It still blows me away how many people don’t understand what maps is for.

Sponsoring an NCAA bowl game is all time non sensical ridiculous idea.

haha... i was thinking the exact same thing

I'd love to see more trees in the urban core and all around okc, and sidewalks in neighborhoods fixed (Paseo,Plaza). I like the idea of a soccer stadium but i do worry, so im back and forth.

But to argue that we don't want one because lots of people here watch Premier League over MLS is silly. Of course they do. We don't have an MLS team. Go to Kansas City. Go to Orlando or Atlanta or Seattle or Portland or Toronto or Columbus or Sacramento or Nashville. Ask them if they only pay attention to the European leagues and don't support MLS.

Did you mean to quote to my post? I didn't make that argument.

Change Maps so monies can be raised from the sales tax to maintain current and future projects

The mayor has mentioned doing this via endowments established with MAPS funds.

Even the new sidewalks need maintenance.

I have newish ones all around my neighborhood and most have huge weeds growing up through them which is going to cause big problems down the road.

And we already pay a big chunk to the Myriad Gardens and now Scissortail Park out of our general city budget. Many of these projects place a strain on our existing tax dollars.

If people want a soccer stadium they need to have an owners group that can get the attention of the MLS and get on their radar. Then if the MLS agrees to place a team in OKC that is the time to talk stadium. That would be the time to ask the public to pitch in and HELP build a stadium. It should not be up to the citizens of OKC to build a 100-200 mil. dollar stadium. It should be a partnership with the owners group. And it will cost 100-200 mil to build an MLS stadium depending on where it's built.

My brother just sent me a text from Dubai with a picture of their incredible indoor ski resort. If we can't find a way to dedicate a portion of the MAPS tax to fund the regional transit system, then I'm all in for building one of these in OKC:

14963

14964

14965

Now that would be transformational:cool:

My brother just sent me a text from Dubai with a picture of their incredible indoor ski resort. If we can't find a way to dedicate a portion of the MAPS tax to fund the regional transit system, then I'm all in for building one of these in OKC:

14963

14964

14965

Now that would be transformational:cool:

I wonder what one of these cost? I would love something like this and something like Crystal Lagoons. Since we're landlocked, why not get some mountain and beach activity here? Sign me up!

That said, I bet that some minor updates such as trees and LED street lighting could go pretty far. I HATE the orange high pressure sodium lights. They are only good for growing cannabis. When I drive at night in the rain, the lighting is so terrible on many OKC streets I can't even tell where the lane markers are.

I wonder what one of these cost? I would love something like this and something like Crystal Lagoons. Since we're landlocked, why not get some mountain and beach activity here? Sign me up!

That said, I bet that some minor updates such as trees and LED street lighting could go pretty far. I HATE the orange high pressure sodium lights. They are only good for growing cannabis. When I drive at night in the rain, the lighting is so terrible on many OKC streets I can't even tell where the lane markers are.

I've been on the Crystal Lagoon train since the start. Put it over by the white water rapids and boathouses. Would be an amazing thing in the summer. No beach? Build one

I'd still love to see a massive investment in what I'll generally call "beautification." Without the natural beauty and geography of many cities, Oklahoma City can look a little lacking. Think fountains, more boulevard-like streets with medians and turn lanes, raise community standards for accountability in dilapidated structures all over the metro, So many possibilities that could change the perception of our city, inside (and especially outside) the core.

I've been on the Crystal Lagoon train since the start. Put it over by the white water rapids and boathouses. Would be an amazing thing in the summer. No beach? Build one

So I did some Googling Maps'ing and came up with this. The Epperson Lagoon on Florida is a recently completed one.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/epperson+lagoon+florida/@28.2722474,-82.2923562,850m/data=!3m1!1e3

Epperson lagoon needs ~ 1 sq mile of land:

https://i.imgur.com/qqkvF2M.jpg

The scrapyard is just about the only lot that would fit near the river. But, I guess it could work, based on my crude mockup:

https://i.imgur.com/t4ulp0x.png?1

^

Thanks for the effort!

