^^^Because parking is like crack. How do you get off crack? You stop taking it. Unfortunately your body still craves crack as it has adapted itself to need it. It will really hurt for a while because your body needs crack to function properly but eventually your body re-adjusts and that insatiable need lessens and lessens until you don't need it any more. However, if you keep taking crack, you find that you need more and more of it until you eventually die.

You completely dodged the issue with your wise cracks.

Not everyone can or wants to live downtown. This lot can be useful long term. Even as a spill over from OMNI. Or VIP for OMNI. Or new park events. Lots of things. I fail to see all the validity of complaints that parking is ruining our utopia. Ample and easy parking encourages more folks to come and spend money downtown.

^^I guess you don't understand my analogy. I understand your perspective and know that what you are saying is true for many if not most in this city. My point is that the reason this is the case is because of how bad our land use has been over the past 60-70 years. Parking is required because we've built our city that way. But parking in and of itself has no value (are the most famous cities in the world famous for ample parking?) other than to serve the terrible land use that has literally torn our city apart and made us less financially sustainable over the long term. My analogy to crack stands because a body can't function without it in the same way that our city can't function without parking. It's much easier to take more crack than it is to go to rehab and it's much easier to continue to build parking than it is to try to reverse the trend. We need to be focusing on alternate modes of transportation rather than just mindlessly building more parking. (edited to provide more explanation. Sorry to derail the thread somewhat)

The design is terrible imo.
15224
The bucks just recently completed this beer garden. The factor that people think the surface lot is a good idea is crazy to me. I don’t understand the design, I don’t understand the parking lot. And knowing there is a massive sculpture across the street makes me not understand why there is another giant one here. It’s all hilarious and in my opinion a joke of a proposal

Maybe with some tweaks. As Rover has posted the sculpture seems repetitive, and the TIF request is way unacceptable. These guys already have all the big bucks, not everyone who comes to the city with their hand out needs to have tax dollars slapped down in it.

On the other hand, given Pete's quote about the traveling show requirements, the parking is endurable given what it potentially enables.

Ample and easy parking encourages more folks to come and spend money downtown.

Yikes

From the proposal:

If that is a legit need then I could get on board with the parking lot.

From the proposal:

This seems absurd on its face. Not only am I skeptical that's *the* reason they don't come here, but but even if it were, we're going to endorse ****ty urban land use so we can attract U2? Give me a break. Plenty of other major bands/solo acts have found a solution to the supposed lack of parking for their equipment trailers. Beyonce, Carrie Underwood, Toby Keith, Garth Brooks, Jay-Z all seemed to make it work somehow (Garth Brooks had a massive, multi-day production). That justification is using our inferiority complex to their advantage.

Point blank: the parking is terrible land use and could be put to a much more productive, better urban use. It's almost embarrassing how some in our city cannot conceive a world without gobs of surface parking.

It's almost embarrassing how some in our city cannot conceive a world without gobs of surface parking.

100% agree. Its really embarrassing. Almost makes you wonder if people even get out of this state, or better yet the South, to see how major cities handle parking.

I think we get less stadium concerts than Tulsa due to Thunder blacking out large amount of dates for CHK, less due to parking for their production.

We've had and continue to have plenty of concerts with complex and extensive production that have figured out parking.

This seems absurd on its face. Not only am I skeptical that's *the* reason they don't come here, but but even if it were, we're going to endorse ****ty urban land use so we can attract U2? Give me a break. Plenty of other major bands/solo acts have found a solution to the supposed lack of parking for their equipment trailers. Beyonce, Carrie Underwood, Toby Keith, Garth Brooks, Jay-Z all seemed to make it work somehow (Garth Brooks had a massive, multi-day production). That justification is using our inferiority complex to their advantage.

Point blank: the parking is terrible land use and could be put to a much more productive, better urban use. It's almost embarrassing how some in our city cannot conceive a world without gobs of surface parking.

To be fair, most of them either (a) own oil and gas companies or (b) own considerable interests in oil and gas wells that flow many barrels per day. These folks have a STRONG vested interest in creating a city that favors the ICE powered automobile over almost any other consideration.

And I think Exhibit A is the Street Car. It is more of a toy train than a legitimate form of public transportation, and that is because the powers that be have no real interest in fostering public transport.

