guys, everybody's desires will be solved with the implementation of this BRT.

1) Speeds will naturally decrease due to the ever present busses, increased pedestrians, and likely lower speed limits. also note that BRT will have signal priority and there's several mid-block crossings with signal - also slowing traffic overall.

2) Slowing traffic WILL increase delays on Classen and probably NW Expressway (to a lesser degree, but still). Luckily, since both are 6 lane highways (not freeways Panda) then there is already capacity.

3) While the 15-minute trip time may be seen as not an improvement, but that can be revised with more buses added if necessary as well as the promotion of the network that you can 'ride, relax, and leave the driving to Transit.' Along with the not having to park downtown. ..

it may take awhile and need promotion but it should promote folks along the corridor to give up or not use their cars as much.

4) As ridership increases hopefully Embark will do the right thing and have local bus added to feed the BRT. This will enable neighborhood and amenity attraction without having a door-to-door stop at EVERY location along the way. Folks will just have to get used to living in a big city, walking to a stop and/or transferring is a way of life but the city does need to accommodate local/feeder lines and I believe BRT will force them to do so.

5) Park N Ride may not ever be fully utilized at the Penn Square location but it would be foolish not to have one. Penn Square is one of the city's top destinations, add in Oak and a possible revitalized 50 Penn Place galleria and you have a true regional destination that you wouldn't ignore transit wise just because there are existing parking. .. The Lake Hefner Park N Ride makes the most sense overall since it WOULD cut down overall commute for folks living NW.

6) I assume this BRT will be extremely successful and would eventually be extended to Piedmont/Yukon - which would truly enable it to be a commute option. I agree that having the first terminus at Lake Hefner is probably short sighted but I think they did so to encourage/promote the use of Park N Ride rather than (again) having a front-door BRT for folks living in the outer loop suburban area.

7) The success of this BRT will feed the implementation of others. I presume lessons will be learned and other planned routes will be revised to facilitate a transit network. IMO, some of the other routes look just like a local bus with frequency upgrades.

BRT needs to be corridor specific and needs less (not more) stops to be successful. it is the implementation of the backbone COMBINED with local/feeder routes that make commuter and rapid transit lines successful so the transit moves on rather than stop at every point along the way (which is what local does/should do).


One thing I hope to eventually see in OKC (along with BRT implementation in dense areas) is Commuter Bus in corridors not planned for rail. We need true commuter routes (park n ride in the suburbs feeding non-stop bus into downtown) during rush hours in order for transit to truly be a 'thing'. This would resolve the trip duration issue plaguing the existing system and provide a REAL option for folks coming into the city.

Commuter Bus would be similar to Commuter Rail (planned N-S and to MWC) but cheaper and faster to implement. Switchover to rail could be justified once ridership is built by Commuter Bus.We could even implement Commuter Bus in the rail corridors to jump-start the route and get people comfortable with 'commuting'. Again, this is not BRT (which is rapid transit along dense population nodes), Commuter Bus is MASS transit where like Commuter Rail you connect suburban nodes to downtown en mass with very few if any stops.

what happened to my formatting? fixed it. ..

So I'm assuming that at Expressway and Classen, BRT is going to get a green light in the far right (East) lane and will turn left across the intersection with the "queue jumping" and everyone else on red? If they have to get over to the left lane from 42nd, it's going to be a bad time during rush hour, precisely because of the speeds people drive this road at.

Yes they say as much in the video

Watched the video of the COTPA meeting. It's strange to me that there was no mention at all of the Independence x NW Expy intersection. They had a lot of material on this intersection in their original planning document. They had even thrown out the idea of a pedestrian bridge at one point.

Similar to Penn x NW Expy (where NWBRT actually is adding sidewalks), the intersection at Independence is currently unnavigable by foot or bike... as in literally no crossing whatsoever. If unaddressed, the lack of connecting infrastructure would severely restrict access to the bus station for anyone in surrounding neighborhoods. I live a quarter mile north of this intersection and wouldn't be able to access the station as it is planned.

