Where does one check the occupancy rates for hotels in the metro? Is there like a website?

Well I would like to clarify - that type of occupancy rate isn't terrible for a convention sized hotel. A normal sized hotel, yeah. That's why convention hotels are almost always subsidized or they couldn't maintain the amount of staffing, etc. needed to be able to scale up quickly for large events. Hotel data is difficult to get, I get info from subscriber data sources used by hotel developers. Omni could likely financially build and operate a hotel in OKC around 200-300, but that doesn't allow you to book big events so cities have to pay them to build the rooms they wouldn't need to operate a legitimate profitable business in that location. A 200-300 room Omni in OKC in that location would probably have good REVPAR and Occupancy, but not a 600 room one - certainly not a 800 + room if it was expanded. The city would likely have to pay 100% of the costs to do that until the market gets bigger or tourism gets substantially bigger in the market.

Only in places like Austin, Nashville, etc. or really large cities like NYC, Miami, etc. can these types of hotels fill up enough on non-convention weekends and maintain a profitable operating margin that they don't need a ton of city incentives to build one. Even in Austin sometimes the Hilton, Fairmount are well below 50% occupancy but they have dozens of weekends too like F1, Austin City Limits, etc. that they can charge $1,000+ a room a night and it evens out less busy weekends/weekdays.

Give me 3-5 more renaissance size hotels or residential buildings 10 or so floors would go a LONG way towards building the downtown most people are wanting. With the Dream project, Boulevard Place and others in West downtown brings a lot more people frequently downtown. I agree, giving Omni another 100-300 million plus to expand doesn't get OKC to what is truly needed downtown and that is more residential.

Rose Rock is also actively building single family rental communities in OKC and Tulsa.

I know the Tulsa project also requires a TIF commitment so it probably won’t start this year.

Rose Rock is also actively building single family rental communities in OKC and Tulsa.

I know the Tulsa project also requires a TIF commitment so it probably won’t start this year.

They are, under the brand called Trulo. So they have a lot of projects going on for a pretty small staff. I'm surprised they haven't hired a few development managers. Their Alley's End project should be starting soon too or they'll lose the tax credit award on it or have to apply for extensions - not sure what people expect.

Since the TIF in that area of Downtown Tulsa is already active they don't have to wait on anything. They just need to finish the construction docs and permits approved which will probably take until early next year. You might start seeing dirt work before that and start crane assembly early in the year. My guess is they'll need one given how small the site is.

Western Supply I think is already moving dirt and they just got their TIF allocation approved the meeting prior to this one (or it might have been in the same one as this one I can't remember).

Has Omni indicated they want to expand? My big questions are 1) if they'd want to, given potential new downtown hotels on the horizon that could saturate the market, and 2) if so, what time scale to expansion? Granted, someone somewhere probably has done the economic analysis that would be able to give an indication--I am not going to pretend I have any clue to that. But my worry that if Omni has determined, based on population trajectories, tourism growth, etc., that it isn't viable for, say, another 10 years to have an expansion, that we would end up in the same situation of an undeveloped lot sitting there. Granted, they could go the route of making it a parking lot in the time being, which would then mitigate the field of weeds.

def not saturating the hotel market. OKC would need 10,000 hotel rooms and even then wouldn't be saturated, we just start getting bigger, national/international events. ... (we currently have what, 4500 downtown rooms?). OKC could definitely use some national flags - we don't have a full service marriott, hyatt, holiday inn, or their business derivatives other than Renaissance. OKC could def use some love from those full-service brands; to compete with other big cities.

It's ok, I didn't take what you said with more than a grain of salt either if you think it's a good idea to take a potential project away from a reputable developer with Tim Strange as the chairman of the company on the fanciful dream of expanding a convention center hotel that is already the perfect size for the market. A dream that would have to be 100% paid for by taxpayers in order to do so. That would be just awesome to see I bet. Would really move OKC forward into future by bankrupting the city for dumb projects.

