New arena will be needed; probably the last item to be built on the ballot sometime after 2026.

If a new arena is on the ballot; city could build a much better structure on city owned land than the initial $89 million budgeted for The Peake--hope it doesn't exclude ice hockey.

How about some minor renovations to the Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark or completely renovate it as a soccer specific stadium and build a $75 million baseball venue on the riverfront?

Hmm, replacing the ballpark with a soccer stadium might be interesting, but never would happen.

Hmm, replacing the ballpark with a soccer stadium might be interesting, but never would happen.

Didn't say replace the ballpark; renovate. It wouldn't take that much to renovate; Express Sports could probably do it alone without MAPS money. Keep the USL in OKC.

Again don't underestimate the new arena idea; just ask Seattle, you WILL lose the Thunder. I can tell you who's in line for an NBA franchise, the first two would be devastating:


1. Seattle
2 . Las Vegas
3. London
4. Vancouver
5. Kansas City
6. Louisville
7. Mexico City
8. San Diego


Ranking the 8 best cities for NBA expansion: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/10/nba-expansion-cities-options-seattle-vegas-london-vancouver-franchise-kevin-durant-sonics

What about a city endowment?

I thought of that, but I think there would be some issues with the State Constitution, Art. 10 sect 14, which states that " Taxes shall be levied and collected by general laws, and for public purposes only." While a city endowment might be theoretically possible, its spending would be limited to things deemed a public good, so while they could probably fund busses for OKCPS students to go on field trips or to other events for educational purposes, they probably couldn't fund scholarships.

With that limitation in mind, I think a Board of Directors could probably oversee the spending of that money. I think an endowment is a great idea.


Most of these ideas I'm reading are things which are going to cost the city a fortune to maintain, limit what we can do in the future, and if they succeed in bringing a quality franchise, they'll only have to be rebuilt at twice the price a couple decades later. That's not the sort of legacy I want to pass on.

^

Or, we could stop keeping our sales tax artificially low to accommodate MAPS and let it be placed in line with other OK municipalities and then we'd actually have money for operations of all types, such as cutting weeds, picking up trash, fixing streetlights, etc.

As it is, we already fund a good chunk of the Myriad Gardens and will be doing the same for Scissortail Park.

I like plans which guarantee some sort of revenue. Whether you have OKC starting its own electric company to use profits to enhance the city and pass on savings to citizens as Edmond does or whether you have some sort of huge endowment which can do anything from funding cabaret shows put on by the elderly to paying for buses for field trips to the OKC Zoo for students, there's some sort of recurring revenue, some sort of growth for future generations.

A stadium doesn't really accomplish that. We have the Thunder. We don't need another major franchise in a market this small.

The problem I have with what you suggest, Pete, is that doing what you suggests means that this era of growth through paying in cash for big shiny projects is over. Probably for good. Maybe all good things come to an end though?

It sounds like we make be out of big, shiny projects to do.

Seems like people are working pretty hard to come up with anything, which tells me we are getting way far down the list.

Good point about if an endowment is legal, and the money used from it would have to be watched. It would be a great way to offset the increased maintenance for all the MAPS. Depending on the size, ~750-1000 million, this would be a good increase in to the parks/trails budget.

I don't think we are running out of capital projects necessarily, but we are I believe at a crossroads where MAPS needs to and probably will evolve into more social issues which include transit, education, mental health, homelessness. It is definitely an effective funding mechanism with MAPS 3 bringing in nearly 800 million dollars and will effectively change the face of Oklahoma City forever. I definitely believe the primary focus of the upcoming vote will be transit including BART and Streetcar expansions in 3 or 4 directions. I hope something innovative can happen regarding education and mental health/substance abuse although I can understand if people don't think that is a MAPS priority.

I don't think we are running out of capital projects necessarily, but we are I believe at a crossroads where MAPS needs to and probably will evolve into more social issues which include transit, education, mental health, homelessness. It is definitely an effective funding mechanism with MAPS 3 bringing in nearly 800 million dollars and will effectively change the face of Oklahoma City forever. I definitely believe the primary focus of the upcoming vote will be transit including BART and Streetcar expansions in 3 or 4 directions. I hope something innovative can happen regarding education and mental health/substance abuse although I can understand if people don't think that is a MAPS priority.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I was thinking also if they get the sidewalks and streets repaired - MAPS 4 could include a very robust bicycle infrastructure based on the Bike Walk OKC plans that came out this summer. Most of BW OKC does not have proper funding mechanisms yet but would indeed improve mobility options for everyone.

