lost a floor as well. ...

OCURA update:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard081523a.jpg
No I guess it doesnt seem as big as I remember

A downgrade is the only thing that would make sense. The various costs of money, materials and labor have increased exponentially since the initial proposal was received. Cost cutting (combined with incentives) is the only path forward.

Material costs spiked but have been coming down over the last year. However, the amount of public incentive investment on this project has continued to grow. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to pump the brakes a bit on all the sunny PR.

Sacrificing retail space for living is a pretty good trade, a win in my book. It means there will be many more residents living downtown. Density's going up fast these days, and it doesn't serve much purpose building more retail when there isn't enough people living in the downtown area itself. I know it's stupid to hope that the units would be affordable, especially considering proximity to the park, the Omni, Paycom Center, and the Myriad, but maybe they can sell units for a reasonable price tag.

Agree.

Material costs spiked but have been coming down over the last year. However, the amount of public incentive investment on this project has continued to grow. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to pump the brakes a bit on all the sunny PR.

I'm not sure where you get the information about costs coming down. Most industry sources indicate increased construciton costs of 5-7% in 2023. This is on top of large increases the last 2-3 years.

I have a number of lead services for construction projects all across the US and I don't see estimates being lowered anywhere.

I'm not sure where you get the information about costs coming down. Most industry sources indicate increased construciton costs of 5-7% in 2023. This is on top of large increases the last 2-3 years.

I have read in multiple places that both lumber and steel prices have fallen from their pandemic heights. I trust you have access to good information because of your industry affiliation, so I'm not questioning your sources.

Regardless, most construction estimates should have material price increases factored in. That's how all of the MAPS projects are projected, because we are in a growing national economy in a booming city and stuff tends to cost more over time.

AND: OKC taypayers have already provided more incentive money to this developer, twice, to account for this.

I have read in multiple places that both lumber and steel prices have fallen from their pandemic heights. I trust you have access to good information because of your industry affiliation, so I'm not questioning your sources.

Regardless, most construction estimates should have material price increases factored in. That's how all of the MAPS projects are projected, because we are in a growing national economy in a booming city and stuff tends to cost more over time.

AND: OKC taypayers have already provided more incentive money to this developer, twice, to account for this.

I know this is anectdotal and a small sample size, but I put off a couple of construction projects on my home for the last couple of years, and now the quotes are coming in almost double.

I think this is concrete and steel with metal studs in non-load bearing walls, and not stick built. And, it isn't compared to the absolute high in spots, but what it was when initially bid and inflation expectations at that time. Surely you have to admit there have been extraordianary conditions the last few years. Remember, it isn't just the cost of materials, but the cost of money is a HUGE factor.

And MAPS also experiences contrafactors like what inflation and population growth does to tax collections.

Just curious, are you saying the % of public support for this is increasing, or just the $ amount? What is it adjusted for inflation?

I think this is concrete and steel with metal studs in non-load bearing walls, and not stick built.

Surely you have to admit there have been extraordianary conditions the last few years. And MAPS also figures in contrafactors like what inflation does to tax collections.

Absolutely. And, I'm not trying to argue. All developers have had to grapple with the same economic conditions, and cost increases, such as the developers of OAK, who received no public subsidy.

I'll be the first to admit I've been a bit disappointed by this project, mostly due to the way it was sold during the competitive selection process. The rents that were stated to the Council. The amenities, such as the day care, that were later scrapped. And, honestly I'm not crazy about the look of it but I'm always a fan of more density in the core and I'm not moving there so that doesn't matter what I think in that regard.

I'm excited that this appears to be moving forward and that there will be additional units. That is good. Hopefully there are ultimately a few reasonably affordable studio units for the workforce in the area and OKC's younger population.

I know this is anectdotal and a small sample size, but I put off a couple of construction projects on my home for the last couple of years, and now the quotes are coming in almost double.

I think this is concrete and steel with metal studs in non-load bearing walls, and not stick built. And, it isn't compared to the absolute high in spots, but what it was when initially bid and inflation expectations at that time. Surely you have to admit there have been extraordianary conditions the last few years. Remember, it isn't just the cost of materials, but the cost of money is a HUGE factor.

And MAPS also experiences contrafactors like what inflation and population growth does to tax collections.

Just curious, are you saying the % of public support for this is increasing, or just the $ amount? What is it adjusted for inflation?

Steel prices from the foundry are slightly down, and labor prices are up.

Labor needs to go up, that's a cost I'm pretty sure many wont mind. Now in the eyes of the developers, I'm sure they have every intention to disagree.

Steel prices from the foundry are slightly down, and labor prices are up.

Down from the high, not down from three or four years ago years ago

Down from the high, not down from three or four years ago years ago

What products/services are the prices down to what they were 4 years ago? If that is the reason for the delay it will not be completed for quite some time.

What products/services are the prices down to what they were 4 years ago? If that is the reason for the delay it will not be completed for quite some time.

