Also, as a golfer, the wind gets super old in Oklahoma.

I agree 100% with what Brian said above but I have a long standing mantra as a golfer and fisherman in Oklahoma.... If you don't fish or golf in the wind in Oklahoma. You don't fish or golf.

I agree with most of these and can relate. Like I said in an earlier post, if you've never lived anywhere else I would definitely recommend it. It really helps give perspective even if you eventually move back.

Good advice, I'd say wherever you live it's always good to experience living in a new place for a couple years at least. Even better if you can live in a different country or at least travel extensively outside the U.S.

I think for me when it comes to weather the wind is what makes it seem more extreme then what it is. It’s one thing to be cold. It’s another thing when there is wind like we have here. Same goes when it’s nice outside but ruined by the wind. I think if we had less wind the temperatures overall wouldn’t seem so drastic at times.

I agree 100% with what Brian said above but I have a long standing mantra as a golfer and fisherman in Oklahoma.... If you don't fish or golf in the wind in Oklahoma. You don't fish or golf.

Ha! Amen to that. You have to adapt to be able to fish in this state. Like to bass fish? Buy a big trolling motor! Like to troll for striper/hybrids? Buy a pontoon boat and wind drift the entire lake!

I've been put in a couple of seemingly bad situations on the water because of the wind. Having to run in the trough with a 30 mph wind blowing across the bow with kids in the boat is pretty sketchy. The other time, I was kayak fishing in a small creek off a lake. It was nice and calm back there. A storm blew up nearby and when I paddled out, the outflow from the storm was so strong that I could barely paddle against it. That was pretty scary. Yeah, the wind gets tiresome....really, really tiresome.

I think for me when it comes to weather the wind is what makes it seem more extreme then what it is. It’s one thing to be cold. It’s another thing when there is wind like we have here. Same goes when it’s nice outside but ruined by the wind. I think if we had less wind the temperatures overall wouldn’t seem so drastic at times.

I agree and would say this year has been especially bad. Temperatures have been much colder than normal consistently and it's been windy. I can't really remember another winter around here where it has been as consistently as cold as it has been this year. During most winters there is nicer weather between cold snaps.

You know what nobody has mentioned yet?

ALLERGIES!!!

I was born here, and I still struggle with allergies. It freaking blows!! My favorite is when we have a strong south wind that blows in all the pollen and dirt/dust from texas, and within a day or two we get a strong cold front which blows all that crap back across the state. Yep. I've had some pretty bad sinus infections here...

I've been put in a couple of seemingly bad situations on the water because of the wind..

Yep. Made a couple of rough runs across Konawa due to One More Cast Syndrome but the sketchiest thing I’ve ever attempted was last spring at Mountain Lake. Made a launch just as a front was coming in. We had about 3” of water in the bottom of the two man by the time we made it behind an island. It was the first time I’ve ever questioned my decision to put a boat on the water but turned out to be a great day of fishing.

Where's Plutonic Panda? This is their thread! Unless they never lived here?

I was gonna say this. If someone can point out somewhere in the US, much less the world, where this isn't true please tell me an I'll move there. Even some of the most liberal states in the US have extreme race and LGBTQ issues.

To all who say "no biggie, they're everywhere" - yeah, I'm not stupid, I know this very well, but I don't see any other states' or countries' people being touted as the "nicest anywhere, ready to help anybody anywhere, do anything for anybody", yet still be hugely racist and homophobic (and even xenophobic) underneath all that wonderful niceness and helpfulness and have that nastiness basically ignored. Two-faced doesn't work for me, and it gets old.

There are racists and homophobic folks everywhere. Oklahoma does not OWN the market in this regard.
I feel like Oklahoma has more racist people than other states do.

I feel like Oklahoma has more racist people than other states do.

You've never been to Mississippi then.

To all who say "no biggie, they're everywhere" - yeah, I'm not stupid, I know this very well, but I don't see any other states' or countries' people being touted as the "nicest anywhere, ready to help anybody anywhere, do anything for anybody", yet still be hugely racist and homophobic (and even xenophobic) underneath all that wonderful niceness and helpfulness and have that nastiness basically ignored. Two-faced doesn't work for me, and it gets old.

One, I wouldn't say no biggie. But I would argue that the two groups don't necessarily overlap. I grew up in Edmond and never saw a KKK rally or a Confederate flag, until I worked in Moore on a Friday night on 12th Street. It was shocking to me to see a rally of trucks up and down the street. And to other folks I knew. And that's telling. Most people aren't like that. And when you go to a place like NYC or Chicago or Portland or Philadelphia where the blatant racists make east Texas seem tolerant it really gets shocking. Then go to Europe, especially parts of the UK and you see what racist really is (France is amazingly bad). No place is perfect but I'm happy here.

