Definitely not trying to make excuses as I fully agree with all of the pushback on this, but I wonder if that easement presented design issues re: pushing the building to the front of the street. Obviously a problem that anyone mildly creative could solve, but I could see where a large brand with a very standardized building layout would not want to go through the effort of dealing with that easement and had the developer over the barrel about it.



HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleynorth7.jpg

From the original plans, the easement was supposed to be between two buildings that would keep the utilities/street or whatever it was in place. I think that's where I am disappointed.

I'm guessing Pete is right, the developer is having trouble getting the financing for the project at the density they first envisioned. Selling the north parcel for a free standing restaurant might get thing going. The other consideration is that overall parcel hasn't been urban dense. And isn't going to be. The east is railroad and interstate design highway, the west is single family housing, and the strip north to 23rd is commercial/light industrial.

From the original plans, the easement was supposed to be between two buildings that would keep the utilities/street or whatever it was in place. I think that's where I am disappointed.


Oh yeah for sure and I agree. And that would have been the cleanest approach (I just drove by and they are very low and ugly power lines - would/will likely have to get buried or otherwise changed no matter what goes in here). Just saying that, especially if the suggestions that getting the financing/traction has been difficult are accurate, it's not terribly surprising that what I hope will end up being a high quality restaurant had all the negotiating power it needed (and I doubt much was needed) to dictate that they'd build behind the easement rather than change what I'm guessing is a template design to put something shallow and long in front of the easement. Would have been nice if they would add more landscaping, etc. but hopefully it will be a big enough get that they need all that parking.

I live 2 blocks from here (though I won't by the time this is built) and it would have been great to see this develop as envisioned but would/will still be nice to have what is hopefully a positive addition to the area nearby. But if it's a Chili's; then yes, I will be extra disappointed.

Not that it means anything, but this permit is no longer on the OKC permits website, unless I completely missed it.

Not that it means anything, but this permit is no longer on the OKC permits website, unless I completely missed it.

Probably just realized they needed a few more parking spots and decided to resubmit with a smaller building to accommodate.

I know the situations are different, but this reminds me a bit of the braums at classen circle, and that braums would have been in a much more suburban/car-centric area. Additionally, this is a rumored commuter rail stop as well.

Most of the time, I'd rather have something than nothing in an empty lot. But this location is one of the few exceptions if this is the proposal. But at least it isn't self storage?

The restaurant will indeed be Pappadeaux.

The owner spoke at yesterday's Planning Commission meeting and confirmed they are buying the property.

The restaurant will indeed be Pappadeaux.

The owner spoke at yesterday's Planning Commission meeting and confirmed they are buying the property.WOW! This is awesome news! :)

Are we finally getting a Pappadeaux?


The restaurant will indeed be Pappadeaux.

The owner spoke at yesterday's Planning Commission meeting and confirmed they are buying the property.

19152

What a terrible use of land. Also does not at all seem like a good location for a chain restaurant like this, would not surprise me if it doesn't do that well, would be much better suited somewhere like bricktown that is always full of tourists. Maybe it's just my perception of things but people living in and around downtown don't tend to go to chain restaurants.

What a terrible use of land. Also does not at all seem like a good location for a chain restaurant like this, would not surprise me if it doesn't do that well, would be much better suited somewhere like bricktown that is always full of tourists. Maybe it's just my perception of things but people living in and around downtown don't tend to go to chain restaurants.

The closest locations will be multiple locations in Dallas and then ABQ. So the location closest to people from all of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas will be in OKC.

. Maybe it's just my perception of things but people living in and around downtown don't tend to go to chain restaurants.

garage and mahogany stay pretty empty down town??? bobs steak house???

this will draw people from all over the metro .. and their parking lot will stay full .

Doubt it will make any difference but I sent them a note asking them to redesign / reconsider parking on their contact us page.

https://pappadeaux.com/contact-us/

I think the land use sucks but this place will be packed. I’m interested to see what the development is like next to it. Hopefully not more surface lots.

There was quite a bit of discussion about the site layout among the Planning Commission, a couple of them made the point about the previously approved PUD for the entire project which was dense and fronted Broadway.