Betcha they sale the 70 spots on thunder games for at least $30 bucks per spot. $86,100 per season not including other events. Plus, you know the Thunder will lease out the space for food operators and alcohol sales. Hell of a deal. $1.25mm for land plus a $1.55mm dollar hand out and great revenue potential! I’m all in! We should give em 3mm just to ensure this a success. SARCASM

You completely dodged the issue with your wise cracks.

Not everyone can or wants to live downtown. This lot can be useful long term. Even as a spill over from OMNI. Or VIP for OMNI. Or new park events. Lots of things. I fail to see all the validity of complaints that parking is ruining our utopia. Ample and easy parking encourages more folks to come and spend money downtown.

There is a parking garage immediately north of this proposal, on the east side of the 'Peake. There will also be a large parking garage literally across the street, just behind Boulevard Place. Only slightly further away, immediately west of the railroad viaduct, is a 100-ish space surface parking lot - and then a much larger surface parking lot immediately east of the tracks. There are also huge surface parking lots immediately west of the 'Peake. There's already ample and easy parking very close by, with more on the way. The parking lot in this project is superfluous and totally unnecessary for public parking. Even the Omni VIP parking argument doesn't work - the Omni has an underground parking level for valet parking. The justification for it that Pete posted (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=44579&p=1070629#post1070629) (from the actual submitted proposal) is the only real actual need I can see for it, to be honest with you, but even then I don't think many shows tour with that many semis worth of stuff. I'm also slightly surprised that those semis couldn't be parked on one of the aforementioned lots, after they were unloaded at the underground docks in the arena. Maybe they want more security for their semis, but that surface lot won't honestly provide much of that - and with the new configuration of this area thanks to the Boulevard, that lot would have to be pretty big to accommodate 16-18 semis.

I think we get less stadium concerts than Tulsa due to Thunder blacking out large amount of dates for CHK, less due to parking for their production.

We've had and continue to have plenty of concerts with complex and extensive production that have figured out parking.

That we get less concerts is a myth

If that is a legit need then I could get on board with the parking lot.

I don't know if the concert trailer reason is legit or not, but I highly doubt this is really about parking. 60 spaces is nothing really and the Thunder can easily afford parking nearby. I think this is intended to replace the current Thunder Alley that happens on Reno and they want space in reserve.

Sounded good until I read that Randy Hogan was involved!! Not impressed with anything he's had his hands on.

To be fair, most of them either (a) own oil and gas companies or (b) own considerable interests in oil and gas wells that flow many barrels per day. These folks have a STRONG vested interest in creating a city that favors the ICE powered automobile over almost any other consideration.

And I think Exhibit A is the Street Car. It is more of a toy train than a legitimate form of public transportation, and that is because the powers that be have no real interest in fostering public transport.

The same powers that be are pushing the regional transit district

And the streetcar is the last mile route of that system.

So if this parking for concerts is an arena issue, wouldnt this be an OKC and SMG problem and not something thats included in this plan? Why would Thunder and Hogan care about the one night a year when a few trucks need to park for a concert? Seems like the city should take care of that. And the new convention center wont now have room for several semis?

I have the feeling this will become the new owner/VIP parking for all games and thats why its included.

One more thing, we dont need to give them $1.5 million so we can have competing orb statues.

So they want the city to give them this land plus $250,000. Pass.

Since the Thunder want it, it will pass with flying colors. Doubt there will be a no in the room. Yay...

So if this parking for concerts is an arena issue, wouldnt this be an OKC and SMG problem and not something thats included in this plan? Why would Thunder and Hogan care about the one night a year when a few trucks need to park for a concert? Seems like the city should take care of that. And the new convention center wont now have room for several semis?

I have the feeling this will become the new owner/VIP parking for all games and thats why its included.

One more thing, we dont need to give them $1.5 million so we can have competing orb statues.

Seconded re the statues. Gonna look very weird catty corner from the Orb at Scissortail.

The same powers that be are pushing the regional transit district

And the streetcar is the last mile route of that system.

Not exactly. The Streetcar was designed by committee with input from professional transit planners. Urban Pioneer can explain that process at length. As for the RTA: ACOG - the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments, the Metropolitan Planning Organization for this region in Oklahoma - is leading that push; soon the Regional Transit Authority of Central Oklahoma will be it's own separate organization. The board that runs RTACO is comprised of representatives selected from each member city.

