There were crews onsite Tuesday morning doing some work. Looked like they were drilling for soil samples?

The high price of affordable downtown housing
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/09/26/okc-downtown-home-lower-income-residents-defies-easy-answers/5798774001/

The high price of affordable downtown housing
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/09/26/okc-downtown-home-lower-income-residents-defies-easy-answers/5798774001/

At least, it creates more inventory Downtown so it will help.

The high price of affordable downtown housing
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/09/26/okc-downtown-home-lower-income-residents-defies-easy-answers/5798774001/

Good article. Raises the infuriating issues I brought up about this a month or so ago. Unfortunately, the timing of the article makes it irrelevant now that the votes have all happened and the money is set to be disbursed.

That we have a taxpayer-funded pot of money to create additional affordable housing is great. That it was tapped in this specific case is not.

Getting $7.2 million in TIF.

This should be breaking ground soon than, finally....

My understanding is that work will start this spring.

New target for construction start is May 15th.

OCURA just agreed to extend the start date of this project to December 1, 2022 and the completion date to December 1, 2024.

The developers are attempting to finalize financing and a good chunk will come from HUD, which is notoriously slow.

They have already received OCURA approval for their detailed plans, so it's just a matter of finalizing financing then this project should start to move forward.

High construction costs have likely played a part. And yes HUD is difficult but worth it for their long-term fixed-rate, non-recourse financing

Question: Doesn't financing have to be secured by the developer at the time a bid is awarded for an RFP with OCURA?

Question: Doesn't financing have to be secured by the developer at the time a bid is awarded for an RFP with OCURA?

No.

You can't get financing until you have a detailed plan.

They select conditional developers based on their track record and overall plan. They have to perform on an agreed-upon timeline and they are not allowed to purchase the property until all conditions are met.

All the OCURA deals have a generous time allotment to obtain the necessary financing because it's always a long and complicated process.

I know someone who works for HUD. His sole job is to log in the applications and check for completeness. He gets a full week to do this before the application gets “picked up” by another reviewer. Then sent to another reviewer. And that’s just the pre-application. Government bureaucracy at its finest.

randomly came across this thread, honestly wish i had more patience but it's very exciting to start seeing the work go up in this corner sooner than later!

These things take time but hopefully we start to see some movement at the end of the year.

Any updates on this? Not assuming it is on hold, but is it delayed? Or just due to supply chain issues?

December is the new estimated start date.

I guess that means it will start next year then, since does any major construction ever start in December? Dont they usually wait for the weather to 'cooperate'?

There are bobcats and some type small crane on the site.

It looks like they are taking core samples.

Their building permit has not been issued as of yet and the last official word on this is that they would start construction in December.

Still, this is a sign of forward movement.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard080722a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard080722b.jpg

Forgive me if this has already been posted and I missed it (the filing is from July), but the latest filing with the Downtown Design Review Committee summarizes the design changes being sought, which have to be re-approved.

https://i.imgur.com/agS3bQm.png

It looks like they are taking core samples.

Their building permit has not been issued as of yet and the last official word on this is that they would start construction in December.

Still, this is a sign of forward movement.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard080722a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boulevard080722b.jpg

Pete have you heard anything new about the project located on the old goodwill site?

Pete have you heard anything new about the project located on the old goodwill site?

I asked the city about this about a month ago and there has been no movement.

Mazaheri (the owner) was required to have submitted plans by now or face fines. He is far past the deadline.

I asked the city about this about a month ago and there has been no movement.

Mazaheri (the owner) was required to have submitted plans by now or face fines. He is far past the deadline.

If the city or judge does not enforce the agreement then this is bad governance.

Any update with this project? Figured we'd see some movement by now

Last I heard, work had been delayed to December.

However, I just checked the status of their building permit and the developers have still not responded to requests from the city for more information. In other words, the ball has been in their court for months without any movement.

I'll check with the Alliance to see if they can provide an update.