You've never been to Mississippi then.

Or most New England states.

To all who say "no biggie, they're everywhere" - yeah, I'm not stupid, I know this very well, but I don't see any other states' or countries' people being touted as the "nicest anywhere, ready to help anybody anywhere, do anything for anybody", yet still be hugely racist and homophobic (and even xenophobic) underneath all that wonderful niceness and helpfulness and have that nastiness basically ignored. Two-faced doesn't work for me, and it gets old.

Yawn. You're just making **** up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/28/the-most-racist-places-in-america-according-to-google/?utm_term=.c882f2808d9b
https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/most-racist-states-twitter/1419178

One, I wouldn't say no biggie. But I would argue that the two groups don't necessarily overlap. I grew up in Edmond and never saw a KKK rally or a Confederate flag, until I worked in Moore on a Friday night on 12th Street. It was shocking to me to see a rally of trucks up and down the street. And to other folks I knew. And that's telling. Most people aren't like that. And when you go to a place like NYC or Chicago or Portland or Philadelphia where the blatant racists make east Texas seem tolerant it really gets shocking. Then go to Europe, especially parts of the UK and you see what racist really is (France is amazingly bad). No place is perfect but I'm happy here.

Lived and worked in Chicago and the west burbs for 12 years, and the racism I saw there was almost non-existent compared to OKC.

Yawn. You're just making **** up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/28/the-most-racist-places-in-america-according-to-google/?utm_term=.c882f2808d9b
https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/most-racist-states-twitter/1419178

You're moving the goalposts - quote me where I said OK was "one of the most racist states". I said it was about the hypocrisy of OK having the nicest people in the world (hyperbole alert) , yet they're horribly, hugely, incredibly racist (and let's not forget xeno/homophobic).

Lived and worked in Chicago and the west burbs for 12 years, and the racism I saw there was almost non-existent compared to OKC.

I guess it depends where you were at. It was so overt and out there it shocked me. I learned more racial slurs than I knew existed. And the black Baptists up there were so homophobic it was nuts. I guess I can give them credit for being honest.

You're moving the goalposts - quote me where I said OK was "one of the most racist states". I said it was about the hypocrisy of OK having the nicest people in the world (hyperbole alert) , yet they're horribly, hugely, incredibly racist (and let's not forget xeno/homophobic).

It's implied in what you said. If the people are as "horrible" as you make them out to be, Oklahoma should, in fact, be one of the most racist states.

But almost all empirical studies show that to be false.

To all who say "no biggie, they're everywhere" - yeah, I'm not stupid, I know this very well, but I don't see any other states' or countries' people being touted as the "nicest anywhere, ready to help anybody anywhere, do anything for anybody", yet still be hugely racist and homophobic (and even xenophobic) underneath all that wonderful niceness and helpfulness and have that nastiness basically ignored. Two-faced doesn't work for me, and it gets old.

Seriously? Tejas is literally the Caddo for "friends" and Texas touts it's friendlieness and also led the nation in the number of anti-LGBTQ bills proposed in the last legislative session. If you and Plutonic Panda think Oklahoma is winning the bigotted pissing contest than at least support your claims with some evidence. And, if you know me, I absolutely agree Oklahoma has serious discrimination issues to address (including towards Indigenous peoples whom the state uses in its advertising), but these problems are not unique to Oklahoma at all.

Discrimination is everywhere and certainly more severe in certain places. We should start a new thread to address that and discuss how to make a difference.

Seriously? Tejas is literally the Caddo for "friends" and Texas touts it's friendlieness and also led the nation in the number of anti-LGBTQ bills proposed in the last legislative session. If you and Plutonic Panda think Oklahoma is winning the bigotted pissing contest than at least support your claims with some evidence. And, if you know me, I absolutely agree Oklahoma has serious discrimination issues to address (including towards Indigenous peoples whom the state uses in its advertising), but these problems are not unique to Oklahoma at all.

Discrimination is everywhere and certainly more severe in certain places. We should start a new thread to address that and discuss how to make a difference.

Haven't lived in or spent any long amount of time in TX, so don't have any "evidence" about that, which is why I didn't compare OK to TX. There are threads about discrimination already, it's not going to get fixed in our lifetimes, especially in this nasty political environment (watched a bit of a documentary about Harvey Milk and thought "wow, we haven't advanced very much at all, those images could be from yesterday" even though we have made *some* progress). My "evidence" is all the people I've interacted with over the years here, in Chicago, in Seattle, in Indiana, in Milwaukee, so it's personal anecdotes, which is inadmissible, so I've said my piece and won't go any further with it.