If we needed that parking lot to facilitate concerts and large shows, why didn't the city jump on the chance when it came into our possession?

I get the strong feeling this is more to this.

Although we have questions about the 70 space surface parking; the surface parking could eventually be replaced with a project. Don't know if we'll be able to savage the 947 spots for parking underneath the Cox cc once it's demolished.

To give $1.5 million in TIF for a $10.5 million project (10% +) isn't too bad considering the 36% investment incentive ($85.4 million) we paid for the Omni not to mention a potential 865-space, $30-$40 million parking garage; yes these are two different projects.

Upon reading above posts, what seems to be the glaring turn offs are the name 'Hogan' & surface parking.

The idea that tours go to Tulsa instead of OKC because of surface parking is ridiculous, there is far more surface parking adjacent to Chesapeake Arena than the BOK. The BOK will close 3rd Street for big events, but there's no reason that streets can't be closed if needed in Oklahoma City. And you cannot begin to fit 16 trucks in 70 automobile parking spaces.

One thing that helped get U2 to Tulsa, and other tours as well, is that Tulsa doesn't have a NBA or NHL team and the act can book a solid week or more in Tulsa leading up to the concert date. A number of tours, including U2, started in Tulsa and did dress rehearsals at the BOK. Roger Waters also did this, I think Fleetwood Mac did it, as well as others.

^^^Because parking is like crack. How do you get off crack? You stop taking it. Unfortunately your body still craves crack as it has adapted itself to need it. It will really hurt for a while because your body needs crack to function properly but eventually your body re-adjusts and that insatiable need lessens and lessens until you don't need it any more. However, if you keep taking crack, you find that you need more and more of it until you eventually die.
That is a ridiculous analogy and though I understand what it alludes to, it’s not a good one. So what is your proposal? To stop building parking entirely downtown? Or you want to slowly “ween” people off it to force them into a lifestyle they may not want to live or suffer the consequences of lack of parking downtown.

Oh, and Tulsa does get more concerts.

The BOK ranked 47th in the world with 382,205 concert tickets sold in 2018. Chesapeake Arena ranked 97th with 185,682 tickets sold. Less than half as many.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2018/12/2018YearEndWorldwideTicketSalesTop200ArenaVenues_7 02.pdf

The idea that tours go to Tulsa instead of OKC because of surface parking is ridiculous, there is far more surface parking adjacent to Chesapeake Arena than the BOK. The BOK will close 3rd Street for big events, but there's no reason that streets can't be closed if needed in Oklahoma City. And you cannot begin to fit 16 trucks in 70 automobile parking spaces.

One thing that helped get U2 to Tulsa, and other tours as well, is that Tulsa doesn't have a NBA or NHL team and the act can book a solid week or more in Tulsa leading up to the concert date. A number of tours, including U2, started in Tulsa and did dress rehearsals at the BOK. Roger Waters also did this, I think Fleetwood Mac did it, as well as others.

Good point.

I remember prior to OKC obtaining an NBA franchise, The Peake (Ford Center) received similar reviews as the BOK now gets: https://newsok.com/article/1938057/ford-center-makes-list-of-top-concert-venuesbrmagazines-ranking-based-on-ticket-sales?

Tulsa is strategically located to serve both OKC-TUL for concerts; IMO they have more money available to spend on entertainment.

If the lack of parking for trucks is really the reason we are passed over by a handful of events a year, is the only answer really 70 dedicated parking spots for the 360 days a year that trucks wouldn’t use that space?

Or could you have a commons there, a multi-use public space that can hold food trucks, artists, pop-up shops, small concerts, public events, all with an easy access to the road so that for 5-10 days a year it can be closed off to public events and function as a parking slot for semi-trucks and tour busses?

Please also remember SMG has done terrible job with the Peake. Supposedly, the Thunder and city communicated the need for more production prior to awarding them a contract extension and including the new convention center in the deal. They have totally shaken up the management team at the Peake since last fall and the results are starting to show. Look at the shows already announced this year. Lots of activity. I also don’t recall seeing a lot of advertising outside the arena. Like the banners on the Cox promoting Pink and Grande’. The notion that the NBA schedule prevents us from competing for shows is BS. The gross mis management by SMG is he reason and there continued deference to the BOK. Also, OKC has proven to be a dynamic music market that supports shows.

