they would not be ok with the form of transit that 99% of their customers use being banned from their street ..

There’s other streets. How familiar are you with Walker from south of the river to about Grand?

Yeah, going 100 to 0 on cars is not have you get transit up and running. It's how you get so much backlash, it is counterproductive.

You read my reply to Jose then, yeah?

no because none of them are true BRT ie they don't have their own lanes .. (except for a stops and some intersections)

Yeah, it’s neat to call it BRT but I’m not sure how much it will function like a true BRT, especially when cities like Bueno Aires exist as examples of what it could be. NW Exwy-Classen-downtown seems like it could be a natural fit (obviously the old interurban historically plays a role in how some of the city’s built up) for an efficient BRT/LRT that could actually benefit the population but it seems like it could still be 20+ years off before anything like that would come about with the way public transit is so far behind here.

One thing that might be interesting is possibly building LRT in the center of NW Exwy/Classen for longer rides and the BRT that’s being built now for short-to-intermediate routes. I don’t know, I’m probably thinking too far ahead for what OKC can support within the next decade or two, but it’s fun to think ahead and speculate about how the city might transform, especially with it being relatively small but growing at a pretty healthy rate right as there’s a resurgence in city living across North America.

they would not be ok with the form of transit that 99% of their customers use being banned from their street ..

Very much a fair point but id argue most of the businesses could be accessed by side streets. But as a compromise I would argue then just for walker from sw29th down to sw 59th be for busses only. and the rest of the route open for mixed traffic.

At Blackwelder utilities have been marked out, and they're staging traffic cones and such along the side of the road. Does this mean they're getting ready to start work on the BRT stops there?

At Blackwelder utilities have been marked out, and they're staging traffic cones and such along the side of the road. Does this mean they're getting ready to start work on the BRT stops there?

From Embark:

NW Expressway & Blackwelder Ave.
Phase: Waterline work
Traffic Control: The right lane of westbound NW Expressway will be closed at Blackwelder Ave. There will be two westbound lanes open during this time.
Estimated Construction Timeline: 2/20/23 – 3/24/23

I'm confused with what's happening with the Classen stops at 13th. Are the outside lanes being used exclusively for the stop, just at that point? Is this the only stop designed this way?

BRT-Lite

or really, what should be a typical bus stop but to OKC transit planners is something "fancy" and therefore it has to be labeled differently.

I'm confused with what's happening with the Classen stops at 13th. Are the outside lanes being used exclusively for the stop, just at that point? Is this the only stop designed this way?

If you look at the stop you can see what appears to be a by pass for a bicycle around the stop. I think the outside most east lane will be a bike lane between NW 10th and NW 13.

When the bus is stopped in the middle lane the north bound side of classen will be down to one lane. What do you see?

If you look at the stop you can see what appears to be a by pass for a bicycle around the stop. I think the outside most east lane will be a bike lane between NW 10th and NW 13.

When the bus is stopped in the middle lane the north bound side of classen will be down to one lane. What do you see?

I am pretty sure this is correct, except that I believe the bike lanes are going to stretch from NW 13th to NW 16th, rather than NW 10th to NW 13th. And looking back at Pete's screenshots in post #83 it does appear that this is the only stop which is being built in what was previously an existing lane of traffic, thereby taking the road down from three lanes each way to two lanes each way. From my experience frequently driving this stretch of Classen, two lanes each way is still more than enough capacity for approximately 23 hours per day. Especially given that I believe the outer lane will become a right-turn only lane at the NW 13th light going NB and the NW 16th light going SB, which should *hopefully* reduce problematic merges, though I've learned to never underestimate the ability of drivers in this city to not realize that a lane is ending until the last possible second.

I am pretty sure this is correct, except that I believe the bike lanes are going to stretch from NW 13th to NW 16th, rather than NW 10th to NW 13th. And looking back at Pete's screenshots in post #83 it does appear that this is the only stop which is being built in what was previously an existing lane of traffic, thereby taking the road down from three lanes each way to two lanes each way. From my experience frequently driving this stretch of Classen, two lanes each way is still more than enough capacity for approximately 23 hours per day. Especially given that I believe the outer lane will become a right-turn only lane at the NW 13th light going NB and the NW 16th light going SB, which should *hopefully* reduce problematic merges, though I've learned to never underestimate the ability of drivers in this city to not realize that a lane is ending until the last possible second.