Seriously? Tejas is literally the Caddo for "friends" and Texas touts it's friendlieness and also led the nation in the number of anti-LGBTQ bills proposed in the last legislative session. If you and Plutonic Panda think Oklahoma is winning the bigotted pissing contest than at least support your claims with some evidence. And, if you know me, I absolutely agree Oklahoma has serious discrimination issues to address (including towards Indigenous peoples whom the state uses in its advertising), but these problems are not unique to Oklahoma at all.

Discrimination is everywhere and certainly more severe in certain places. We should start a new thread to address that and discuss how to make a difference.

In 2016 though Oklahoma had the most anti-LGBT bills ever proposed in any state; more than all other states that year. You are right in that these problems aren't unique to Oklahoma. It's pretty much the same culture across the entire Bible Belt, from the Texas panhandle to South Carolina. However, I do think some of them are more pronounced in Oklahoma simply because this state doesn't have a strong progressive voice at the statehouse to help moderate things. Oklahoma is lucky to have great grassroots activist organizations like Freedom Oklahoma. If it wasn't for them, it would be much worse.

In 2016 though Oklahoma had the most anti-LGBT bills ever proposed in any state; more than all other states combined. You are right in that these problems aren't unique to Oklahoma. It's pretty much the same culture across the entire Bible Belt, from the Texas panhandle to South Carolina. However, I do think some of them are more pronounced in Oklahoma simply because this state doesn't have a strong progressive voice at the statehouse to help moderate things. Oklahoma is lucky to have great grassroots activist organizations like Freedom Oklahoma. If it wasn't for them, it would be much worse.

Can you provide some links to support this claim? My understanding is that Oklahoma didn't even have as many anti-LGBTQ bills as Texas did this last session, much less more than every state combined (which doesn't pass the smell test).

Can you provide some links to support this claim? My understanding is that Oklahoma didn't even have as many anti-LGBTQ bills as Texas did this last session, much less more than every state combined (which doesn't pass the smell test).

That was the 2016 session. I believe in 2017 Texas may have had more. Sally Kern having been term-limited was a huge help as she was the author of several every year. Here is a link.

https://thinkprogress.org/oklahoma-sets-new-record-for-attempts-to-discriminate-against-lgbt-people-8f24d927bbe2/

https://www.hrc.org/blog/slate-of-hate-oklahoma-leads-the-nation-in-number-of-appalling-bills-attack

But deep down, they can still be incredibly racist and homophobic (personal experience from speaking with a lot of "nice" people (co-workers, etc., not friends because I don't count as friends people that are racist and homophobic) here).
*Edit* Nevermind, this has already been addressed so no need for further comment.

That was the 2016 session. I believe in 2017 Texas may have had more. Sally Kern having been term-limited was a huge help as she was the author of several every year. Here is a link.

https://thinkprogress.org/oklahoma-sets-new-record-for-attempts-to-discriminate-against-lgbt-people-8f24d927bbe2/

https://www.hrc.org/blog/slate-of-hate-oklahoma-leads-the-nation-in-number-of-appalling-bills-attack

Yes, I remember these bills. They were an embarrassment. But, you claimed that Oklahoma had "more [anti-LGBTQ bills] than all other states combined." The second article you provided actually disproved your point in saying there were "26 bills" in Oklahoma and the "HRC is currently tracking over 100 anti-LGBT bills in 26 states." I agree with your stance that Oklahoma's legislature has been a source of anti-LGBTQ bigotry and it's embarrassing and unacceptable.

My point is, there are a lot of unsuported and untrue claims in this thread. Can we quit throwing out absurd, untrue claims and take a bit more time to write our posts so we can proceed with an informed deliberation? Pete and Urbanized have been modeling how to do this for years. In this day and age, we desperately need more citizens who can construct arguments without hyperbole and exageration.

Yes, I remember these bills. They were an embarrassment. But, you claimed that Oklahoma had "more [anti-LGBTQ bills] than all other states combined." The second article you provided actually disproved your point in saying there were "26 bills" in Oklahoma and the "HRC is currently tracking over 100 anti-LGBT bills in 26 states." I agree with your stance that Oklahoma's legislature has been a source of anti-LGBTQ bigotry and it's embarrassing and unacceptable.

My point is, there are a lot of unsuported and untrue claims in this thread. Can we quit throwing out absurd, untrue claims and take a bit more time to write our posts so we can proceed with an informed deliberation? Pete and Urbanized have been modeling how to do this for years. In this day and age, we desperately need more citizens who can construct arguments without hyperbole and exageration.

I corrected it. I do remember an article that stated that Oklahoma had more anti-LGBT bills than all other states combined that year. However, it may have been saying more than all states combined the previous year or something like that. Anyways, I fixed it.