The people behind this project may be reputable, but their project management on this has been a massive disappointment—to be charitable.

def not saturating the hotel market. OKC would need 10,000 hotel rooms and even then wouldn't be saturated, we just start getting bigger, national/international events. ... (we currently have what, 4500 downtown rooms?). OKC could definitely use some national flags - we don't have a full service marriott, hyatt, holiday inn, or their business derivatives other than Renaissance. OKC could def use some love from those full-service brands; to compete with other big cities.

Haha uh what? 10,000 rooms... yeah no. Downtown Austin has about 12,000 hotels and about 10x the demand for hotel rooms downtown. OKC needs maybe another 1,000-2,000 rooms downtown in the next 3-5 years maximum.

The people behind this project may be reputable, but their project management on this has been a massive disappointment—to be charitable.

It's easy to critic from the outside looking in, the development process isn't easy nor is it fast on bigger projects like this. Especially when you're looking at any type of incentives and building a product type that doesn't really existing in OKC yet (concrete mid-rise/high-rise multifamily). Getting a bank to buy into that is not as easy as people seem to think it is. I don't think people realize how long developers work in a quite phase in normal operations before they announce projects. They don't get that luxury when it is a project on public land. It isn't uncommon for a project like this to take 2-3 years to get off the ground in a market like Dallas, let alone in OKC. People need to have more realistic expectations on here. Rent levels are just now at a tipping point where concrete construction is legitimately feasible in both Tulsa and OKC.

Haha uh what? 10,000 rooms... yeah no. Downtown Austin has about 12,000 hotels and about 10x the demand for hotel rooms downtown. OKC needs maybe another 1,000-2,000 rooms downtown in the next 3-5 years maximum.

and that should be OKC's goal if it wants to compete with said city. Im not saying OKC should build 5000 rooms in one or even 5 years, I'm saying it should be the goal for OKC to compete years later. OKC would 'qualify' for big events if we have the room space, just look at where we are today and the bookings we're able to get - they're contingent on room space availability and OKC shouldn't become complacent.

I agree with you that we shouldn't focus on only one convention hotel, I like the idea of multiple flags around 300-400 filling the downtown landscape. We can build another flagship 800+ room convention hotel a decade later once the cc is expanded to the south,

It's easy to critic from the outside looking in, the development process isn't easy nor is it fast on bigger projects like this. Especially when you're looking at any type of incentives and building a product type that doesn't really existing in OKC yet (concrete mid-rise/high-rise multifamily). Getting a bank to buy into that is not as easy as people seem to think it is. I don't think people realize how long developers work in a quite phase in normal operations before they announce projects. They don't get that luxury when it is a project on public land. It isn't uncommon for a project like this to take 2-3 years to get off the ground in a market like Dallas, let alone in OKC. People need to have more realistic expectations on here. Rent levels are just now at a tipping point where concrete construction is legitimately feasible in both Tulsa and OKC.

Well said. Most people who aren’t in the business don’t understand.

There is a difference between the Rose Rock developers dragging their feet, and just flat out not having the money. We have seen too many times where developers bid, with grand expectations and renderings, and then nothing gets done. Larger projects like OKANA, The Citizen, and even Convergence were announced after this project, and yet those are now going vertical with steel coming out of the ground. If any development project that can get financed easier its housing projects. Multi-family real estate construction in OKC is at an all-time high, with some of the lower construction costs and lower competitive rental rates. Not too mention Rose Rock is also behind Alley's End which has yet to turn dirt either. So I don't buy that this development process SHOULD take this long. No, I am not developer or in the construction business. But if it walks and talks a like a duck, its a duck.

There is a difference between the Rose Rock developers dragging their feet, and just flat out not having the money. We have seen too many times where developers bid, with grand expectations and renderings, and then nothing gets done. Larger projects like OKANA, The Citizen, and even Convergence were announced after this project, and yet those are now going vertical with steel coming out of the ground. If any development project that can get financed easier its housing projects. Multi-family real estate construction in OKC is at an all-time high, with some of the lower construction costs and lower competitive rental rates. Not too mention Rose Rock is also behind Alley's End which has yet to turn dirt either. So I don't buy that this development process SHOULD take this long. No, I am not developer or in the construction business. But if it walks and talks a like a duck, its a duck.

