View Full Version : Restaurant closings
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I said this in the Aurora thread but they had been trying to find a seasoned operator for some time.
The Strubles owned Aurora and they are developers without much (any?) restaurant experience.
But it's very hard for someone else to take over an existing operation. What makes more sense is to close down completely and let the next group in change things to make it their own. Hope that happens here.
Libbymin 07-01-2019, 03:52 PM They seemed to indicate that they had other plans in store for the Plaza so I'm curious to see what that is. Sad and very surprising for them to close though, especially so suddenly.
jccouger 08-12-2019, 11:43 AM Looks like The Zu sports grill in Edmond will be closing.
thunderbird 08-12-2019, 11:57 AM That place was gross, IMO - Looks like the Mule is going in that spot now.
mgharfeh 08-12-2019, 01:31 PM That place was gross, IMO - Looks like the Mule is going in that spot now.
Can’t tell if that’s just a joke or is The Mule really going in that spot? Hope it’s real!
Johnb911 08-12-2019, 01:46 PM The Mule is going to Edmond. For sure.
jerrywall 08-12-2019, 02:55 PM That place was gross, IMO - Looks like the Mule is going in that spot now.
That spot is such a great location, and the last couple of places have been real misses (the so-called Irish pub, and the Zu). I'm looking forward to what the Mule folks can do there.
It's just a rectangular space but there is lots of exposed brick and the setting in downtown Edmond is pretty great.
I bet The Mule kills it there.
Whiskey Biscuit in Deep Deuce is shuttered for good. Shame, I loved that inferno burger.
Three concepts have now failed in that spot.
WileyPostage 09-02-2019, 02:48 AM This one really bums me out -- after 40 years, Norman's Misal of India Bistro has closed.
"Oklahoma's First Indian Restaurant Closes":
http://www.oudaily.com/culture/oklahoma-s-first-indian-restaurant-closes/article_2fe68dba-c2cb-11e9-9f08-6feb14177f23.html
BG918 09-02-2019, 12:51 PM What a bummer about Misal! Their beef bhoti kebab was one of my favorite Indian dishes anywhere. Hopefully another Indian restaurant can fill the absence in Norman, and in a better location in downtown or the Corner.
The Smoking Boar is permanently closed as of 11/4/19.
TheTravellers 11-04-2019, 03:00 PM Mutt's on 23rd (not confirmed, but nothing has been done on the building since the windstorm closed them down)
Perez Truck Mexican on 23rd (not confirmed, but their last Yelp review was at the end of July, they went to new 9-5 hours at the beginning of August, and their last Facebook post was August 15)
SEMIweather 11-04-2019, 09:08 PM Damn, I went to that Perez Truck restaurant once and had some very good verde enchiladas. I guess at least they still have their actual truck down around SW 44th and Western.
That weird little house has now been home to a few awesome restaurants but between the extremely small size and lack of visibility, I imagine it's tough to succeed there. At least El Fogon De Edgar reopened out by I-240.
TheTravellers 11-04-2019, 10:12 PM Damn, I went to that Perez Truck restaurant once and had some very good verde enchiladas. I guess at least they still have their actual truck down around SW 44th and Western.
That weird little house has now been home to a few awesome restaurants but between the extremely small size and lack of visibility, I imagine it's tough to succeed there. At least El Fogon De Edgar reopened out by I-240.
We ate there twice and liked it a lot, but yes, you're right, it's in an odd spot, parking's not great, not very visible (even though their new orange and blue paint scheme is bright), thought they may make it based on all the possible customers working right across 23rd in Shepherd Center.
Mr. Blue Sky 11-05-2019, 06:26 PM The Smoking Boar is permanently closed as of 11/4/19.
What happened? Didn’t it only open four or five months ago?