...

My point is, there are a lot of unsuported and untrue claims in this thread. Can we quit throwing out absurd, untrue claims and take a bit more time to write our posts so we can proceed with an informed deliberation? Pete and Urbanized have been modeling how to do this for years. In this day and age, we desperately need more citizens who can construct arguments without hyperbole and exageration.

I pretty much said my claims were personal anecdotes, and are definitely not untrue, unsupported, or absurd, just needed to insert a viewpoint that wasn't being addressed. As far as informed deliberation, I wish racism and homo/xenophobia could be addressed and solved on a message board, but it ain't gonna be...

It's pretty much like the viewpoint that OK's low cost of living is so beneficial and fantastic, when in reality it's not that true - rent, groceries, retail, vehicles all pretty much cost the same as other places. Gasoline is lower, *some* housing is lower, not totally sure about utilities, but I think some are higher and some lower than other states. Everybody in OK is friendly and nice is also not that true, and I had to dispute that like I dispute the "it costs so much less to live in OK" line.

I pretty much said my claims were personal anecdotes, and are definitely not untrue, unsupported, or absurd, just needed to insert a viewpoint that wasn't being addressed. As far as informed deliberation, I wish racism and homo/xenophobia could be addressed and solved on a message board, but it ain't gonna be...

I apologize if I dismissed personal anecdotes that were presented as such. Those are an important part of the conversation and we don't need national surveys to discuss bigotry. My issue was more with the comments, "Oklahoma is the most racist state or most anti-LGBTQ state." Generalizable statements like those are the ones that require some evidence and derail conversations unnecessarily. Anyway, there's no question Oklahoma has plenty of work to do.

And, I actually think places like OKCTalk can be places where conversations about change push forward larger efforts at change. It's happened on a number of issues.

I'm going to jump and most likely be torn apart for what I say. I am a conservative. I am also Catholic and I vote my faith and practice my faith. I believe the LBGT ect is a sinfull life style. I cannot in good consence support it. With that said I do not hate anyone of any faith or belief or color or national origine. I may not agree with their choices but I do not hate. I do however follow the teachings of my faith. I have friend is other parts of the country as well as the world meaning on every continent but Antartica. ( my cousin spent sometime there a long time ago) I live in Edmond but I do not see any hate for people of other faiths or other colors, nationalities etc. I do believe there is lots wrong with this state. Some are things everyone can agree on. ex low teacher pay, needing more deverse jobs, issue related to growth. I don't think Lbgt or other issues are what hampers are our state. Its deeper and has to do with money issues. I'm thinking of moving out of state but its for different reasons. Its I don't have family in this state. Lack of things to do that I am interested in. and a few others that don't directly relate to the above talked about issues. (like not the best state for having a home fruit orchard)

It's interesting how this thread has developed...

I'm going to jump and most likely be torn apart for what I say. I am a conservative. I am also Catholic and I vote my faith and practice my faith. I believe the LBGT ect is a sinfull life style. I cannot in good consence support it.

Honest question. I know you said you don't support LGBT rights personally. Do you believe that generally the government should pass laws based on your personal religious beliefs to restrict the rights of other individuals? In other words, do you believe in theocracy? Just curious how you'd answer those questions.

In 2016 though Oklahoma had the most anti-LGBT bills ever proposed in any state; more than all other states that year. You are right in that these problems aren't unique to Oklahoma. It's pretty much the same culture across the entire Bible Belt, from the Texas panhandle to South Carolina. However, I do think some of them are more pronounced in Oklahoma simply because this state doesn't have a strong progressive voice at the statehouse to help moderate things. Oklahoma is lucky to have great grassroots activist organizations like Freedom Oklahoma. If it wasn't for them, it would be much worse.

We are lucky to have Freedom Oklahoma who does tirelessly advocacy, and this is by no means a defense of our legislature, but almost all those anti-LGBT bills are authored by the same few extreme right-wingers (Kern, Brecheen, Silk, Bennett). Now, one could make the argument that Oklahomans kept/keeps electing them back into office, and that other states don't have any of these types of legislators, but I think the distinction matters. If it weren't for a few of the nutjobs, it's not like Oklahoma would become a progressive haven, but we very likely wouldn't lead the way in these anti-LGBT bills.

dan, I am personally a monarchist. I would support a Catholic monarchy. My father was a guard in the pre WW 2 Yugoslav royal household guard. Yah, monarchy is in the family. My dad came here to escape the communists (communist=firing squad)

dan, I am personally a monarchist. I would support a Catholic monarchy. My father was a guard in the pre WW 2 Yugoslav royal household guard. Yah, monarchy is in the family. My dad came here to escape the communists (communist=firing squad)

Welp, that is not the response I was expecting. I have too many questions. I don't know where to start and this thread is already way off the topic.