I was thinking also if they get the sidewalks and streets repaired - MAPS 4 could include a very robust bicycle infrastructure based on the Bike Walk OKC plans that came out this summer. Most of BW OKC does not have proper funding mechanisms yet but would indeed improve mobility options for everyone.

I like the Idea of building out a robust and protected bike network. Speaking of the Bike Walk OKC masterplan, The protected bike lanes on 4th street have been painted and a bike ramp behind the streetcar platform on 4th near Rob has been paved. There is a bike ramp that was installed on the corner of sheridan and gaylord as well that is part of the plan.

I was thinking also if they get the sidewalks and streets repaired - MAPS 4 could include a very robust bicycle infrastructure based on the Bike Walk OKC plans that came out this summer. Most of BW OKC does not have proper funding mechanisms yet but would indeed improve mobility options for everyone.

this is where i am at... i think Maps 4 should be all about transit and walkability... it should be street repair, more sidewalks, bike lanes and trails, and streetcar expansion. and could even include street lights, and other things that are directly related to these types of projects... lets pump some 800 million into roads that haven't seen love in decades, and make it to where i don't need to replace my shocks every 3 years, or that i'm able to ride a bike and feel safe, or able to use the streetcar to get to downtown, or be able to walk somewhere without feeling unsafe

^

Yep, I would be all for nothing but sidewalks, trails, recreation, and public transportation including expanding the streetcar system.

lets make it vibrant, hahahahah (https://thebaffler.com/salvos/dead-end-on-shakin-street)

If one of the announced projects is some sort of stadium built to attract a MLS team, I'm out on the MAPS brand. It had a good run. I should very much be the kind of person the powers that be need to impress. Not only did I support MAPS 3, I actively assisted and volunteered for the campaign. I'm an enthusiastic supporter of the concept and saw the foresight in all of the choices made to date.

^

Yep, I would be all for nothing but sidewalks, trails, recreation, and public transportation including expanding the streetcar system.
Add trees and landscaping (and upkeep) to this and I'm all in as well.

How about correcting our street light problem - Solar street lights. No exposed copper wire to steal and no electric bills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7AViY0iOQ

We should build David Holt's dog Logan (who just had his 2nd birthday!) a $100,000,000 dog house for the
upcoming winter...this would create jobs!!!

14968

I just finally read this entire thread. And I was happy to read that my ideas are in line with most here. Focus this on transit. Streetcar Expansion is first, along with street and sidewalk improvements. In fact, they need to be done at the same time (unlike the way we just did the first round of streetcar/p180). All of midtown and uptown's entertainment areas need a full street and sidewalk workover. We have so many cool businesses and areas, with pathetic ways to travel between them.

I, too, will be voting No if a new arena or stadium is on ballot.

For those of you who would be voting NO if a soccer stadium was on the ballot. Would you vote NO if a stadium was only a small portion of the overall bill with most monies going towards transit, bike trails, etc.. like we've been discussing on here? I know why it would be a dealbreaker for many of you, but would it really be worth voting no if it meant missing out on a plethora of much needed improvements and public transit expansions?

I think we should see if the streetcar is going to be successful before expanding it. If Maps 4 is all about the core area again, I will vote no.

If they don't come up with something enticing I'm afraid this might be the last of the MAPS. Don't think there is any way possible that OKC residents will vote to build a soccer stadium for a minor league team.

But we built a stadium for a minor league baseball team and an arena for no team at all. I am not a soccer fan but I think that we have to look at the trajectory of soccer in this country. Not having a stadium or a plan for a stadium puts the community in a position of having to catch up in the future. Given the timeline for MAPS projects, I think the question is what do we want OKC to look like in 2030.

For those of you who would be voting NO if a soccer stadium was on the ballot. Would you vote NO if a stadium was only a small portion of the overall bill with most monies going towards transit, bike trails, etc.. like we've been discussing on here? I know why it would be a dealbreaker for many of you, but would it really be worth voting no if it meant missing out on a plethora of much needed improvements and public transit expansions?

Great logic; why sacrifice many of the projects we all want like more transit, sidewalks, street lights because of one project that probably won't account for 10% of the total initiative. Everybody's not going to get every thing they want on MAPS 4. Must admit that we haven't had a lot of posters on here with posts where one project sinks the Titanic.

Let's all step back from our devices; take a deep breath--get involved in the information gathering process afforded up by the mayor & council by submitting our ideas. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves with predictions.

Encourage everyone to get involved. Go to: How to Submit Ideas: From Mayor Holt: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4


https://youtu.be/iEw1E_UtjjE

I think we should see if the streetcar is going to be successful before expanding it. If Maps 4 is all about the core area again, I will vote no.