But in the end, the large majority approved the rezoning.

As a reminder, the PC only takes a high-level view of rezoning requests and this property falls outside the Downtown Design Review boundaries, otherwise it would have been a much tougher approval process.

I think the land use sucks but this place will be packed. I’m interested to see what the development is like next to it. Hopefully not more surface lots.

The problem as I see it, once the surface lots start - they don’t stop. And with them selling off the lots (as indicated in the Oklahoman article this morning) to individual projects, they will not think of parking holistically, but rather for each of their individual projects.

This whole development will be a massive disappointment. Lower Bricktown 2.0.

What a terrible use of land. Also does not at all seem like a good location for a chain restaurant like this, would not surprise me if it doesn't do that well, would be much better suited somewhere like bricktown that is always full of tourists. Maybe it's just my perception of things but people living in and around downtown don't tend to go to chain restaurants.

LOL. You clearly don’t live in or around downtown nor do you spend much time here.

terrible use of land but it will absolutely be popular.

LOL. You clearly don’t live in or around downtown nor do you spend much time here.

terrible use of land but it will absolutely be popular.

Agreed! A place like this will actually bring the Burbs to downtown. People who live near this will likely go on down times so they don't have to deal with the crowds.

Hopefully this will be finished in time for the Olympics so we can impress the visitors.

They said work will start after the first of the year, along with the new HQ for Guernsey.

There is also residential in the plans.

They have yet to submit a new site plan for the project reflecting all the recent changes.

They said work will start after the first of the year, along with the new HQ for Guernsey.

There is also residential in the plans.

They have yet to submit a new site plan for the project reflecting all the recent changes.

NOLA themed apartments? lol

It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes might be made with respect to Broadway itself between 13th and 23rd Streets as development begins to increase and traffic/pedestrian patterns change accordingly. Currently there are no traffic lights or stop signs on Broadway between 13th and 23rd. The speed limit is 35 mph. It's a four-lane roadway with no turn lanes except at the lights on 13th and 23rd. There are sidewalks along both sides but no crosswalks or crossing lights.

^

Yes, that stretch of Broadway is a speedway.

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I sure the housing and hotel accommodations will be fantastic :053:

NOLA themed apartments? lol

Start collecting beads now!

I would assume they will add a stoplight at Broadway and 16th someday. It is just about halfway between the stoplight at 13th and the sharp curve at 20th. Not to mention it is the last street you can turn into until 23rd. They should also add a small raised median just south of the 23rd intersection to improve traffic control with regards to the Byron’s parking lot.

What a terrible use of land. Also does not at all seem like a good location for a chain restaurant like this, would not surprise me if it doesn't do that well, would be much better suited somewhere like bricktown that is always full of tourists. Maybe it's just my perception of things but people living in and around downtown don't tend to go to chain restaurants.

This sucks in every way.

It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes might be made with respect to Broadway itself between 13th and 23rd Streets as development begins to increase and traffic/pedestrian patterns change accordingly. Currently there are no traffic lights or stop signs on Broadway between 13th and 23rd. The speed limit is 35 mph. It's a four-lane roadway with no turn lanes except at the lights on 13th and 23rd. There are sidewalks along both sides but no crosswalks or crossing lights.

Also, all of the roads between 16th and 23 intersecting with Broadway do not allow you to turn into them and only allow right turns out of them. That was pretty annoying when I lived there. 16th between Robinson and Broadway and robinson between 13th and 16th shouldn't be one way, and the Robinson and 16th intersection needs to be redone.

This sucks in every way.

You aren't allowed to go, simple as that. Now drive by it when it's open and see that it is packed. The vocal minority on here may not go, but it will be full every night, and bring in money like you can't imagine.

Social Media comments are like 80% Positive for this and then you come on here and it is maybe 50% positive. So funny to see the difference.

Social Media comments are like 80% Positive for this and then you come on here and it is maybe 50% positive. So funny to see the difference.

Definitely makes a difference with it being the first location in a new market. Even if they do still plan on the memorial location, its smart to build this location first.