Jeepnokc 11-06-2019, 08:44 AM What happened? Didn’t it only open four or five months ago?
https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=45094
Here is the thread for it
Bunty 12-03-2019, 07:34 PM Zaxby's closes 5 Oklahoma locations
Must have to do with people in Stillwater complain of too many chicken places.
https://www.stwnewspress.com/news/stillwater-zaxby-s-among-five-in-franchise-to-close/article_dfe95a8b-72a4-58af-a70b-204073835a38.html?fbclid=IwAR17Wyol6pRM2KKY7jCinN3 R0myHEdi8v7Mkv-hhb6XkZUvhWh9aAf_46jU#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
kukblue1 12-03-2019, 10:11 PM Zaxby's closes 5 Oklahoma locations
Must have to do with people in Stillwater complain of too many chicken places.
https://www.stwnewspress.com/news/stillwater-zaxby-s-among-five-in-franchise-to-close/article_dfe95a8b-72a4-58af-a70b-204073835a38.html?fbclid=IwAR17Wyol6pRM2KKY7jCinN3 R0myHEdi8v7Mkv-hhb6XkZUvhWh9aAf_46jU#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
I ate there a few times and it wasn't the greatest. In the Thunder programs last year there were free sandwiches with fries and drinks and the sandwiches were not that great. Not compared to Chick-fil-a and now popeys. Overall I though they were kind of expensive.
Thomas Vu 12-03-2019, 10:52 PM I thought it was overrated. Heavily salted and heavy grease. I always felt awful after eating it
PaddyShack 12-04-2019, 08:54 AM I thought it was overrated. Heavily salted and heavy grease. I always felt awful after eating it
This is how I have felt at most chicken places. I thought Slim Chickens and Chicken Express to be the worst, followed closely by Popeyes. Can't say I remember what KFC was like, the last few times I tried going they were always out of the chicken I wanted.
brunnesa 12-04-2019, 10:52 AM I thought it was overrated. Heavily salted and heavy grease. I always felt awful after eating it
I think that Zaxby's is one of the best chicken places. I think the worst has to be Raising Cains. The chicken at Cains has no taste at all if you don't use their sauce. If food needs sauce, then it is not worth eating.
jedicurt 12-04-2019, 11:02 AM I think that Zaxby's is one of the best chicken places. I think the worst has to be Raising Cains. The chicken at Cains has no taste at all if you don't use their sauce. If food needs sauce, then it is not worth eating.
my problem with Zaxby's atleast the one in Moore, is that it did have a taste, the same taste as the fries, and the onion rings... all i could taste was the grease and so all of my food just had the same taste.
Of all the chicken spots, Cane's is the one that always seems busiest.
I've only tried it once but I found the chicken fingers there to be of high-quality tender breast meat and fried up crispy and relatively light. I never have even tried Zaxby's or Chicken Express or PDQ before it closed here. I've only had Popeyes after a long night out... Seems to hit the spot when nursing a hangover.
I don't think I've had Chick-Fil-A since the days of working in Crossroads Mall in the early 80's.
BoulderSooner 12-04-2019, 11:26 AM Of all the chicken spots, Cane's is the one that always seems busiest.
I've only tried it once but I found the chicken fingers there to be of high-quality tender breast meat and fried up crispy and relatively light. I never have even tried Zaxby's or Chicken Express or PDQ before it closed here. I've only had Popeyes after a long night out... Seems to hit the spot when nursing a hangover.
I don't think I've had Chick-Fil-A since the days of working in Crossroads Mall in the early 80's.
if you cound chick-fil-a as a chicken place it is the busiest and really it is not close ..
although the new popeyes chicken sandwich has upped thier game quite a bit ..
i am glad the zaxbys in MWC is still open as i find it far superior to Cains
Yes, CFA is always slammed. Even the one at Penn Square.
I'm surprised you haven't eaten at a CFA since the 80s. Don't like the chicken? If it's not CFA for me, Cane's is easily the next one up.
kukblue1 12-04-2019, 05:12 PM The one on Reno is closed. Signs down everything. Gone
Slimjim 12-04-2019, 07:21 PM Zaxby’s or cfa
chuck5815 12-04-2019, 08:26 PM Just seems like there are about 2x more restaurants in place than the MSA can actually support.