Has anything happened with this development?

A new TIF award has been initiated for this project.

Originally, there was a $5.7 million TIF that received final approval in 2021; this is to be rescinded.

Now the amount is $21.5 million against a total investment of $82.8 which equates to 26% of the budget.

When does it end? My goodness

I expect we are going to see the same sort of TIF increases for Alley's End.

A new TIF award has been initiated for this project.

Originally, there was a $5.7 million TIF that received final approval in 2021; this is to be rescinded.

Now the amount is $21.5 million against a total investment of $82.8 which equates to 26% of the budget.

lol jesus christ

Did the cost of these projects increase? Or just the TIF?

Did the cost of these projects increase? Or just the TIF?

When the $5.7 million was awarded, a total investment amount wasn't listed.

When the $5.7 million was awarded, a total investment amount wasn't listed.

Ah, ok. Seems crazy these TIFs are so high. Seems developers just aren't sure people want to live downtown yet (same with the Dream hotel and residential development).

I think both will be a hit, and pay dividends for OKC in the long-run, though. And lead to more residential development downtown.

In the real world, when costs rise or the economics dont work or theres uncertainty in the market, things get put on hold or maybe even cancelled. In the TIF world, you just ask for and receive a larger portion of ad valorem taxes to make it happen. Its been delayed enough as it is, just put it on hold further until costs get more realistic. This project doesnt HAVE to happen right now, and not with $21.5 million of public dollars, which is 4 times higher than the previous request! Inflation is bad but didnt know it was 4x higher bad...

In the real world, when costs rise or the economics dont work or theres uncertainty in the market, things get put on hold or maybe even cancelled. In the TIF world, you just ask for and receive a larger portion of ad valorem taxes to make it happen. Its been delayed enough as it is, just put it on hold further until costs get more realistic. This project doesnt HAVE to happen right now, and not with $21.5 million of public dollars, which is 4 times higher than the previous request! Inflation is bad but didnt know it was 4x higher bad...

the money doesn't exist with out this project ...

no reason to delay it ..

At some point downtown housing and other commercial development have to stand on their own.

We've created a monster that is not only growing but at an increasing rate.

Usually when one high-rise tower is successful, you see a snowball effect. More developers will follow suit. Its easier to get financing for high rise residential vs. high rise office. Residential projects have a stronger ROI right now.

I definitely don’t blame any developer for taking advantage of TIF and asking for as much as they can get but at some point the city has to rein it in. That said, if the city makes it indiscriminately available…no one should be upset at developers if they try to use it…they would be dumb not to.

I definitely don’t blame any developer for taking advantage of TIF and asking for as much as they can get but at some point the city has to rein it in. That said, if the city makes it indiscriminately available…no one should be upset at developers if they try to use it…they would be dumb not to.

TIF is really the only way the city can use property taxes.

They have no real incentive to not continue to use it.

More residents down town will all greatly increase sales taxes. And the city does benefit from that.

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

This project has been an utter disappointment. I would be more supportive of the TIF if this group were truly offering affordable housing along the lines they suggested before being awarded the project. It’s disappointing that other bidders were passed over for this developer and may already have a completed project by now. It is reminiscent of the Hill in some ways.

This project has been an utter disappointment. I would be more supportive of the TIF if this group were truly offering affordable housing along the lines they suggested before being awarded the project. It’s disappointing that other bidders were passed over for this developer and may already have a completed project by now. It is reminiscent of the Hill in some ways.

if the original developers still had the hill there would be 1 more building for sure and maybe 2 already ..

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....
Haha no free lunch in my future then.

the money doesn't exist with out this project ...

no reason to delay it ..

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

0 because that are not spending any money they get the tax revenue from residents right away the city wins

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

Now I am furiously emailing and calling the developers, begging them to begin.

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

0 because that are not spending any money they get the tax revenue from residents right away the city wins
There is a very strong case to be made that the ad valorem taxing entities only lose money if they DON’T help make this project a reality.