Seriously? Tejas is literally the Caddo for "friends" and Texas touts it's friendlieness and also led the nation in the number of anti-LGBTQ bills proposed in the last legislative session. If you and Plutonic Panda think Oklahoma is winning the bigotted pissing contest than at least support your claims with some evidence. And, if you know me, I absolutely agree Oklahoma has serious discrimination issues to address (including towards Indigenous peoples whom the state uses in its advertising), but these problems are not unique to Oklahoma at all.

Discrimination is everywhere and certainly more severe in certain places. We should start a new thread to address that and discuss how to make a difference.You can hide behind figures and numbers all day long but Oklahoma has a bad stereotype for racism and it is deserved.

I'm going to jump and most likely be torn apart for what I say. I am a conservative. I am also Catholic and I vote my faith and practice my faith. I believe the LBGT ect is a sinfull life style. I cannot in good consence support it. With that said I do not hate anyone of any faith or belief or color or national origine. I may not agree with their choices but I do not hate. I do however follow the teachings of my faith. I have friend is other parts of the country as well as the world meaning on every continent but Antartica. ( my cousin spent sometime there a long time ago) I live in Edmond but I do not see any hate for people of other faiths or other colors, nationalities etc. I do believe there is lots wrong with this state. Some are things everyone can agree on. ex low teacher pay, needing more deverse jobs, issue related to growth. I don't think Lbgt or other issues are what hampers are our state. Its deeper and has to do with money issues. I'm thinking of moving out of state but its for different reasons. Its I don't have family in this state. Lack of things to do that I am interested in. and a few others that don't directly relate to the above talked about issues. (like not the best state for having a home fruit orchard)

I respect people’s beliefs. But what I don’t respect is when people are hypocrites and judge others. Doesn’t the Bible say somewhere thou shall not judge? What people do as long as it doesn’t hurt or negatively affect others should be between them and god. Not a government that wants to judge them and tell what they’re doing isn’t okay. Any amount of consenting adults should do what they want with their bodies.

You can hide behind figures and numbers all day long but Oklahoma has a bad stereotype for racism and it is deserved.

Are you responding to the correct poster? I don't see any connection between my post and your response. What do you mean by "hide behind figures and numbers"? More specifically, where do you think I'm hiding and from what do you think I'm hiding from?

I think you've misunderstood all my posts.

You can hide behind figures and numbers all day long but Oklahoma has a bad stereotype for racism and it is deserved.

Wrong. Go hang out in Memphis for a few days, and you'll see a place where racism truly exists.

As for Oklahoma -- not so much.

Wrong. Go hang out in Memphis for a few days, and you'll see a place where racism truly exists.

As for Oklahoma -- not so much.

True racism exists in Oklahoma too. There's plenty of specific studies, large scale data, and stories to verify that. I've seen deep, hateful racism during my life in Oklahoma.

Again, my problem actually is everyone pointing to the place they think racism is worst based on an article they skimmed or an anecdotal experience. My only critique in this thread actually was the unsupported generalizing arguments that were claiming where racism or anti-LGBTQ bigotry is worse.

In other words, my problem earlier in this thread was more with the clarity of arguments and using supporting evidence appropriatley than anything. Sorry, I write a lot and teach writing so it was bugging me.

Honest question. I know you said you don't support LGBT rights personally. Do you believe that generally the government should pass laws based on your personal religious beliefs to restrict the rights of other individuals? In other words, do you believe in theocracy? Just curious how you'd answer those questions.

Not the original poster here, but I'll throw in my stance and personal history. Personally, I'm very socially conservative and a lot of my personal values and ideals are influenced by my religious belief. I do still think homosexuality is a sin, same as sex outside of marriage, that children do best in a home with both parents, that abortion is bad, drugs are bad, being a drunk is bad, etc etc etc.

Back when I was a teenager it was a pretty easy thing to look at the world and think "if God says so, then that's good enough for me and everybody should follow what God says". In 2000 I voted for Bush, and in 2004 I voted in favor of the Constitutional Amendment to ban Same Sex Marriage in Oklahoma. During that time it was also easy for me to brush off concerns about the health of a mother during pregnancy as a reason for an abortion because "she knew the risks when she had sex". It was pretty easy to have a simple black-and-white outlook on life as a teenager who thought he had all the answers.