I do believe it is standard across the world to utilize a lane until it ends... I think OKC has a problem with everyone getting into the one open lane and causing a very long and stand still line while the lane in question is open for while longer. I tend to feel like OKC drivers are more like ants

If you look at the stop you can see what appears to be a by pass for a bicycle around the stop. I think the outside most east lane will be a bike lane between NW 10th and NW 13.

When the bus is stopped in the middle lane the north bound side of classen will be down to one lane. What do you see?

I honestly wasn't sure what I was seeing. lol.

But the fact that the outer lanes will be bike lanes for a few blocks makes a little more sense. I was trying to figure out if the lane ended just at the stops, which seemed kind of abrupt to me, and I didn't realize the outer part was a bike lane. I watched the video on it, but I guess I couldn't really tell what I was seeing.


I am pretty sure this is correct, except that I believe the bike lanes are going to stretch from NW 13th to NW 16th, rather than NW 10th to NW 13th.

So, if that's the case, where is the merge point going north? I'm just wondering how far before the light traffic will need to move over.

Also, is southbound access to Western going away or will traffic cross in front of the stop to turn right onto Western.

Sorry if this is more obvious than I'm making it. It's kind of a goofy intersection to begin with and I don't think I've seen this done before.

It's kind of interesting that, in the video, it's explained away as "the outer lanes aren't used that much", which would seem to validate arguments for committing a lane to the BRT routes or some sort of BRT / HOV hybrid, at least along this part of Classen.

Especially given that I believe the outer lane will become a right-turn only lane at the NW 13th light going NB and the NW 16th light going SB, which should *hopefully* reduce problematic merges, .

Well, that answers one of my questions and makes this whole thing make a lot more sense to me.

I guess I should read the entire post before replying. Thanks for the information.

Isn't this also the intersection that the school/daycare is going to be built? I think their playground fence would be along Classen if I remember correctly.

Also, I think if you want to get on Western there, you would have to turn infront of Scooters. Isn't that little Western Ave snippet between 13st and that Alley going to be removed when OnCue eventually builds there? I think I remember OnCue beautifying that little triangular island in their plans.

Also, I think if you want to get on Western there, you would have to turn infront of Scooters. Isn't that little Western Ave snippet between 13st and that Alley going to be removed when OnCue eventually builds there? I think I remember OnCue beautifying that little triangular island in their plans.

It does look like that will get reworked, according to the pinkish sketching on this slide:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/brt10.jpg

That does say "to be design and constructed by others", but I imagine it's close. I'm not sure if the "others" have completed their assignment, yet.

That does say "to be design and constructed by others", but I imagine it's close. I'm not sure if the "others" have completed their assignment, yet.

FYI , here are Pete's comments with the OnCue building permit for that location. https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=31431&p=1191936#post1191936 ; https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=31431&p=1216303#post1216303

Thanks for the info and the links. I (obviously) hadn't really been following this and it definitely makes a lot more sense now. Appreciate it.

At Blackwelder they've poured the concrete for the pullout for the inbound bus. Doesn't look like they've started on the station part of the stop, but things are moving.

Also RIP flat traffic cone.

What is being built on vacant Landon NE corner of N Classen and 13th?

We need a taco bell on that corner.

What is being built on vacant Landon NE corner of N Classen and 13th?

We need a taco bell on that corner.

Primrose daycare.

What is being built on vacant Landon NE corner of N Classen and 13th?

We need a taco bell on that corner. Tu Quiras Taco Bell! Isn't there a bell less than a mile south?

On Classen and Reno.

On Classen and Reno.

Classen and Sheridan.

Curious about the north bound express bus stop at Classen and 13th. The inner lane is being taken out for a platform with the bus pulling in from Classen. So driving north on Classen the inner lane will stop at 13th, until passing the bus stop. Will the busses be able to load on drivers side? This seems to be a ‘different’ stop than other on Classen.

Curious about the north bound express bus stop at Classen and 13th. The inner lane is being taken out for a platform with the bus pulling in from Classen. So driving north on Classen the inner lane will stop at 13th, until passing the bus stop. Will the busses be able to load on drivers side? This seems to be a ‘different’ stop than other on Classen.

I dont understand what you are asking. Busses will load like normal on passenger side.

The NB Classen stop has the bike/sidewalk/multi-use lane on the east side of the bus platform (right-hand side when facing the NB direction). The bus platform is in the current right-most lane of three lanes. However, NB Classen will be generally reduced to three lanes until like 16th street with the right-most lane converted to bike and buffer.

The BRT stations north of 16th on Classen will be designed to allow for an additional 12' space behind the sidewalk to allow for future design of a bike lane or multi-use path.

I dont understand what you are asking. Busses will load like normal on passenger side.