I would assume they will add a stoplight at Broadway and 16th someday. It is just about halfway between the stoplight at 13th and the sharp curve at 20th. Not to mention it is the last street you can turn into until 23rd. They should also add a small raised median just south of the 23rd intersection to improve traffic control with regards to the Byron’s parking lot.

They need to do a road diet. Not even bike lanes just parking is fine since Robinson is slated to get bike lanes eventually. This road never has that much traffic.

A 4 way stop or mini roundabout would do 16th and Broadway just fine and save a lot of money in the long run.

You aren't allowed to go, simple as that. Now drive by it when it's open and see that it is packed. The vocal minority on here may not go, but it will be full every night, and bring in money like you can't imagine.

I dont think anyone is against the restaurant or even that its a chain. I think most people are disappointed in the development style. If this were out on Memorial everyone would be probably be happy.

I think if they were to just push the building to the NW corner so its fronting the road and alleyway it would be much better. I've never been to the chain so I don't know but it might very well need all the parking it can get. But that parking can be pushed to sides. (And maybe in the future redeveloped. As it is now it would be hard to do that with the site plan.)

I dont think anyone is against the restaurant or even that its a chain. I think most people are disappointed in the development style. If this were out on Memorial everyone would be probably be happy.

I think if they were to just push the building to the NW corner so its fronting the road and alleyway it would be much better. I've never been to the chain so I don't know but it might very well need all the parking it can get. But that parking can be pushed to sides. (And maybe in the future redeveloped. As it is now it would be hard to do that with the site plan.)

Got to love the polarized world we live in. Everything has to be one way or another.

I think if they were to just push the building to the NW corner so its fronting the road and alleyway it would be much better. I've never been to the chain so I don't know but it might very well need all the parking it can get. But that parking can be pushed to sides. (And maybe in the future redeveloped. As it is now it would be hard to do that with the site plan.)

This makes sense - and therefore not likely to happen. We know what "right looks like" and the current site plan isn't it for an urban environment. Jose's compromise idea seems perfectly logical.

Got to love the polarized world we live in. Everything has to be one way or another.

Could you be more dramatic without saying anything of substance? Again, most people here agree that Pappadeaux will be a fine addition to the area. However, the site plan does not fit the area and easily could do so. Most of us could live with surface parking as long as the building fronted Broadway and had good street interaction. It's really the bare minimum. Suburban design has a deleterious effect on urban environments. OKC is 90+% suburban design. It's okay to want to have good, urban design in the urban areas. This is widely understood in cities around the world.

You aren't allowed to go, simple as that. Now drive by it when it's open and see that it is packed. The vocal minority on here may not go, but it will be full every night, and bring in money like you can't imagine.

They are of course free to propose whatever they can get approved, and will allow them to maximize the value of their investment, but I believe the restaurant should not be surrounded by 300 spaces of surface level parking like its a Costco at the corner of 16th and Broadway.

Terrible use of space

I could care less what it looks like. All I know is I'm one step closer to "pasta Mardi Gras" and a "purple voodoo" ��

One positive is that it will draw tons of people to the broader development... Assuming there will be other restaurants and retailers.

And maybe it will help kick-start The Hub across the street?

One positive is that it will draw tons of people to the broader development... Assuming there will be other restaurants and retailers.

And maybe it will help kick-start The Hub across the street?

That may be the underlying reason for going this route honestly.

I dont think anyone is against the restaurant or even that its a chain. I think most people are disappointed in the development style. If this were out on Memorial everyone would be probably be happy.

I think if they were to just push the building to the NW corner so its fronting the road and alleyway it would be much better. I've never been to the chain so I don't know but it might very well need all the parking it can get. But that parking can be pushed to sides. (And maybe in the future redeveloped. As it is now it would be hard to do that with the site plan.)