The streetcar is so limited in its current configuration that there's no way to know how successful it will be with expansion. Even if the initial, limited line is not successful that does not mean it will not be more successful with expansion. In fact, any success may rely on expansion to cover a more wide area. While it's good to pay close attention to the successes and failures of OKC's streetcar, the successes and failures of other cities may be more instructive for planning.

We had to build the minor league stadium, my understanding is AAA baseball had all sorts of issues with us playing at all sports stadium at the fairgrounds. The arena was for an NHL team we had a shot at getting. I don't have a dog in this fight but folks who know better than I would say we don't have a shot at getting an MLS team right now.

https://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2018/10/handicapping-the-next-mls-expansion-round-october-2018-edition/

The streetcar is so limited in its current configuration that there's no way to know how successful it will be with expansion. Even if the initial, limited line is not successful that does not mean it will not be more successful with expansion. In fact, any success may rely on expansion to cover a more wide area. While it's good to pay close attention to the successes and failures of OKC's streetcar, the successes and failures of other cities may be more instructive for planning.

As I mentioned previously, the real ridership success of the streetcar will occur when commuter rail is running in and out of Santa Fe station every day. Daily ridership will soar, as several thousand commuters who work in the downtown area transfer from train to streetcar to get to their work place. That's true for the considered extension to the Health Science Center as well. That doesn't mean until that time that the ridership levels will be such that the system is not considered successful. I'm hopeful there will be enough ridership and economic development in the near term to deem it a success. Just keep in mind that final judgement on the success of the streetcar will be several years away.

http://i.imgur.com/DkhSmGX.png (https://imgur.com/DkhSmGX)

Here's my streetcar extension proposal. MAPS 4 should include one or two of these. The red is the current streetcar system (not exact, forgive me if I made an error somewhere on it). The blue is a double-track line down to Capitol Hill. This line provides more users and extends service to a cool, historical area. The orange line is a loop that goes to the OUHSC. This makes the Chamber of Commerce happy as well as helping the "Innovation District" move forward. The green line is a double-track down to the Stockyards City area, which should become a nice tourist stop. And purple runs back and forth to the Plaza District, for those hip and trendy young folks.

Any of these extensions would useful by itself. If MAPS 5 or 6 or whatever fails, and we only get some of these, it still makes sense as a functional system.

^^^nice. In addition, my dream line would be one that ran up walker to 36th then over to western where it would go all the way up to whole foods/chk.

My ideal system would extend further than that. I think any planned extension has to make sense both on its own, and as a basis for future expansion. You never know when you've installed the last streetcar line, until the next one gets no support.

On a larger scale, I'd like to see a system that served more of the city. One line goes down either Penn or Western to like SW 74th, one that goes down Shields to the same point. We could have East-West lines at South 59th, South 25th, North 23rd, and maybe North 50th. Run a NW line up Classen to Belle Isle and then Chesapeake. Run a NE line up Lincoln Blvd, then over to MLK and up to the Adventure District. I think it would do a great job of really connecting the city, and it would serve a large part of the community while also hitting the "tourist spots". But a system like that would have to be phased in gradually, or would require an entire MAPS project all on its own. With the RTA coming up, I don't know that you could get the public to understand that they were two different projects, and that we needed both of them.

Streetcar expansion, for sure. Great plan, hoya!

The lagoon would be awesome. Let's get that on there.

The indoor ski resort would also be really cool.

No stadium.

Here we f#$%#$ go again!



for those of you who would be voting no if a soccer stadium was on the ballot. Would you vote no if a stadium was only a small portion of the overall bill with most monies going towards transit, bike trails, etc.. Like we've been discussing on here? I know why it would be a dealbreaker for many of you, but would it really be worth voting no if it meant missing out on a plethora of much needed improvements and public transit expansions?

But we built a stadium for a minor league baseball team and an arena for no team at all. I am not a soccer fan but I think that we have to look at the trajectory of soccer in this country. Not having a stadium or a plan for a stadium puts the community in a position of having to catch up in the future. Given the timeline for MAPS projects, I think the question is what do we want OKC to look like in 2030.

I'm fine with a plan for a stadium. I'm even fine with building a stadium with the promise of a franchise. I'm not fine with building an arena for no reason when there are plenty of other projects--some which would generate revenue which are much more deserving.

If this is included, I'll be over the MAPS model. In the past, they've stuck one project no one wants packaged together with a lot of cool things. We'll see how the convention center pans out.

^^^nice. In addition, my dream line would be one that ran up walker to 36th then over to western where it would go all the way up to whole foods/chk.