The NB Classen stop has the bike/sidewalk/multi-use lane on the east side of the bus platform (right-hand side when facing the NB direction). The bus platform is in the current right-most lane of three lanes. However, NB Classen will be generally reduced to three lanes until like 16th street with the right-most lane converted to bike and buffer.

The BRT stations north of 16th on Classen will be designed to allow for an additional 12' space behind the sidewalk to allow for future design of a bike lane or multi-use path.
Thanks for the clarification, didn’t realize there would be a bike lane on east side of the stop. It will a learning curve having only one lane northbound on Classen when the bus is stopped.

First shelter has been installed on the NE corner of 63rd & Meridian.

Image from the Rapid FB page:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/brt051823a.jpg

All bus stops in OKC should look like this. :Smiley122

They look petty good. Looks much like the ones in Denver.

exactly, and tru BRT shelters should be longer/bigger.

Perhaps the shelter is sized to accommodate the number of riders projected to use BRT?

Perhaps the shelter is sized to accommodate the number of riders projected to use BRT?

Possibly, but then it just goes back to the point that this isn’t in line with what BRT is typically thought to be, at least starting out. I’m sure if/when EMBARK needs to expand service as ridership increases, they will order larger capacity buses and build larger shelters.

They look petty good. Looks much like the ones in Denver.

I’m not sure of the dimensions for the BRT shelters, but there are stops similar to this on busier routes in Oklahoma City. The elevated platform is the main difference between already existing stops and the new BRT stops. That and the dedicated passenger loading/unloading zones.

BRTs have large/long shelters, to accommodate crowds. That's the difference between mass/rapid transit and local bus. An example is below:

18030

I do agree with the platform being the main difference; but Putting in a "normal" shelter at that location doesn't indicate confidence in OKC being a mass transit city, IMO.

Really disappointed to see such basic infrastructure and branding compared to Spokane's new BRT. Spokane is 1/3 the size of OKC but has more than three times the daily bus ridership.

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OKC just has zero concept of what real transit is and how to build it. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to send a team of people to somewhere that builds good ridership or hire a consultant from Argentina or Columbia on how to build real BRT.

OKC just has zero concept of what real transit is and how to build it. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to send a team of people to somewhere that builds good ridership or hire a consultant from Argentina or Columbia on how to build real BRT.

It's a money issue, not a lack of knowledge or care.

We've had next to nothing for over 70 years. Try to be grateful for progress instead of expecting perfection.


If ridership is good on this first line, there will be more to come. If not, then don't blame the city for not spending more.

It's a money issue, not a lack of knowledge or care.

We've had next to nothing for over 70 years. Try to be grateful for progress instead of expecting perfection.


If ridership is good on this first line, there will be more to come. If not, then don't blame the city for not spending more.
I don’t think it’s fair to say I should be grateful because I disagree with how comically bad this BRT line is. But to your point about it, not being lack of knowledge, I agree there because the city apparently knew this wasn’t anywhere close to being actual BRT so they re-branded it simply as rapid.

I’m not grateful, nor am I happy to see this project, and I only hate it a little bit less than the street car. I know I’m over simplifying things, but had the city spent the money on the street car or at least part of it on this to do it right and whatever would be left over on the rest of the bus system, it would be much better.

But I am very skeptical. The city truly cares about building real quality transit versus trying to build as much as they can, with what little money they have. I’d rather spend more on one quality project and have less transit lines, than have more transit lines that don’t function as well.

And you also comment about ridership being a determining factor as to whether or not they invest more but that directly ties into why it should’ve been done right the first time which has been proven in other cities that people will use alternative transit when it’s built right. So if the city builds a half assed, BRT line, and ridership is less than optimal then that is not a fair judgment call.

And really Pete, just for starters, how much more extra money would have been to repaint a lane of Classen red so people know it’s only a bus lane? And then they built bus pull outs, so car traffic flows while buses are picking up passengers. While this is good for the flow of automobile traffic, it also increases travel times due to the fact the bus will now have to wait until a break of traffic to re-enter the road.

Now with Northwest Expressway, I would be opposed to removing any car lanes. But I would like to see a center running BRT line which would cost a lot of money. However, the city could’ve done that in a later phase and just built the basic version removing a lane on Classen and not building bus pull outs. We’re having this weird jigg jagged route through the hospital complex by Hefner Parkway.

Now with Northwest Expressway, I would be opposed to removing any car lanes.