Tim Strange and his Rose Rock partners are well known and respected in the OKC commercial real estate business. I believe that is why we don't see any grumblings in media or from city government. They understand this is a very complex project that involves multiple levels of city, county, state and federal governmental agencies. Although there is a possible big payout at the end, it is not fast, easy or cheap. Most developers stay away from this type deal.

It's ok, I didn't take what you said with more than a grain of salt either if you think it's a good idea to take a potential project away from a reputable developer with Tim Strange as the chairman of the company on the fanciful dream of expanding a convention center hotel that is already the perfect size for the market. A dream that would have to be 100% paid for by taxpayers in order to do so. That would be just awesome to see I bet. Would really move OKC forward into future by bankrupting the city for dumb projects.

Agree here. I know the rose rock guys fairly well and actually have lived in one of their buildings in Tulsa for three years. The two historic apartment conversion projects they’ve completed and other that they purchased/renovated in downtown Tulsa are top notch. It may be taking awhile but it is a very solid development group and one of the best apartment management groups I’ve ever leased with. Everyone chill out, it will get built lol. Regardless…no way in hell that the Omni should be expanded. I’m not sure why or how anyone thinks that makes sense right now.

With you only having 53 comments and just joined a few months ago. I am taking you don't know much about OKCTALK, and my rep on here. So I am going to take anything you say with a grain a salt. But it's ok, it really is, nothing personal, this is just a forum. I stand by what I say. Omni is great, and bustling, not sure where you get your facts from, you must live in a tent on the lake.

Just because someone is new it doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about, and just because someone is old it doesn't mean that they do.

There is a difference between the Rose Rock developers dragging their feet, and just flat out not having the money. We have seen too many times where developers bid, with grand expectations and renderings, and then nothing gets done. Larger projects like OKANA, The Citizen, and even Convergence were announced after this project, and yet those are now going vertical with steel coming out of the ground. If any development project that can get financed easier its housing projects. Multi-family real estate construction in OKC is at an all-time high, with some of the lower construction costs and lower competitive rental rates. Not too mention Rose Rock is also behind Alley's End which has yet to turn dirt either. So I don't buy that this development process SHOULD take this long. No, I am not developer or in the construction business. But if it walks and talks a like a duck, its a duck.

But first, you have to know what a duck is.

If you knew Tim Strange, you wouldn't bet against him. He is ethical, smart, hard working and thorough. Doesn't ensure this project 100% gets done, but it isn't because anything isn't being done to make it happen. He has a lot of trust built up in this community.

i think G Walker hit on an interesting point that is only amplified by many on here in posts on this thread - why isn't the media seeking 'feedback' from Rose Rock on these developments? If it is truly because I dont know Tim Strange 'so I shouldn't bet against him' (no offense Rover :)), then why isn't the media seeking those answers to the delays instead of a few of us on this forum?

Not saying that it wont happen or not, but there does appear to be validity to G Walker's argument. We've seen many ducks not realized in this city where announcements get delayed then all of sudden "disappear"; without knowing Tim nor having lived in Tulsa where he is bullish, nor having any feedback or investative journalism on this issue so far, at all - am I right not to conclude that BP is starting to appear to be a duck?

i think G Walker hit on an interesting point that is only amplified by many on here in posts on this thread - why isn't the media seeking 'feedback' from Rose Rock on these developments? If it is truly because I dont know Tim Strange 'so I shouldn't bet against him' (no offense Rover :)), then why isn't the media seeking those answers to the delays instead of a few of us on this forum?

Not saying that it wont happen or not, but there does appear to be validity to G Walker's argument. We've seen many ducks not realized in this city where announcements get delayed then all of sudden "disappear"; without knowing Tim nor having lived in Tulsa where he is bullish, nor having any feedback or investative journalism on this issue so far, at all - am I right not to conclude that BP is starting to appear to be a duck?