SoonerDave 12-05-2019, 06:21 AM Just seems like there are about 2x more restaurants in place than the MSA can actually support.
Agreed. I think it's inevitable more closures are coming.
jedicurt 12-05-2019, 12:34 PM Just seems like there are about 2x more restaurants in place than the MSA can actually support.
or bad business owners. lets go back and look at PDQ... they didn't just close their stores in OKC metro... they even closed the ones in DFW... so that closing had nothing to do with OKC.
mugofbeer 12-05-2019, 07:55 PM Just seems like there are about 2x more restaurants in place than the MSA can actually support.
There are FAR more fast food outlets per capita in OKC than Denver.
chuck5815 12-05-2019, 08:09 PM There are FAR more fast food outlets per capita in OKC than Denver.Well, that definitely makes sense—but OKC has far more Fatties per capita than Denver too, and the Fast Food guys are well aware of that fact. But the bigger point is that an outsize share of folks with capital think they can make a restaurant work in OKC. One of my neighbors is a good example. Guy is a doctor with a very successful practice, and he decides to open a new cajun restaurant in the city. I told him, “Hey, dude, you’re going to lose your ass on this deal.” And he opened it anyway. From what I hear, business has been absolutely terrible and they aren’t even close to making the thing cash flow. They even resorted to Groupons, it is so bad. So yea, I think there are a large number of wealthy folks seeking to diversify away from an expensive stock market by lighting big barrels of money on fire in the restaurant business. A bunch of regular Hal Smiths, if you will.
SoonerDave 12-06-2019, 07:30 AM Some folks with *considerable* disposable operate a business like a restaurant purposely at a loss for several years as a tax shelter. I believe you can operate a business at a loss for a certain number of years and write off some of the loss (within constraints). Most folks doing this will operate the business for the time allowed, and when the exemption runs out, they close it down. I think Barry Switzer put a bunch of money into (at least) two different restaurants that, after a few years, quietly failed and then disappeared.
CloudDeckMedia 12-06-2019, 09:36 AM Some folks with *considerable* disposable operate a business like a restaurant purposely at a loss for several years as a tax shelter. I believe you can operate a business at a loss for a certain number of years and write off some of the loss (within constraints). Most folks doing this will operate the business for the time allowed, and when the exemption runs out, they close it down. I think Barry Switzer put a bunch of money into (at least) two different restaurants that, after a few years, quietly failed and then disappeared.
You don’t intentionally lose money in business so you can take the tax loss. Doesn’t work that way.
jedicurt 12-06-2019, 09:57 AM You don’t intentionally lose money in business so you can take the tax loss. Doesn’t work that way.
you don't work with people who own multiple businesses a lot then, do you?
SoonerDave 12-06-2019, 11:51 AM You don’t intentionally lose money in business so you can take the tax loss. Doesn’t work that way.
LOL I guess you live in Fantasy land. Whatever, dude. I know better. Have a good one.
SoonerDave 12-06-2019, 11:57 AM you don't work with people who own multiple businesses a lot then, do you?
LOL spot-on
I was naive about businesses not deliberately losing money I was kinda laughed at once and then someone explained to me how some rich folks hide some of their income, like doctors letting spouses run nonsense side-businesses for a few years. I will say that apparently the IRS cracked down on some of this a few years ago, putting limits on some losses, but the practice is still apparently pretty prevalent. I don't have that kind of cash, so it doesn't affect me LOLOL 😁
jerrywall 12-06-2019, 12:38 PM LOL spot-on
I was naive about businesses not deliberately losing money I was kinda laughed at once and then someone explained to me how some rich folks hide some of their income, like doctors letting spouses run nonsense side-businesses for a few years. I will say that apparently the IRS cracked down on some of this a few years ago, putting limits on some losses, but the practice is still apparently pretty prevalent. I don't have that kind of cash, so it doesn't affect me LOLOL 😁
Eh, it's a lot more complex than this... it doesn't make sense for someone to intentionally lose $1 to save $.35. Now, it might make sense if you're able to put a lot of non deductible expenses under one of the businesses and then declare a loss. However, that's technically illegal (although it does happen). You can't operate a business in order to declare a loss. The IRS does look at intent. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-07-18.pdf
However, having a spouse open up a side home business to enable for additional deductions is one thing. Opening up a business and intentionally sinking actual money (non virtual paper losses) makes no financial sense. You can only take a loss so many times before the IRS considers you a hobby. And you still had to take a loss.