I'm generally for BRT and rapid transit, and you do have to start somewhere. I get it. But if they're really going to remove a lane of NW Expressway, it's going to be insanely bad. That used to be my commute and as it stands, traffic gets very backed up at peak times. Taking a lane away would be absurd.

I'm with you Panda. Build it correctly or don't build it all. Being happy for a poorly designed system versus nothing at all is what gave us the streetcar, and it is infinitely more difficult to sell the public on fixing or expanding a broken transit system. I even hate that they used the term BRT when they are implementing nothing more than a limited stop bus route.

This is another mass transit idea that is going set us back another 10 years.

^^^ if this issue is truly about money then break the project up into phases. As annoyed as I get by phased approaches I’d rather have those than doing it all at once at the expense of lesser quality end product.

I would’ve been much happier if this project just was on Classen from downtown to NWE and done right with a future extension up NWE when the money can be found.

Really disappointed to see such basic infrastructure and branding compared to Spokane's new BRT. Spokane is 1/3 the size of OKC but has more than three times the daily bus ridership.

18038

18040

Not sure why this is surprising to you. Oklahoma is a state in which public transit is considered something for poor people only. Fortunately, our city is beginning to take major steps to change that thinking.

Really disappointed to see such basic infrastructure and branding compared to Spokane's new BRT. Spokane is 1/3 the size of OKC but has more than three times the daily bus ridership.

18038

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spokane's is actually BRT OKC's is not ..

and your pop numbers are misleading at best ... (more likely disingenuous)

spokane is basically 1/10 the size of OKC

and spokane has 3,300 a sq Mile OKC has 1,100 a sq mile .. 3 times the density ..

Having traveled and lived in places where public transit is a fact of life even for the upper middle class and above, I am becoming more and more convinced that effective transit is quite a ways off owing mainly to the way the city developed from 1930 to 1980 more so than how it has developed from 1980 to 2030...not that 1980 - 2010 helped at all, but OKC does not have really any major win route to create. An unbelievably well thought out, well publicized, and ludicrously well funded system is necessary for any shot of utilization.

And by ludicrously well funded, I mean Embark funding would need to balloon from ~$45M annually to ~$200M annually. Even that is no guarantee of success.

3 things KILL transit in this city.

1. Parking minimums. Forget investing in comprehensive transit until we do away with these requirements, minimum inside the Grand Loop and more realistically, inside the Kirkpatrick Turnpike loop. This is a double whammy that cuts density off at the knees and incentivizes owning/using a car.

2. Cost of living. Car Ownership/Driving is not cheap anywhere, but here is about as cheap as it gets and largely because #1 creates zero incentive for parking to be a real cost at play and because you don't lose hundreds of gallons of gas per year sitting in slow/stand still traffic.

3. You can get anywhere in the metro pretty quickly with a car. When we went back to Buenos Aires a few years ago, my Mom was hoping we would take some time to go see the daughter (and her husband) of one of my Mom's closest friends. They were located approximately 5 miles away from us and we genuinely were not sure until the last moments that we would actually be able to coordinate a meet up with them. 6 miles away and the stars had to align for us to see each other. While some of that owed to just pure scheduling, I cannot express enough how much of a nightmare it is to.coordinate the logistics on top of that.

Indeed, we ended up.making the meeting happen, but the best anecdote from that story comes as we departed. My wife and I had rented a car, and offered to take them back to their place a whole 3 miles away from our half way meeting point. They declined on account that it would take them ~25 minutes to get home using public transit rather than the 40-60 it would take of we drove them...3 miles.

-----------------

There's not a world where the most perfectly designed transit system is solving any real world problems for any significant percentage of the population of this metro area. Because of that, the quality of life increase is marginal at best.

EVEN STILL, I support BRT because it's the first move we have made in transit to bring any part of our system into the 21st century. It might be on life support, but that is genuinely better than dead. Right now, it can at least fine the occasional seat at the table. Otherwise, transit won't even be an afterthought and we will continue to allow crazy parking minimums alongside generally undense development. Sometime within the next 5 years, some resident downtown is going to take BRT to Oak, enjoy the night, and return on BRT and tell their friends what a great experience that was. THAT is what will begin to change the conversation.

The real issue is the location of any win route. Do you really see the city building a route on S 44th Steet? How about MLK? Or even a S. Walker route that branches off to OCCC. What would the reaction be if there was a 23rd street from MLK to say Portland. Or even a 10th street route from say OU Medical Center to OSU-OKC. The city is really only interested in what looks not serving routes that work. The city currently wont even make most routes with say 15 minute frequencies in peak times that's not even a big deal or anything. Embark isn't serious public transit and this isn't even comparing it to similar sized cities that do take public transit serious world wide. As long as leadership doesn't care and a significant amount of people in the city have the mindset of "No one lives over there" in regards to walkable areas that are underserved by transit. This will not change.