Yes it has to go north at some point, whether along walker, shartel, western or classen. You have to connect homes and residents to the line. It wont be successful being a service that shuffles CBD workers to lunch and back, has to be more. This is also why im skeptical of having it circle the health center/OU/OMRF without connecting to homes first.

Yes it has to go north at some point, whether along walker, shartel, western or classen. You have to connect homes and residents to the line. It wont be successful being a service that shuffles CBD workers to lunch and back, has to be more. This is also why im skeptical of having it circle the health center/OU/OMRF without connecting to homes first.

Absolutely. I like this particular route because in addition to serving the northern inner city neighborhoods, it connects visitors in staying in Bricktown to Uptown, Paseo, western Ave, Classen Curve, and Whole foods. In addition, It would allow CHK employees and all those folks who work in the area to hop on after work and ride downtown for a game or whatever.

I think the #1 priority for streetcar expansion should be to the Capitol Hill area. The city should do that regardless of anything else.

The city should also get with OU and OCU, and say "we're considering an additional route, but we need you to partner with us if you want it to extend to your campus". The northwest line that would go up to the Plaza District can be extended to give a stop at 23rd and Penn. We'll even call it the OCU stop. But they need to fork over some cash to cover some of the cost. Same thing with OU Medical Center and getting their own dedicated line.

OU football would alone pay for the line for gamedays. Going to and from the games via train would be a big sell for people.

OU football would alone pay for the line for gamedays. Going to and from the games via train would be a big sell for people.

Occasionally, I'd take the train from San Jose (had a cousin there) to SF to see the Giants play.

It was just awesome fun. By the time we got to the stop near the stadium the train was packed with fans, all in a great mood and ready to support their team.

Was really easy to take back, too. It's a great way to move a lot of people into and out of a small area. And trains that serve such facilities usually put on extra cars and trains for the events.


The Norman station isn't super close to the stadium but I've parked almost that far away and walked many times. And of course the could easily add shuttle busses.

Occasionally, I'd take the train from San Jose (had a cousin there) to SF to see the Giants play.

It was just awesome fun. By the time we got to the stop near the stadium the train was packed with fans, all in a great mood and ready to support their team.

Was really easy to take back, too. It's a great way to move a lot of people into and out of a small area. And trains that serve such facilities usually put on extra cars and trains for the events.


The Norman station isn't super close to the stadium but I've parked almost that far away and walked many times. And of course the could easily add shuttle busses.

That would great. Make it almost like a fan experience. Also would bring some more business to area around the train station for that part of Norman. A lot of people still just come down for tailgating and being in Norman for the experience. This would do nothing but help that.

Plus less traffic for everyone else....

^

Plus it could really boost occupancy in the downtown OKC hotels.

Come to town for the weekend, take the train down for the game, spend Saturday night downtown.

Would be great for both OU and rival fans.

^

Plus it could really boost occupancy in the downtown OKC hotels.

Come to town for the weekend, take the train down for the game, spend Saturday night downtown.

Would be great for both OU and rival fans.

but this is more suited to talk about with the Regional Transit Authority work... not Maps 4

You can take the morning Amtrack down now, right? Why couldn't Amtrack run back and forth between Norman and OKC a couple times on gameday mornings and advertise it?

You can take the morning Amtrack down now, right? Why couldn't Amtrack run back and forth between Norman and OKC a couple times on gameday mornings and advertise it?

Only one train: Leaves OKC at 8:25A and then leaves Norman on the way back north at 8:48P.

These routes lose money (and usually a lot of it) so it would have to be regionally subsidized.

In California, commuter trains ran on the Amtrak lines but were a completely separate operation.

Plus it could really boost occupancy in the downtown OKC hotels. Come to town for the weekend, take the train down for the game, spend Saturday night downtown.

Great observation. One of the misguided concerns we had to deal with in our early work on the RTA was the idea that by developing rail transit between OKC and the surrounding suburbs that somehow that would be detrimental to OKC. Most everyone now understands that trains run both directions, and that there will be equal benefits for all cities, including OKC. Yours is a great example of that point.

Also, there have been a number of discussions during the RTA work, and as part of Norman's recent Transportation Plan, about the idea of having a train station on the east side of the Duck Pond for game days and other special events at OU.

Absolutely. I like this particular route because in addition to serving the northern inner city neighborhoods, it connects visitors in staying in Bricktown to Uptown, Paseo, western Ave, Classen Curve, and Whole foods. In addition, It would allow CHK employees and all those folks who work in the area to hop on after work and ride downtown for a game or whatever.

ACOG's Commuter Corridors Study that was completed in 2015 recommended a streetcar line extending from the northwest end of the current system north on Classen to 63rd as part of the Locally Preferred Alternative for the North Corridor (OKC-Edmond).