Not sure what context you are trying to concoct. I was answering the post that I quoted in my response. The implication was that steel was down. The index is still up almost 200% from 2021.

And what's more, large unplanned and unanticipated increases in materials, labor and cost of money do in fact delay or kill projects all the time. In the least they lead to "value engineering". Prior to the project being complete, adjustments are done all the time as situations change.

My guess would be that this project was conceived with the arena being next door and the project will likely be on hold until a new arena site is formally chosen. And based on the new location this project may well be reworked.

My guess would be that this project was conceived with the arena being next door and the project will likely be on hold until a new arena site is formally chosen. And based on the new location this project may well be reworked.

this projects delay has nothing to do with arena location

Whatever the reason, get ready for a second decade invasion of the cranes--wanted to list the big ones:


Bricktown Dream Hotel - $736 million
Diversion Hub - $18.9 million (included in MAPS*)
Multipurpose Stadium - $41 million (included in MAPS*)
*MAPS 4 - $978 million
Oklahoma City Public Schools Bonds $955 million

New arena - $1.036 billion ($70 million included in MAPS - TBD if approved)

Above represents good growth worth the agony of pain.

Just checking in to see if there's any news of them starting next year. At least a scheduled ground-breaking ceremony.

The Boardwalk at Bricktown development a couple blocks east of this development, makes this look like crumbs. I don't even think this is still a thing, I hope so.

This still needs to be a thing. The Omni and the parking garage both look so out of place at present without it.

The Boardwalk at Bricktown development a couple blocks east of this development, makes this look like crumbs. I don't even think this is still a thing, I hope so.

They are totally different types of developments and different target markets. This isn't crumbs, but valuable infill. I doubt either is influenced by the other as to whether they get build.

Just checking in to see if there's any news of them starting next year. At least a scheduled ground-breaking ceremony.

Maybe we will hear something soon since they know Paycom for sure is going to eventually be gone now. There are still some unknowns about what will happen at Paycom site. That would be a long time to wait though.

Maybe we will hear something soon since they know Paycom for sure is going to eventually be gone now. There are still some unknowns about what will happen at Paycom site. That would be a long time to wait though.

Huh, never even thought of that. I wonder if they're really going to wait on Paycom getting demo'd before relocating the development in it's shadow across the street. It would give them the room to expand commercial space, and more of a footprint to go vertical without infringing on the height restriction imposed by the Omni deal. They already passed on the initial TIF funds, I believe that could be used to pay for the grant to acquire the land for development, and then there's also the garage sitting underneath the arena that can be salvaged for other future developments. This could easily go from being a seven-story infill to a 10-12 floor plan with a parking garage foundation underneath. It would further bring more living space into the CBD, which is never a bad thing to have.

I am hoping Omni will take over this property and add another tower in its place.

Starting to wonder if Boardwalk at Bricktown will be completed before this.

Paycom probably won’t be demolished until at least 10 years after the new arena is built so I doubt there waiting to see what happens with the Paycom site

Paycom probably won’t be demolished until at least 10 years after the new arena is built so I doubt there waiting to see what happens with the Paycom site

yeah I think it will be fairly immediate. The city isn’t going to sit and take an operating loss on a mostly unused arena that sits on valuable land right next to its brand new $1 Billion arena. Paycom will most likely be knocked down and the land RFP’d within a year or two.

I am hoping Omni will take over this property and add another tower in its place.

Thank you, finally someone with some sense. I said this years ago.

yeah I think it will be fairly immediate. The city isn’t going to sit and take an operating loss on a mostly unused arena that sits on valuable land right next to its brand new $1 Billion arena. Paycom will most likely be knocked down and the land RFP’d within a year or two.

Yeah, it won't sit for 10 years. The city will have a plan in place prior to the new Arena opening, even if its just an empty field for a few years. Only reason convention center wasn't demolished was because of Prairie Surf opportunity.

How about turning it into a small open air football stadium? For high school games, a bowl game

Is there adequate space to locate the MAPS 4 Multipurpose Stadium there? Apologies if this has already been addressed.

The lot size for this development is no bigger than the Omni Hotel property. Not even close to enough room for any kind of sports anything other than a skating rink.

Is there adequate space to locate the MAPS 4 Multipurpose Stadium there? Apologies if this has already been addressed.

If you’re talking about the Paycom site then I believe it could fit a stadium there even without touching the Courtyard or parking garage.

If you’re talking about the Paycom site then I believe it could fit a stadium there even without touching the Courtyard or parking garage.

the kc soccer stadium would not fit on that site

Back on topic. Any news on this? A vacant lot isn't what I thought we'd see for going on 2 or 3 years now. Just thought we'd see some progress.

Back on topic. Any news on this? A vacant lot isn't what I thought we'd see for going on 2 or 3 years now. Just thought we'd see some progress.

Because it’s a dead project

Because it’s a dead project

Not dead just on hold pending interest rate cuts / TIF

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68&pp=ygUPSW0gbm90IGRlYWQgeWV0

I'm not dead yet.