What problem is BRT trying to solve in OKC? Routes to the suburban fringe only encourage more sprawl. It is almost like the City has Dissociative Identity Disorder and it needs to decide which of its personalities it wants to be. It is still trying be everything to everyone by walking the line between sprawl and density. Just pick one and get on with it.

The real issue is the location of any win route. Do you really see the city building a route on S 44th Steet? How about MLK? Or even a S. Walker route that branches off to OCCC.

Yes, because they're literally in the planning stages for doing basically exactly what you described. (Source: https://twitter.com/shawn_dubs/status/1654307559405244417)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvVG7pcXgAELqDv?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvVHMSrWcAAoq7m?format=jpg&name=large

What problem is BRT trying to solve in OKC? Routes to the suburban fringe only encourage more sprawl. It is almost like the City has Dissociative Identity Disorder and it needs to decide which of its personalities it wants to be. It is still trying be everything to everyone by walking the line between sprawl and density. Just pick one and get on with it.

NW Expressway at Meridian is hardly at the "suburban fringe." Geez. And, it is a commuter route by design, so I don't see the issue.

Yes, because they're literally in the planning stages for doing basically exactly what you described. (Source: https://twitter.com/shawn_dubs/status/1654307559405244417)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvVG7pcXgAELqDv?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvVHMSrWcAAoq7m?format=jpg&name=large

This is very interesting, thank you for posting it.

Public meetings will soon be held to determine alignments for additional “BRT” lines:

https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/economy/okc-seeks-community-input-on-maps-4-embark-system/?back=super_blog

Problem is no regional transit authority for the bus system. Suburbs want nothing to do with buses because they think it brings poor people to their city. Our transit can never grow till we get rid of that mindset.

Public meetings will soon be held to determine alignments for additional “BRT” lines:

https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/economy/okc-seeks-community-input-on-maps-4-embark-system/?back=super_blog

Exciting. I recently asked a city council person what the timeline is for additional routes and unfortunately they are years away. That's because the funding source, MAPS, requires pay as you go.

This system would really increase adoption and usage if these routes came online at roughly the same time.

Problem is no regional transit authority for the bus system. Suburbs want nothing to do with buses because they think it brings poor people to their city. Our transit can never grow till we get rid of that mindset.

We do have an RTA, it's just not fully activated yet. But it's happening.

Problem is no regional transit authority for the bus system. Suburbs want nothing to do with buses because they think it brings poor people to their city. Our transit can never grow till we get rid of that mindset.





https://img.masstransitmag.com/files/base/cygnus/mass/image/2022/06/16x9/EMBARK_BRTgrndbreaking.62bc616e7b167.png?auto=form at,compress&w=1050&h=590&fit=clip

From left to right: Oklahoma City Councilperson James Cooper, Trustee Bernard Semtner III, Mayor David Holt, FTA Administrator Gail Lyssy, Assistant City Manager and EMBARK Administrator Jason Ferbrache.
BRT groundbreaking ceremony.

These are the folks who should encourage the use of BRT and public transit. They could do this by actually using the system.

Problem is no regional transit authority for the bus system. Suburbs want nothing to do with buses because they think it brings poor people to their city. Our transit can never grow till we get rid of that mindset.

Interesting. Where is that survey? I’ve lived in suburbs here for 40 years and never heard anyone express that opinion. Have your friends told this is their opinion?

Explain why there is no bus service in Moore. Also explain why the Rte 5 goes around Nicholas hills and the village but not thru it.

Explain why there is no bus service in Moore. Also explain why the Rte 5 goes around Nicholas hills and the village but not thru it.

moore doesn't see it as a need ..

Nicholas hills doesn't want any bus service ..

moore doesn't see it as a need ..

Nicholas hills doesn't want any bus service ..
Moore actually does see a need as it has said it will explore operating its own bus service after it pulled out of the RTA plan. Bus service in Nichols Hills makes absolutely zero sense.

I know a few people who live in Moore who said the city wants to keep out undesirables and that's why there no bus service.

Also it makes no sense to go around Nicholas hills or the village when a bus could go straight up penn. Also I'd moore has its own bus service it defeats the purpose of a rta. A rta is all the cities working together as one for transportation. Edmond having its own bus service doesn't make any sense neither does moore exploring the possibility. It just balkanizes the area even moore