Interesting though - I did find in the Better Streets project list that there's just under a million dollars of allocated funds for intersection improvements at Indep x NW Expy to begin in summer of 2022. Also, more vague and with no planned start date yet: "Bike Lanes: On NW Grand Blvd. and N. Independence Ave. to connect to the Bert Cooper Trails". Perhaps there is some coordination going on here?

Might be related to the work going on right now to connect bert cooper with the under construction greenway trail.

16729

BRT Town Hall on Thursday at 12p and 5:30p

https://twitter.com/EMBARKOK/status/1374010736712822790

It seems like we aren’t even getting articulated busses. This project is an absolute, calling it bus rapid transit. BRT mainly uses articulated vehicles, dedicated lanes, and other bus specific infrastructure. This will be none of those things other than maybe signal prioritization and enhanced shelters/stops which isn’t saying a lot. It is basically enhanced bus service.

https://freepressokc.com/embark-officials-show-new-bus-rapid-transit-plans-in-virtual-town-hall/

It seems like we aren’t even getting articulated busses. This project is an absolute, calling it bus rapid transit. BRT mainly uses articulated vehicles, dedicated lanes, and other bus specific infrastructure. This will be none of those things other than maybe signal prioritization and enhanced shelters/stops which isn’t saying a lot. It is basically enhanced bus service.

https://freepressokc.com/embark-officials-show-new-bus-rapid-transit-plans-in-virtual-town-hall/

Agree, although the articulated buses are probably the least important issue...

Agree, although the articulated buses are probably the least important issue...
You’re not wrong but that was just the straw that made me decide all of this.

yet another great idea that has been Okie-doked.

OKC has had MANY peer cities to learn from yet we continue to think small time and implement just at the breaking point of legitimacy. Drives me crazy!!! Since this thing was approved they've had years to look at other cities, possibly get discount(s) on bus orders in tandem with other cities, and plan for the future. BRT doesn't work without frequent buses with CAPACITY preferably in their own ROW particularly in the urban/congested sections with real park n rides in the hinterlands. Otherwise, we just have a new bus route with fancy stops.

Can we ever think big and implement something grand, ala Devon Tower? And even that was Okie-Doked; down from it's planned height. WRWA another excellent example, can't build the entire building now just Okie doke it so we can pour more dollars in later. ...

I think it's time this city is run by planners who get out to benchmark other cities' successes rather than engineers who are too overly concerned about whether Oklahoman's can navigate a roundabout.

I'm sure everybody involved knows exactly what's wrong with this plan and are doing the best they can. They also know there's not enough courage in the city to make big choices regarding this kind of infrastructure (for example, we know half the council would in no way vote to eliminate a lane of NW Expway so it can be a dedicated bus lane, they would never hear the end of it).

and yet it still will take them $30M to purchase the same 40 foot buses that we already have to stop at streetcar stops along existing city streets. ... I think that could be implemented with half of that and sooner than 3-5 years, double the funding (via the federal govt) and I'd expect a line that really goes somewhere (like say, downtown to Piedmont, providing a real connection to residents all along the way) with articulated or double floor buses. ..

Nope - let's Okie Doke it instead, we can't give the people of OKC the infrastructure other cities have; they will then demand it for everything.

yet another great idea that has been Okie-doked.

OKC has had MANY peer cities to learn from yet we continue to think small time and implement just at the breaking point of legitimacy. Drives me crazy!!! Since this thing was approved they've had years to look at other cities, possibly get discount(s) on bus orders in tandem with other cities, and plan for the future. BRT doesn't work without frequent buses with CAPACITY preferably in their own ROW particularly in the urban/congested sections with real park n rides in the hinterlands. Otherwise, we just have a new bus route with fancy stops.

Can we ever think big and implement something grand, ala Devon Tower? And even that was Okie-Doked; down from it's planned height. WRWA another excellent example, can't build the entire building now just Okie doke it so we can pour more dollars in later. ...

I think it's time this city is run by planners who get out to benchmark other cities' successes rather than engineers who are too overly concerned about whether Oklahoman's can navigate a roundabout.

