Are there examples where a TIF project was a catalyst for substantial non-TIF projects 5 to 15 years?

Absolutely. And Pete has provided some good examples already and, well, pretty much everything in downtown has been impacted by TIF assistance directly or indirectly. To use that as justification for continuing it in perpetuity for any developer who asks for it essentially undermines the original intent of TIF. And it seems like it's being done somewhat unconditionally at this point.

But you can also reverse that question: Is there an example of a TIF project that waited 5 years, did almost nothing while everything around it was developed and/or improved, and had its TIF award increased by almost 400% during that time?

maybe what we could do is either

1) have the TIF districts expire earlier than 25 years. What if it were 10 or 15 years, would that be better for schools?

2) have a proportion of the increase from the TIF district still go to schools. This whould show a huge commitment to schools if, say 25% of the TIF would still go to schools. Using Pete's $360m from TIF2, Oklahoma City Public Schools would receive $90m. Im certain OKC Public schools could benefit from that influx of revenue; and there would still be $250m for development incentive.

the best scenario would be to implement both; let's revise the TIF process to give something to the schools and a shorter run.

maybe what we could do is either

1) have the TIF districts expire earlier than 25 years. What if it were 10 or 15 years, would that be better for schools?

2) have a proportion of the increase from the TIF district still go to schools. This whould show a huge commitment to schools if, say 25% of the TIF would still go to schools. Using Pete's $360m from TIF2, Oklahoma City Public Schools would receive $90m. Im certain OKC Public schools could benefit from that influx of revenue; and there would still be $250m for development incentive.

the best scenario would be to implement both; let's revise the TIF process to give something to the schools and a shorter run.

the issue of course is that it is not the OKC City council's primary job to care / worry about okc public schools .. (clearly it is a care but not the primary care)

and TIF is how cities in this state can actual use property tax ...

If TIF is so great and doesn't rob Peter to pay Paul then why not just make the entire City one big TIF district?

I think the issue that should concern city leaders is that, at some point, enough citizens will knowledge up, start a campaign and work to get TIF as a whole banned. We have too many opportunities for TIF to be a great investment vehicle to jeopardize it with short-sighted usage. I can understand maybe having 3 or 4, ten-year rolling TIFs in the Core of downtown as a way to keep funds on hand to lend to other TIFs
that are truly helping build up blighted areas (See Wheeler) or for special projects (Skirvin/First National). But A) 25 years is too long for any area that has already received substantial investment (10-year rolling would allow us to redefine the baseline calculation and send those funds back to the county/aka schools) and B) TIF needs a few more rules placed on it from an eligibility perspective.

the issue of course is that it is not the OKC City council's primary job to care / worry about okc public schools .. (clearly it is a care but not the primary care)

and TIF is how cities in this state can actual use property tax ...

If they are conscientious and responsible councilmembers, then doing what’s best for our public education system is 100% something they should prioritize. If they are not, one could correctly conclude they aren’t up to the job. Whether it’s technically in their purview or not isn’t really the issue. The issue is that they want to make decisions that will improve our city and its outcomes. The best councilmembers will be the ones who do what’s best for the city — thinking even beyond their individual ward.

If they are conscientious and responsible councilmembers, then doing what’s best for our public education system is 100% something they should prioritize. If they are not, one could correctly conclude they aren’t up to the job. Whether it’s technically in their purview or not isn’t really the issue. The issue is that they want to make decisions that will improve our city and its outcomes. The best councilmembers will be the ones who do what’s best for the city — thinking even beyond their individual ward.

very much disagree .. . more money has never fixed any school district .. and OKC council has no control over bad policy .

I am not shocked at one bit. Your viewpoint is centered on people adhering to the basest legal obligation and nothing more. I like you personally but you would be an awful civic leader.