It would suggest to me that our civic leadership has full knowledge of, and confidence in, the efforts of Rose Rock. I have gotten a highlights version of the story, and it is full of mind numbing, wonky, government details minutiae that make your eyes glaze over in 5 minutes. City, county, state and federal staff have the time to walk you through each of their requirements and progress on the project. Drop them a line and I'm sure they will get back to you eventually. In the mean time, I'm gonna trust the opinion of City Council that things are moving along properly.

i think G Walker hit on an interesting point that is only amplified by many on here in posts on this thread - why isn't the media seeking 'feedback' from Rose Rock on these developments? If it is truly because I dont know Tim Strange 'so I shouldn't bet against him' (no offense Rover :)), then why isn't the media seeking those answers to the delays instead of a few of us on this forum?

Not saying that it wont happen or not, but there does appear to be validity to G Walker's argument. We've seen many ducks not realized in this city where announcements get delayed then all of sudden "disappear"; without knowing Tim nor having lived in Tulsa where he is bullish, nor having any feedback or investative journalism on this issue so far, at all - am I right not to conclude that BP is starting to appear to be a duck?

I’m pretty sure Tim isn’t “bullish” on Tulsa anymore than OKC. The rest of the rose rock guys are just from here and it’s where they got their start. They also primarily have been involved in historic building conversions as far as residential is concerned and frankly there were way more candidate buildings for that type of project in downtown Tulsa than there were in downtown OKC (and they were probably cheaper). There’s more historic mid rise building stock up here and there aren’t as many owners (like Dowell or some of the bricktown owners) hoarding properties and not doing anything with them (ie. leaving them empty or as class C office space).

And LOL, The media isn't asking because outside of this site…no one really cares if it takes two years or four to build two apartment buildings. The group is reputable, they are still within the rules/regulations/or whatever that they agreed to when they won the RFP…so it’s not that big of deal and no one cares enough to do some big investigation on it lol. Now if we’re sitting here in a year or two and nothing has happened…I think some questions should be asked but for now…some of y’all need to chill. Im all for adding as much residential to downtown as possible but it’s not like we’re dealing with a huge shortage of options down there. I’ve been looking for myself and I haven’t had any issue finding available apartments at a variety of price points. How many of you are just itching to move into one of the spots the second it opens? If not, who cares if they open in 2024 or 2026?

Sometimes I wish the Oklahoman would afflict the comfortable.

i think G Walker hit on an interesting point that is only amplified by many on here in posts on this thread - why isn't the media seeking 'feedback' from Rose Rock on these developments? If it is truly because I dont know Tim Strange 'so I shouldn't bet against him' (no offense Rover :)), then why isn't the media seeking those answers to the delays instead of a few of us on this forum?

Not saying that it wont happen or not, but there does appear to be validity to G Walker's argument. We've seen many ducks not realized in this city where announcements get delayed then all of sudden "disappear"; without knowing Tim nor having lived in Tulsa where he is bullish, nor having any feedback or investative journalism on this issue so far, at all - am I right not to conclude that BP is starting to appear to be a duck?

The root of this issue is you and others just don't understand how normal development works - I don't know how to say that without it sounding somewhat rude, sorry.

When the land is a publicly owned site - you see the developer and process of real estate development from Day 1. Outside of public land development a developer is working on a project for at minimum a year, something 2-3 years, prior to even making any public announcements. Then usually from there it's still another 12-24 months of finalizing construction docs, any zoning changes needed, closing the construction loan, and getting permits and a construction team secured.

You and others seem to think that just because it's a public site developers can skip to year 2 or 3 immediately and shovels should be in the ground immediately. On a $50 million + project like this that has no basis in reality.