Devon Tower is a far cry from grand. The owners can not even perform routine repairs in a timely fashion.
Okie dokie.

and yet it still will take them $30M to purchase the same 40 foot buses that we already have to stop at streetcar stops along existing city streets. ... I think that could be implemented with half of that and sooner than 3-5 years, double the funding (via the federal govt) and I'd expect a line that really goes somewhere (like say, downtown to Piedmont, providing a real connection to residents all along the way) with articulated or double floor buses. ..

Nope - let's Okie Doke it instead, we can't give the people of OKC the infrastructure other cities have; they will then demand it for everything.

It sounds like you should take your complaints to the (apparent) majority opinions of the residents of OKC sprawl rather than the planners trying to make this work. Shawn is right -- it's not that the planners don't know anything about BRT, but you try removing a lane from Classen or NW Expwy and see what happens. Weren't there people even on this site, which I think tends to be more pro-urbanization than the average resident, claiming Classen faced major congestion and we could never consider removing a lane for bikes or buses? Not to mention the stigma that buses have in OKC. Ask residents of suburban NW OKC whether they'd prefer to take a bus or their own car to work and see what the majority say. I've heard it myself many times. Better infrastructure might help convince them otherwise, but these attitudes are prevalent and IMO are more likely to limit the success of this project than the lack of articulated buses....

Frankly, I want this project to work as much as anyone (I live right along the route and feel invested), but with ONLY 10-15 minute headways I'm not sure I'd be in support of removing a lane either. Now if we could actually get something like 2-3 minute frequencies then yes, I'd want a dedicated lane. But having a lane sit completely empty for 14.5 out of every 15 minutes? To me the issue is simply needing many more buses, something I think could, in theory, be a possibility if the route is successful. Maybe that hope will be proven to be naive...

So add a lane. The median on NWE is incredibly wide. I don’t think you’d run into the same resistance removing a lane on Classen. Removing a lane on NWE is not a good thing and shouldn’t be done.

Classen should be narrowed to 4 lanes with protected cycle and bus lanes. A few overpasses should also be built for busses and possibly even cars to use for a toll.

Classen should be narrowed to 4 lanes with protected cycle and bus lanes. Thousand times yes, this.

Thousand times yes, this.
We also need many more pedestrian crosswalks that are raised to calm traffic.

I was in Houston yesterday, and it was both nice and sad to see what BRT could have been here:

https://i.imgur.com/QX4ra8R.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/AEdFS4Z.jpg?1

Dedicated center lanes, articulated buses, dedicated signaling, nice stations...

First, ours hasn't even been built yet and you are referring to "what might have been here". LOL

Second, it strikes me there is NOBODY there.

Yes indeed Houston has a model BRT system. Been there, seen most of its transit and believe me their vices for driving around in the city really temps one to use BRT. Imagine a city with a huge CBD skyline and several more skylines comparable to OKC, Tulsa and Little Rock.

OKC BRT has an adequate system covering the needs of our city. The few times I have had an opportunity to ride Embark, it covers a good portion of the city. It takes planning if you ever decide to use the bus. Times I have taken my vehicle to S. W. 74th for service and instead of using dealer courtesy driver service, I've explored use of the bus. There are always some interesting characters on the bus who sometimes challenge the patience of the driver as well as bus patrons. Anyway, that's a whole difference story.

Embark can take you within the basic inner city from North Britton to S.W 74th with the use of transfers. OKC is not as dense as Houston or Dallas; nor does our ridership come close to their numbers.

Most people here are dependent on motor vehicle transportation; but if you ever get the chance, ride Embark.

I would be okay if we did ours like Grand Rapids has done, which is they took a four lane road and the outside lanes are bus only, BUT, only during rush hour, so there are lanes that are marked bus only, but there are a lot of signs as well that say "Bus Only 7am-10am, 4-6pm" etc.

wont OKC have dedicated outside bus only lanes?

I think the issue is that the lanes aren't restricted line Houston's, not that they wont be marked. ..

FWIW, we have "BRT" here in the Seattle Tacoma area too and there are NO markings, no dedicated lanes. So now just imagine how successful it is (or could be).