I would even be okay with this in Bricktown given the way that area has developed outside of the west end. But this area is just a strange location. It’s near a handful of industrial complexes with a development planned that looks like it is attempting to be designed at a human scale and be relatively walkable. I’ve never been to Pappadeaux, but I’ve heard good things about it, so I’ve always been excited about them eventually entering the market since they’ve been kicking the idea around for nearly a decade, but the location, design, and development it’s supposed to be part of (not sure if this is officially part of the development or its own separate location) just takes all the air out of my excitement for it. Like some have said, it’ll be popular either way and I don’t know how/why that is the go-to response to critiques of any poorly designed layout in the urban core, but it just leaves a lot to be desired for an otherwise solid entry into the Oklahoma City market.

And maybe it will help kick-start The Hub across the street?

I completely forgot about that development.

I don't see this area as ever being "downtown". It is a car accessible area that doesn't, and won't, have density on the east or west. Probably not much from the south. I think the State Capitol complex is going to be a big driver of customers, and they are going to be "real" drivers.

I recall the lot has been barren for 35 years. Maybe more. If it were easy, it would have been done already.

LOL. You clearly don’t live in or around downtown nor do you spend much time here.

terrible use of land but it will absolutely be popular.

Lived downtown for 10+ years and now Mesta Park for the last 3 so been around for a lot of development. When I initially moved here downtown was a ghost town outside of business hours, so yes I've spent most of my time downtown/midtown in the past decade more than I would imagine most people here.

Point was it would be much better suited somewhere else as it has been designed as other comments have mentioned. If the goal is bringing in people from the suburbs it's not even an ideal intersection location for that. I don't doubt it will be packed for awhile but we'll see how long the novelty of a new restaurant in town lasts.

I have no comments on the restaurant or the parking. Maybe it could be more urban but it will probably stay busy. The issue I have is, why are we giving TIF or assistance to this development for things like a Pappadeaux's? If so, why dont we also give financial assistance to developers along Memorial Rd, or Portland who are developing chain restaurants? Just because someone pays a lot for some land doesnt mean OKC should be handing out TIF money to make it work.

I have no comments on the restaurant or the parking. Maybe it could be more urban but it will probably stay busy. The issue I have is, why are we giving TIF or assistance to this development for things like a Pappadeaux's? If so, why dont we also give financial assistance to developers along Memorial Rd, or Portland who are developing chain restaurants? Just because someone pays a lot for some land doesnt mean OKC should be handing out TIF money to make it work.

Has the owner requested TIF assistance?

Has the owner requested TIF assistance?

Earlier in this thread its mentioned that $4.5 million in assistance was either asked for or given.

Like I always say, TIF or financial assistance in downtown OKC largely serves to keep property values higher than they should, and it rewards some speculative owners. There are some exceptions (Skirvin, FNB) but if some piece of ground or some old warehouse is for sale, the price should reflect what it costs to (re)develop that property. The price shouldnt reflect what the city will also give the buyer. You shouldnt get a premium price for a vacant, crumbling, contaminated property just because its downtown.

Earlier in this thread its mentioned that $4.5 million in assistance was either asked for or given.

Like I always say, TIF or financial assistance in downtown OKC largely serves to keep property values higher than they should, and it rewards some speculative owners. There are some exceptions (Skirvin, FNB) but if some piece of ground or some old warehouse is for sale, the price should reflect what it costs to (re)develop that property. The price shouldnt reflect what the city will also give the buyer. You shouldnt get a premium price for a vacant, crumbling, contaminated property just because its downtown.

If I remember correctly, that was for the entire development, not just this restaurant. If there is no need to move utilities, ROW's, etc, then I agree, not TIF needs to be given for this. If we are talking about the rest of the development, I think these are going to be two different builders/developers/owners. So, I doubt that would be asked for.

Could you be more dramatic without saying anything of substance? Again, most people here agree that Pappadeaux will be a fine addition to the area. However, the site plan does not fit the area and easily could do so. Most of us could live with surface parking as long as the building fronted Broadway and had good street interaction. It's really the bare minimum. Suburban design has a deleterious effect on urban environments. OKC is 90+% suburban design. It's okay to want to have good, urban design in the urban areas. This is widely understood in cities around the world.

Clearly, I need to take your advice and elaborate. I agree with the sentiment of your post and the one I responded to. With discussions that take place these days, if you don't completely 'bend the knee' and 100% fully support that position then your the enemy. The response to the original site plan was overwhelminly negative, but as soon as the name "Pappadeaux' was attached, opinions became more mixed.