A better education system starts with a better family education system. Schools and teachers can produce good students if parents don't value education and don't give their children the support/encouragement/motivate to thrive.

very much disagree .. . more money has never fixed any school district .. and OKC council has no control over bad policy .
MONEY ALONE has never fixed any school district. But, lack of money can kill a good plan run by competent people. It’s not binary.

very much disagree .. . more money has never fixed any school district .. and OKC council has no control over bad policy .

These statements that "money" doesn't "fix" schools are not constructive. What does a statement like that even mean? It's like saying that building transportation options will never "fix" mobility issues. Schools are complex systems that are greatly affected by a number of other societal factors, and their "success" is measured by deeply flawed metrics. I can say one thing, underfunding schools does great detriment to students' educational experiences. So, yeah, funding makes a big difference.


MONEY ALONE has never fixed any school district. But, lack of money can kill a good plan run by competent people. It’s not binary.

Thank you.

At this point, I would almost rather them save this site for a possible Omni Hotel expansion.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article274299435.html

Put me in the camp that is quickly souring on TIF. Boulevard Place has driven me there. I am utterly disgusted by the way this project has played out.

1. Initially, when presented, the Boulevard Place proposal offered vignettes about serving as "workplace housing" for service staff at Omni.
2. There were going to be "affordable units" offered, and price points suggested were in the $700 range for studio apartments.
3. The city offered money from its GO bond for affordable housing as incentive.
4. Cathy O'Connor hailed the Boulevard Place proposal as the choice because it offered more affordable units than competing proposals.
5. This was going to be a panacea - a bright, high-impact residential complex with both market-rate and affordable units. There was going to be a day care center. The list of promises goes on and on.

Why was this group really chosen? That's what I want to know. It's been five years and they haven't delivered anything. They only keep coming back with palms out begging for more public money. There will be no day care center. There will be no studio units less than $1,100. There will be few if any Omni employees living there.

TIF is a great tool, and one I have avoided having knee-jerk opposition to, but this proposal has absolutely made a mockery of it and provided ammunition for those who are opposed to it. TIF should not serve to ensure that developers make millions on a proposal when they are receiving public money.

We have gone five years and nothing has happened with this proposal. It seems clear to me that the developers did not have the financial ability to pull this off, which should have been easy to glean by doing due diligence. They just made a lot of exciting promises to sell the rubes and reneged on all of them in short order. So, we will have a large apartment complex for high-income individuals in an area that is prime real estate. TIF is supposed to be a tool to rebuild blighted areas, and, as Pete has pointed out, this is not a blighted area by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm disgusted by how this has played out and again, I wonder, why was this group awarded this precious site?

Put me in the camp that is quickly souring on TIF. Boulevard Place has driven me there. I am utterly disgusted by the way this project has played out.

1. Initially, when presented, the Boulevard Place proposal offered vignettes about serving as "workplace housing" for service staff at Omni.
2. There were going to be "affordable units" offered, and price points suggested were in the $700 range for studio apartments.
3. The city offered money from its GO bond for affordable housing as incentive.
4. Cathy O'Connor hailed the Boulevard Place proposal as the choice because it offered more affordable units than competing proposals.
5. This was going to be a panacea - a bright, high-impact residential complex with both market-rate and affordable units. There was going to be a day care center. The list of promises goes on and on.

Why was this group really chosen? That's what I want to know. It's been five years and they haven't delivered anything. They only keep coming back with palms out begging for more public money. There will be no day care center. There will be no studio units less than $1,100. There will be few if any Omni employees living there.

TIF is a great tool, and one I have avoided having knee-jerk opposition to, but this proposal has absolutely made a mockery of it and provided ammunition for those who are opposed to it. TIF should not serve to ensure that developers make millions on a proposal when they are receiving public money.