14980

The great thing about being identified as part of the LPA of the study is that it qualifies the line to receive matching federal funding. That could be a big deal. Those type of studies are expensive and take a long time to complete. For this line, things are ready to go.

You can take the morning Amtrack down now, right? Why couldn't Amtrack run back and forth between Norman and OKC a couple times on gameday mornings and advertise it?

History is amazing, back when Santa Fe had it’s own pasanger dept. they ran a special train from the downtown depot, to Norman, and back on game days, as well running a special to Dallas for the OU-Tex game. You never know what you have till it’s gone!

The Norman station isn't super close to the stadium but I've parked almost that far away and walked many times. And of course the could easily add shuttle busses.


Maybe if this ever became a reality, Norman could build a Brooks Street Station for gameday/campus visits

Maybe if this ever became a reality, Norman could build a Brooks Street Station for gameday/campus visits

I think that would be part of the plan, possibly partially funded by OU. I don’t know if it would have hourly service but definitely would have higher frequency for football games and campus events. The main Norman station with frequent every-30-minute service would be downtown/Main Street.

^

Plus it could really boost occupancy in the downtown OKC hotels.

Come to town for the weekend, take the train down for the game, spend Saturday night downtown.

Would be great for both OU and rival fans.

I suspect people are already doing this without transit but you're thought is wonderful.

Recall the OU-KSU game from Saturday, Fox did a wonderful video montage about Norman/Oklahoma which began with the rural then Norman/OU then had very nice shots of downtown OKC. Really very nicely done giving the feeling that OU is in an urban oasis on the prairie. While that may not be totally true since Norman is a suburb and not the city, OU is in the OKC metro area and the video gave the feeling of what you would do when coming here; fly into the city - game at OU - fun back up in the city.

Also equally impressive was when one of the announcers said he LOVED coming to Norman (meaning OKC) for OU games - and he has called every Fox game for OU thus far. .. You know that was his itinerary and likely is that of most visitors. Was just so thrilling to see.

ACOG's Commuter Corridors Study that was completed in 2015 recommended a streetcar line extending from the northwest end of the current system north on Classen to 63rd as part of the Locally Preferred Alternative for the North Corridor (OKC-Edmond).

14980

The great thing about being identified as part of the LPA of the study is that it qualifies the line to receive matching federal funding. That could be a big deal. Those type of studies are expensive and take a long time to complete. For this line, things are ready to go.

I love the LPA I just disagree that there should be a stop at 23rd. Why have a stop there when it's not that far to downtown and then connect to shuttle or streetcar. I think it would be too many stops for CR, where the point is to have a MASS of people not have a mass of stops. Also, you would likely diminish the viability of the downtown station a bit if half of the trains got off/on the stop just before.

Save the money for the would be needed 23rd station and shuttles/streetcar and just go from 63rd to downtown, then have a proper transfer to the last mile mode be it shuttle bus, streetcar, or whatever to the CBD or the capital area.

Based on his emails, it sure looks like Holt will be upset if he doesn't get another
publicly subsidized stadium. Worst case scenario he doesn't get it, and we start pursuing
sane economic growth models that can benefit everyone, including getting the Country back
on track..... 14983

I’m starting to regret my vote for Holt. He ran on the coattails of Mick and got my vote that way. So far he’s been a disappointment.

Based on his emails, it sure looks like Holt will be upset if he doesn't get another
publicly subsidized stadium. Worst case scenario he doesn't get it, and we start pursuing
sane economic growth models that can benefit everyone, including getting the Country back
on track..... 14983

The people on that email are all with the Chamber... Then there is Funk who owns the Energy, and then the rest (Couch, Hill, Fox) are city staff.

The Chamber runs the MAPS promotions and what they want has a lot to do with what makes it to a vote.

Wow, what a breath of fresh air and transperancy elected to the office of mayor. Stuff like this is surely just the tip of the iceberg. Suggestions made on just letting the program expire and raising the sale's tax for needed improvements and not toys for the elite should be considered by the electorate and those paying the freight.

Nothing about that email is remotely controversial

Nothing about that email is remotely controversial

Right? That business leaders would converse with government about projects to benefit the community? Shocking. Appalling.

Yah. But I think the trip to Sacramento was a big shady... 14984

Right? That business leaders would converse with government about projects to benefit the community? Shocking. Appalling.

Yeah, I don't get it. What was in that email that indicated Holt would be upset if he doesn't get a publicly subsidized stadium? It seems like he merely mentioned beginning a discussion. Am I missing something?

How is visiting a peer city “shady”?