Remember though that the new OG&E substation is at the east end of that parcel.

I'd still love to see a massive investment in what I'll generally call "beautification." Without the natural beauty and geography of many cities, Oklahoma City can look a little lacking. Think fountains, more boulevard-like streets with medians and turn lanes, raise community standards for accountability in dilapidated structures all over the metro, So many possibilities that could change the perception of our city, inside (and especially outside) the core.

I agree, with so many run down streets, curbs, sidewalks to nowhere, "parks", and other issues spread all around the city, there's no shortage of beautification work!

I wonder what one of these cost? I would love something like this and something like Crystal Lagoons. Since we're landlocked, why not get some mountain and beach activity here? Sign me up!

That said, I bet that some minor updates such as trees and LED street lighting could go pretty far. I HATE the orange high pressure sodium lights. They are only good for growing cannabis. When I drive at night in the rain, the lighting is so terrible on many OKC streets I can't even tell where the lane markers are.

You shoudl drive through Bethany along 39th expressway. They just finished installing new LED street lights and they are amazing!

I'd still love to see a massive investment in what I'll generally call "beautification." Without the natural beauty and geography of many cities, Oklahoma City can look a little lacking. Think fountains, more boulevard-like streets with medians and turn lanes, raise community standards for accountability in dilapidated structures all over the metro, So many possibilities that could change the perception of our city, inside (and especially outside) the core.

I'd be on board with that.

^

The problem is we have no budget to maintain what we have now. Weeds and trash everywhere.

Ironically, at least part of that is due to keeping our sales tax artificially low to accommodate MAPS.

Even with the $.01 for MAPS, OKC is still a little below average when it comes to neighboring sales tax rates.


So, effectively, we have not raised our sales tax for operating budget to make room for MAPS and because our operating budget is so low, we have a difficult time doing routine maintenance.

This is part of MAPS that few people understand.

That is so true, Pete.

As we build lets hope our sales tax collections grow proportionately to cover operation expenses.

Continue the ideas of what posters want? We know that any idea posted here falls into the category of what some individual poster doesn't want--think about it. Also, don't forget that some ideas don't come under the category of capital improvements.

What are capital improvements:


A capital improvement project provides for the construction, repair, or improvement of buildings or grounds. This includes new construction, additions, renovations, renewals, repairs, site development, utility services, extensions and plant improvements, parking facilities, roads, fixed equipment installation and similar projects.

Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) does capital improvements on roads, bridges etc; therefore some of these may overlap.

^

The problem is we have no budget to maintain what we have now. Weeds and trash everywhere.

Ironically, at least part of that is due to keeping our sales tax artificially low to accommodate MAPS.

Even with the $.01 for MAPS, OKC is still a little below average when it comes to neighboring sales tax rates.


So, effectively, we have not raised our sales tax for operating budget to make room for MAPS and because our operating budget is so low, we have a difficult time doing routine maintenance.

This is part of MAPS that few people understand.

Even though I've been a HUGE proponent of MAPS, I do tend to agree. Living in the part of the city that was built in the late 50's/early 60's, it is MORE than apparent that basic infrastructure is long overdue for upkeep. Dramatically so, in many ways.

Three things come to mind:.

1. What would it cost to fix 90% of the "core" of OKC's roads? I've seen the project list & cost for Better Streets/Safer City, and I truly think it would cost near $3,000,000,000 to fix the majority of highly trafficked roads.

2. Is "Better Streets II" more important than MAPS 4? In some ways I kinna think, ya.

3. Should we just stop the "initiatives" parade and raise the damn tax to 8.5% and go on with our lives? This gives me pause too, but.. I kinna agree.

I'm torn. If we're going MAPS 4 though, build me a damn beach!

Sales tax collections are up like 10% YOY and at an all time high. The system is working. We have the operational revenue to pay for the new toys because the new toys drive new revenue.