I didn't go to the most recent (I think virtual this time) meeting, but the last one I went to there seemed to be some hesitancy to committing to dedicated lanes of any sort.

wont OKC have dedicated outside bus only lanes?

I think the issue is that the lanes aren't restricted line Houston's, not that they wont be marked. ..

FWIW, we have "BRT" here in the Seattle Tacoma area too and there are NO markings, no dedicated lanes. So now just imagine how successful it is (or could be).

no the dedicated "lanes" are only at the intersections

That's right, and the bus will get the signal first so it can beat that traffic.

You can add in dedicated lanes after the fact and where it makes most sense. No need really to do it on Classen as traffic counts aren't really high enough and congestion not bad enough that it would be necessary. Not sure the same could be said of NWX Westbound from May and onward and Eastbound inward to May during rushour.

fair point

I think as long as the bus has dedicated lanes at/near the stops and signal priority it should be ok to start - pretty much the same as the "BRT" we have here (which has no dedicated lanes, btw). The big difference between us is our buses are articulated which I thought was the standard for BRT.

maybe OKC can try out the 40' bus and change them to articulated later once ridership builds. But everywhere else I've seen BRT implemented they started with articulated so that you could accommodate any loads and expand capacity introducing more buses as needed.

The only thing I worry about with OKC's launch is the stops likely will be built for 40' so to expand to much longer 60' articulated (and longer) we'll have to reinvent the wheel so to say. Hopefully the stops OKC implements will be long enough for future buses + dedicated entry/exit (at least) + signal priority throughout and it will be a success.

BTW - for those who don't understand signal priority, it means the bus has its own dedicated traffic light that switches while all other traffic is stopped. This allows the bus to do whatever it wants/needs including making a left turn from the far right or a left into the far right for a stop, so on. All other traffic stopped is the key, while the bus makes its moves.

The only downside I can see though is if there are not dedicated bus lane at the entrance to a traffic light then there will be vehicles ahead of the bus, rendering the priority signal useless. ....

something to consider EMBARK!!! BRT will fail if it's not frequent and fast. ...

In my hometown of grand rapids, mi they just got a articulated bus for their second brt the laker line before that on their silver line they just used regular buses soot not essential to have articulated buses for brt. Also even if we did we don't have high enough ridership for articulated buses who is riding the bus past Belle isle most people who would need to go down northwest expressway would need to go past meridian all the jobs and apartments are up to council

I’m not comparing OKC to Grand Rapids. I’m using peer cities.

What makes Grand Rapids not a peer city? With a kid living there now, I go frequently and it's not too far off in a lot of ways.

I’m not comparing OKC to Grand Rapids. I’m using peer cities.

MSA:
Grand Rapids - 1,077,370
Oklahoma City - 1,408,950
CSA:
Grand Rapids - 1,412,470
Oklahoma City - 1,481,542

Looks pretty similar.

MSA is the designator, not a peer for OKC but is for Tulsa.

so maybe I should explain what I mean by peer city,.

OKC is the largest city and MSA in its state, peer cities would be also. OKC is the capital city in its state, peer cities would be also. OKC is the largest economic generator of the state, peer cities would be also. OKC has over 1.425M in it's metro from 2020 census estimate (likely more than 1.5M CSA), peer cities would have that up to roughly 2M-3M ish. OKC is a large area city limit, peer cities might also. OKC is in the South Central US, peer cities would be also or in neighboring states.

It's not JUST about population, it's about how the city acts, behaves, aspires, ranks, compares. Peer cities have things in common so it's easier to compare them.

No offense to Grand Rapids but it's not a peer of OKC. Nashville, however, IS a natural peer of OKC, as is Denver.

For not a peer city they're doing better than us in some ways transit wise

For not a peer city they're doing better than us in some ways transit wise
It helps being in close influence to cities like Chicago that have huge metro systems for a little of it to rub off. Oklahoma legislature has shown time and time again they are absolutely clueless and all talk about real transit. Lately there has been a few progressive developments for mass and active transit in Oklahoma that I’m sure you’re aware of it so hopefully it gets better.