Since then I've matured, socially, politically, as well as spiritually. My thoughts about "what is a sin" has not changed much, but my thoughts about "how do I interact with sin and exist in a sinful world" has changed dramatically and my views on the role of both religion and law has really evolved. I have fully embraced the idea of "to God what is God, and to Ceasar what is Ceasar" and I believe that every secular authority exists with authority given by God even if the authority doesn't promote any godly ideals. I also believe that when religion and government mix, religion usually ends up getting transformed by politics and not the other way around. Look at how evangelicals have embraced candidates in total opposition to their social ideals as a prime example.

In secular terms it means that I vote for the candidates and issues that further my ideal society and values, but which function within the confines of the constitution. And frequently the first criteria that leads me to avoid a lot of politicians is if they campaign on "because the Bible says so" issues. The Bible may say "homosexuality is a sin", God may say "homosexuality is a sin", any theological arguments about "is homosexuality a sin or not" are irrelevant to me at that point because the sticking point for me is "that's great, but the Constitution says we don't have an official religion" and "it says people have the same rights as others". So it doesn't matter what "I" think is a sin, it matters what the Constitution says the law should be, and if someone I may agree with wants to make something a policy because "God says so" I will not vote for them. I know that this is exactly the thing I did 14 years ago, but I have come to really regret that vote and I am sorry for the pain and suffering I have caused to many people with my vote. Sure there are social issues that I consider Biblical such as "care for the poor", "be a good steward of nature", "be kind to refugees in another land", and I vote in favor of candidates that promote these values. But I don't consider issues such as those as a means to force religion onto others and I don't think they restrict the way people might lead their lives.

On a theological issue I have come to realize that passing "Biblical" laws and forcing others do act "godly" doesn't really do anything for anyone in any spiritual way. Sure we can make every sin illegal, and maybe we would end up with a country where not a single person commits any kind of sin, but there is a stark difference between people "not sinning" and people "knowing God". We had a time in history where Biblical laws reigned supreme, it was called Israel. And God wasn't able to make people follow his laws, so what makes us think we are going to do any better than Him? One of the central lessons of the Old Testament, if not the only lesson, is that you can't just "act good" by following a bunch of laws because it's impossible to never break any of them. So passing a law that says "don't marry gays" or "don't have abortions" doesn't make people "good Christians". I am distinctly Lutheran in that regard, and I firmly believe that works do not save people, but that they are an outpouring of an already existing salvation.

If given the choice, I would rather pick a secular country where all matter of sin is legal and where people are free to follow God out of their own choice over any country where people are required by law to act godly without any personal relationship with God. For me that means that I will focus on advocating for the rights of all, continue to promote and defend our Constitution, struggle with my own sins, and focus on my own spiritual journey and relationship with God. I will vote for people that have more in common with my ideals, even if there are areas where I disagree with them. I think that a Catholic guide in the past put it best by stating: "It is okay to vote for a candidate that supports abortion or same-sex marriage, as long as the reason why you are voting for them is not because they support abortion or same-sex marriage."

My final "same sex marriage" anecdote is this: when the Defense of Marriage Act was finally struck down in the Supreme Court I was working at a job for the federal government. One of my coworkers and friends was gay and had been in a very long term relationship, but they had not married because while it was already legal in a few states it had no practical effects on them either in Oklahoma or at the Federal level. A day or two after the ruling I checked my email at the beginning of my shift and we got an email from the Office of Personnel Management basically saying "well, the law is struck down, so every married employee now qualifies for all the same benefits. If you are in a same sex marriage we will let you enroll your spouse at this time". I remember printing out that email, handing it to him, watching him read the message, and I could see the realization in his eyes that he could get his health insurance to his partner who has been self-employed and on an expensive plan until then. And honestly, even though I had already changed my personal views and gotten on the "make marriage legal for all" wagon at that point, I really didn't realize just how much pain I had caused my friend by voting to take something away from him all those years ago until the moment he read that message.

This was long and rambling, and I'm not sure where I am going with this, but here it is...

Not the original poster here, but I'll throw in my stance and personal history. Personally, I'm very socially conservative and a lot of my personal values and ideals are influenced by my religious belief. I do still think homosexuality is a sin, same as sex outside of marriage, that children do best in a home with both parents, that abortion is bad, drugs are bad, being a drunk is bad, etc etc etc.

Back when I was a teenager it was a pretty easy thing to look at the world and think "if God says so, then that's good enough for me and everybody should follow what God says". In 2000 I voted for Bush, and in 2004 I voted in favor of the Constitutional Amendment to ban Same Sex Marriage in Oklahoma. During that time it was also easy for me to brush off concerns about the health of a mother during pregnancy as a reason for an abortion because "she knew the risks when she had sex". It was pretty easy to have a simple black-and-white outlook on life as a teenager who thought he had all the answers.