Not only does a development of this size typically take that long, they had the impacts of both Covid and inflation/interest rate increases. Any time rates go up even 1%, a developer might have to start completely over on their concept - like redoing the unit mix to find out what is profitable now versus originally. All that takes months, an architect doesn't get you a revised unit mix in a week - it's 2-3-4 months minimum. This isn't a normal wood frame build out, this would be concrete construction and requires rent levels that don't really exist in OKC for multifamily, especially when it was originally proposed. There isn't a concrete residential tower in Dallas that goes from land site identification to opening in less than 3 years or even in Austin - and the demand difference between those and Oklahoma is a lot and they also have dozens upon dozens of comparable towers that makes a bank more comfortable lending on too.

Alley's End as well is a tax credit development. Bitch at OFHA about that... they have funding schedules essentially once a year and it requires lengthy processes of market studies and other documents to even submit. If you don't get it the first year, then you literally have to wait 12 months before even trying again to secure a tax credit allocation from the state. There's nothing a developer can do at that point beside wait.

But first, you have to know what a duck is.

If you knew Tim Strange, you wouldn't bet against him. He is ethical, smart, hard working and thorough. Doesn't ensure this project 100% gets done, but it isn't because anything isn't being done to make it happen. He has a lot of trust built up in this community.

Is Tim Strange the new Rainey Williams? Remember how lionized he was by a certain local news writer?

Tim Strange and his Rose Rock partners are well known and respected in the OKC commercial real estate business. I believe that is why we don't see any grumblings in media or from city government. They understand this is a very complex project that involves multiple levels of city, county, state and federal governmental agencies. Although there is a possible big payout at the end, it is not fast, easy or cheap. Most developers stay away from this type deal.

There were three other developers who bid to win this project from urban renewal, so this statement appears incorrect on its face. Boulevard Place won the bid with grand promises of workforce housing and a day-care center, neither of which will materialize. This project was awarded before the pandemic.

So far all we have seen from this group is repeated visits to city council meetings with palms outstretched, requesting additional public largesse.

It's unfortunate one of the competing developers was not awarded this bid. In all likelihood, we would be seeing vertical construction if not a completed project. This has been going on for more than five years now.

It seems clear this group doesn't have the money to pull this off, even after receiving multiple rounds of assurances of new incentives from OKC.

There were three other developers who bid to win this project from urban renewal, so this statement appears incorrect on its face. Boulevard Place won the bid with grand promises of workforce housing and a day-care center, neither of which will materialize. This project was awarded before the pandemic.

So far all we have seen from this group is repeated visits to city council meetings with palms outstretched, requesting additional public largesse.

It's unfortunate one of the competing developers was not awarded this bid. In all likelihood, we would be seeing vertical construction if not a completed project. This has been going on for more than five years now.

It seems clear this group doesn't have the money to pull this off, even after receiving multiple rounds of assurances of new incentives from OKC.

Those developers that didn't get it are like the 2nd string QBs. They are always favored by the fans who always overrate them.

I'm reminded of the saying "everyone else's job is always easier if you don't have to do it yourself". It's hard to respect criticism when the critics have no actual information of what is really going on or what the issues really are, or what the real players are capable of or are doing. I listen to Pete when he is critical because he knows the business and has participated in multiple places. Knowledgeable criticism is way more value than yelling at the clouds. Seems we have a lot of yellers.

Those developers that didn't get it are like the 2nd string QBs. They are always favored by the fans who always overrate them.

I'm reminded of the saying "everyone else's job is always easier if you don't have to do it yourself". It's hard to respect criticism when the critics have no actual information of what is really going on or what the issues really are, or what the real players are capable of or are doing. I listen to Pete when he is critical because he knows the business and has participated in multiple places. Knowledgeable criticism is way more value than yelling at the clouds. Seems we have a lot of yellers.

Interesting theory, but you don't have any factual knowledge to say with certainty what they would or wouldn't have done.

Interesting theory, but you don't have any factual knowledge to say with certainty what they would or wouldn't have done.

True. But we don't hear anyone complaining that they lost out or agitating for the process to be reopened.

Interesting theory, but you don't have any factual knowledge to say with certainty what they would or wouldn't have done.

