET-AVJ%29.pdf/4c65422d-5e4f-4689-9c58-d7af1ee17f3e

One report said that the physical force required by a pilot to override MCAS is almost beyond human ability. Why would you design such a system!?

Articles mentioned that the pilots may have had to turn the MCAS back on to get more assist to actually get control, yeah, it's insanely stupid and a result of deregulation (letting Boeing sign off on its own inspections/etc.) and race to beat Airbus. This is what you get when you do things cheap and let companies do their own thing (literally), disgusting that this even happened (twice), and has been an issue other times, since it was avoidable. But profit....

This thread, man.