Since then I've matured, socially, politically, as well as spiritually. My thoughts about "what is a sin" has not changed much, but my thoughts about "how do I interact with sin and exist in a sinful world" has changed dramatically and my views on the role of both religion and law has really evolved. I have fully embraced the idea of "to God what is God, and to Ceasar what is Ceasar" and I believe that every secular authority exists with authority given by God even if the authority doesn't promote any godly ideals. I also believe that when religion and government mix, religion usually ends up getting transformed by politics and not the other way around. Look at how evangelicals have embraced candidates in total opposition to their social ideals as a prime example.

In secular terms it means that I vote for the candidates and issues that further my ideal society and values, but which function within the confines of the constitution. And frequently the first criteria that leads me to avoid a lot of politicians is if they campaign on "because the Bible says so" issues. The Bible may say "homosexuality is a sin", God may say "homosexuality is a sin", any theological arguments about "is homosexuality a sin or not" are irrelevant to me at that point because the sticking point for me is "that's great, but the Constitution says we don't have an official religion" and "it says people have the same rights as others". So it doesn't matter what "I" think is a sin, it matters what the Constitution says the law should be, and if someone I may agree with wants to make something a policy because "God says so" I will not vote for them. I know that this is exactly the thing I did 14 years ago, but I have come to really regret that vote and I am sorry for the pain and suffering I have caused to many people with my vote. Sure there are social issues that I consider Biblical such as "care for the poor", "be a good steward of nature", "be kind to refugees in another land", and I vote in favor of candidates that promote these values. But I don't consider issues such as those as a means to force religion onto others and I don't think they restrict the way people might lead their lives.

On a theological issue I have come to realize that passing "Biblical" laws and forcing others do act "godly" doesn't really do anything for anyone in any spiritual way. Sure we can make every sin illegal, and maybe we would end up with a country where not a single person commits any kind of sin, but there is a stark difference between people "not sinning" and people "knowing God". We had a time in history where Biblical laws reigned supreme, it was called Israel. And God wasn't able to make people follow his laws, so what makes us think we are going to do any better than Him? One of the central lessons of the Old Testament, if not the only lesson, is that you can't just "act good" by following a bunch of laws because it's impossible to never break any of them. So passing a law that says "don't marry gays" or "don't have abortions" doesn't make people "good Christians". I am distinctly Lutheran in that regard, and I firmly believe that works do not save people, but that they are an outpouring of an already existing salvation.

If given the choice, I would rather pick a secular country where all matter of sin is legal and where people are free to follow God out of their own choice over any country where people are required by law to act godly without any personal relationship with God. For me that means that I will focus on advocating for the rights of all, continue to promote and defend our Constitution, struggle with my own sins, and focus on my own spiritual journey and relationship with God. I will vote for people that have more in common with my ideals, even if there are areas where I disagree with them. I think that a Catholic guide in the past put it best by stating: "It is okay to vote for a candidate that supports abortion or same-sex marriage, as long as the reason why you are voting for them is not because they support abortion or same-sex marriage."

My final "same sex marriage" anecdote is this: when the Defense of Marriage Act was finally struck down in the Supreme Court I was working at a job for the federal government. One of my coworkers and friends was gay and had been in a very long term relationship, but they had not married because while it was already legal in a few states it had no practical effects on them either in Oklahoma or at the Federal level. A day or two after the ruling I checked my email at the beginning of my shift and we got an email from the Office of Personnel Management basically saying "well, the law is struck down, so every married employee now qualifies for all the same benefits. If you are in a same sex marriage we will let you enroll your spouse at this time". I remember printing out that email, handing it to him, watching him read the message, and I could see the realization in his eyes that he could get his health insurance to his partner who has been self-employed and on an expensive plan until then. And honestly, even though I had already changed my personal views and gotten on the "make marriage legal for all" wagon at that point, I really didn't realize just how much pain I had caused my friend by voting to take something away from him all those years ago until the moment he read that message.

This was long and rambling, and I'm not sure where I am going with this, but here it is...

I've been saving my 1000th post for a special occasion, not knowing what it would be, but telling you how beautiful your post is is worth it and much more.

Yep, great post, thanks for sharing that. I sooooooooooooooooooooo wish more people thought like you did!

Are you responding to the correct poster? I don't see any connection between my post and your response. What do you mean by "hide behind figures and numbers"? More specifically, where do you think I'm hiding and from what do you think I'm hiding from?

I think you've misunderstood all my posts.Sorry. I didn’t mean to come off like that. But what I am saying is I have seen my fair share of racism out in California. It is prevalent along white males out here more so than people would think. Especially in the high desert and OC. But in Oklahoma it seems to be so many people that are like that.