Well yeah. Under that logic there is nothing but sheer speculation about anything that might or might not be done in any future action on anything. So, ignorant speculation is just as valid as knowledgeable and experienced observation. Got it.

Based on personal knowledge and experience regarding Mr. Strange, his reputation among people I know and respect within the community and the industry, and based on his previous activity, while having a somewhat good and experienced knowledge of how developments are achieved, but without specific knowledge of his situation on THIS project at this exact time, I would be inclined to believe that a good faith effort is being made and progress is commensurate with the obstacles that are now present. I see no reason to suspect favoritism, class bias, or any of the other popular accusations. That is just my observations.

Is Tim Strange the new Rainey Williams? Remember how lionized he was by a certain local news writer?

HAHAHAHA I generally agree with Rover but you beat me to this ;)

There were three other developers who bid to win this project from urban renewal, so this statement appears incorrect on its face. Boulevard Place won the bid with grand promises of workforce housing and a day-care center, neither of which will materialize. This project was awarded before the pandemic.

So far all we have seen from this group is repeated visits to city council meetings with palms outstretched, requesting additional public largesse.

It's unfortunate one of the competing developers was not awarded this bid. In all likelihood, we would be seeing vertical construction if not a completed project. This has been going on for more than five years now.

It seems clear this group doesn't have the money to pull this off, even after receiving multiple rounds of assurances of new incentives from OKC.

I would have to think the extreme volatility of the financial side of construction projects since 2020 has likely had an effect on them. I know the straight up lack of availability of some materials dragged out their renovation of several units in my building. Between product price increases, material scarcity, labor difficulties, inflation and sky rocketing interest rates, it's a miracle that people have been able to build anything at all over the last few years...though to your point, others have. They may not have been as equiped to quickly weather the storm as others were.

Is it possible they have known about the arena situation for some time and have just been stalling?

Richard at Remax,
Yes, I said that over 7 months ago. I know that once OKC Alliance for ED found out about the City/Thunder wanting to build a new arena, it immediately stalled the development on this. The whole point of Boulevard Place was to accommodate employees in the direct area. Now, if the Cox Arena site is the chosen place, then I am sure we will see movement on this again. And I bet there will be a lot of developers, including Rose Rock, will want to find out what the city will do with the Paycom Center Area. That will be prime spot #1 for all developers. If a $1 Billion Dollar arena is built, there will be a who's who of developers wanting to build directly next to it.

It is interesting that there are several on here who are defending this developer, saying we shouldn't question the lack of movement on their projects. They say that since the City Council has closed door meetings or that I don't understand the OKC building process and should therefore inquire, that I and others with simple questions should not voice our opinion on a public forum even when it is not popular.

You can call me what you want, but we were promised they were ready to go and hence were awarded two sites. Now, as guru has indicated, not only have neither been built but neither will have the 'carrots' that were part of the original proposals. We saw the same with the Hill, right? It isn't finished, so I should call the local development office so they can coach me on how large projects are built? What about the Rainey Williams Stage Center situation? I don't know Rainey so therefore I should have called him so he could have told me his project really wasn't going to be built (the reality).

I care about my hometown and WILL continue to voice my opinion as long as I'm allowed on this site. I was one of the very few original posters who spoke up online for the city of Oklahoma City and it's potential long before OKCTalk was online or we had the Thunder or Hornets, or Devon Tower, or even the completion of the original MAPS or the current civic pride that many current residents enjoy now 25 years later. Like it or not, there's an ignore button I believe.

It is interesting that there are several on here who are defending this developer, saying we shouldn't question the lack of movement on their projects. They say that since the City Council has closed door meetings or that I don't understand the OKC building process and should therefore inquire, that I and others with simple questions should not voice our opinion on a public forum even when it is not popular.