So for example, I spend a lot on photography equipment, and do a lot of photography. I could establish a business and write off my equipment. So making a loss there would save me money (although it would increase the chance for an audit, and wouldn't technically be legal). However, if I started dumping real expenses in there like a storefront and such, then it wouldn't make financial sense. Even in the former case, it's only offsetting a percentage of money I was going to spend anyways. It wouldn't make financial sense to get into photography as a way to lose money and save on taxes. This is similar to people who claim that those who make charitable donations are just doing it to "save" money on taxes. Yes, you'd lower your tax bill, but your total out of pocket is significantly higher.
None of this is meant to include those who operate business to launder money. I know of a few restaurants/bars in OKC (although most of them are gone now) that operated only as money laundering operations.
Rover 12-06-2019, 12:57 PM LOL I guess you live in Fantasy land. Whatever, dude. I know better. Have a good one.
You would have to be really stupid or doing something illegal to purposely operate at a continual loss in order to take that loss to save taxes. What many people think of, but don't understand, is that you may be able to buy an ongoing concern that has accumulated losses that can be carried back, forward, or used currently, in order to offset current gains. It can be complicated and the seller is still in a loss situation. The idea that anyone trades a loss for a significantly less tax savings is nuts.
SoonerDave 12-06-2019, 05:32 PM You would have to be really stupid or doing something illegal to purposely operate at a continual loss in order to take that loss to save taxes. What many people think of, but don't understand, is that you may be able to buy an ongoing concern that has accumulated losses that can be carried back, forward, or used currently, in order to offset current gains. It can be complicated and the seller is still in a loss situation. The idea that anyone trades a loss for a significantly less tax savings is nuts.
I don't remember the details, but it was explained to me very matter-of-factly as a tax dodge years ago and something that was fairly routinely done. As I said, I don't travel in those financial circles so I can't vet the accuracy of it, maybe it was total BS, but I'm also sure they didn't explain every subtlety of detail.
Anyway, I'll leave this discussion to others who know more about it. Didn't intend to derail the topic off restaurant closures.
Jeepnokc 12-07-2019, 12:44 AM I will just say that there are businesses out there that generate losses that aren't necessarily losses. Let's keep it simple as I just came from office party and having to focus on keyboard. Say I am a hobbyist coin collector and I spend 5k per year visiting trade shows in Vegas because I am serous about my hobby. I spend another 10 k per year buying stuff for my collection. I am spending 15k per year on my hobby. I open a coin shop and have 50k in sales but have 50 k in salary, rent, expenses. I broke even or maybe lost a little. But throw in 15 in other expenses that I was already spending on my hobby which is now a business (or social bills drinking or eating out if you own bar) and all of the sudden you have a net loss on your business far greater than what you actually spent on the business.
Call me crazy or stupid but I know my tax bill is lighter due to certain restaurant investments and the result is a net gain. (and I use an hard nose CPA who cuts me no slack because I am way too pretty for jail)
Rover 12-09-2019, 02:12 PM I will just say that there are businesses out there that generate losses that aren't necessarily losses. Let's keep it simple as I just came from office party and having to focus on keyboard. Say I am a hobbyist coin collector and I spend 5k per year visiting trade shows in Vegas because I am serous about my hobby. I spend another 10 k per year buying stuff for my collection. I am spending 15k per year on my hobby. I open a coin shop and have 50k in sales but have 50 k in salary, rent, expenses. I broke even or maybe lost a little. But throw in 15 in other expenses that I was already spending on my hobby which is now a business (or social bills drinking or eating out if you own bar) and all of the sudden you have a net loss on your business far greater than what you actually spent on the business.