We have gone five years and nothing has happened with this proposal. It seems clear to me that the developers did not have the financial ability to pull this off, which should have been easy to glean by doing due diligence. They just made a lot of exciting promises to sell the rubes and reneged on all of them in short order. So, we will have a large apartment complex for high-income individuals in an area that is prime real estate. TIF is supposed to be a tool to rebuild blighted areas, and, as Pete has pointed out, this is not a blighted area by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm disgusted by how this has played out and again, I wonder, why was this group awarded this precious site?

Ya this one seems like a head scratcher. Who couldnt build an apartment complex wwhen you get $80,000 per unit in assistance? Amazing how the Lift developer was able to build 350 some odd unit complex in the downtown area with no incentives yet these 268 apartments need $21,500,000.

^

They also have a ready-built parking garage they can connect to.

Ya this one seems like a head scratcher. Who couldnt build an apartment complex wwhen you get $80,000 per unit in assistance? Amazing how the Lift developer was able to build 350 some odd unit complex in the downtown area with no incentives yet these 268 apartments need $21,500,000.

It really doesn't seem like "need" is a consideration when awarding TIF. At this point, it looks like it's just a matter of if the developer wants to spend the time and resources to go through the process. If they're ready to go and have financing, it may make more sense to move up the ROI timeline than go fishing for government assistance. Granted, it also doesn't look like there are any standards or timelines to adhere to even if they do get TIF.

I'm not sure anything is really known about OKC's TIF procedures or criteria other than the amounts and length of the assistance once it's awarded. So, whether a 'need' was defined or even considered, we'll probably never know.

Time = money. And OKC has lost five years on this deal with nothing to show for it. The pandemic excuse is BS. Developments went on throughout the country during the pandemic, and really, this could have broken ground by the end of 2019 if this group had had financing in place.

Is it OKC's fault that this development group is blaming the relatively recent interest rate increases because they dawdled for four years until the interest rates went up?

We witnessed the felling of Stage Center as a result of insider deals and false promises. We have witnessed all kinds of chicanery. This one takes the cake. They basically promised a bunch of stuff they either couldn't afford to include in their proposal or had no intention of fulfilling -- just to win the bid. Which is why I question why this group was chosen. A proper due diligence of the proposal would have seemingly shown that they didn't have the financing or their promises were not doable.

It would be interesting to revisit the other proposals that were submitted during the RFP phase. One wonders, rightfully, if another proposal would already be welcoming occupants right now instead of asking for more and more public money while at the same time removing critical elements of the proposal that gave them the deal.

Again, the TIF is being twisted to guarantee profits for the developers, not deliver the things the city wanted from the development. It really, really stinks.

Time = money. And OKC has lost five years on this deal with nothing to show for it. The pandemic excuse is BS. Developments went on throughout the country during the pandemic, and really, this could have broken ground by the end of 2019 if this group had had financing in place.

Is it OKC's fault that this development group is blaming the relatively recent interest rate increases because they dawdled for four years until the interest rates went up?

We witnessed the felling of Stage Center as a result of insider deals and false promises. We have witnessed all kinds of chicanery. This one takes the cake. They basically promised a bunch of stuff they either couldn't afford to include in their proposal or had no intention of fulfilling -- just to win the bid. Which is why I question why this group was chosen. A proper due diligence of the proposal would have seemingly shown that they didn't have the financing or their promises were not doable.

It would be interesting to revisit the other proposals that were submitted during the RFP phase. One wonders, rightfully, if another proposal would already be welcoming occupants right now instead of asking for more and more public money while at the same time removing critical elements of the proposal that gave them the deal.

Again, the TIF is being twisted to guarantee profits for the developers, not deliver the things the city wanted from the development. It really, really stinks.

you understand that they haven't been given any money at all .. right??

It's evident they didn't have financing in place from the beginning, then COVID, then no financing, then inflation. After all this, still not confident this will break ground anytime soon even with TIF. And I am sure they will change the design.

Why can't we attract national developers to handle these deals?

Why can't we attract national developers to handle these deals?
This is a great question for which I’d like answers.

Because they perceive they can make more money elsewhere.