You can call me what you want, but we were promised they were ready to go and hence were awarded two sites. Now, as guru has indicated, not only have neither been built but neither will have the 'carrots' that were part of the original proposals. We saw the same with the Hill, right? It isn't finished, so I should call the local development office so they can coach me on how large projects are built? What about the Rainey Williams Stage Center situation? I don't know Rainey so therefore I should have called him so he could have told me his project really wasn't going to be built (the reality).

I care about my hometown and WILL continue to voice my opinion as long as I'm allowed on this site. I was one of the very few original posters who spoke up online for the city of Oklahoma City and it's potential long before OKCTalk was online or we had the Thunder or Hornets, or Devon Tower, or even the completion of the original MAPS or the current civic pride that many current residents enjoy now 25 years later. Like it or not, there's an ignore button I believe.
Complaining on a social media site doesn’t mean you are making real inquiries, receiving answers from governmental agencies and sharing them with others.

Richard at Remax,
Yes, I said that over 7 months ago. I know that once OKC Alliance for ED found out about the City/Thunder wanting to build a new arena, it immediately stalled the development on this. The whole point of Boulevard Place was to accommodate employees in the direct area. Now, if the Cox Arena site is the chosen place, then I am sure we will see movement on this again. And I bet there will be a lot of developers, including Rose Rock, will want to find out what the city will do with the Paycom Center Area. That will be prime spot #1 for all developers. If a $1 Billion Dollar arena is built, there will be a who's who of developers wanting to build directly next to it.

weird that the OKC Alliance for Erectile Dysfunction cared about downtown arena plans

Complaining on a social media site doesn’t mean you are making real inquiries, receiving answers from governmental agencies and sharing them with others.

If I were there, believe me I would. But it wouldn't make much sense for someone 1500 miles away to even know who to call, am I right? Therefore, I'd have to voice my opinion on social media.

Well at least they mowed weeds. Give them more TIF!

But first, you have to know what a duck is.

If you knew Tim Strange, you wouldn't bet against him. He is ethical, smart, hard working and thorough. Doesn't ensure this project 100% gets done, but it isn't because anything isn't being done to make it happen. He has a lot of trust built up in this community.

all of this is 100% accurate

all of this is 100% accurate

Echo everything above. Tim is as good as they come, and OKC is lucky he's branched out to do more.

If all these posters are so familiar with Tim, why don't they ask him why this project isn't moving forward, at all? No progress, just constantly asking for more and more TIF funding?

Not bashing his character, just curious why nothing is moving forward, except this group with their hands out for more funding.

^ good point

Why doesn’t Pete or one of the staff interview him? Or someone who is a journalist. Friends who get special information from a friend usually don’t then spread that private information on social media. Friends don’t betray confidences. Details need to come from an investigative journalist from interviews and investigations.

Rose Rock isn't broke or anything like that. They just purchased the Palace Building in Tulsa from Berkshire Hathaway, who had converted the building to lofts in 2017. BH had acquired the building when they bought the Tulsa World next door.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/historic-palace-building-downtown-to-be-sold/article_13ee65cc-3abf-11ee-9c53-6bbe225930c9.html#tracking-source=home-the-latest

So they have money to buy a building in Tulsa, yet keep sticking their hands out for even more from OKC? Acting in bad faith should be criminal.

So they have money to buy a building in Tulsa, yet keep sticking their hands out for even more from OKC? Acting in bad faith should be criminal.

lol it is not in bad faith ... every project has to have the correct numbers to cash flow otherwise it is not investable ..

lol it is not in bad faith ... every project has to have the correct numbers to cash flow otherwise it is not investable ..

Well, they could have easily started this project before buying other properties. You know, since Boulevard Place has been more than 3 years in the making.

Hence my bad faith comment. They have been putting this project on the back-burner for years. And only come back to get more money. Of course costs keep going up, if you wait long enough.

Bad faith exemplified.

Well, they could have easily started this project before buying other properties. You know, since Boulevard Place has been more than 3 years in the making.

i wonder what could have happened in the last 3 years

i wonder what could have happened in the last 3 years

See the rest of my comment. Obviously not enough has happened to keep them from buying a 100+ year old building.