Call me crazy or stupid but I know my tax bill is lighter due to certain restaurant investments and the result is a net gain. (and I use an hard nose CPA who cuts me no slack because I am way too pretty for jail)
Of course you can do that, and people do. If you aren't particularly concerned about the ethics of it, or even the risk of having non-legit personal expenses discredited in audit, it may work... for awhile. But the IRS has been rightfully cracking down on "hobby" businesses used to cover personal expenses as business expenses. If anyone tells you they will spend $250,000 to set up a business so they can write off $20,000 a year in illegit expenses, maybe saving them $5-6,000 in taxes, then they are full of it.
CloudDeckMedia 12-09-2019, 05:28 PM you don't work with people who own multiple businesses a lot then, do you?
I DO own multiple businesses, and have over the years. Please share the math showing that a $1.00 loss in EBIDTA results in more than $1.00 in tax savings, and that it results in MORE money in your pocket at the end of the day, not less. If you're talking about ACRS, bonus depreciation and the like, that's different and not consistent with the broad sentiment, "rich people lose money because of the tax writeoff."
CloudDeckMedia 12-09-2019, 05:35 PM You would have to be really stupid or doing something illegal to purposely operate at a continual loss in order to take that loss to save taxes. What many people think of, but don't understand, is that you may be able to buy an ongoing concern that has accumulated losses that can be carried back, forward, or used currently, in order to offset current gains. It can be complicated and the seller is still in a loss situation. The idea that anyone trades a loss for a significantly less tax savings is nuts.
Yes to this. I owned an LLC which owned a single asset which had been almost fully depreciated, and a buyer made an offer. If I sold her the asset, the depreciation would be recaptured and I'd have a tax liability, but if I sold her the LLC, the tax liability would pass to her and I wouldn't owe a penny. I offered the latter, which she smilingly declined, and we closed the deal.
jedicurt 12-10-2019, 12:11 PM I DO own multiple businesses, and have over the years. Please share the math showing that a $1.00 loss in EBIDTA results in more than $1.00 in tax savings, and that it results in MORE money in your pocket at the end of the day, not less. If you're talking about ACRS, bonus depreciation and the like, that's different and not consistent with the broad sentiment, "rich people lose money because of the tax writeoff."
it's about offsetting your taxable income. if second business is making little to no revenue, or even a loss, then your expenses, as well as deductions for the costs of assets, can be used to offset your other taxable income. typically this is done to try and drop someone into a lower tax bracket, and thus results in paying less in taxes on that taxable income. a lot of times the money that is used to run and start the business may have been taxed at normal income rate, rather than capital gain rate depending upon it's source, and thus the loss of that money could actually end with a positive net amount when all taxes are figured due to lowering the incoming tax bracket back down over the course of a few years when this money is removed from markets or investments.
one of the best ways of looking at it is that the long term capital gains tax is paid on a rate based upon your tax bracket, and so if someone is able to lower their tax bracket, they might be able to free up much more in investments at a reduced capital gains rate, and thus come out very much in the positive.
Rover 12-10-2019, 12:26 PM it's about offsetting your taxable income. if second business is making little to no revenue, or even a loss, then your expenses, as well as deductions for the costs of assets, can be used to offset your other taxable income. typically this is done to try and drop someone into a lower tax bracket, and thus results in paying less in taxes on that taxable income. a lot of times the money that is used to run and start the business may have been taxed at normal income rate, rather than capital gain rate depending upon it's source, and thus the loss of that money could actually end with a positive net amount when all taxes are figured due to lowering the incoming tax bracket back down over the course of a few years when this money is removed from markets or investments.
one of the best ways of looking at it is that the long term capital gains tax is paid on a rate based upon your tax bracket, and so if someone is able to lower their tax bracket, they might be able to free up much more in investments at a reduced capital gains rate, and thus come out very much in the positive.