Meaning: it is currently an unimproved parking lot that generates very little property tax. It could sit like this for ANOTHER twenty years, providing near-zero economic boost, or something can be built upon it, triggering new assessments based upon newly-appraised value. A portion of which would still no matter what go to the TIF district in which it resides, but a portion of which goes to taxing entities.

Now, it’s possible that the space could be developed using low-slung buildings like the rest of lower Bricktown, which would generate SOME additional revenue, sure.

OR, this massive development - which requires assistance to pencil - goes in and generates a correspondingly massive increase in tax generation, a portion of which helps fund the project, but a portion of which will go to the taxing entities AS NEWLY-REALIZED REVENUE. Not to mention major increases in room tax collections on any hotel rooms, and sales tax collections throughout.

We go ‘round and ‘round on this board regarding TIF, but I continue to believe that few here fully understand that TIF is only derived from INCREASED ad valorem tax. No development, no new tax receipts. EVERYBODY loses. You can’t save money if you never had it in the first place.

We go ‘round and ‘round on this board regarding TIF, but I continue to believe that few here fully understand that TIF is only derived from INCREASED ad valorem tax. No development, no new tax receipts. EVERYBODY loses. You can’t save money if you never had it in the first place.

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.

This incessant need by developers to garner tax kickbacks, rebates, subsidies, or whatever you call them reflects OKC's weakness as an emerging market. YES, other cities offer incentives BUT OKC does not appear to have the momentum economically to support large independent investments. To put it plainly, the OKC populous does not possess a very high per capita income with disposable incomes (keep losing manufacturing and that won't change anytime soon). I believe politics is a detriment to OK business growth. Without Tinker, OKC would basically be a government town. I point to this as a reason for poor airline service ( no money to fly anywhere and no reason (business reasons, significant entertainment reasons) to fly here.

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.
You said it yourself. TIF only comes from INCREASES in property tax. The baseline is left intact. The valuations that drive those increases are themselves driven by the proliferation of new development. One of the main reasons OKC continues to blow tax revenue projections out of the water is because of the renewed vitality, job growth and inbound sales tax dollars, in large part due to what has been happening downtown over the past quarter century. Pull the plug on all of that and see what happens.

You said it yourself. TIF only comes from INCREASES in property tax. The baseline is left intact. The valuations that drive those increases are themselves driven by the proliferation of new development. One of the main reasons OKC continues to blow tax revenue projections out of the water is because of the renewed vitality, job growth and inbound sales tax dollars, in large part due to what has been happening downtown over the past quarter century. Pull the plug on all of that and see what happens.

The huge majority of improvements downtown - both public and private - have not come from TIF.

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.

BINGO. This is my biggest beef. Our public schools are overall considered very sub par. Is there any way to calculate how much money the school systems have lost over the years with these handouts?

^

OKC TIF districts have already collected and spent over $1.2 billion in TIF and there is at least another $500 million obligated with more to come.

So take 70% of those numbers -- it's huge.

It would be flawed math to calculate it in this way because - again - a significant portion of the newly-realized revenue (the part that doesn’t go to schools, county etc) would never have been gained to begin with without the development energy that continues to be fostered by TIF. Including much of the sales (and property) tax growth throughout ALL of the city.

It would be flawed math to calculate it in this way because - again - a significant portion of the newly-realized revenue (the part that doesn’t go to schools, county etc) would never have been gained to begin with without the development energy that continues to be fostered by TIF. Including much of the sales (and property) tax growth throughout ALL of the city.

You and nobody else can prove that. It's the blanket "but for" argument that is used time and time again without hard data. And when a huge percentage of total spending downtown is done without TIF it doesn't hold up to even the most superficial scrutiny.

When you are talking about redirecting over a billion dollars in public funds - without public vote -- the burden of proof is on the group doing this, not the other way around.