Because they perceive they can make more money elsewhere.

The Cordish Companies did a magnificent job with the Power & Light District in Kansas City, which is kinda on the same level with ours, maybe our city leaders need to work harder to convince developers at that caliber to come here and develop a project at that scale around Paycom Center?

The Cordish Companies did a magnificent job with the Power & Light District in Kansas City, which is kinda on the same level with ours, maybe our city leaders need to work harder to convince developers at that caliber to come here and develop a project at that scale around Paycom Center?

Not one for conspiracy theories, but this whole BP thing reeks of an inside deal. Therefore, there would be no interest in seeking other outside competent developers. Someone really, really wanted this group to win the bid for some reason.

Okc seems to attract this. Sounds familiar. Grandiose plans the inevitable large scale reductions and the continued existing lack of density. I don’t know much. Just seeing some patterns. It’s amazing what a unicorn the Devon, BokPp and Omni really were for the city. Perhaps if the city instituted some rules. Bare minimum density requirements in the cbd.

OKC is no different than any other city when it comes to failed development plans. We only see it in OKC because that is what we focus on. You could pick any city in America from NYC to Fresno and you will find a list of dead projects much longer than OKC's.

OKC is no different than any other city when it comes to failed development plans. We only see it in OKC because that is what we focus on. You could pick any city in America from NYC to Fresno and you will find a list of dead projects much longer than OKC's.

ho hum

The Cordish Companies did a magnificent job with the Power & Light District in Kansas City, which is kinda on the same level with ours, maybe our city leaders need to work harder to convince developers at that caliber to come here and develop a project at that scale around Paycom Center?

Cordish Companies also almost bankrupted the City of Kansas City in the process too.

https://nextcity.org/features/kansas-city-mall-downtown-development-subsidies-cordish-companies

^ Just a bit of background on it, it's an interesting look at how TIF deals and their structures can go very, very wrong. This is just for the initial part of Power & Light... Cordish has also gotten massive amount of subsidies to build the high-rise apartment buildings.

The Cordish Companies did a magnificent job with the Power & Light District in Kansas City, which is kinda on the same level with ours, maybe our city leaders need to work harder to convince developers at that caliber to come here and develop a project at that scale around Paycom Center?

What does "working harder" mean to you? What are they not doing that you think others are doing?

We brag about the low cost of housing here but don't understand why developers might find that as a negative.

What does "working harder" mean to you? What are they not doing that you think others are doing?

We brag about the low cost of housing here but don't understand why developers might find that as a negative.

We’ve improved but Better Quality of life options are available elsewhere ,density, educated workforce and honestly a lot of people are put off by the local politics

I did pay about 30% more than my home is worth but it’s still cheaper than California unless you’re talking Fresno or Bakersfield

It has nothing to do with the perception of Oklahoma or Oklahoma City. The issue is that the good ol' boy system is still in affect here. A lot of out of state developers don't have a chance against local developers. Because the local developers have access, reputations, and under handed agreements, and side conversations. They rather give a bid to a local boy , then an unknown out state developer. Even if the local has half of a plan. Same reason why the Rand Elliot office proposal for the Harrison block was awarded with some bs conceptual last minute renderings.

Most national developers do not work in tertiary cities like OKC. Hines is an exception with Devon/BOK and Classen. Milhaus is another one but I would call them more of a regional developer.

^

Hines hasn't done any development work in OKC unless you count the now-in-limbo Canton where they were brought in as a partner after the project was already well underway.

They were construction managers for Devon and BOK Park Plaza.

The biggest example of out-of-state developers is NE Development. They are the ones behind First National Center, Maywood Apartments, the apartments at The Half (Broadvue), Argon at Chisholm Creek, and some other properties most often attributed to Gary Brooks.

The Skirvin was renovated and owned by Marcus of Milwaukee until recently. The Omni was developed by out-of-staters. A bunch of other hotels and tons of apartments as well.