As I've pointed out in the past, I moved here from Ohio in September, 2013. I can't stand long and cold winters so the climate drew me here along with my passion for storm chasing as well as the superior economy. What do I miss about Ohio? A park I used to walk at a lot, and a few friends and family. Not much else. I don't miss dealing with 3-5 feet of snow every year, summers that for the most part weren't very warm, and driving around seeing abandoned building after abandoned building. Nothing was happening in the city I'm from in regards to development. There would be a newspaper article about he newest gas station. Big whoop! There are more houses built in Oklahoma City every year than were probably built in the entire county I'm from. Because of freeze-thaw, the roads were terrible and it seems every year the state and cities were doing less to improve it. The only real gripe I have with Oklahoma is the budget issue as well as education. But just because it's a red state doesn't mean that's the cause of the education issues. Public education is failing nationwide; both red and blue states. I think some people let things that don't really affect them get to them more than they should.

Hey d-usa...thanks for putting all of my thoughts into writing for me :)

seriously, if I knew it wouldn't start a firestorm with some of my inlaws I'd copy and paste that on facebook

You're moving the goalposts - quote me where I said OK was "one of the most racist states". I said it was about the hypocrisy of OK having the nicest people in the world (hyperbole alert) , yet they're horribly, hugely, incredibly racist (and let's not forget xeno/homophobic).

An example of how Oklahomans are racist against Native Americans: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/ginniegraham/ginnie-graham-years-after-single-mom-got-years-for-selling/article_c2c70a1b-46aa-5598-8459-dc7b55b87f7e.html

Very honest and authentic post, d-usa. Props.

Hey d-usa...thanks for putting all of my thoughts into writing for me :)

seriously, if I knew it wouldn't start a firestorm with some of my inlaws I'd copy and paste that on facebook

Seconded

An example of how Oklahomans are racist against Native Americans: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/ginniegraham/ginnie-graham-years-after-single-mom-got-years-for-selling/article_c2c70a1b-46aa-5598-8459-dc7b55b87f7e.html
Her actions rather than her ethnicity resulted in her experience.

Her actions rather than her ethnicity resulted in her experience.

So you think this sentence was justified? If not, then why do think it happened?

Looking into this, it seems like it's more complicated than "she is native american". One, she was busted selling drugs with her kids in the house. Twice by an undercover officer. This made the crime a little higher on the scale. Two, she was offered a 2 year plea deal and passed on it. Three, she was only sentenced for 10 years, but when she showed up for incarceration, she was carrying more drugs.

Now, we can discuss if marijuana should be legal on another thread. But I imagine race or sex had no bearing on this sentencing, and probably fell under current (at the time) sentencing guidelines).

Oh, and she evidently still only served two years. My white cousin spent more time in jail for marijuana.

^^^
Certainly does not fully explain the sentencing, but partially does.

There are a number of studies that suggest that race does influence sentencing.

I mean, drug sentencing in general is nuts, and certainly needs to change. And it seems like folks all over the political spectrum are changing their minds on this. I just think it was a gross over-simplification. I'm sure race 'can' have an effect, although I've not seen much about native americans getting harsher sentences. Typically its african americans.

The real tragedy is in Oklahoma, people are getting 10+ year sentences for something that is legal in a neighboring state. And for what?

Mandatory minimum drug sentencing guidelines I expect.

I have a little less guilt about dealers than I do about users though.

Dang, d-usa. Post of the year so far.

The real tragedy is in Oklahoma, people are getting 10+ year sentences for something that is legal in a neighboring state. And for what?

Surely, most people who get such long prison terms over drugs get it shortened, especially if first felony. Patrica Spottedcrow initially got 12 years and had to stay only a little over 2 years.

Oklahomans tolerated its prohibition of alcohol with it being legal in neighboring states for a long time, until it was legalized in 1959. That helps explain why people like you think Oklahoma still has a long time to go before it legalizes rec. marijuana.

Oklahomans tolerated its prohibition of alcohol with it being legal in neighboring states for a long time, until it was legalized in 1959. That helps explain why people like you think Oklahoma still has a long time to go before it legalizes rec. marijuana.

Yeah I think Oklahoma is still decades away from recreational marijuana and I base that assumption on the fact that Oklahoma is one of the last states to come around on social issues and repealing blue laws. Tattoos weren't even legal here until 2006. However, I do think within the next five years at least one state immediately bordering Oklahoma will go fully legal and my bet is on Missouri. Arkansas will legalize after that. Texas and Kansas are still a ways off but both will likely go fully legal before Oklahoma. Oklahoma will be very fortunate if the medical marijuana statute passes and the legislature doesn't decide to overturn the will of the people. I will definitely be voting for SQ 788 but I have a gut feeling that it won't really matter if it passes or not.

Do you consider Colorado a bordering state?

OK has more of a border with CO than MO