There are good reasons TIF has been effectively banned in certain states and cities and that more and more implementations require a vote of the people. Yet, we continue to continually escalate these takes and awards, such as the huge percentage now virtually guaranteed this project.

You really run into an entire Freakonomics chapter when you dive into TIF. They should actually do an episode over TIF specifically, it would be an interesting story as there has been various studies on this subject in other cities.

I think it boils down to: quantifying the generated/moved dollars from a parcel that received TIF is difficult. You have a large array of economic impacts to take into account that isn't just X dollars generated by this property value before and after the TIF and pitting that against TIF dollars received.

Some easy ones off the top of my head:
Jobs created on that parcel.
Jobs created on surrounding parcels.
Sales tax generated on that parcel.
Sales tax generated on surrounding parcels.
Property tax of that parcel.
Property taxes of surrounding parcels.
Infrastructure considerations if people or businesses are moving to/from some outer area where infrastructure is spread-thin or more difficult to maintain.
City services [fire, police, trash. library] consideration if people or businesses are moving to/from the same.
Public education accessibility.

Also consider: The parcels within a TIF district being vacant, parking, abandoned structure, commercial, industrial, residential, etc. is all significant factors to take into account when analyzing this data for TIF approval as some are probably more acceptable than others.

And what about the timeline of quantifying the impacts of a particular TIF, where is the endpoint of added/removed value?

I think the bottom line is you can use a myriad of data to support both sides for or against TIF. But one thing I think most can agree on is there needs to be a more analytical approach and public input to the approval process than what is currently in place [in OKC].

Let's use this new Core to Shore TIF district to provide a specific example of how TIF is in no way shape or form 'free money'.

The district's boundaries were specifically gerrymandered to include BOK Park Plaza and its entire block along with hundreds of other acres. The C2S TIF (#13) started redirecting property tax in 2018, not coincidentally the year before BOK started paying the new tax rates based on the massive improvements made there. BTW, that project -- by far the largest in downtown since Devon Tower -- received zero TIF.

So let's do the math.

The base year for TIF #13 was 2018. BOK Park Plaza paid $51,992 that year.

Now, for the next 25 years, the difference between that amount and the taxes paid each and every of the next 25 years gets redirected for TIF use.

In 2019, the property tax shot up to $1,348,388 which means all but $51,992 of that went to the TIF district.

In 2022, that number had already risen to $1,551,268.

Assuming 5% increases (the max allowed by Oklahoma law unless a property is sold -- then that cap is blown off) here's what the calculations say will be taken from the schools and other taxing authorities throughout this TIF...

Ready??

$58,685,285.

And this is just one of several hundred properties within the TIF #13 district that will all be treated in the same way.



This is exactly how TIF #2 which covers most of downtown has resulted in $359,869,252 in TIF capture (with 2 years to run) when the original projection was $47 million. Just take all the increases over those 23 years from Leadership Square, BancFirst, Oklahoma Tower, Corporate Tower and everything else downtown that already existed or was built with zero TIF dollars.

As it stands, TIF #13 is projected to capture $395,000,000. You can bet it will end up being more than a BILLION itself and this is just one of 15 and counting TIF districts in the core.

How much do these developments increase tax collection from nearby properties that aren't in a TIF District over the course of 25 years? Are there examples where a TIF project was a catalyst for substantial non-TIF projects 5 to 15 years later or do they shuffle the deck each time another significant development is proposed? If so, do you see any examples where TIF increases sales tax collection, and tourism dollars spent? Is it all bad or just an inconsistent allocation of "goodies"?

^

TIF has been used for the Skirvin and First National and I doubt many would say that wasn't a good use of funds.

One example of a large TIF award really spurring surrounding development was the 21c in Film Row.


Nobody is saying TIF is always bad. My issue is the rampant and ever-escalating tax dollars being spent. TIF is supposed to be used to jump-start a blighted area.