Many, many restaurants and retail stores were developed by people who do not live here. Same with industrial and warehouse properties.

There are a ton of commercial properties owned by out-of-state investors and a ton of outside money invested in OKC.

Also, Leadership Square was developed by Metropolitan Life and Oklahoma Tower, Corporate Tower, and Mid-America Tower (now Continental) were developed by Vincent Carroza of Dallas.

Really, most of the private development downtown in the 1970s through the 90s was done by people out of state.

Pete, what do you think about this?
I think the reason why this development is in the delay mode, is because of the new arena talk. This development was supposed to be linked to this area (Omni & Paycom Center). Affordable housing for those workers in the area, etc. I think we wont have movement until the city shows what they are going to do with land that Paycom is on.

I know they were delayed because of covid, but I think the mayor's announcement for a new arena has further delayed it.

^^^No.

Will anything ever happen here? Stinks so much prime land near the park has either owners who almost don't care or are struggling to finance plans.

For me, this is the most disappointing project in dt.
The idea was fine, more appartement downtown to finish up the area but no. We have a patch of grass for years now.

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

I am still honoring this btw...js...

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

No need to buy me lunch. This lot will see parking before it sees a bedroom. You can tell just by the entities involved.

I'd rather see this as an expansion for the Omni Hotel.

or a different, highrise hotel or hotel/condo tower.

Boulevard of Broken Dreams. Sorry, someone had to do it.

Glad to see they finally mowed the forest of weeds the other day

Developer might start moving on this one soon - they just got their most recent Tulsa project approved through TDA/Partner Tulsa so probably means they can turn their focus more towards getting financing, etc. in place. Was told this got placed on the backburner. They're building an 8 story apartment building next to BOK Center on the parking lot on the block with the old Cimarex tower, Hampton Inn, and the Northwest Mutual building.

Developer might start moving on this one soon - they just got their most recent Tulsa project approved through TDA/Partner Tulsa so probably means they can turn their focus more towards getting financing, etc. in place. Was told this got placed on the backburner. They're building an 8 story apartment building next to BOK Center on the parking lot on the block with the old Cimarex tower, Hampton Inn, and the Northwest Mutual building.
Any renderings of the Tulsa project?

Any renderings of the Tulsa project?

18202

18203

18204

All these are from the public meeting from last month where TDA approved the land sale and they should start construction in a few months. Copy of the TDA agenda here: https://www.docdroid.net/ttUxVhw/agenda-item-07-3d-flats-development-pkg-5-18-23-1-pdf#page=3

Rose Rock is doing multiple projects between Tulsa and OKC - it's a small firm too staff wise (not money/funding wise). Once some of the other projects move along I'm sure this will go forward. Can't make everything happen all at once and Rose Rock is a good group.

Not going to hold my breath. If they couldn't take on the project head on, they never should of bid, going on 6 years. Sell the land Omni and let the hotel expand.

Not going to hold my breath. If they couldn't take on the project head on, they never should of bid, going on 5 years. Sell the land Omni and let the hotel expand.

18202

18203

18204

All these are from the public meeting from last month where TDA approved the land sale and they should start construction in a few months. Copy of the TDA agenda here: https://www.docdroid.net/ttUxVhw/agenda-item-07-3d-flats-development-pkg-5-18-23-1-pdf#page=3

Rose Rock is doing multiple projects between Tulsa and OKC - it's a small firm too staff wise (not money/funding wise). Once some of the other projects move along I'm sure this will go forward. Can't make everything happen all at once and Rose Rock is a good group.
Appreciate the links and information!

Has Omni indicated they want to expand? My big questions are 1) if they'd want to, given potential new downtown hotels on the horizon that could saturate the market, and 2) if so, what time scale to expansion? Granted, someone somewhere probably has done the economic analysis that would be able to give an indication--I am not going to pretend I have any clue to that. But my worry that if Omni has determined, based on population trajectories, tourism growth, etc., that it isn't viable for, say, another 10 years to have an expansion, that we would end up in the same situation of an undeveloped lot sitting there. Granted, they could go the route of making it a parking lot in the time being, which would then mitigate the field of weeds.