Even during the worst oil bust since the 80s, sales tax revenue declined but definitely didn’t plunge.

One project for MAPS4 needs to be a downtown middle/high school for the John Rex kids

Not enough students to warrant either. When there are 2 or 3 elementary schools dt, then would be the time.

They need to take care of the overcrowding at southside schools first.

How about investment in renewable energy production to bring power to the City of OKC at or near cost, delivering more cost effective power to benefit businesses and the people?

How about investment in renewable energy production to bring power to the City of OKC at or near cost, delivering more cost effective power to benefit businesses and the people?

That would be great for the people but OG&E might not like that idea so much. And from what I understand they have a very powerful voice around these parts.

That would be great for the people but OG&E might not like that idea so much. And from what I understand they have a very powerful voice around these parts.

That's one company vs. ALL of the other companies and people. One company shouldn't get to decide. If they have a business model which doesn't hold up because they are selling us power at too high a markup, too bad.

That's one company vs. ALL of the other companies and people. One company shouldn't get to decide. If they have a business model which doesn't hold up because they are selling us power at too high a markup, too bad.

Not sure if serious. This is something that literally every city in America has to think about. You don't want to upset the balance with your biggest employers. Just saying, this is something OKC deals, with, Seattle deals with, Portland, Austin, DFW, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. Seattle did away with a tax because Amazon didn't like it. I am about 90% sure that, if investments in renewable energy is chosen as an initiative, then OG&E will have been behind it.

Because FERC that’s why.

You don’t get to just build power plants and power lines.

It’s such a big, massive, expensive, complicated undertaking you need an entire team to get it done. (You know like a company)

Also I’m pretty sure cities have zero authority in that area it’s mostly a state and federal issue.

Because FERC that’s why.

You don’t get to just build power plants and power lines.

It’s such a big, massive, expensive, complicated undertaking you need an entire team to get it done. (You know like a company)

Also I’m pretty sure cities have zero authority in that area it’s mostly a state and federal issue.

Edmond has their own electric company. OKC could do the same. You don't have to be a for-profit corporation to follow federal regulations.

It would be better for the community that we either have a profit-neutral operation or reinvest the revenues back into the community as Edmond does rather than paying shareholders. This would be the sort of investment which would pay dividends for generations. Rather than building costly toys like an empty stadium, which would probably kill MAPS, I hope leadership would be looking at long-term improvements which could really produce a return on the public's investment. That was surely the hope for all of the downtown projects.

I think it would be cool if OKC built its own solar panel farm. Doesn’t have to be overly massive, but it would be a small step to making OKC a little more environmentally friendly. Could just pump the electricity straight into the grid and use the proceeds in the general budget.

Renewable(solar and wind) are not a good energy source for large scale solutions. Nuclear is the best option.

Just thought about another idea related to the article in the Oklahoman (today, Sunday) about the Stockyard Stampede. Include in the MAPS 4 budget to give each district/area/neighborhood its own money for enhancements:

Oklahoma City currently has a number of unique areas, neighborhoods & districts: Asian, Adventure, Automobile Alley, Bricktown, Boathouse, Capital Hill, Deep Deuce, Eastside 23rd, Film Row, Midtown, Stockyard City, The Paseo, The Plaza, Uptown 23rd, Western Avenue, Wheeler...

Budget whatever Total amount is needed: $75 million to $100 million--let the individual districts, areas & neighbors decide how they want to spend their money. Council representative and/or established neighborhood groups could help implement/oversee the funds for the projects--$1 to $2 million...

Give these districts/areas/neighborhoods the funds-grants for things like beautification, lights, sidewalks, signage, planters, trees etc.

I don’t have a dog in this fight but the problem with splitting it up is every district gets such a small amount that there’s very little overall impact. $2 million sounds like a lot, but even just some new signage, lighting, and landscaping for an intersection can get into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and if utilities need to be relocated it can very easily jump into the millions.