Why wouldn't they buy another building if that deal was right? Are they to be denied access to their livelihood until they make this deal happen? Nobody including the developer has ever said that they don't have capital. They've only said that the financials on this particular project have continued to change and don't work without assistance. It's certainly their right to pursue other deals while working to put this one fully together.

There is often a big disconnect on this board regarding how development deals are financed. Real estate developers don't pay cash when they build; they rely on banks and investors, none of whom will choose to participate in a deal that doesn't work on paper. And it often takes time, reworking, and sometimes incentives, to make a deal workable (and investible). This is ESPECIALLY true on a deal that may have worked on paper three years ago. The world is a very different place than it was when this RFP took place, and none of that is the developer's fault.

OCURA update:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard081523a.jpg

Seems like a downgrade.

A downgrade is the only thing that would make sense. The various costs of money, materials and labor have increased exponentially since the initial proposal was received. Cost cutting (combined with incentives) is the only path forward.

The original plan called for 22,000 sf of retail space and now it is reported 5,000 sf of retail space. Is the other 17,000 sf of ground floor space being leased as apartments? Does anyone have any insight into that?

Nevermind, I answered my own question. It went from 241 apartments to 265. I would assume that extra 24 would go to apartments (708 sf each).

Nevermind, I answered my own question. It went from 241 apartments to 265. I would assume that extra 24 would go to apartments (708 sf each).

Arguably an upgrade, IMO. It has been so hard to put the ground-level retail space at LIFT and Steelyard to good use (and even the Edge has rotated through a lot of tenants in all of their spaces besides Commonplace). Meanwhile apartment vacancies continue to be quite low across the city. Assuming this finally gets built, it still seems fine to me.

Still looks really nice. Hope they break ground soon.

Sacrificing retail space for living is a pretty good trade, a win in my book. It means there will be many more residents living downtown. Density's going up fast these days, and it doesn't serve much purpose building more retail when there isn't enough people living in the downtown area itself. I know it's stupid to hope that the units would be affordable, especially considering proximity to the park, the Omni, Paycom Center, and the Myriad, but maybe they can sell units for a reasonable price tag.

Why wouldn't they buy another building if that deal was right? Are they to be denied access to their livelihood until they make this deal happen? Nobody including the developer has ever said that they don't have capital. They've only said that the financials on this particular project have continued to change and don't work without assistance. It's certainly their right to pursue other deals while working to put this one fully together.

There is often a big disconnect on this board regarding how development deals are financed. Real estate developers don't pay cash when they build; they rely on banks and investors, none of whom will choose to participate in a deal that doesn't work on paper. And it often takes time, reworking, and sometimes incentives, to make a deal workable (and investible). This is ESPECIALLY true on a deal that may have worked on paper three years ago. The world is a very different place than it was when this RFP took place, and none of that is the developer's fault.

Thank you for bringing sanity to the board. People tend to get emotional not rational, and often make posts based on assumptions or a lack of understanding of how these kind of deals are put together.

Well, they could have easily started this project before buying other properties. You know, since Boulevard Place has been more than 3 years in the making.

Hence my bad faith comment. They have been putting this project on the back-burner for years. And only come back to get more money. Of course costs keep going up, if you wait long enough.

Bad faith exemplified.

Who’s running Rose Rock??? THE AIRPORT DIRECTOR?!?!?

See the rest of my comment. Obviously not enough has happened to keep them from buying a 100+ year old building.

Why would they not buy it if available? Their other building across the street is doing well, as are the other buildings they own downtown. It fits their profile and is already converted…seems like an easy decision.

Who’s running Rose Rock??? THE AIRPORT DIRECTOR?!?!?

Awe, "look at me, I'm PhiAlpha, and I live to take threads off topic:.

Awe, "look at me, I'm PhiAlpha, and I live to take threads off topic:.

Awe look at me, I’m chssooner…everyone in charge of everything in OKC is terrible. ESPECIALLY THE ROSE ROCK AIRPORT DIRECTOR!!!