Accelerated and bonus depreciation for certain assets may offset current income, but if recovered may be subject to tax recovery and penalties, especially if overstated. And, using accelerated depreciation for front-end savings reduces depreciation expenses after 5 and/or 15 years. The IRS also looks hard at schemes to turn current income into capital gains.
Also, you have to be careful to not confuse losses you can take as active vs passive.
Running a business at a loss is different than using other tax strategies. You still don't make money by losing money and spending $1 to make something less than $1.
jedicurt 12-10-2019, 12:33 PM yes, but remember that a lot of people only look at taxes from one year to the next, especially when they are making brash and quick decisions about current or next year. yes, over several years it could actually end up making their tax burden significantly worse. but that is also why so many people end up with massive tax bills and sometimes even tax evasion charges. it isn't that they just didn't pay taxes... it is that they did things to avoid paying a bunch of taxes now, in favor of short term gain, as opposed to long term strategy.
jedicurt 12-10-2019, 12:34 PM look back, i never said they should do it, or that it was smart in the long term... i just mentioned that it does happen and it happens a lot.
barrettd 12-10-2019, 12:35 PM How about a different thread for this argument?
3sixty is closing New Years Eve.
Abuelitas in Moore (from their FB page):
Friends and Family the time has come for us to let you know that this is the last weekend we will be open for business in our Moore Location. December 29th will be our last day, we have appreciated your company, business, laughter and even love. To us you are all family! If you have time this weekend please come by and say goodbye to all of us and let us see your faces one last time!
Teo9969 12-27-2019, 08:44 PM 3sixty is closing New Years Eve.
Booo...I wanted to get back there at some point, but I don't suppose I'll miss it too much.
Surely that space is going to stay shuttered for a while now.
Mr. Blue Sky 12-28-2019, 03:19 PM 3sixty is closing New Years Eve.
Sad to hear that. I know it’s been a tough go though.
1/14/20:
Buttermilk Sliders
Maples
Edmond Hausfrau 01-14-2020, 09:49 AM Well, that definitely makes sense—but OKC has far more Fatties per capita than Denver too, and the Fast Food guys are well aware of that fact. But the bigger point is that an outsize share of folks with capital think they can make a restaurant work in OKC. One of my neighbors is a good example. Guy is a doctor with a very successful practice, and he decides to open a new cajun restaurant in the city. I told him, “Hey, dude, you’re going to lose your ass on this deal.” And he opened it anyway. From what I hear, business has been absolutely terrible and they aren’t even close to making the thing cash flow. They even resorted to Groupons, it is so bad. So yea, I think there are a large number of wealthy folks seeking to diversify away from an expensive stock market by lighting big barrels of money on fire in the restaurant business. A bunch of regular Hal Smiths, if you will.
This. The metro can support more new restaurants. I don't think we are anywhere close to critical mass. I'm not involved in the business, but I do seem to remember someone who was saying that you needed enough cash or credit to run in the red for at least 2 years. Seems like many of these places aren't even lasting 6 months.
barrettd 01-14-2020, 09:57 AM I still regret never getting over to Maples. Oh well.
CloudDeckMedia 01-14-2020, 10:07 AM This. The metro can support more new restaurants. I don't think we are anywhere close to critical mass. I'm not involved in the business, but I do seem to remember someone who was saying that you needed enough cash or credit to run in the red for at least 2 years. Seems like many of these places aren't even lasting 6 months.
We're near saturation because owners find it increasingly difficult to hire good employees. Your two year cash reserve methodology is also incorrect - working capital is never as simple as "X months" or "Y years."
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