There are MANY American cities waaaaaay smaller than OKC that have what would be considered world class transit networks when compared to ours. OKCs transit system is comical. The streetcar did nothing to help either. Imagine how good our bus system would be if that money was pumped into it instead.

Maybe. It's a 3 hr drive from Chi to GR. Kinda like saying DFW rubs off on us.

Maybe. It's a 3 hr drive from Chi to GR. Kinda like saying DFW rubs off on us.
DFW definitely rubs off on OKC IMO.

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?
The vibes of the city are something I just can’t explain. But GR is a part of a state that has more experience with mass transit. I’m honestly not sure what we’re debating at this point. I just feel as if there are more transit options in Michigan and that is due to the government there being more willing than Oklahoma to back it.

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt

Agreed, #1 thing is fast/timely etc. As a city bus regular -- and I said this to as many embark folks as I could during the public meetings -- it CANNOT be the exact same experience as the current bus system or it will fail.

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt
Most BRT systems around the world seem to have several things:

Dedicated lanes, articulated busses, larger shelters/stops, less frequent stops than local, and signal prioritization. Of course there are anomalies but NWE BRT should have articulated busses IMO

Um, I rode the Silver line in LA back in 2019 and it was not articulated. It's BRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Line_(Los_Angeles_Metro).

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?

shawn, DFW has only recently embraced transit and even now it's not even close to the level of Chicago or big cities in the north. Ditto Houston. Are there any cities in the region that are huge on transit?

Most BRT systems around the world seem to have several things:

Dedicated lanes, articulated busses, larger shelters/stops, less frequent stops than local, and signal prioritization. Of course there are anomalies but NWE BRT should have articulated busses IMO

+1. Guys, our though comes from having been or traveled to other cities worldwide. OKC is spending good money on BRT so they should implement the core tenants of BRT that Panda mentioned. BRT in OKC will FAIL if people decide to give it a try but have to wait for the next bus - if every 40' bus that comes by is packed full. Just the same way as some argue the Streetcar is failing due to it not having a honeymoon period, no dual trackage, no destinations in "working class" neighborhoods.

All Im saying is we should plan big. I could go along with the lack of bus lanes for now but to implement a system with the same existing 40' bus. .. what makes it different than the current system, other than its route. BRT is suppose to be different than normal local or commuter bus transit; BRT is high frequency, high capacity bridging just below a light rail system. IMO, OKC's implementation so far sounds like a local route that should have been implemented long ago.

Um, I rode the Silver line in LA back in 2019 and it was not articulated. It's BRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Line_(Los_Angeles_Metro).
I am familiar with the silver line. I’m not sure if this has anything to do with it but the DTLA terminus has some tight corners. Currently metro is planning a short extension of the elevated 110 express lanes to tie into Figueroa IIRC. It is a horrible downgrade from the planned express lanes to Union Station. LA metro has become extremely anti car lately and I hope with all my passion that completely changes.

With that being said I clearly stated that in most cases, at least the ones I’m familiar with BRT is articulated and that is true from most examples I’ve seen out of the country listing the variables I mentioned. Exceptions always exist. I’d rather look to Columbia, Argentina, and a few SW Asian countries on how to build BRT right than LA. LAs strong point comes from its local bus service which I believe has the highest ridership in the nation.

+1. Guys, our though comes from having been or traveled to other cities worldwide. OKC is spending good money on BRT so they should implement the core tenants of BRT that Panda mentioned. BRT in OKC will FAIL if people decide to give it a try but have to wait for the next bus - if every 40' bus that comes by is packed full. Just the same way as some argue the Streetcar is failing due to it not having a honeymoon period, no dual trackage, no destinations in "working class" neighborhoods.

All Im saying is we should plan big. I could go along with the lack of bus lanes for now but to implement a system with the same existing 40' bus. .. what makes it different than the current system, other than its route. BRT is suppose to be different than normal local or commuter bus transit; BRT is high frequency, high capacity bridging just below a light rail system. IMO, OKC's implementation so far sounds like a local route that should have been implemented long ago.
If we didn’t waste our money on the streetcar we could have easily accomplished all of this and had money for NWE BRT and beefed up local bus service.

shawn, DFW has only recently embraced transit and even now it's not even close to the level of Chicago or big cities in the north. Ditto Houston. Are there any cities in the region that are huge on transit?