More money for entertainment? We have 300k more people in our MSA. That is BS. 40% of BOK ticket sales come from outside Tulsa.

Or you want to slowly “ween” people off it to force them into a lifestyle they may not want to live or suffer the consequences of lack of parking downtown.

You are right. lets abandon good urban principals and continue to destroy the fabric of our core so its slightly easier for someone from Edmond to park for a Thunder game.

For those advocating for surface parking here. My short answer is simply that urban areas should follow urban design principles. In an area like this, surface parking is not the highest and best use. There is already too much surface parking and an overabundance of parking garages in the vicinity so more parking isn't necessary. There is actually too much of it. Moreover, OKC just invested a massive amount in a streetcar that can allow you to park in a variety of places and still get dropped off right at the arena. I have gone to hundreds of Thunder games, always park in a free spot, and walk to the game. Everyone doesn't have to live in the urban core, but if you want to visit it, you can't expect it to be like the suburbs where you park in front of every place you go. And, there is no way this concert excuse has much to it as I can't imagine these acts supposedly pass up venues around the country because they don't have a semi-truck parking spots next the arena.

What kind of marketing best works for the BOK?
That’s the third prong to our success -- besides ticket sales and hospitality. We’ve worked very hard to outline a large geographic area of fans who travel from Northwest Arkansas, Kansas and Missouri. Our data shows that 41 percent of our ticket buyers come from outside of the Tulsa area for shows. That’s 800,000 visitors a year and 13,000 [hotel] rooms within a 15-minute drive of the arena.

What if the parking lot wasn't the final destination, and say a year later a 5 or 6 story office building were built? Would that be a better use for the corner?

Personally, I like it. I like the basketball and hand. I like the theme. The parking I understand the dislike, but could see where the court side season ticket holders could possibly end up there.

This is a piece of crap project - TIF, Hogan, parking, underwhelming building design, hitting all the low points of how to build in OKC all at once, congrats. So who can we voice our disapproval to? Email addresses, Facebook pages, phone numbers, etc.?

You are right. lets abandon good urban principals and continue to destroy the fabric of our core so its slightly easier for someone from Edmond to park for a Thunder game.
How about we think realistically and not ideally. You can have good urban principles and parking. Personal transportation is the future. Not mass transit. People need a place to park. This isn’t rocket science. This parking lot can be converted to structured or even a ramp to subterranean parking in the future. There’s nothing there. This isn’t a bad project.

I think surface parking means something can be done with that space in the future more easily. I'm OK with that.

Seems to me that the TIF money might be available and they are asking for it. I don't see what is wrong with that. That is how people get money/make money/keep money. If I can get a fully legal deduction on my tax return, am I wrong to ask for it just because I have more money than most people (not me, asking for a friend)?

You are right. lets abandon good urban principals and continue to destroy the fabric of our core so its slightly easier for someone from Edmond to park for a Thunder game.

I have a different opinion on parking lot complaints. It seems we want to be other cities and anything that does’t mimic them is declared anti city or urban failure.

I like our city and its ok to be different. I don’t want to be another cloned city I want to be OKC. We are so spread out and rely on cars to get everywhere. That does not make us a bad city except for those who want to change us into being just another large city. I don’t get all this complaining about parking lots at all. If you like other cities then move there.

The other point is not looking at the now but going forward. Its likely OMNI will protect their parking so no promises of using it especially game or event nights. Cox will be gone with its parking. The new park will need places for visitors to park too. And if we do end up with Soccer/stadium it won’t be too far. The area will grow out and parking will be a premium. Other than charging for Thunder games thats only 41+ nights a year. This will be good alt parking for other big downtown events. I think once park is done and surrounding buildings built out this parking will look like a smart advance planning.

I know some hate the thought of Thunder making money but if one looks at the residual value Thunder have added to growth of our city its enormous. Thunder have added more positive growth value than any other entity we’ve given TIF or other monies too. And we are all gonna complain about 74 parking spots lol.

Do we know if Larry Nichols recused himself from the decision?