MAPS has always been about a small number of huge projects that have a transformative impact on the city as a whole. If we don’t have any more of these, we need to retire it. I’d hate to see MAPS die because it got butchered up into a ton of tiny projects that no one would notice. .

Edmond has their own electric company. OKC could do the same. You don't have to be a for-profit corporation to follow federal regulations.

It would be better for the community that we either have a profit-neutral operation or reinvest the revenues back into the community as Edmond does rather than paying shareholders. This would be the sort of investment which would pay dividends for generations. Rather than building costly toys like an empty stadium, which would probably kill MAPS, I hope leadership would be looking at long-term improvements which could really produce a return on the public's investment. That was surely the hope for all of the downtown projects.

Edmond has a co-op that buys their power from OGE.

Lol. ROI. Have you ever seen an Edmond power bill? It’s about double OKC’s.

This is ludicrous. You have no idea what you’re talking. It’s just a bunch of green energy virtue signaling without any regard for how it all actually functions versus what’s feasible and makes sense.

Edmond has a co-op that buys their power from OGE.

Lol. ROI. Have you ever seen an Edmond power bill? It’s about double OKC’s.

This is ludicrous. You have no idea what you’re talking. It’s just a bunch of green energy virtue signaling without any regard for how it all actually functions versus what’s feasible and makes sense.

Edmond owns and operates its own power company.
They get their energy from the Oklahoma Municipal Power Authority, which has power plants all over. They don’t buy anything from OG&E. They use “profits” to pay for essential city services - police, fire, etc.
Find information here http://edmondok.com/1241/Why-Public-Power- before posting false information.
Oh, Edmond residents pay 4% less than OKC. They also don’t have all the added fees. Really, did you do ANY research at all or just make up your reply to Midtowner?

Edmond has a co-op that buys their power from OGE.

Lol. ROI. Have you ever seen an Edmond power bill? It’s about double OKC’s.

This is ludicrous. You have no idea what you’re talking. It’s just a bunch of green energy virtue signaling without any regard for how it all actually functions versus what’s feasible and makes sense.

Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

Quoted for posterity.

I think it would be cool if OKC built its own solar panel farm. Doesn’t have to be overly massive, but it would be a small step to making OKC a little more environmentally friendly. Could just pump the electricity straight into the grid and use the proceeds in the general budget.
OKC is not in a good solar power location. I doubt the economics would be good. This IS a good wind energy state though.

OKC is not in a good solar power location. I doubt the economics would be good. This IS a good wind energy state though.

We're not?

https://i.redd.it/1tcxuyjql8001.jpg

NREL also tied Oklahoma for 6th place on their sun index level (http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/201.htm).

Further, while lots of OK is good for wind energy generation, OKC is marginal at best.

Did you mean to quote to my post? I didn't make that argument.

I was tacking on in agreement with you. Sorry, unclear

A lot of comments which do not support MAPS monies for a soccer stadium downtown seem to come from folks who don't enjoy soccer. "Granted I'm not a soccer fan... the few people that care at all about soccer don't watch the MLS." - "I'm all for just about anything but a MLS type stadium" - "If MAPS 4 is made primarily about a soccer stadium, I'm voting against it." and "Agreed. And I believe a lot of people will feel the same way."

As I read these comments I began to wonder what the demographics of OKCTalk readership. (Has this ever been studied?) If we assume the average contributor to OKCTalk is a college educated white male in his late 40s or older then it's no wonder we are having this discussion in an echo-chamber of disgruntlement.