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.
Yet given all of that the system is complete an utter joke compared to cities like Chicago. Admittedly I’ve never been to Grand Rapids but looking at the satellite view the city appears much smaller than OKC and I’d have to imagine the commuting patterns and lifestyle must be different. People in Chicago commuter much longer distances than OKC. I’d like to see how far away the cities are that make up the CSA. I’ve always felt OKC should have or is close to expanding its CSA influence.

IIRC, Dallas has added Oklahoma cities into its CMSA. Dallas is also on the cusp of more transit lines with HSR/Hyperloop being studied between Fort Worth and Dallas. HSR between Houston and Dallas. A new partial orbital heavy rail line. A few small extensions of current LRT lines. A new LRT transit tunnel in downtown. Dallas is certainly way ahead of OKC though OKC is behind GR as you mentioned as I’ve seen multiple projects in GR for expanded bus and transit systems.

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.

shawn, DFW is ahead of us. But DFW is NOT a transit oriented metro as it's just recently joined the club. 25 years is not old particularly given the population size of it and Houston. That suburb/freeway culture has rubbed off on OKC.

Compare to Grand Rapids has Chicago AND Detroit (and Cleveland nearby, others) which have are Transit oriented and have been for a long time (forever in Chicago's case). So weekend visits to those cities rub off on you so that you have a transit educated populous that demands "something" in their city. Honestly this is the main reason why I said they weren't necessarily a peer to OKC; not the largest city in their state, not the capital, better transit culture/populous compared to OKC.

which also proves another point, a smaller city has better transit than OKC. Something we can definitely learn from but I'd look to peers (Denver, Indy, Nashville, even Dallas/Houston in some respects/being "late" to the club) on implementing ours.

.The only downside I can see though is if there are not dedicated bus lane at the entrance to a traffic light then there will be vehicles ahead of the bus, rendering the priority signal useless. ....

My impression (which could be wrong) is that signal prioritization wasn't going to include shutting down the entire intersection for the bus but rather the bus sending a signal to the light ahead to turn green (at least for most intersections without turns), but that it would otherwise drive normally in the lane. That way cars ahead of it would benefit and get to proceed along with the bus, but wouldn't block it.

My question is who is going to be riding a articulated bus we can't even fill up a 40ft bus now. Also unless they make some changes the route 5 goes thru pretty much the same route leaving the terminal and there is not much to go to between Belle isle and meridian so i dont see to many riders. Not if it went to council it would be different

Probably the biggest draws will be Penn Square, Oak, and the hospital. I also agree it should go farther than Meridian and expressed that during public meetings. It should go all the way to the turnpike for park/ride users. Regarding route 5, there will only be a few BRT stops on Classen, I think they're going to convert some Rt 5 stops to BRT elevated stops, but I didn't compare the stops side-by side, so maybe they were just stopping in some of the same places.

I mean route 8 goes to Penn Square and route 7 goes to the hospital. I think they need to figure this out better a brt from either Norman or uco would be better served in my opinion

You're not wrong about route selection problems.

And yes, I've taken 7/8. Hoping the two BRTs in MAPS 4 will be more of a value add.

My question is who is going to be riding a articulated bus we can't even fill up a 40ft bus now. Also unless they make some changes the route 5 goes thru pretty much the same route leaving the terminal and there is not much to go to between Belle isle and meridian so i dont see to many riders. Not if it went to council it would be different

exactly my point, you need to be different to attract ridership. Nobody's going to ride an existing 40' bus when it also doesnt even have true signal priority come to find out and doesn't hit the populated areas in the NW (for true park n ride). ...

Hate to say it - this is once again setting up for failure all around. EMBARK should really look at peer cities (DENVER) to benchmark how it's done vs. continually driving "worker class" transit down our throats. ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dutvxy15O8

The second half of this video has some updated NW BRT information.