I absolutely hate it. What is in the arrowhead? Is that a brewery? I dont really understand just making it a huge bball court. There should be seating and space for a live performer.

I'm not sure I get it, either. The concept makes sense, but strange execution. I don't understand the big bball court either. If it were more like, say, Jones Assembly patio, or the thing the Bucs did, then I'd get it. And is this supposed to replace Reno as where they will do what's now Thunder Alley events, or is it supposed to be an additional alternative to pregame options?

To me, this development makes sense. With the new entrance to the arena being built on the southwest side of the building it makes sense for them to reconfigure Thunder Alley and make it front the boulevard. Purely speculation but this would also keep Reno from being closed during the games right?

Do we know if Larry Nichols recused himself from the decision?

OCURA hasn't voted on this yet.

I love all the people saying things like "that surface parking lot could become something in a few years, it's not so bad".

Yeah it could even become...a bigger surface lot.

Are you guys totally blind to both modern and historical OKC? how many surface lots, throughout ALL of downtown OKC are there? How many have been there for 20 years? 30 years? 70 years? The VAST majority of them are going to be there for another 70 years. We aren't growing THAT fast, and we also don't have that many people ready to invest that kind of money.

Building something new IS NOT EASY. And it's not cheap. I hate the lazy argument of "well, if COULD be something in 10 years". Yeah, well, the time is NOW. $10 million being spent on this right now. If we don't get our voices out right now on this, it's going to be built just like this and the surface lot will be there for all of our lifetimes. This is why we get up in arms about these crappy surface lots in downtown we don't need.

To sit and wait on something like this means to sit and wait 50+ years. You gotta think realistically. How often do we actually get someone dropping money on infill in OKC? It's not that often, even at our height of growth. And not only that, it's only about 4 or 5 people/groups/developers that build new things. And here we have a really cool infill project. Only for about 1/4 of the space to be dedicated parking. That's just awful.

I'd rather give them more TIF for a bigger more built our building, all the way east. There is absolutely no need for parking here.

I love all the people saying things like "that surface parking lot could become something in a few years, it's not so bad".

Yeah it could even become...a bigger surface lot.

Are you guys totally blind to both modern and historical OKC? how many surface lots, throughout ALL of downtown OKC are there? How many have been there for 20 years? 30 years? 70 years? The VAST majority of them are going to be there for another 70 years. We aren't growing THAT fast, and we also don't have that many people ready to invest that kind of money.

Building something new IS NOT EASY. And it's not cheap. I hate the lazy argument of "well, if COULD be something in 10 years". Yeah, well, the time is NOW. $10 million being spent on this right now. If we don't get our voices out right now on this, it's going to be built just like this and the surface lot will be there for all of our lifetimes. This is why we get up in arms about these crappy surface lots in downtown we don't need.

To sit and wait on something like this means to sit and wait 50+ years. You gotta think realistically. How often do we actually get someone dropping money on infill in OKC? It's not that often, even at our height of growth. And not only that, it's only about 4 or 5 people/groups/developers that build new things. And here we have a really cool infill project. Only for about 1/4 of the space to be dedicated parking. That's just awful.

I'd rather give them more TIF for a bigger more built our building, all the way east. There is absolutely no need for parking here.

I love how some people want to spend other peoples money and get mad when the spenders don’t build to the non spenders standards.

Did you know there is a dock right next to the grass there now? No matter what people dream up its not a huge area and is constricted due to need to get trucks to dock. The sliver of land is not square either its a strip between road and dock/arena.

What is this structure exactly? Just a covered patio with food truck outlets?

I love how some people want to spend other peoples money and get mad when the spenders don’t build to the non spenders standards.

Totally agree with this. Except when public land is up for an RFP and they are actually asking for public dollars. Thats when being critical is allowed.


What is this structure exactly? Just a covered patio with food truck outlets?

I've wondered the same. Wish there were more details whats in it. I certainly dont see why it would cost $10 million. At 18,000sf, thats $555 per square foot, and its mostly open air. Perhaps its inflated to make the TIF request not appear to be that big?

I love how some people want to spend other peoples money and get mad when the spenders don’t build to the non spenders standards.

Yeah, these millionaires are asking for TIF money. I hate that too.