Now, if the lack of support for a soccer specific stadium is coming from a place of "cities shouldn't subsidize sports teams" then that is a different beast. But, if your gut reaction to a proposed MLS/USL specific stadium is an emotional response to money being spent on a sport you don't personally watch then I would suggest you consider the benefit OKC would gain from the existence of a second "major league team" instead of focusing on the sport itself. The Thunder have absolutely elevated our recognition and profile on a national level. A second "major league team" would provide an additional avenue for recognition and a new dimension to our city's national identity. I would suggest that discussions of a MAPS funded soccer stadium occur with recognition that soccer, like it or not, is a legitimate sport with a real following. I've linked a few articles below so you folks can see I'm not just making stuff up. If we take the findings below as true, wouldn't it be wise to invest our city's money and energy in a sport which is on the rise and has demonstrably been shown to be the sport which our teenagers will be watching? I want OKC to be forward thinking, and I believe having an MLS team is a progressive approach to city-building.

Lastly, I would reference a telling quote from the Dallas Mavericks owner, Mark Cuban. Mr. Cuban was asked, "If you could own a team in any other sports league, what league would you choose?" He responded, "if you would have asked me this question 10 years ago, I would have said baseball, but things have changed. I think the MLS has the best opportunity outside of the NBA. Their challenge is that the value of their franchises are growing faster than their revenues which makes it harder to invest in a franchise. But I think generally they are best positioned behind the NBA."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#212d4c563c53 (Great article summarizing the rise of US soccer - 2018)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/224864/football-americans-favorite-sport-watch.aspx (The Gallup poll which the prior article pulls from - take a look at the second data chart as it's very relevant to what is stated above - 2018)

http://www.espn.com/soccer/news/story/_/id/1740529/mls-catches-mlb-popularity-kids-says-espn-poll (ESPN article showing US teens are already watching more soccer than MLB. NHL is way behind- 2014)

^^^

I was one of the ones that said I'm not in favor of a stadium. I am a big time soccer fan, but I don't think the city should subsidize a stadium, and I don't see OKC being anywhere near the map of landing a MLS franchise unfortunately. They won't keep expanding forever (unless they magically decide to devalue their investments by going to 40 or so teams and splitting up into two divisions with promotion and relegation between them) and I fear we are just too far behind to make up ground on the already very much established expansion candidates.

Thank you for posting though aDark, that's some good information.

^

Yep, I'm a huge soccer fan. Have seen many matches in Europe, follow the sport extensively.

I do not think the taxpayers should be subsidizing a soccer stadium and agree that MLS is a very long shot.


Also, I've yet to hear what 'other uses' this stadium would provide that aren't already offered in town. We have tons of stadiums, arenas and outdoor space and those aren't exactly maxing out on their usage.

Not that I can vote on the measure, but as an Energy FC fan and avid lover of the game of soccer, I would prefer a privately funded stadium. I do not want to deal with conditions set about from the city or the scrutiny of taxpayers who do not care about the club or sport.

I don't like Taft, but I would rather wait for a privately funded option than to try and make taxpayers pay for it.

What if a soccer stadium were built similar to the Dallas FC stadium that had a stage on one end? It could double as a concert venue. And it could be used for high school football games also, even as a championship site for the larger classes - they could rotate between OKC and Tulsa.

What if a soccer stadium were built similar to the Dallas FC stadium that had a stage on one end? It could double as a concert venue. And it could be used for high school football games also, even as a championship site for the larger classes - they could rotate between OKC and Tulsa.

We have tons of places to hold outdoor concerts and will soon have another big one at Scissortail Park.

Taft could accommodate football games. And playoff games are already played at Putnam City and elsewhere.

The only thing we are missing out on is the 6A-1 title game and that is always Tulsa-area schools anyway and they either play it up there or in Stillwater.

We have tons of places to hold outdoor concerts and will soon have another big one at Scissortail Park.

Taft could accommodate football games. And playoff games are already played at Putnam City and elsewhere.

The only thing we are missing out on is the 6A-1 title game and that is always Tulsa-area schools anyway and they either play it up there or in Stillwater.

They should just rename 6A-1 championships the Tulsa State Title, like they do their fair!