Clearly, I need to take your advice and elaborate. I agree with the sentiment of your post and the one I responded to. With discussions that take place these days, if you don't completely 'bend the knee' and 100% fully support that position then your the enemy. The response to the original site plan was overwhelminly negative, but as soon as the name "Pappadeaux' was attached, opinions became more mixed.

I appreciate the response. I would contend that the OKCTalk crowd, largely due to Pete and the moderators here, is very reasonable and deals well in evidence and nuance. Posters here are pretty respectful of different perspectives as long as they're informed and thoughtful. That's why I responded as I did, but I'm not trying to hate. There's a lot of echo chamber, partisan zombie rhetoric online. I just don't think that's what's happening here. Cheers to more good conversation!

I have no comments on the restaurant or the parking. Maybe it could be more urban but it will probably stay busy. The issue I have is, why are we giving TIF or assistance to this development for things like a Pappadeaux's? If so, why dont we also give financial assistance to developers along Memorial Rd, or Portland who are developing chain restaurants? Just because someone pays a lot for some land doesnt mean OKC should be handing out TIF money to make it work.

It also doesn't make sense to hand out any "incentives" unconditionally. If TIF was awarded based on another concept and that concept gets changed, the TIF should be reconsidered. I'm not sure if that's the exact case in this specific situation, but but awarding TIF without effective design review requirements just seems reckless to me, not to mention it undermines the original intent of TIF, which has pretty much entirely been lost at this point.

It also doesn't make sense to hand our any "incentives" unconditionally. If TIF was awarded based on another concept and that concept gets changed, the TIF should be reconsidered. I'm not sure if that's the exact case in this specific situation, but but awarding TIF without effective design review requirements just seems reckless to me, not to mention it undermines the original intent of TIF, which has pretty much entirely been lost at this point.

There is NO DESIGN DISTRICT this project is under. So you can't arbitrarily require something that doesn't apply to this project. Unless you want OKC to be sued (and lose).

There is NO DESIGN DISTRICT this project is under. So you can't arbitrarily require something that doesn't apply to this project. Unless you want OKC to be sued (and lose).

I KNOW this. That was THE point.

I KNOW this. That was THE point.

So TIF should only be given to projects under some design review committee? Seems a bit unfair, and elitist, to me. But what do I know.

It seems like everyone is getting too focused on the layout and missing a key point.

Pappadeaux’s, after years of searching, has chosen a location at 13th & Broadway near the downtown core. They had plenty of other options outside the core—places like Memorial Road, The Oak, The Half, Moore, or Norman—but they settled on this undeveloped parcel for a standalone location. This is a major national brand, and their choice speaks volumes. Too often, I’ve seen local businesses open in “ideal” urban spots, only to fail within six months to a year because they didn’t account for practical business considerations, like parking and accessibility.

The economics here dictate the amount of surface parking. As the land becomes more valuable, we’ll naturally see more urban developments take shape. But for now, the fact that Pappadeaux’s picked this location highlights the revitalization of our core, and it shows their confidence in its growth. If they find success here, other brands will take note and start paying higher prices for land, which will ultimately lead to better use of space.

I’m not sure what cities we’re being compared to, but even in Dallas, there’s plenty of surface parking downtown.

People are focused on the layout because the layout is bad.

There is NO DESIGN DISTRICT this project is under. So you can't arbitrarily require something that doesn't apply to this project. Unless you want OKC to be sued (and lose).

This site is under the authority of the DDRC. It will require approval by them. They can require that the building be pushed against Broadway, and they should.

This site is under the authority of the DDRC. It will require approval by them. They can require that the building be pushed against Broadway, and they should.
According to the map, it doesnt look like it is iinside a district controlled area.
https://www.okc.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/18968/637304216011870000

This site is under the authority of the DDRC. It will require approval by them. They can require that the building be pushed against Broadway, and they should.

You said it with such confidence, too!

As has been mentioned, there is no design district for this area. Lol.