The maybe-OKC-can-be-different-from-other-cities-and-build-surface-parking-lots-downtown argument is probably my favorite troll argument in OKCTalk in a while.

Totally agree with this. Except when public land is up for an RFP and they are actually asking for public dollars. Thats when being critical is allowed.



I've wondered the same. Wish there were more details whats in it. I certainly dont see why it would cost $10 million. At 18,000sf, thats $555 per square foot, and its mostly open air. Perhaps its inflated to make the TIF request not appear to be that big?

Of all the MAPS projects building the Peake and acquiring Thunder has had the most bang for the buck by far. Thunder have done more for our growth than practically all other MAPS combined. And we are arguing over 74 parking spots on a sliver of grass.

This is a discussion forum.

If you don't like people debating these types of issues, then you should probably go elsewhere.

Of all the MAPS projects building the Peake and acquiring Thunder has had the most bang for the buck by far. Thunder have done more for our growth than practically all other MAPS combined. And we are arguing over 74 parking spots on a sliver of grass.

So your position is to give millionaires more handouts and build surface parking downtown because... the Thunder have been good for OKC? Not sure I'm following your civic or business rationale here.

I've wondered the same. Wish there were more details whats in it. I certainly dont see why it would cost $10 million. At 18,000sf, thats $555 per square foot, and its mostly open air. Perhaps its inflated to make the TIF request not appear to be that big?

Yeah, I don't see where all the cost of construction is coming from which is where my original questions is stemming from. Looks pretty cheap other than the building closest to the Southwest corner, which I'm not really sure what that building is either. A merchandise fan shop perhaps?

I'm assuming the majority of the cost is for the basketball sculpture. The bean in Millennium Park in Chicago cost $11.5 million.

I have a different opinion on parking lot complaints. It seems we want to be other cities and anything that does’t mimic them is declared anti city or urban failure.

I like our city and its ok to be different. I don’t want to be another cloned city I want to be OKC. We are so spread out and rely on cars to get everywhere. That does not make us a bad city except for those who want to change us into being just another large city. I don’t get all this complaining about parking lots at all. If you like other cities then move there.

The other point is not looking at the now but going forward. Its likely OMNI will protect their parking so no promises of using it especially game or event nights. Cox will be gone with its parking. The new park will need places for visitors to park too. And if we do end up with Soccer/stadium it won’t be too far. The area will grow out and parking will be a premium. Other than charging for Thunder games thats only 41+ nights a year. This will be good alt parking for other big downtown events. I think once park is done and surrounding buildings built out this parking will look like a smart advance planning.

I know some hate the thought of Thunder making money but if one looks at the residual value Thunder have added to growth of our city its enormous. Thunder have added more positive growth value than any other entity we’ve given TIF or other monies too. And we are all gonna complain about 74 parking spots lol.

OKC today is not the same as it was in the 1980s. We are in a different era of urban planning.

Here is the detailed budget from their RFP response:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/thunderalleybudget1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/thunderalleybudget2.jpg

I'm assuming the majority of the cost is for the basketball sculpture. The bean in Millennium Park in Chicago cost $11.5 million.

and there we go the public area cost is at least 1.4 mil and change

with that being the case i have no issue with the TIF


now the parking lot is an entirely different ??

With these two spheres next to each other, I wonder if you were to take a picture at the proper angle if you could frame the Devon Tower in just the right way... Now that I think about it, I'm imagining a whole program... maybe we could call it the OKC Fertility tour. Start at Sack Lack in Scissortail park, head north to the two spherical sculptures, from there observe the proud and erect Devon Tower and finally, finish the tour at the Cock Ring and Shaft. More adventurous tourists can sign up for the extended tour which takes them up to 23rd street to witness the wondrous Clara Luper Columns.

Here is the detailed budget from their RFP response:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/thunderalleybudget1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/thunderalleybudget2.jpg

Parking revenue is part of the business plan...................... sheesh.

I don’t see the big deal about parking? Why are so many against parking here? We are not NYC we are OK. People here drive to events from our wide sprawling city. Some here are not looking long term. Once that whole area is built out parking will be needed. Not all can park at convention. This is close to new park and will make a nice lot to park and take it in.

Don't come into my neighborhood and demand a parking space for yourself on the off chance you may come downtown and i wont go to your neighborhood and demand density and walkability.