But if somehow a soccer stadium does end up on the list, I do think it could be a nice multi-use facility with expansion possibilities in case of an MLS team coming here in the future.

i think we actually have very few outdoor options for concerts on the scale I'm thinking of (10-15,000). The Zoo Amphitheater doesn't even hold 10,000, and that's the biggest outdoor venue I can think of (and I'm not counting large open green spaces with no real seating / structure).

Anyway, I'm not even a soccer fan, but think it could be a nice addition that serves multiple purposes.

Generally speaking, stadiums make lousy concert venues.

And any pro soccer stadium will have natural turf which would make it even more problematic.


The Oval at Scissortail could hold a ton of people and is designed for concerts.

Generally speaking, stadiums make lousy concert venues.

And any pro soccer stadium will have natural turf which would make it even more problematic.

The Oval at Scissortail could hold a ton of people and is designed for concerts.

True, they do make bad concert venues, but if you have one, you're going to get more concerts in your city than if you didn't have one.

The MLS stadiums in Dallas and Chicago routinely host concerts (Ed Sheeran, Phish, Kenny Chesney, - Jimmy Buffett seems to be an annual show at both) and soccer matches every season. There's a way to protect the turf well enough to allow those to happen.

Will the Great Lawn at Scissortail Park be sloped and have seating available? Or is it just a big lawn with a stage at one end?

^

There is a huge, sloped hill at the far end for seating.

^

There is a huge, sloped hill at the far end for seating.

Good! When you have that large of an expanse, it sure will help to have some elevation towards the back.

^

There is a huge, sloped hill at the far end for seating.

I am super excited for this new outdoor area. The trees planted on the slope will look great once they mature enough. I do wonder whether the planting of trees near the great lawn area, and on the slope, will negatively effect the size of a crowd that can watch a show at Scissortail. Based on the size of the great lawn do we have any estimated numbers of how many people could attend a concert at Scissortail with the ability to see the stage? I *really* hope OKC is willing to pay a good amount of money for a big name (or 5) to come play for the opening of the park.

We HAVE to do something about street lighting. Find out what Bethany did as mentioned upthread. Use anti-copper theft technology like in Kansas City. Make sure each street corner has a decent light. Fix the lights on top of each traffic signal. Most of the ones I see are out.

I would love to get something done about the highways. Find out a way to get the high mast lights fixed. When I asked about the ones at I44 and Lincoln, I was told the City wanted them turned off. The list goes on and on.

Playing devil's advocate here, but what if we voted "No" and let the "temporary" MAPS tax increase expire and go back to previous levels of taxation (like it was originally sold to us)?

MAPS 4 will undoubtedly continue to include some large item projects. IMO it will be best served to include some small neighborhood enhancement items like lights, sidewalks and drainage. Admittedly they won't make that big of an impact community-wise; they just may be enough to sway voters. Chesapeake Energy Arena replacement could cost the city more than $600 million.

Anxious to see the projects proposed for this initiative. We need to stay focused on future ideas...

Do you think we will see an 8-10 year collection span worth $1.2 to $1.4 billion?

It does sound like there is not a real clear direction to go in, if I was in OKC I would probably vote No on Maps4

What about a city endowment?

The mayor is on record as supporting endowments with MAPS 4. I reported on this back in August where he spoke at a Neighborhood Alliance function at OCU:

https://twitter.com/shawn_dubs/status/1030848406070153216

I will absolutely vote no if a replacement for the arena is on a MAPS ballot before the building is actually physically obsolete. Spending a half billion to replace it just because it is a few decades old would be a mind-boggling waste of money.

New arena will be needed; we don't possess enough suites and money making amenities--The Peake can't be expanded; it's already obsolete. It will be the last item to be built on the ballot sometime after 2026.

If a new arena is on the ballot; city could build a much better structure on city owned land than the initial $89 million budgeted for The Peake--hope it doesn't exclude ice hockey.

How about some minor renovations to the Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark or completely renovate it as a soccer specific stadium and build a $75 million baseball venue on the riverfront?