We are about to be on an international stage with the 2028 summer Olympics, thats enough juice for Omni to expand.

We are about to be on an international stage with the 2028 summer Olympics, thats enough juice for Omni to expand.

No.

I see people on here bemoaning the amount of money to build a new arena. You think it's worth giving Omni another $300-400 million to expand? Because that's what it would take. And no, one sport being shown on TV for 5 minute clips off and on internationally does not warrant Omni paying for that themselves let alone mean OKC should invest that either. The way they flip between sports, literally no one is going to have a clue they aren't watching a facility that isn't in LA much less one that is in Oklahoma (hate to break that to people). That event will bring in spectators, but not for longer than a few days for a week or two - not for the next 20 years. Much larger cities than OKC have to financially support convention hotels and OKC is not a tourism spot like Austin or Nashville where a convention size hotel can self finance itself. The Omni does not need to be larger than it already is or it would completely wipe out the hotel market downtown for the next 5-10 years. OKC needs more organic growth with dozens of different hotels/brands on a dozen different surface parking lots in close proximity to the convention center - not one, 1,200 or more room hotel.

IF there is ever a need for another 600 large block of rooms hotel - OKC still owns plenty of land on the southside of the convention center that could hold a second convention hotel plus an expanded convention center. Maybe in a decade or two.

We already have a dozen different hotels/brands on a dozen different surface parking lots , so what's your point. If anything, OKC need another 500+ 5 star hotel, and maybe another. We have enough cheap 4-6 story 135 room Fairfield & Country Inn's, time to think bigger.

We already have a dozen different hotels/brands on a dozen different surface parking lots , so what's your point. If anything, OKC need another 500+ 5 star hotel, and maybe another. We have enough cheap 4-6 story 135 room Fairfield & Country Inn's, time to think bigger.

You have zero clue how any of that works. This isn't Sim City or City Skylines and the City of Oklahoma City also doesn't have that kind of money to throw around - will be lucky to get a new arena financed.

OKC actually does need more Fairfield Inn (with a bit less parking) and could use another dozen of one's like the Renaissance in Bricktown. That's how you build a vibrant city too.

The occupancy rate of the new Omni is less than 50%, that's awful for a normal hotel. There's a reason they don't normally build hotels that large and no Omni has zero interest in expanding the OKC hotel. The size of the Omni in OKC does not limit any conventions that would be interested in coming to OKC in the first place. The ONLY thing that damaged OKC from being able to land events was moving the center too far south and away from existing hotel stock. That's something that isn't fixable fast.

With you only having 53 comments and just joined a few months ago. I am taking you don't know much about OKCTALK, and my rep on here. So I am going to take anything you say with a grain a salt. But it's ok, it really is, nothing personal, this is just a forum. I stand by what I say. Omni is great, and bustling, not sure where you get your facts from, you must live in a tent on the lake.

With you only having 53 comments and just joined a few months ago. I am taking you don't know much about OKCTALK, and my rep on here. So I am going to take anything you say with a grain a salt. But it's ok, it really is, nothing personal, this is just a forum. I stand by what I say. Omni is great, and bustling, not sure where you get your facts from, you must live in a tent on the lake.

It's ok, I didn't take what you said with more than a grain of salt either if you think it's a good idea to take a potential project away from a reputable developer with Tim Strange as the chairman of the company on the fanciful dream of expanding a convention center hotel that is already the perfect size for the market. A dream that would have to be 100% paid for by taxpayers in order to do so. That would be just awesome to see I bet. Would really move OKC forward into future by bankrupting the city for dumb projects.

Where does one check the occupancy rates for hotels in the metro? Is there like a website?